Jimquisition: Fake Nerd Girls

[Canadamus Prime]

It would seem to me that such girls would be fairly obvious thus the 3rd degree would be unnecessary.

You'd think but then it's done to all kinds of people and walks of life its not specific to gaming some people are just damn good at faking interest in people. Also remember the moment you question their authenticity these days you have the wave of white knights hitting you for daring to ask or question it, so even if they are fake many people just don't want the hassle of having to fight off all the white knights so will just back down in an attempt to avoid being labelled by the white knights as a Sexist pig who deserves to receive death threats etc.

But where are the white knights? Because unless I misunderstood the video, the issue is people coming down on the supposed "Fake Nerd Girls" or rather real nerd girls are being accused of being fake.

 

[Strain42]

When I was in high school, I considered myself a Gamer. It was a pretty big part of who I was, and it was something I took pride in calling myself.

Now that I'm older and I see stuff like this...I'm at the point now where I almost get offended if someone calls me a gamer. Because not only are video games a fairly miniscule part of my life, and I'm not fond of people just assuming that's all I'm about but...

I mean come on, after some of the immature crap gamers pull, I fail to understand why anyone would WANT to be associated with them.

"I was bullied when I was a kid for playing video games, and now it's not fair that all these new people can just jump in and enjoy games without having to go through the same stuff I did!"

Seriously, shut up. Look, I know the feeling. I was bullied as a kid for playing Pokemon. I honestly can't tell you how many times some bully yanked the cartridge out of my gameboy and threw it because he thought it would be funny.

But why hold a grudge? Instead of being angry that other people are playing video games now without all the bullying, why not just be...y'know...HAPPY that video games are becoming a bigger part of mainstream culture. Be happy that something you love and enjoy is maturing into something that everyone can enjoy.

Don't be some elitist prick who tries to act like another human being doesn't deserve to enjoy the same hobby as you just because they didn't waste their money at the arcade or ever have to fix their SNES by blowing into the cartridges...and even more important, don't just naturally assume that someone DIDN'T do those things just because they have breasts.

Gamers have become petty, snobby, and rather pathetic over the past few years. (obviously I'm speaking generally, not saying this applies to everyone)

I still play video games now and then, I still enjoy video games...but seriously, don't call me a gamer. I'd rather not be associated with some of the crap they pull.

 

[Prosis]

The point that Jim's making isn't that "Fake Girl Gamers" don't exist.

His point is that nobody ever calls people out on "Fake Guy Gamers." Only women come under that scrutiny. Somehow, being male means that you're automatically in on the gamer club. There's a huge number of Male Let's Play'ers who play a game not because they enjoy it, but because it gets them high ratings (Let's Play Happy Wheels, an absolute waste of time if I've ever seen one, comes to mind). Nobody ever calls these guys out on being fake gamers. They're still considered to be gamers, even if they're only playing the stupidest games for the stupidest of reasons.

However, if you're a girl who admits to liking Starcraft? Hoo boy, you better be ready to pony up some solid facts that you are in fact a gamer, and not just a wannabe.

Also, enough with the "A lot of the girls who work at conventions aren't actually gamers, and its wrong." Well no kidding sherlock. A job is a job. It's money. Show me one person who is absolutely in love with their job at McDonalds or Walmart. Severe passion is not a requirement for a job, even at conventions. You think the booth babes should be passionate about video games? Take it up with their bosses. Companies think a pretty smile will bring more gamers to their booth than someone who is passionate about the game. And as long as you continue to support that belief, that's what they'll continue to do. Don't razz on people just for trying to make a living or pursue a career in who-really-cares-what.

 

[Lieju]

How about we treat everybody nice and fairly, regardless of gender? I don't recall anybody arguing that this basic standard of etiquette should only be applied to females. It's just the normal consideration of others, expected of people living in a society.

racism isnt to be tolerated and same goes for sexism. The target is no matter, but how often do you find racism against whites? Or sexism against men?

