Jimquisition: Gamer Guys

[Darmani]

*snipped as I remember what I said*

I disagree. More female characters will bring change to what they're doing. That change will be the reduction of the opposition to female protagonists. Something I see as an extremely important first step. What comes after will come more naturlly. FPSes with female protagonists (maybe a perfect dark sequel/reboot), women with various amounts of depth of writing will appear, maybe a heavenly sword sequel/hack and slashes, parkour, asssassin games, stealth games, and generally a smattering of the sort of games guys already star in, plus agency to have intimate relationships they initiate while you play as them.

A lot of relationships aren't initiated by players *now.* The stories had designated love interests (Pandora's Tower) or multiple possible appealing females (OoT) that may or may not become love interests (Valkyria Chronicles, Bioware, otome games).
Okay but point the thing is we're kind of already there its just a matter of expansion.

Personally I think female characters, especially if "gender matters" as you've requested, aren't going to work outside an ensemble piece. Just like dudes fall for babes in bikinis, explosions, and narratives where "they are the one the only one" in whatever context ladies seem to like games where they have character that has a social or interactive context. Okay not as petty a drive as the girl in bikini but it is a thing. Even in TTRPGs this is practically standard for "so you're having or want to have female players in your group" this is advice 101. Give them some respect, eliminate elements that feel hostile or unwelcoming, put a wasketbasket next to the toilet and clean the bathroom, and make sure you have a social aspect or forum and ability to resolve conflicts that way in your game.
All those things will help make females more welcome and more participatory in gaming even if they always play fighter jocks.

Even ignoring that.. what about sports and driving games? Shooters its gotten criminal espeically with all the modes and body hopping and in police procedurals female characters have long become accepted and even standarized and played by Michelle Rodriguez 3 out of 5 times. But how do you put a female protagonist in other genres where they aren't just rare by virtue of lack of use but genuinely out of place.

One less fear in development that something won't sell might embolden developers to be able to freely create things that people say don't sell? Horror games where you can't fight all that well, if at all? Point and clicks, even though Walking Dead shown that could work, and is already getting a sequel?

Maybe, just maybe there will be a boom of increased revenue as welcomed women join in on buying games in earnest?

Doubtful gaming sale's "decline" is due to the greying of the market and grouping thanks to internet. Don't by half a dozen titles to fill up your hours between classes or part-time job buy the latest CoD for the year plus DLC to play it with your friends from school, college, or just acquaintances from work between your 40-60 work week, gym, taxes, bills, and parenthood. Making Halo and CoD more female friendly (and they've started note the ads and marketing) might do more than putting out more females as single protagonists in games. Also gendering a story can backfire and likely requires more...preparation in the creation process earlier in the design phase. Also there is the whole "Okay this game is about like black ops from Kennedy to Reagan" and a female protagonist may feel out of place for the iconic and basic story they are telling.
In terms of free time eating who suffers more male or females as they grow up and get families and jobs? Moreover of this social freetime just how acceptable is shooting as general rule?

Not one of my usually needling questions I don't know.

Again there are women gamers. But how many of you and your girlfriends go "what the hell, we have a spare 70 minutes let's get on Xbox live and get a deathmatch going" and that is an overall neutral and inclusive activity, not planned or just for me, Jenny, and Natasha (sorry about the names I suck at naming). Versus say guys who can likely get on the horn or with their coworkers and do the same as an opening icebreaker or no commitment no judgement thing. Honest question I know its *changing* and again there are female gamers even shooter, FPS, folks. But as a general baseline event is that more of thing? Not to stereotype but I thought it was more female gamers into RPGs, action adventure games, single player, ryhthm, party, MMORPGs (built in social and artistic elements) and so , and yeah recent increase in fighters I think are more of thing.

But seriously, I'm not expecting some grand gaming rennaissance out of this.

Okay but the issue is if there isn't solid money and risk of loss of money AND face from deviating from the tried and true just on mechanical progression and story (many games play out like B level movies). My main theme is the most popular game of the moment is the dudebro shooter. Making the guy who holds the gun a woman will likely NOT have the positive impact you have requested (she won't be more noticeably visible for one and agency in these things is nonexistant its just that it follows an accepted male leaning narrative we don't notice... would Pvt Soap make a good female for you?)

I'm not looking for some far reaching changes to society or anything, here, though with more female protagonists the complaints about female representation will prolly spread out more, and lose focus. People will have more general opinions on female protagonists in games because there will be many directions for them to go.

Agreed. I think they already have them from the last cycle of prominence and I think with the deepening of characters and their relation to the setting in general coming or already here (again with the Femmesheppe and Lightning and even other m Samus to a degree, note Lara Croft is back, we just had Remember Me, and picking your gender is more and more prevalent). Its just now we're on the war story MP cycle and once that's knocked out then gender variation will be on the rise but not before we get sick of shooting everything. And given the response to Bioshock Infinite (another game I really think couldn't have hoped to work with a female protagonist... so Booker DeWitt.. female pinkerton agent, self hating mixed blooded american, possible mother of pseudo mormonism, baby seller, drunk, gambler, and genocidal slaughterer sound like what you're in for?).

So long as the gaming industry lives in fear of doing things outside of the status quo, the industry will not mature. It will not grow. Infact, judging by the way things are going, it'll reach a gaming crash. It'll be a disaster. It won't die, per say, as people will strive to keep it on life support, but it'll be nearly wiped out.

I don't think there will be life support. I think Moviebob is right. As an industry or set set of entertainment video gaming is too big to fail. At best even if Sony, MS, and Nintendo tank we have the whole iOS and Android market and GoG to keep the history and Steam to keep trying what works. The fear of outside the status quo is founded though. I'm honestly struggling how to convey the same experience of Modern Warfare with a female lead but NOT do the hated GI Jane plot that got Other M part of its lambasting. Moreover Modern Warfare taps into so much going on with us right now as thin as it does...I think the DLC concept I pitched was the best I got.
I'm reminded when gay comic fans wanted more representation and they certainly didn't mean for this [http://www.shortpacked.com/index.php?id=1878/]. Because the modern male character in videogames goes through some brutal shit and when Lara Croft was shown doing so accusations of misogyny and wailing about discomfort with the images and material flew even when the context made sense (a pirate attempting to rape a captive! NEVER!!!)
That said I agree for diversity. I just think wait you'll get more women in gaming and on gaming covers. But I don't think it will satisfy your fundamental dissatisfaction (shooting galleries, etc) or result in something like today (Is she going to look like Robin in Arkham City)

The Other M's reaction might have been smaller if she had some real, and more numerous, possibly well known competiition. Don't get me wrong, there would have been a reaction what with her being the longest running series with a female only protagonist being roughly 30 years old, but it might not have been so focused on if she weren't the nail that stuck up the most.

Again I think they took the right risk making her a character first not an icon (see Yatzhee's mocking of Mario versus Luigi for how that can end up, heck look at Princess Peach who's gotten more And MORE inoffensive and bubbly). There are some questionable points. And deserved criticism. the lady from G4's issue about Samus not having to prove herself, valid complaint. I still think its wrong but valid. But the sexism as accusation for all faults got out of hand and gave the game and its voice actress a reputation undeserved. That the solution was Jennifer Hale and Retro Studios makes me want to produce snakes from my mouth when people go "we don't just want hardass superbeing you're misinterpreting me" because that's what Hale does and is most known for thanks to Femmesheppe and her other Bioware roles and that's what the Prime Cycle following PC gaming trends alluded to.