Sexism against men? Like, you know, guys claiming gaming culture is a male thing and that a part of it is being a jerk and calling people juvenile names? Assuming men are all rude manchildren? That if they care about things like feminism it must be because they just want to get laid? That all they want from a game are boobs and explosions?
Booth babes are freaking sexist towards men!

Sexism goes both ways, and the things and attitudes that are harmful to women also limit men and how comfortable they feel doing things.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

But where are the white knights? Because unless I misunderstood the video, the issue is people coming down on the supposed "Fake Nerd Girls" or rather real nerd girls are being accused of being fake.

probably still surrounding Ms Sarkeesian as she wasn't a gamer really until it suited her.

What I'm saying is the destructoid guy who said Felicia day was useless was wrong.
However it wasn't right for the Army of Wil Wheaton (Wil Wheaton defending a friend was ok even if a bit stupid as it wasn't going to stay on the personal level due to his followers etc) to jump the guy in quite such spectacular style. I mean death threats and calling for the guy to never be allowed to work in media again ? that's not helping the issue. If they did care they'd be more interested in pointing out what the person had done and not calling for the persons head

When was the last time you heard anything about Ms. Sarkeesian? 'Cause I haven't heard anything from her in ages. Probably because I get most of my new from this site, but whatever.

Why haven't I heard about either of those things? I knew Wil Wheaton had made a few statements but I didn't know he had received death threats or anything. ...not that that surprises me any. It seems few people on the Internet know how to properly address issues they feel strongly about and resort to lashing out like a pack of rabid chimpanzees. ...except that would be an insult to rabid chimpanzees.

 

[Entitled]

Instead of being angry that other people are playing video games now without all the bullying, why not just be...y'know...HAPPY that video games are becoming a bigger part of mainstream culture. Be happy that something you love and enjoy is maturing into something that everyone can enjoy.

...

Gamers have become petty, snobby, and rather pathetic over the past few years. (obviously I'm speaking generally, not saying this applies to everyone)

I still play video games now and then, I still enjoy video games...but seriously, don't call me a gamer. I'd rather not be associated with some of the crap they pull.

This seems to be contradictory. First, you say that anyone playing video games should be considered part of the gamer hobby.

Then you distance yourself from the term "gamer", applying it specifically to the hardcore forum debater elitists who hate casuals.

If you truly believe that al th hundreds of millions of people who ever enjoyed a video game should be called gamers, then it should be obvious that only a very small fringe of these gamers are elitists.

But you identify them "generally" as "petty, snobby, and rather pathetic", thus you are just setting up an exclusive definition. Even if you place yourself outside of it.

Ironically, that's pretty similar to the point that the elitists themselves are making, even if they are using different terminology:

We are the true nerds, the kind of people who debate all night on a forum about the definition of nerdiness, the ones who are so obsessed with their hobbies that we would rather make an ass out of ourself defending our connection to it, than to appear as a well-adjusted person.

They, the attractive ones, the popular ones, are just casually looking into games because they are popular enough right now. We are so irrational that we would keep gaming if we would be the last person doing so, while they are just acting normal.

We are arrogant extremists. They are moderate and mainstream.

And then, they, the popular people, the mature people, the nice people, socially well-adjusted people, decided to also take our subculture's coating, because it happens to be hip at the moment. Thy say "Oh, I play CoD, I'm such a nerd!" ignoring all the effort, obsessiveness, hatefulness, misanthropy, and creepiness that we poured into creating the nerd subculture. They think that they can just steal the label for their own purposes!

They think so perfectly reasonably.

And that just makes them all the more offensive.

 

[acosn]

No, you're not a nerd for reading a book (to say nothing of Harry Potter). No, you're not a nerd for playing a video game for 2 hours a week. No, your thick rimmed glasses, which you don't even need, and the pocket protector don't make you a nerd.

So, what does make someone an authentic nerd, and what makes that label so important?

It's not about what makes a nerd so much as what makes one not a nerd. The first is hard to define, the second is very, very easy.

So, what are these obvious things that disqualify one from nerd-hood?