All that said I want more women in video games. I like the diversity but at the same time they are there so I think its better for female gamers to be more specific in what they want catered to them. No gatekeeping, okay. But that's specific, the argument is specific. The experiences are specific. My most defense is there is an issue to be and non"you're a pig" reasons (and approaches) had but gatekeeping is still over all wrong. With females as protagonists...I think really its a matter of waiting and looking. Fairytale; Wet; Mirror's Edge; FFXIII-1,2,3; Fable; Metroid; DOA; Okami, Nancy Drew. And even if not as headliners playable female characters as general picks and alts or just filling the cast in Blazblu and other fighting games is more and more a thing. (Shinobu in NMH2)
Its why I have such negativity for the argument of the lack of females in gaming. Its translating more you're not the most prominent in the most popular games in gaming and only for a time because we see an increase. I think it oversimplifies what is going on and enables more outrage than actual analysis and discussion
Even where there is a valid complaint or some serious questions to prepare us for (again with what do females in gaming have to be to be satisfying to that wide untapped female audience)
You mention minecraft in response to my fictional dialogue. I just want to point out if that is so how could you make the next minecraft and make it MORE welcoming to female players? It just seems with some genre too risky, not worth the effort, and with others redundant, in that it won't make a difference in appeal in either respects.

 

[thebakedpotato]

At times I wonder if I should read such long winded wall o text replies... But then I am reminded that this is the internet. And they're more for masturbation than changing the world.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

*snipped as I remember what I said*

I disagree. More female characters will bring change to what they're doing. That change will be the reduction of the opposition to female protagonists. Something I see as an extremely important first step. What comes after will come more naturlly. FPSes with female protagonists (maybe a perfect dark sequel/reboot), women with various amounts of depth of writing will appear, maybe a heavenly sword sequel/hack and slashes, parkour, asssassin games, stealth games, and generally a smattering of the sort of games guys already star in, plus agency to have intimate relationships they initiate while you play as them.

A lot of relationships aren't initiated by players *now.* The stories had designated love interests (Pandora's Tower) or multiple possible appealing females (OoT) that may or may not become love interests (Valkyria Chronicles, Bioware, otome games).
Okay but point the thing is we're kind of already there its just a matter of expansion.

Personally I think female characters, especially if "gender matters" as you've requested, aren't going to work outside an ensemble piece. Just like dudes fall for babes in bikinis, explosions, and narratives where "they are the one the only one" in whatever context ladies seem to like games where they have character that has a social or interactive context. Okay not as petty a drive as the girl in bikini but it is a thing. Even in TTRPGs this is practically standard for "so you're having or want to have female players in your group" this is advice 101. Give them some respect, eliminate elements that feel hostile or unwelcoming, put a wasketbasket next to the toilet and clean the bathroom, and make sure you have a social aspect or forum and ability to resolve conflicts that way in your game.
All those things will help make females more welcome and more participatory in gaming even if they always play fighter jocks.

Even ignoring that.. what about sports and driving games? Shooters its gotten criminal espeically with all the modes and body hopping and in police procedurals female characters have long become accepted and even standarized and played by Michelle Rodriguez 3 out of 5 times. But how do you put a female protagonist in other genres where they aren't just rare by virtue of lack of use but genuinely out of place.

A lot of male protagonists get to initiate relationships in games.
Kratos had a wife, and daughter, and gets orgies in pretty much every game he's in!
Nathan Drake has love interests.
Niko Bellic has optional dates in GTA IV. Pretty sure he's not alone in that series.
Wei Shen in Sleeping dogs has optional relationships.
There's a long list of guys out there that go on quests because their wife and/or kid are in peril, or their girlfriends are.
Even in games where women get to have relationships, the PoV is at times changed to a guy, and they're the ones really initiating it. I'm hard pressed to think of the reverse of that.
When was the last time a game company told a developer they could -not- have the guy have a relationship?

Lara Croft had do love interests, and Nilin was actively denied one.

I agree respecting women is the way to get them involved, but that doesn't mean making them unappealing to guys, and one must be careful to not make them unappealing to anyone.
As much as Bayonetta took flak for her style, some people, women among them, like Bayonetta.

You seem under the mitaken impression that to have female protagonists, you must have a dialogue rich game for it to work. While it might help, it's not the end all, or be all.
There's female gun enthusiasts out there that may enjoy shooters.
There's women who like cars that might enjoy racing games. A female driver could be awesome.
Sports games? Women can like sports, too. Fantasy sports have contained weomen in the past, and don't have to rely on real teams.
Women are people. You can't necessarily constrain their preferrences any more than you can for guys. Women aren't limited to liking certain sorts of games.

Thinking of women, and men in stereotypical boxes is what caused this mess to begin with.

Also, I absolutely adore Michelle Rodriguez. It is a bit of a shame she's typecast as the tough girl, but she sure can pull it off.

One less fear in development that something won't sell might embolden developers to be able to freely create things that people say don't sell? Horror games where you can't fight all that well, if at all? Point and clicks, even though Walking Dead shown that could work, and is already getting a sequel?

Maybe, just maybe there will be a boom of increased revenue as welcomed women join in on buying games in earnest?

Doubtful gaming sale's "decline" is due to the greying of the market and grouping thanks to internet. Don't by half a dozen titles to fill up your hours between classes or part-time job buy the latest CoD for the year plus DLC to play it with your friends from school, college, or just acquaintances from work between your 40-60 work week, gym, taxes, bills, and parenthood. Making Halo and CoD more female friendly (and they've started note the ads and marketing) might do more than putting out more females as single protagonists in games. Also gendering a story can backfire and likely requires more...preparation in the creation process earlier in the design phase. Also there is the whole "Okay this game is about like black ops from Kennedy to Reagan" and a female protagonist may feel out of place for the iconic and basic story they are telling.
In terms of free time eating who suffers more male or females as they grow up and get families and jobs? Moreover of this social freetime just how acceptable is shooting as general rule?

Not one of my usually needling questions I don't know.

Again there are women gamers. But how many of you and your girlfriends go "what the hell, we have a spare 70 minutes let's get on Xbox live and get a deathmatch going" and that is an overall neutral and inclusive activity, not planned or just for me, Jenny, and Natasha (sorry about the names I suck at naming). Versus say guys who can likely get on the horn or with their coworkers and do the same as an opening icebreaker or no commitment no judgement thing. Honest question I know its *changing* and again there are female gamers even shooter, FPS, folks. But as a general baseline event is that more of thing? Not to stereotype but I thought it was more female gamers into RPGs, action adventure games, single player, ryhthm, party, MMORPGs (built in social and artistic elements) and so , and yeah recent increase in fighters I think are more of thing.

I never meant to imply that removing women from the equasion was the sole cause of gaming's financial woes, but I can imagine it playing a part in it. If women spending more on games could help the situation, but the industry is not trying to reach out to them, then it's the gaming industry's fault.

My significant other and I do, often sit down and game for an hour easy. It may not be deathmatches, but we have played Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, Dead Island, Minecraft, Rainbow Six Vegas 1 and 2, borderlands 1, little big planet, Red Dead Redemption, Civilization Revolution, Monster Hunter, Resident evil outbreat 1 2 and 5, and a great many other games with a preferrence for, but not exclusively co-op.
We even tried out Dust (a shooter based on the Eve universe), my SO also played Eve a while.
You can imagine we're diverse gamers, eh?

I mainsly stick to consoles, though since a Wii U is a stronger system than my laptop, and I have a great deal of preference for consoles for assorted reasons.

But seriously, I'm not expecting some grand gaming rennaissance out of this.

Okay but the issue is if there isn't solid money and risk of loss of money AND face from deviating from the tried and true just on mechanical progression and story (many games play out like B level movies). My main theme is the most popular game of the moment is the dudebro shooter. Making the guy who holds the gun a woman will likely NOT have the positive impact you have requested (she won't be more noticeably visible for one and agency in these things is nonexistant its just that it follows an accepted male leaning narrative we don't notice... would Pvt Soap make a good female for you?)

Sure, people might be mad if they made a CoD/MW where a woman held the gun, but what if they made it epic enough that the story the woman is in made up for it?

So long as if they atleast tried to live up to the standards of the rest of the series, yes, Pvt. Soap as a female soldier would be fine. People buy CoD, and MW generally knowing what they're getting. Expecting more, or settleing for less just won't fly too well.

I'm not looking for some far reaching changes to society or anything, here, though with more female protagonists the complaints about female representation will prolly spread out more, and lose focus. People will have more general opinions on female protagonists in games because there will be many directions for them to go.

Agreed. I think they already have them from the last cycle of prominence and I think with the deepening of characters and their relation to the setting in general coming or already here (again with the Femmesheppe and Lightning and even other m Samus to a degree, note Lara Croft is back, we just had Remember Me, and picking your gender is more and more prevalent). Its just now we're on the war story MP cycle and once that's knocked out then gender variation will be on the rise but not before we get sick of shooting everything. And given the response to Bioshock Infinite (another game I really think couldn't have hoped to work with a female protagonist... so Booker DeWitt.. female pinkerton agent, self hating mixed blooded american, possible mother of pseudo mormonism, baby seller, drunk, gambler, and genocidal slaughterer sound like what you're in for?).

[/quote]
I don't really believe there's things resembling phases in videogame wants. Just people making something, and if it sells well, other people glom onto it. I don't believe it'll go out of fashion until the unlikely event these stop selling, or they believe it won't sell.
Waiting these thigs out may well be folly.

Yes, we got Remember Me, but how did you hear about this game? Did you see a TV commercial for it?
Personally I saw next to no advertisement of the game, and a lot of that was the controversy, and some game event vids. Moreover I've seen a lot of people asking what the game was on facebook via the comments section on videos, and what not. If it fails, I'd say a good part of it was the simple fact not enough people knew it exists. The rest may not have had their standards lived up to.

Tomb Raider got a few commercials, and they were largely attached to Gamestop, but the commercials came and went in an astoundingly short amount of time.

As for the Booker type of character, having played Saints Row 2 I can safely say I was a genocidal, drunk, gambling woman in game, and I even got wasted on drugs more than once, and was quite the criminal, and tap danced over the event horizon into villainy. If the drugs and alcohol were in Saiknts Row 3, I would've screwed around with them in that game, too. So that's everything but the religious part, and the baby selling part. That said, I'd be down for a female protagonist that had those 2 parts added.

Like I said, I like variety, and I want variety. That includes good traits, and bad traits.

So long as the gaming industry lives in fear of doing things outside of the status quo, the industry will not mature. It will not grow. Infact, judging by the way things are going, it'll reach a gaming crash. It'll be a disaster. It won't die, per say, as people will strive to keep it on life support, but it'll be nearly wiped out.

I don't think there will be life support. I think Moviebob is right. As an industry or set set of entertainment video gaming is too big to fail. At best even if Sony, MS, and Nintendo tank we have the whole iOS and Android market and GoG to keep the history and Steam to keep trying what works. The fear of outside the status quo is founded though. I'm honestly struggling how to convey the same experience of Modern Warfare with a female lead but NOT do the hated GI Jane plot that got Other M part of its lambasting. Moreover Modern Warfare taps into so much going on with us right now as thin as it does...I think the DLC concept I pitched was the best I got.
I'm reminded when gay comic fans wanted more representation and they certainly didn't mean for this [http://www.shortpacked.com/2013/comic/book-15/01-about-face/theliewetellourselves/]. Because the modern male character in videogames goes through some brutal shit and when Lara Croft was shown doing so accusations of misogyny and wailing about discomfort with the images and material flew even when the context made sense (a pirate attempting to rape a captive! NEVER!!!)
That said I agree for diversity. I just think wait you'll get more women in gaming and on gaming covers. But I don't think it will satisfy your fundamental dissatisfaction (shooting galleries, etc) or result in something like today (Is she going to look like Robin in Arkham City)

Well, considering that there was some 125 game developers out there, and now we're down to 1/5th that, plus so many game companies are going bankrupt especially in recent times, all the jabs at anti-piracy/DRM, pleas to buy games twice, crazed eagerness to get the CoD bucks to the point where games feel like they sell their souls, offputting DLC practices, and all the other ways they try and make money besides actually selling their games kinda points to a faltering system. How bad it gets remains to be seen, but it may get worse.

I think it's kinda simple on how to make a story of a female soldier. Respect it. Let her do her job. Don't skimp any more than you would a guy.
If the plot is epic enough, people are going to overlook the fact the protagonist is a woman.

Best you have, or not, I agree that a DLC approach could be viable.

Having played through Tomb Raider from start to finish, then a second helping to get 100% I can see where the rape thing might have come from, as it lingered a bit uncomfortably on one scene, but failing the scene after is just a straight up death. And as bad as that scene looks, it's a pivotal one in Lara's life if you get through it.

You're misreading me. I know this much because of what you say later in the thread. My fundamental dissatisfaction is the lack of female protagonists, and the people that try to prevent their existance, and attack their agency.

The Other M's reaction might have been smaller if she had some real, and more numerous, possibly well known competiition. Don't get me wrong, there would have been a reaction what with her being the longest running series with a female only protagonist being roughly 30 years old, but it might not have been so focused on if she weren't the nail that stuck up the most.

Again I think they took the right risk making her a character first not an icon (see Yatzhee's mocking of Mario versus Luigi for how that can end up, heck look at Princess Peach who's gotten more And MORE inoffensive and bubbly). There are some questionable points. And deserved criticism. the lady from G4's issue about Samus not having to prove herself, valid complaint. I still think its wrong but valid. But the sexism as accusation for all faults got out of hand and gave the game and its voice actress a reputation undeserved. That the solution was Jennifer Hale and Retro Studios makes me want to produce snakes from my mouth when people go "we don't just want hardass superbeing you're misinterpreting me" because that's what Hale does and is most known for thanks to Femmesheppe and her other Bioware roles and that's what the Prime Cycle following PC gaming trends alluded to.

All that said I want more women in video games. I like the diversity but at the same time they are there so I think its better for female gamers to be more specific in what they want catered to them. No gatekeeping, okay. But that's specific, the argument is specific. The experiences are specific. My most defense is there is an issue to be and non"you're a pig" reasons (and approaches) had but gatekeeping is still over all wrong. With females as protagonists...I think really its a matter of waiting and looking. Fairytale; Wet; Mirror's Edge; FFXIII-1,2,3; Fable; Metroid; DOA; Okami, Nancy Drew. And even if not as headliners playable female characters as general picks and alts or just filling the cast in Blazblu and other fighting games is more and more a thing. (Shinobu in NMH2)
Its why I have such negativity for the argument of the lack of females in gaming. Its translating more you're not the most prominent in the most popular games in gaming and only for a time because we see an increase. I think it oversimplifies what is going on and enables more outrage than actual analysis and discussion
Even where there is a valid complaint or some serious questions to prepare us for (again with what do females in gaming have to be to be satisfying to that wide untapped female audience)
You mention minecraft in response to my fictional dialogue. I just want to point out if that is so how could you make the next minecraft and make it MORE welcoming to female players? It just seems with some genre too risky, not worth the effort, and with others redundant, in that it won't make a difference in appeal in either respects.