It seems a lot of people in this thread are using overly narrow definitions. Nerds come in all shapes, sizes and types. Someone might be a nerd about physics, who has never read a comic book or played a video game. Some people are nerds about steam trains. Do you think that guy writing his PhD on 18th Century Russian Literature isn't a nerd?

Also, I reject the notion suggested by others that a nerd has to be a social outcast. There are plenty of nerds who have good social skills and are attractive. There are even nerds who are also athletes. Nerdiness is not something that should be judged by appearance. I work with a lot of Professors, and they are some of the nerdiest people you'll ever meet - but they can get as many women as they like, because they are witty conversationalists who can talk all night about any number of fascinating topics you may never have heard of.

I think the most important factor to being a nerd is a curious, inquisitive mind, followed by deep interests and knowledge thereof. But mainly the intellectual curiosity.

I guess what I'm saying is don't judge people based on first impressions, or whether their knowledge matches your particular nerd interests. That "fake nerd girl" that's dismissed because she's just a good-looking casual gamer might also be a brilliant computer programmer, or an archaeologist, or whatever. Most adults who are secure in their nerdy ways usually don't feel the need to constantly prove themselves, or go around waving their resume to prove how smart they are.

You don't get it.

The bar is set low and these people the internet scorn can't even meet it.

We're talking about the ads that are obviously half baked because it features four women apparently having the time of their lives playing a console that isn't even plugged in. Or the woman proclaiming that she is such a nerd for having logged two hours of actual game time in the last month.

While there's no bar set on what quantifies a nerd, its rather obvious when someone claims to be mildly obsessed with something, when they're really just not. Its disingenuous, and miss-represents the person. And yes, the term does mean to an extent, that you are a social out cast. That's the cut between simply being smart or bright, and being a nerd. Generally the term "nerd" is associated with people who are so entirely devoted to their hobby, interest, what have you, that they'll neglect eating, social lives, and even person hygiene.

So no, your Phd candidate probably isn't one- if they're reasonably normal they'll look back on this time as that maddening race for that piece of paper. The folks that can jump between esoteric context relevant discourse and normal social interaction like its a flip of a switch aren't really nerds. But don't worry, that's a thinly veiled compliment.

 

[jmarquiso]

It's one thing if I can go up to one of these supposed "fake nerd" girls, and we can actually hold a discussion about the Atari 2600's impact on modern gaming citing specific examples (or something similar)... if you can do that, you're a nerd in my book.

How often do you even see that conversation happen? I was playin' Star Raiders on the Atari 400, son. I go to some pretty in-depth gaming sites and blogs. You know how often I've seen a conversation about the "Atari 2600's impact on modern gaming?" Certainly not here in the Escapist forums. And rarely outside of an article on Gamasutra. The very statement is pretentious*.

But then, in some peoples' book I'd be a fake gamer, too.

*As an aside I could go off on how the Star Raiders design did not go on to influence modern gaming, when it should have. Despite its DNA being found in Elite, Wing Commander, and the like, but completely gone by the time we get Mass Effect.

 

[Phasmal]

The main difference between the booth babe and the fake nerd girl is the booth babe doesn't so actively choose to exploit people as essentially someone else is paying her and someone else is reaping the rewards while with the fake nerd girl, they are making the decision and they are trying to reap the rewards

Yeah but...
WHAT REWARDS?
Attention?
So what?

Look, I would understand a dude being upset if maybe he'd gone out with someone who was `pretending` to be a nerd and then later when they were dating found out she wasn't and only pretended to be to get with him BUT just random people wearing shirts of shit they may not actually be into but might find cool DOESN'T HURT ANYONE!
(This is why I STILL don't have a Batman shirt- because I haven't read enough of the comics or watched enough of the movies or carved `Bruce Wayne` into my fucking leg).

Mostly the times I see guys being upset is because they think they have found a magical gamer girl unicorn to date and then she turns out to be a bit of a noob. Or just has a boyfriend.

 

[Therumancer]

I rarely agree this much with him. Seriously, why would anyone get upset over a person being so desperate for your attention that she pretends to like what you do just to get attention? It seems like a strange thing to get upset over, but I don't know.

You, like Jim, miss the point entirely. It's not girls wanting to fit in or being "desperate for your attention" it's girls out to manipulate nerds, either for their own ends, or being paid to do so by someone else (like in the case of booth babes and the like).

I wrote a more detailed answer (phrased to aim it directly at Jim) earlier, but I imagine it was too long for a lot of people, and also not what they'd want to hear.

I'm sure this happens to you all the time so it's a really big deal, but having never seen someone I can't see this being widespread.

Of course manipulation of anyone is a problem, but are those who pretend to like games any different than any other kind of manipulation? Why is it specific focus on those who pretend to like games rather than those who manipulate in any other way?

Now if you say they are no different, explain why you draw a line separating those. Why is it fake nerd girls rather than manipulative behaviour in full that gets you riled up?

Well, manipulative behavior riles most people when you get down to it. The whole "fake nerd girl" thing is simply a kind of manipulative behavior, which is why it gets such strong, negative responses. My problem is that it needs to be understood as a manipulative behavior in order to understand the reaction.

As far as I go, my direct experience has been seeing some pretty solid guilds ripped apart by this kind of thing, and otherwise viewing the damage in various internet communities. For the most part I don't deal with it myself since my internet persona is pretty bloody unapproachable and not especially well liked (even if not hated). You might of course also realize at this point there are reasons why I carry myself the way I do.

In the first post I wrote I went into more detail, but let's just say there was an issue with this kind of thing before it wound up on the radar of sites like The Escapist and commentators like Jim. The whole chan-inspired "Tits or GTFO" is pretty much in response to the "faux nerd girl", rather than just being a matter of general sexism. It basically coming down to the stereotype of some cute girl coming into fringe culture, flirting, and then showing her boobs for gifts (even if worked into subtly). The basic schtick basically being "you might as well just show me your tits now, and get the pretensions over with", or a sort of "I'm onto you". This is why when you see a cute-seeming girl being unusually friendly or acting geeky someone will toss one of the many versions of that copypasta her way.

I read your post before falling asleep so I might not remember it completely here, but it seemed like you indicated that any attractive person can't be a nerd. Now I'd say that is quite insulting and a really broad generalization. It seems like you think that being a nerd ism socially unaccepted and that by being attractive you're automatically accepted. Social skills has nothing to do with it. I might be wrong simply because of the state I am in now and the state I was when I read it though.

However I'm not sure if you are actually talking about girls who go around wearing geeky t-shirts without liking games or girls who play online games where they intentionally use the fact that they have a matching pair of chromosomes to manipulate guys. I am talking about the girls appearing as geeks and I am pretty sure that was what this video was about too. Now of course the kind of manipulation you talk about is bad, but that is something else entirely. Those aren't girls pretending to like games in order to get attention, those are girls pretending to like you in order to get something for free. Honestly I think you are the one who missed the point here.

Nope, I got the point here entirely. The "Hot Nerd Girl" pretty much does not exist, or exists in such small quantities as to be irrelevent, and warrent justified suspician any time it shows up, because pretty much anyone who fits that description is there for purposes of manipulation... period.

Likewise, the thing is that someone who is physically attractive is going to have people give them a chance no matter what their social skills happen to be. Hot girls can generally get away with being totally maladjusted B@tches if they want to, and still have people orbiting around them. A real nerd doesn't have those kinds of options or oppertunities, which is part of what makes them nerds. A nerd is an outcast that by definition nobody in society wants to deal with or really give a chance. An attractive girl generally cannot truely be a social outcast to this degree to be a real nerd. The options, and potential for acceptance, generally prohibit it.


Whether you, or Jim, agree with me or not is more or less irrelevent. The bottom line is these nerd girls are not being accepted by the rest of "the nerd herd" so to speak, the fact speaks for itself. I've explained, in detail no less, why this is, you can cry to the heavens about how it's wrong and unfair all you want but that won't change anything. It's also why mis-informed appeals like those of Jim Sterling are almost surely doomed for failure. Those that have been exploited or know those who have been are of course going to ignore him. Those that haven't been and listen will generally agree with him about as long as it takes for them to eventually be screwed.