Princess peach got more inoffensive? That's arguable. In Super Princess Peach she battled her enemies, and solved puzzles with wild mood swings, and was on a quest for the "vibe sceptor" with the implications it's the sort of thing that makes mothers happy.
I admit this video
http://youtu.be/e_xbSMK390s
is a bit of overanalyzation, but it pretty much backs up the implication that Princess Peach is fighting her enemies with massive mood swings, and is on the hunt for a what's essentially a vibrator.
I'm not exactly hopping mad, enraged, or particularly offended, but I am kinda dissapoiunted it went that way, and more inoffensive isn't exactly the word I'd use.
Stacked with Other M, and http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252 (granted it's a joke) I worry for Nintendo's next female hero.

Yeah, I have most of the games you mentioned. Do keep in mind that some of them aren't female protagonist only games.
It can feel like an eternity between game releases, and I actively hunt, and look for games with female only protagonists. I get what I prefer most coz I can't afford them all at times. Mind you that's not so much out of a year's release as several years of releases. It's nowhere near as bountiful as male options. Some years I didn't even get a new game with a female protagonist.

You understood my problems with women just being supporting NPCs. The case is similar for fighting games, too.

I don't have anything against voice actors. It is a sad fact they do get type cast so it's harder to get the sort of roles other than what they're known for, though. Hale's career as a tough girl voice actor isn't limited to Femmeshep. She's sort of what Michelle Rodriguez is to tough women in movies as far as Voice Actors go. It's not rearlly her fault she's typecast, and she has to work.

Feeling negative about this sort of talk is fine. I don't hold it against you. At least you're willing to talk about it as opposed to shouting down your opposition, or ignoring it.

It's not so much a matter that women aren't in the most popular games, it's that those that are out there are easy to not know about and having to research and dig for them is annoying, they're being prevented from being made, and their agency is being reduced.

It's an oversimplification because, to me, it's a very simple matter. Producers, and developers need to stop treating female protagonists, and their agency poorly. At least compared to male protagonists, and male agency.

How would minecraft be more welcoming to women? Have a default woman skin next to Steve, and a woman's voice for grunts by default. Not terribly hard, imo. I wouldn't be too surprised if they've already done it.
The modding community's made a lot of nice female skins, and minecraft is fairly popular with women. I only mentioned it in being more popular than Limbo, IIRC.

 

[Darmani]

I don't think making female the immediate star of CoD will make anyone mad. Not initially. I think it will be deeply unsatisfying for your request of females in games. And feel out of place because of response likely to be elicitted from the audience, more later. Mostly the FPS star is an empty vessel we don't see following the words of a voice over a radio shooting things. I don't see how it will satisfy one of your stated goals for variety and representation if that "character" is a female.

It should be noted in that game EVERYONE used emotions to get powers. Peach could control hers.. well the player could. Also the idea of "emotion keyed" powers is far from female only. Harry Potter for a quick example. Also we've had yoshi's get power from eating for a while so...while I can get the implications they seem more cheeky for a cartoon then offensive. Also I think --- Mama... okay the real offensive it was science papa more than anything but before that comic came out we had Cooking AND Education Mama. And really I have to wonder why those spinoffs didn't happen.. okay Doctor Mama would just be Trauma Center, Educated Mama a little redundant but Business/Executive Mama seemed a rather offensive missed step. And business/sim games were in (at least there is a niche as Eve proves).

I'm not a fan of "agency" as an arguing point. The point in Bioshock.. all of them is the struggle of and lack of agnecy. This is even the thing in God of War (okay got me there with the choose your partner thing).

With female characters I think the pitfalls will outweigh the possible gains. Again pointing to Tomb Raider. I think its rather silly in similar situations *guys* aren't threatened with sexual assault, in that one it made perfect sense. But it stirred more negative press and contraversy than Jackie Maa likely dating bad girls. We get really sensitive about females and more judgemental.
Booker DeWitt maintains our sympathy and consideration as a hero we follow, his death is a sacrifice and a tragedy. His flaws endear us to seem him overcome them. His crossing the line is really meant to be him selling his kid.
Could that same level of empathy but lack of shock or hatred to the game or its creators come to pass if Dewitt was female? It would more likely be taken as a statement of women as a whole. A point to this is how people objected to rabid popular coup women Daisy Fitzroy leading public executions when she worked by raising anger, promised vengance, and pursued a revolt by means of arms. That it became a reign of terror was *duh* that this was going to be More Dredd Scott or the Bolsheviks was perfectly sane. But still the largest criticisms aren't Booker's dissolute character but the villification of Fitzroy and the Vox Populi when BOTH are underdogs.

I don't mean to imply you want to play a goody two shoes. I think more you want to play Captain Kirk, in particular 2009 reboot Captain Kirk and won't get that from Female Pvt Soap or Female Booker DeWitt. Given how rare these stories and depth are (and STILL found wanting) and don't fit, or I propose they don't, how could one do. And hope for "epic enough" is a little vague as "strong female character" or "good writing" The only box I put the theoritcal female in is that of the pre-existing male protagonist.

Speaking of...
The large appeal of sports games is another way to be a fan or engage in the culture of sports teams and celebrities. You get to own and run the mariners, Peyton manning follows your play, etc. I didn't mean to say females don't like sports. Actually the opposite. I assume as fans of sports...why would they want or expect or put in female players? Do we then focus on the other sports or leagues with more women? Wasn't there a try for a WNBA game and it.. didn't do so well?
How much do games with original or nonlicensed stars sell? I thought there was a very specific appeal being packaged with sports games its why Madden sells so reliably and strongly year, after year. Its part of the NFL merchandising machine and the play off that culture and sports. That's why I mentioned it as a stumbling block of just not belonging. We watch the NFL and the NFL not alot of women, so PLAYING an NFL game not alot of women. Admittedly because there is more simulation of something in the real world going on.
Still good point on Minecraft, I was just mentioning how Gender seemed mostly irrelevant and I was surprised it didn't already HAVE a female skin/option. Then I rememberd "oh yeah out of a dude's basement"

Heck I though racing games "protagonists" were generic or just an excuse for the cars. Drive-atar HAVING a gender seems weird. Ditto Splt/Second.

That all said yeah there are boxes just from taking cue from the world around us that don't have a lot of women so far. My idea for the DLC (focusing on another element of warfare/being a soldier and a general campaign ideA) reflected what little I knew about where women soldiers were deployed and what soldiers should be doing. However it is, overall, kinda boring to adventures set out in CoD for today. On the other hand as I said with all the body hopping and diverse scenarios already its rather silly just as part of the ensemble we don't control more women.

I also meant to use girlfriends in the term I thought acceptable as "familiar or liked female acquaintances" that I thought was okay. I did not mean to inquire that much on your private life but my question still stands. In general as an activity is gaming acceptable. Your example points to diverse taste AND possible means of interst, but one I'm sore to consider for female gaming households (co-oping everything) and unfortunately reinforces some of my preposed thing (females gravitating to games with strong social components, female gamers few in number or more closed off gaming with each other but not, as much as a general simple thing). It doesn't answer just how the greying and growing up issue that's contracted and influenced the market trends and is expressed through females or more generally. Learning you and your SO enjoy coop games is great. But that tells me to appeal more to female gamers include co-op or multiplayer modes. Something I think is part of problematic trend. Making these have more female avatars or characters is also a good idea. But it doesn't give me as wide a view on "okay how to make multiplayer THE thing to do for females"

Urgh I'm not conveying this clearly I think. Do you understand what I am getting at?

 

[JimB]

You're wrong, Jim. The problem I, and many others, have with fake geek girls isn't the girls bit, it's the fake bit.

Then why isn't the term "fake gamers" and not "gamer girls," and why do you spend the following paragraph explaining how women are out to get men?

 

[Phasmal]

You're wrong, Jim. The problem I, and many others, have with fake geek girls isn't the girls bit, it's the fake bit.

Then why isn't the term "fake gamers" and not "gamer girls," and why do you spend the following paragraph explaining how women are out to get men?

Yup. I love the whole `I'll put a tiny bit about fake geek men and then move back on to bashing women, no one will suspect a thing!` bit.
Cause fake geek girls are TOTES a thing, but fake geek men *psh* yeah maybe!

My boyfriend asked me the other day why this stuff still annoys me so much- because it never goes away for me.
I'm not going to wake up a dude one day and then never face this stupid bullshit ever again.
Every single time I meet another gamer, or dare to use mic, this fucking issue comes up.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter, I think this accurately reflects jims video, and I found some of them pretty funny:

http://fakegeekguys.tumblr.com/

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I don't think making female the immediate star of CoD will make anyone mad. Not initially. I think it will be deeply unsatisfying for your request of females in games. And feel out of place because of response likely to be elicitted from the audience, more later. Mostly the FPS star is an empty vessel we don't see following the words of a voice over a radio shooting things. I don't see how it will satisfy one of your stated goals for variety and representation if that "character" is a female.

It should be noted in that game EVERYONE used emotions to get powers. Peach could control hers.. well the player could. Also the idea of "emotion keyed" powers is far from female only. Harry Potter for a quick example. Also we've had yoshi's get power from eating for a while so...while I can get the implications they seem more cheeky for a cartoon then offensive. Also I think --- Mama... okay the real offensive it was science papa more than anything but before that comic came out we had Cooking AND Education Mama. And really I have to wonder why those spinoffs didn't happen.. okay Doctor Mama would just be Trauma Center, Educated Mama a little redundant but Business/Executive Mama seemed a rather offensive missed step. And business/sim games were in (at least there is a niche as Eve proves).

I'm not a fan of "agency" as an arguing point. The point in Bioshock.. all of them is the struggle of and lack of agnecy. This is even the thing in God of War (okay got me there with the choose your partner thing).

With female characters I think the pitfalls will outweigh the possible gains. Again pointing to Tomb Raider. I think its rather silly in similar situations *guys* aren't threatened with sexual assault, in that one it made perfect sense. But it stirred more negative press and contraversy than Jackie Maa likely dating bad girls. We get really sensitive about females and more judgemental.
Booker DeWitt maintains our sympathy and consideration as a hero we follow, his death is a sacrifice and a tragedy. His flaws endear us to seem him overcome them. His crossing the line is really meant to be him selling his kid.
Could that same level of empathy but lack of shock or hatred to the game or its creators come to pass if Dewitt was female? It would more likely be taken as a statement of women as a whole. A point to this is how people objected to rabid popular coup women Daisy Fitzroy leading public executions when she worked by raising anger, promised vengance, and pursued a revolt by means of arms. That it became a reign of terror was *duh* that this was going to be More Dredd Scott or the Bolsheviks was perfectly sane. But still the largest criticisms aren't Booker's dissolute character but the villification of Fitzroy and the Vox Populi when BOTH are underdogs.

I don't mean to imply you want to play a goody two shoes. I think more you want to play Captain Kirk, in particular 2009 reboot Captain Kirk and won't get that from Female Pvt Soap or Female Booker DeWitt. Given how rare these stories and depth are (and STILL found wanting) and don't fit, or I propose they don't, how could one do. And hope for "epic enough" is a little vague as "strong female character" or "good writing" The only box I put the theoritcal female in is that of the pre-existing male protagonist.

Speaking of...
The large appeal of sports games is another way to be a fan or engage in the culture of sports teams and celebrities. You get to own and run the mariners, Peyton manning follows your play, etc. I didn't mean to say females don't like sports. Actually the opposite. I assume as fans of sports...why would they want or expect or put in female players? Do we then focus on the other sports or leagues with more women? Wasn't there a try for a WNBA game and it.. didn't do so well?
How much do games with original or nonlicensed stars sell? I thought there was a very specific appeal being packaged with sports games its why Madden sells so reliably and strongly year, after year. Its part of the NFL merchandising machine and the play off that culture and sports. That's why I mentioned it as a stumbling block of just not belonging. We watch the NFL and the NFL not alot of women, so PLAYING an NFL game not alot of women. Admittedly because there is more simulation of something in the real world going on.
Still good point on Minecraft, I was just mentioning how Gender seemed mostly irrelevant and I was surprised it didn't already HAVE a female skin/option. Then I rememberd "oh yeah out of a dude's basement"

Heck I though racing games "protagonists" were generic or just an excuse for the cars. Drive-atar HAVING a gender seems weird. Ditto Splt/Second.

That all said yeah there are boxes just from taking cue from the world around us that don't have a lot of women so far. My idea for the DLC (focusing on another element of warfare/being a soldier and a general campaign ideA) reflected what little I knew about where women soldiers were deployed and what soldiers should be doing. However it is, overall, kinda boring to adventures set out in CoD for today. On the other hand as I said with all the body hopping and diverse scenarios already its rather silly just as part of the ensemble we don't control more women.

I also meant to use girlfriends in the term I thought acceptable as "familiar or liked female acquaintances" that I thought was okay. I did not mean to inquire that much on your private life but my question still stands. In general as an activity is gaming acceptable. Your example points to diverse taste AND possible means of interst, but one I'm sore to consider for female gaming households (co-oping everything) and unfortunately reinforces some of my preposed thing (females gravitating to games with strong social components, female gamers few in number or more closed off gaming with each other but not, as much as a general simple thing). It doesn't answer just how the greying and growing up issue that's contracted and influenced the market trends and is expressed through females or more generally. Learning you and your SO enjoy coop games is great. But that tells me to appeal more to female gamers include co-op or multiplayer modes. Something I think is part of problematic trend. Making these have more female avatars or characters is also a good idea. But it doesn't give me as wide a view on "okay how to make multiplayer THE thing to do for females"

Urgh I'm not conveying this clearly I think. Do you understand what I am getting at?

With all the people playing in the world, and the bad rep the players of those games have (not because they're the majority, just the most well known, and loudest) I'd say some people would be mad. And I'd say it's a safe bet they'll be mad over the likely gender option in the multiplayer. There's going to be people who don't see it as a good thing.

Variety includes empty vessels. How often do you see women on the modern battlefield? Almost never? Variety!
How often do you see female modern day soldiers in games? Pretty much never. More of that variety.

While people get power from emotions, the emotion mechanic in Super Princess Peach overdid it, IMO. I doubt Potter changed his emotional state at a whim hundreds of times over the course of a game to drastic, stereotypical extents, or just to solve puzzles.
And I don't think a vibe scepter/wand came into play, either.
Considering Yoshi can lay eggs when he eats, I can say it's more justified.

I am a fan of agency as part of this discussion as agency is the dividing line between NPC, and Playable character, IMO. No NPC will ever have as much agency as a playable character.
NPCs will react the way the CPU tells them to. At times this comes with zero variance from game to game.
Lets look at the President in the old NES game Bad Dudes for the sake of getting away from some of the norms. No matter what you do in the game, he acts the same way no matter what. The president has no agency in that game. Zero. None.
This isn't relegated to the old NES era, this sort of thing happens to this day.
Playable characters often have greater agency. The titular "bad dudes" have agency. Defeat the ninja with a punch, or kick? Take the upper platforms, or not? Pick up a weapon, or not? These decisions can vary from game to game. Granted they get their agency from your decisions as they are the avatars of your will, it remains that their agency is nowhere near as limited as an NPCs.