 

[clippen05]

As someone attempting to make a youtube centric gaming channel, fake gaming girls do annoy me. Why? Because some girl who makes a video showing some tits while talking about games will get thousands of viewers, but her commentary/review/ etc. will be absolute shit. She'll get views just because of the sex appeal. That's not to say that all women's gaming youtube channels out there do this; some do make great gaming videos, but there are a lot who don't and just ride the cleavage view train.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I've been gaming since 1984. It's my main hobby, it's pretty much all I do. Exactly how are you sitting there telling me I'm not a gamer just because I happen to have ovaries.

Sometimes people want to make me flip a goddamn table seriously.

The 1920's called they want their opinion of women back.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I've been gaming since 1984. It's my main hobby, it's pretty much all I do. Exactly how are you sitting there telling me I'm not a gamer just because I happen to have ovaries.

Sometimes people want to make me flip a goddamn table seriously.

I stand by what I told him about firing up a copy of Quake and coming at me. Hell, I get home tonight, I'm going to go and scrape some rust off my hands just on the off chance this little frag-bait actually let's me gib his ass one on one.

We shouldn't have to fucking prove ourselves tbh.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

When was the last time you heard anything about Ms. Sarkeesian? 'Cause I haven't heard anything from her in ages. Probably because I get most of my new from this site, but whatever.

2 months ago as I wrote a little article about something related to her and how EA have hired her to essentially tell DICE how to make Mirrors edge 2.
Mostly it was questing why she was actually consulting upon gameplay when her area is characters. Along with questioning the idea that Faith is a good female character when honestly she's not much more rounded a character than Gordon Freeman (Gordon freeman is more of a narrative device than a character in his own right, not saying its a bad thing as such though)

2 months? Yeah that sounds about right. In that time we really haven't heard a peep out of her. Or at least I haven't. Although her consulting on Mirrors Edge 2 is an interesting development.

Why haven't I heard about either of those things? I knew Wil Wheaton had made a few statements but I didn't know he had received death threats or anything. ...not that that surprises me any. It seems few people on the Internet know how to properly address issues they feel strongly about and resort to lashing out like a pack of rabid chimpanzees. ...except that would be an insult to rabid chimpanzees.

Actually Wil wheaton didn't recieve death threats (at least to the best of my knowledge) )
it was the now ex Destructoid guy who received them from some of the army of Wheatons fans.

Either way, I haven't heard of it.

 

[Mel Theofficegamergirl]

Can't we all just get along? I never actually see this happening IRL when I've been at events or conventions or whatever. As for online, I get a little pissed when someone questions my nerdiness because said fakes exist. It's okay though, I forgive people who are ignorant enough to approach me with such questioning.

 

[Grumpy Ginger]

Maybe a good little way to get peoples head around why telling women to just turn off chat online or to ignore abuse is insensitive and dickish is to do one simple thing, replace every mention of women with a black person and every sexist insult with the n word and other racist slurs.Now how do you feel defending racist slurs and discrimination soak it in because you should be feeling just as bad for defending being a sexist douche or sexist douche enabler.

 

[clippen05]

I also just though of something else. Recently at my school there was a school volleyball tournament. It was competitive, but many teams entered just to have fun and not care about their record. Many teams went with a team costume in mind. One team were all dressed as superheroes in some way. There were girls on that team, and guess what, they knew a decent amount about superheroes. But then there was another team, aptly named, "Revenge of the Nerds." I know I might catch some flak for saying this, but here we go. The girls on this team were all the kind of people that 100% I know for a fact couldn't tell Star Trek from Star Wars, couldn't name one video consoles, don't play video games, nothing. I know that people may say, "But you don't know that for sure!!!!" That's true, I don't, but I'm sure all of you know of that one clique from highschool: girls that are attractive cheerleader types who go out and drink every weekend at parties. That was these girls. Their team attire were suspenders, ties, office shirts, and the typical "Nerd Glasses:" Is that what nerds are? Going into this further, many of these girls dressed up in the same attire at Halloween parties. To me, this is really offensive. Is that what represents a nerd or a geek? Are we such a joke that we're a Halloween costume? Now to concede I know these girls weren't trying to fool anyone into thinking they were "nerds", (Some of them are actually pretty cool people that I could talk to) but still, it makes me wonder how the subculture is thought of...