Pardon the phrasing, but as far as adding female protagonis or not goes, you're damned either way.
The status quo is getting the game industry a very very focused anger. It's costing them customers. People are eagerly talking about this subject.
Personally, I don't feel that avoiding the problem is better than any problem that would arise by tackling it.
You still won't please everyone if you add more female protagoinists, but as I said before, the complaints will disperse over a larger area as people get the ever so wonderful luxury of having a long list of female protagonists to have opinions over in a more recent history. Why, we could possibly have decent rivalries! Like guys have between the protagonists of Infamous, and Prototype, and what they represent as a super powered game characters.
Having much more to talk about keeps things interesting.

You mentioned instant empathy with female protagonists. I dare say what reaction that Booker got would be amplified because of that. Would it be universally liked? No, nothing ever is.
And like Other M, if every problem with te character is going to be looked at more if there is a lack of competition. It's easy to notice the details of a lone tree. Not so much in a forrest.

You're still assuming too much. I don't just want to play as a Kirk type character. It's impossible to limit what I want to one character,character type, example, or even any group of people you can count.
The lack of female protagonists won't be solved by any one character, or any one character type. It's going to take a lineup of characters of varying types across a number of games.

Yes, I admit that Sports games are going to have difficulty incorporating women, but that didn't stop one of my fav sports games from having them. NBA Jam On Fire Edition had Faith from Mirror's Edge, Kaori and Elise from SSX, Sarah Palin, and a girl panda off the top of my head.
You better believe that put a smile on my face and had me unlocking them ASAP. Well, Faith, Kaori, and Elise. I'm not a fan of politics in general.
Golf, and Tennis will have an easier job.
I could have sworn a recent sports game had a gender option. I just can't remember. Was it a hockey game, or a soccer game? Agh...
Still, there's non league options. Fantasy leagues, or maybe a game based on people just playing in real life could work? No stars, just average people.
I really don't know how a game based on the "lingerie football league" would go over. On one hand it had women wanting to compete seriously, but, well, the word Lingerie, and the women wore skimpier but decent versions of male uniforms, and less protective gear. And yes, it exists, or did exist. Might be in off season now. I watched a few games, not for the lingerie (ok, partly coz of it. >.>), but to see them compete.

Protagonists with gender in racing games are silly? Tell that to Mario Kart.
But in all seriousness, silly or not, if you aren't going to make any effort to add women as playable in a game, why would women want to make effort to add your game to their library?
Sure you might get some women buy the game, but people in general do not feel included when they're excluded. It may be a silly notion, but it's a token of good will.

Even with the body hopping in shooters, playing as a woman will have to come with an interesting story. With women not on the front lines, odds are it'll require an unlikely, but possible scenario where she's thrust into having to act in a way that makes for an exciting story. My ideas on that are kinda limited, really.

I know you meant girls who just happen to be friends, or friends in general, but I'm just somewhat open about being lesbian.

I have an idea of what you're talking about, but there's not going to a formula on how to appeal to female gamers other than respecting the representation of female characters, and female protagonists in the same ways that male protagonists are.
I mean I love co-op in sharing my experiences with other people, but I also like a single player experience all my own.
Like Jim Sterling said, there is no perfect pasta sauce. Only perfect pasta sauces.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Games like Pokemon where you pick a gender don't cut it with me until the gender of the protagonist makes a real diffirence in the game.

Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.

I never said that was the case? Red Dead Redemption was pretty well written as a whole.
More than a few games I played had well written male protagonists.
And a handful of times there were well written women.
Of course there were drek writing for both genders in my experience, too.

They aren't always interchangeable, IMO. People do happen to react to men, and women differently at times. Frankly I think it's an undeniable truth for the world in general. Sometimes I appreciate it when games aknowledge this.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Games like Pokemon where you pick a gender don't cut it with me until the gender of the protagonist makes a real diffirence in the game.

Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.

I never said that was the case? Red Dead Redemption was pretty well written as a whole.
More than a few games I played had well written male protagonists.
And a handful of times there were well written women.
Of course there were drek writing for both genders in my experience, too.

They aren't always interchangeable, IMO. People do happen to react to men, and women differently at times. Frankly I think it's an undeniable truth for the world in general. Sometimes I appreciate it when games aknowledge this.

They are interchangeable because gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of. The only reason people think otherwise is because of gender stereotypes they can't seem to get rid of. Well-written stories don't need to have someone's gender make a real difference. So I don't see how games where picking your gender but the gender not being a big deal is a problem. Sure, stories can acknowledge how people view a character, but that can go both ways, good and bad. Discrimination is not something only females know. On some level practically everyone can relate to that.

You certainly do have a point in saying gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of. Videogames, especially aren't constrained by anything but the limits of what they're played on, and the people that program it.

I'm not saying all well written stories need to make a big deal about gender, but well written stories can. That sort of variety is a good thing, IMO, even if it's not necessarily the best light of a person, male or female.

I'm definitely not saying I can't appreciate a game like Skyrim where gender is almost entirely an aesthetic choice, or pokemon where AFAIK gender doesn't matter at all. I just can't live off games like that, or the opposite purely.

Even in games like that, it's nice where there's instances like Dragon's Dogma, where ogres frenzy, and focus on nearby women out of excitement. There's an instance of a troupe of female bandits that a guy has to dress in drag to get in peacefully to interact with. For the most part, though, gender doesn't really matter in Dragon's Dogma, those events aside.

As annoiying as it is, the fact women can't have safe sex with women in Fable is different. The world reacts to your gender, too.

Basically, what I'm saying is there's room for both stories that do, or do not have a world or point of view that alters based on gender for me. I welcome both. Infact, at the end of the day, I'd say I need both.

 

[JimB]

My boyfriend asked me the other day why this stuff still annoys me so much: because it never goes away for me. I'm not going to wake up a dude one day and then never face this stupid bullshit ever again. Every single time I meet another gamer, or dare to use mic, this fucking issue comes up.

I can't think of anything to say here that isn't overstepping my bounds, so I'm just going to acknowledge your response and say nothing except that I'm sorry for the prejudice you face.

They are interchangeable because gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of.

I wonder if "gender" is the word you actually mean here. Gender does not refer to the biological differences between the sexes, but rather the social ones; it describes what roles a given society expects them to fill, in other words. Gender is that aspect of the character that is shaped by the world he lives in, and while it's not impossible to tell a story where gender doesn't matter, it does require the story to go out of its way to avoid such things. I don't think Rebel_Raven is wrong for wanting a game about someone who spent all her life being told she was supposed to get the Happy Meal with the ponies instead of the Transformers in them, yet is now in the position of being an action hero or whatever. If such a character can overcome the social pressure to defer to men, for example, but still keep those aspects of feminine gender she wants to keep, then that sounds like an interesting story to me.

I don't see how games where picking your gender but the gender not being a big deal is a problem.

It's not a problem, really. It's probably even progressive. It might come off as whitewashing gender inequality issues, but that would be a problem with a specific game's presentation, not a categorical problem.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

I am familiar with Korval's blog. But it starts from an assumption of Samus character when this set out to define it. This was rejected because... it wasn't as appealling by what was made before with the sop excuse and newbies wouldn't get it.

So you say before that the games had nothing regarding plot and characterization, which would mean that anyone playing them would get it cause its not that difficult, and yet you say that M:OM was made for newcomers because it IS too difficult to "get into" the franchise.

......right.

Funny I was new to metroid, I mostly got it. I saw it had flaws but liked it. It didn't despite what butthurt fans keep saying "throw out" Metroid Prime so much as de-emphasized that part.
The problem is fans of Samus came to the conclusion, on their own, Samus having maternal feelings for the baby was bad.

Or, it could be that the intro of Super Metroid made ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that Samus didn't have 2 shits about the Baby Metroid:


Otherwise, she would have shown some restrain or worry when she send the Baby to the scientist on the space station. She didn't complain nor expressed in a monologue (like she does on M:OM or Fusion) that it HAD to be done DESPITE her feelings. There is none of that, and therefore the way M:OM presents it is just a bad Retcon from many many more to come. She could be sad AFTER the baby who defended her out of instinct died, but not from the VERY SECOND she meet the thing, which is what M:OM implies.

I can put to fanfic and other articles indicating this. For the most part she was blank as a character with lots of ideas built around her coming to a consensus with minor input from the author.

Minor input or not, there IS an input that Sakamoto was in full control to do as he pleased. He was the director of Super Metroid after all. Hell, even Retro was in constant watch by Nintendo and Shigeru Miyamoto (yes, that guy) when they made Metroid Prime, and was developers the japanese way (and sadly, that wasn't still enough for the franchize to be popular in its homeland, but for Westerns it was excellent). So, if there was something he wanted to do before, he could have done it....and he did.

He made sure that on ALL his works there was a pattern on the way Samus reacts to stuff:

Spoiler

Samus Aran is shot down, loses her superpowers, is left with a catsuit and a pistol that can only stun something and even then just once every 2 seconds. Between her and where she needs to go is a large Space Pirate ship, crawling with people who would like nothing better than to tear her limb from limb. She looks carefully at this situation and says, "Fuck it; I'm gonna Solid Snake this shit!" And then does it.

Samus Aran is being hunted by a sentient parasite that's using her own power armor against her. She can't last more than a few seconds in a fight against this creature. At one point, she hears the ominous footsteps of the monster. She's heard it before, only this time it's waiting for her. It's directly in her way. She's got no chance in this fight. But she jumps down there anyway. She can't kill SA-X, but if she does it right, she can get past it.

Samus Aran is confronted by a planet made of a living, corruptive force that has already consumed an entire species, as well as three of the best hunters in the galaxy. This same force has infested her body and is starting to consume her. She takes one look at this planet and decides to go down there, find a vulnerable spot, and blow it straight to hell.

The GF military tries to sack Zebes and failed. Samus, one woman, goes in and cleans it out. This happens again and again in the games. The Ing fought a two-decades long war against the Luminoth and were literally minutes away from wining (Ever notice that the energy transfer module is taken from an Ing when he's just outside the last bit of energy on Light Aether? That's a good bit of visual storytelling), until Samus came along and saved the day. By herself. In Corruption, when Dark Samus personally attacks Norion, there are four of the most badass bounty hunters in the galaxy present. When Dark Samus dives through the window and starts shooting, which one of these four doesn't get shot? Of all the 3 bounty hunters, who had the willpower to overcome Phason?

For my money, Samus Aran is defined by her boundless courage. There is no task so big that Samus won't take on. Stop alien threats to the galaxy? End a decade's long war while she's in the neighborhood? Halt invasions from beyond the galaxy? And so on.

That element is present in the majority of games (even with the Prime series out of the timeline, the mayority of games of the series belong to Sakamoto), and a pattern is created. If Sakamoto didn't want this to happen cause he wanted to tell a story for later, he could have prevented it at any moment during development.

Also, if the following scene doesn't speak volumes for her character without a word, then i dont know what is:

The author sought to redefine the character along lines he felt more comfortable with and started by focusing on Samus's most distinct trait her gender and famous relationshop with the Metroid hatchling that bonded to her and saved her life.
He used this as a means to redefine the character. WE KNEW THIS WAS COMING YOUR FANFICS WILL BE RUINED

The interviews made it clear that he didn't use M:OM to tell a story of Samus, he did it because he wanted to make a political statement. So i dont see where did you get the idea that he cares about her character:

This didn't make it correct, ignores that "proving herself" was ultimately to herself and she reasserted herself the whole time.

I have no idea what the fuck you mean here. If by "proving herself" you mean Samus, i am pretty sure that blowing up Eldrictch Abominations that would make "The Thing" of John Carpenter blush, AND the fact that in the Prime series she gets people from the Galactic Federation to greet her in awe an inspiration should be proof enough of her worth.

I was there folks.

If that ever worked on a court of law, then most cases will end with just a witness saying: "HE DID IT! I WAS THERE" Case closed. Justice has been served.

Samus taking orders from the highest ranking officer of the army who's property it was on the scene. In tense situaiton like exploring a likely compromised vessel for survivors after proven damaged and infested with enemies? SEXISM

Soooooo apparently the woman that cleans this kind of disasters for a living apparently isn't capable of doing just that again WITHOUT the GF because........because? Apparently Fusion doesn't exist in your timeline.

Samus having PTSD flashback for 40 seconds while she's attacked in 2:30 cutscene performing all sorts of flips and shots and screwing up the resolve to reactivate suit in midair while being crushed by giant spacedragon SEXISM (according to Korval the hero is Anthony... uhm yep the guy knocked aside is the hero)

PTSD doesnt work that way. If she EVER had PTSD then all the Ridley battles should have a moment like that. She did suffer from it in the manga but she got over it, you know why? because that is not PTSD, that is just a plot device. PTSD is incurable and you cant just get over it, even in this galaxy far far away and years into the future where medicine should ALSO be on top of the line, there is still people that use glasses instead of eye surgery or even contact lenses (I am talking about the Tutorial guy in M:OM).

So doing badass stunts instead of AFFECTING THE PLOT is what a proper hero does? May i present you with this trope?:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MilesGloriosus

Or this famous quote:
According to a loose enough definition of 'hero', we qualify. Well, more or less. The point is that good deeds were done and we were nearby.-Red Mage

Adam "The greatest military mind that commanded everyone to split like an Scooby Doo cartoon when not even together could do shit" and the others idiots are the heroes because they actually move the plot forward than the supposed heroine.

Remember Korval (and everyone else) definition of Strong Character?
What is a "strong character?" It doesn't really have anything to do with strength, rebelliousness, or things of that nature.

Narrative is a non-linear combination of three elements: plot, character, and theme. A strong character is one who's actions directly affect the plot. Strong characters drive the plot directly; they are the most important characters to the plot. And while other characters may affect them in some way, those characters only affect the plot in the way that they effect the strong characters. Bruce Wayne and the Joker are strong characters in The Dark Knight. Alfred is a well-drawn and important character, but he's not strong because he never does anything that directly affects the plot.

Strong characters are the agents of the plot, the movers-and-shakers of the story. The ones the plot is built around. The reason the "strong female character" is a litmus test of sorts for feminism is because... there really aren't that many of them. Which means that females in fiction, by and large, only have an indirect effect on the plot. This speaks to a more passive, supportive role for women in general, which ties into the whole "feminine" ideal that many would like to see women not forced into.


And conveniently enough, the other females of the story are equally as useless compared to the manly men. I wonder, what is the definition for when the cast of one gender is portrayed as ineffectual and weak compared to the cast of the opposite sex who get shit done? ......fuck, i cant remember. Oh well.

Adam telling you what to do and expecting it done without justifying his orders to you (well actually he did and later we know WHY he's being secretive AND distant) SEXISM

Except that even in the flashbacks where we are supposed to "get" his character and why Samus respects him, he STILLS acts cold, secretive AND distant. He is always like this, and we are not given a proper reason why would Samus would consider him a father figure when the fucking CHZO where the ones that revive her after the Ridley incident AND gave her the suit (portrayed both in the manga and Zero Mission, by Sakamoto)

And lets not forget the gem that the scene with Adam shooting Samus in the back FIRST, before shooting the deadly Metroid that was about to attack her. Did we get a proper reason as for why he did that, or why Samus doesnt even PROTEST to the mere fact she got shoot by her "trusted" mentor that almost got her killed? no?

Why is this hobo person ordering Samus again?