 

[Cat of Doom]

My girlfreind often gets 'tested' on her knowledge of games, especially by when she wears her assassins creed of mass effect T-shirts. Nerds seem to get angry, as if shes wearing their uniform, and she has to meet a certain grade to be able to wear them. Some jackass even accused her of being a fake nerd girl (something she dosen't claim to be) because she only plays a few titles mainstream titles on the xbox, and not obscure indie games on a £1000 gaming pc. If you regularly play any game your a gamer, its not an elite club.

Even I'v been questioned if I'm a REAL gamer before because I guess I don't look the part, and I work in the industry.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

.......

this whole persecution complex is toxic and not good for anything, people need to move the fuck on , this is what happens when people take labels and titles too seriously..people you don;t like play games BIG FUCKING DEAL....

I'm female and I'm a "gamer" DEAL WITH IT

 

[OuroborosChoked]

It's one thing if I can go up to one of these supposed "fake nerd" girls, and we can actually hold a discussion about the Atari 2600's impact on modern gaming citing specific examples (or something similar)... if you can do that, you're a nerd in my book.

How often do you even see that conversation happen? I was playin' Star Raiders on the Atari 400, son. I go to some pretty in-depth gaming sites and blogs. You know how often I've seen a conversation about the "Atari 2600's impact on modern gaming?" Certainly not here in the Escapist forums. And rarely outside of an article on Gamasutra. The very statement is pretentious*.

But then, in some peoples' book I'd be a fake gamer, too.

*As an aside I could go off on how the Star Raiders design did not go on to influence modern gaming, when it should have. Despite its DNA being found in Elite, Wing Commander, and the like, but completely gone by the time we get Mass Effect.

Pretentious? Not to me. I grew up on the Atari 2600. When most kids were playing Nintendo, my family had Atari. I played the shit out of the old 2600 Pac Man! Moon Patrol, Space Invaders, Sea Quest, Megamania... that made up years of my childhood. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's pretentious, either. If you have a passion for something, you'll find a way to expose yourself to it. I never had a Genesis growing up, nor were there a lot of arcades around me anywhere I lived, but emulators in college helped with that.

And I did say "or something similar", so it doesn't have to be that specifically... but any topic of excruciating detail that only someone with that specific knowledge would be able to participate in. People who can are people who have a real passion for the medium... they become nerds for that topic. To me, if you can talk about how Star Raiders should have influenced gaming more, you're a nerd... and I want to hear it!

Besides, it's not like this is setting the bar too high. When I was in college, I used to hang out at a locally-owned video game store. It was where a bunch of nerdy guys (and some nerdy girls!) congregated and just talked about video games, cracked jokes, and had a good time... yes, we bought games from the store, too... In there, that kind of conversation was COMMON. It was like video game nerd heaven and my second home. Those were some of... no, fuck it... they WERE the best years of my life. I felt accepted for who I was... and I've missed it every day since it closed.

Basically, it comes down to this: gaming makes you a gamer, but being a gamer doesn't make you a nerd.

^If anyone is going to take anything away from this thread, it's that.^


P.S. I just want to share this one bit from memory lane here. One day we were all sitting around watching the store's clerk play Mario Golf or something on the Gamecube... and this guy who was a regular there just says out of the blue: I wonder if Boo died in a car accident...

I was in TEARS! I was literally on the floor laughing because I had never thought about it... I mean, he's a ghost, right? How did he become a ghost? It just struck me that this cutesy little Nintendo character was actually someone who just ran into a tree...

Okay, I'm a sick fuck... but I found it hilarious. I still do.

God, I miss those days...