Motherhood as a theme SEXISM

Korval and the others mentioned Motherhood done right in the movie Aliens. You know, that movie series that inspired Metroid in the first place?

You just didn't read it and you are pulling my leg.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

It's not -just- focus groups that I'm blaming. It's the people that get the focus groups together. They look for people who'll confirm what they want to hear over what people in general think. Your example of focus testers getting unstable people to prove games make people more violent is an example of that.

Or they'll get focus groups made of fans of some other series and end up trying to ape that series.

There's a plethora of bad motives, and bad methods that can bias a group really badly.

Of course the people getting the groups together aren't to blame on their own.

Societal pressures can make focus groups liars. The need for acceptance make their answers conform with everyone else instead of saying how they really feel. It's not always the case, but it skews the results.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7405-Damn-Fine-Coffee
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7161-Perfect-Pasta-Sauce
Jim talks about focus groups, and points out flaws, more specifically in Damn Fine Coffee.

I think some attempts are made to try and capitalize on girl gamers. I'm sure we've all seen the pastel worlds of Bratz, or Barbie.

What about the franchises that were working fine with a non specific audience in mind (My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic), but then they were retooled into the same crap that was already made before? see the Equestria Girls movie controversy:

Where do they get the focus group this time? Why do they even NEED to do so since they already swim in money?

I can't pretend to know how well those do since games like that do. They still get made, so thats gotta be saying something, I guess.
Personally I don't really find it inclusive as opposed to segregational.

Honestly I doubt we'll ever know what caused the whole "boys don't want to play as girls" thing. Maybe nothing started it as it was always there?

And there is this thing you keep implying that it was always there.

If there was a problem with girls or feminism with games in the 90's then we should have seen it already. Remember the shitstorms that were made when Mortal Kombat was made? or about the "controversy" (and i use that word veeeeeeery loosely) of "Night Trap", where "you" murder innocent women and politicians made a hearing to ban it?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/NightTrap?from=Main.NightTrap


If a game they didn't bother to play for 1 minute to see the premise of "you" being a cop that is supposed to protect women is enough to make a hearing, therefore, by virtue of a variation of this trope:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MissingWhiteWomanSyndrome

..i can definitely say that, if there was a white feminist woman with a...shall we say.. "problem" with the games she played, then we could hear the sirens of the Police and the plastic burning from Jupiter.

As for becoming a champion, you can't do it for feedback, and you can't count of feedback. You have to do it because you want to. Because you've got some kind of passion for it. If you're lucky, people learn about you. It helps to go to get word of mouth advertisement, getting on youtube, or escapist, and talking up your points often, and with some reliability.
Most importantly, despite getting kicked, or praised, you have to want to do it.

The human organism desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization. That feedback is what makes possible this kind of passion. Without it, or a negative one, it can send you into a depression because people keep insisting there is something WRONG with you.

Hell, they even made a videogame about trying to make a girl regain her will to live after being told many times:

While you don't send a clown in to fix a nuclear reactor, you aren't going to get your point across if no one wants to listen to you. Anita, and Girlwriteswhat have the same problem to me in that their delivery is extremely dry.
Being talked to through a pokerface and a monotonal nature with a fairly bland appearance will mess with my interest level. That's just me speaking from my point of view, mind you.
It's why I prefer Jim Sterling over Anita.

GWW makes her videos just to make a point, not to entertain. She did it because apparently the blogs weren't enough to make people listen to her due to constant abuse of Ad Hominem. Men's rights activists are regularly dismissed as crazy, delusional, and misogynist simply by virtue of being men's rights activists. She started making videos instead of writing, because she was being called a guy who's mad at women because he can't get laid; and/or a fat, ugly woman desperate to hold onto the only man that would be in a relationship with her by pandering to him.

It was the last resort to make her point across. Complaining about the delivery is like complaining that Anita uses a shitton of make up and lots of things to make herself look good on camera, like she doesn't have confidence on her own body or something.

https://twitter.com/Bendilin/status/356947874661154818/photo/1
Oh

When dealing with something as batshit ridiculous as "a woman accused a cab driver of rape, just to avoid paying 35$ bucks" we need a straight, dry, non sarcastic delivery to let the audience know that this is fucking real.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2009/05/15/edmonton-cab-driver-lawsuit.html

Besides, if you don't like dry delivery, then i take you didn't like Kreia from Knights of The Old Republic 2.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

-snip-

Kinda falls into that group of stuff that goes down badly because they listened to market testers and fsulty focus groups, no?

Why do they do it? I'm no mind reader, but I imagine either the desire to make more money, or "good intentions," ya know, the sort the road to hell is paved with?

Businesses get dumb sooner or later.

Oh come on, we don't even see people railing the gaming industry on sexism/feminism on the news -now- aside from a short stint on Anita a while ago, do we? I'm waiting for sensational madness that makes anything I've said extremely reasonable, and sane. Heck, I've expected it for years, but maybe I missed it?

Violence is easiest to use to scare people, though. At least over feminism, and sexism. It's a lot easier to use as a tool to get ratings.

I agree that we do like judgement. We like getting responses. Still, when you campaign for something, you have to make yourself known, or be interesting enough for word of mouth to spread.

While it would be nice if I got noticed by some bigshot outside of the forum, or people in general, I realistically know it's absurdly unlikely.

It's a shame that a yourtube channel was GWW's last resort, sinc that's one of the best ways you can get out there. Make your voice heard often, and as loud as possible.

Hey, it's just my opionion on GWW's and Anita's delivery. Both are pretty dry.
Entertaining, and getting a point across are not mutually exclusive, IMO. Despite that, however, there's room for both extremes and everything in between. My opinion is just that. If you enjoy either of their deliveries, that's fine.

I never played that game unfortunately, so I can't comment on Kriea. I doubt she talks in a monotonal way for 30 minutes, though.

 

[Darmani]

"I have no idea what the fuck you mean here. If by "proving herself" you mean Samus, i am pretty sure that blowing up Eldrictch Abominations that would make "The Thing" of John Carpenter blush, AND the fact that in the Prime series she gets people from the Galactic Federation to greet her in awe an inspiration should be proof enough of her worth."

It isn't for Batman, Wolverine, Spider-man, Dexter, Jack Ryan, almost any Bruce willis character, Bruce Banner, and Dr. Strange. Second movie like clockwork whatever there successes they feel hurt and undermined by the losses or sheer STRESS of the battle. And how does the game open. Yes it does recontextualize events. inserting depressing tragedy or fear and angst where it was mostly passported before. But Metroid has always been eerie and even macabre. Even with the opening of Super Metroid, at a time most nintendo properties were all sunshine Samus sounds melacholy, distant, and even morose. This is followed up in Fusion as well where she names a disembodied voice after a dead commander.
This is a pretty grim character. Seeing her in a tale where she experiences grimness but isn't the cause of it is a way to deepen the setting, redefine the character, and maintain a sense of heroism.
Other M gives us a "small" victory admist a tragic circumstance. Versus Super Metroid
where a great tragedy happened amongst celebrated circumstances. It opens with Samus plagued by the vision of her nearly dying and someone dying in her place and needing to kill a monster. she functions but is unnerved and unhappy even empty. This is continued with how she "feels" about accomplishing some great galactic good.
The universe sees her as a hero. She feels...numb and unsure and someone who saved her life, whatever their species, is gone even forgotten. Even if before the end of super metroid Samus never saw the baby as anything but a goal by it sacrificing itself. Merging with her. GIVING her energy that was affecting her. . .that could easily have an enormous impact.
I mention Bruce Willis because a near cliche of his movies is an opening encounter with or establishment with a child character and seeing how they reflect off him. its the opening to Hostage, Mercury Rising, and arguably the Sixth Sense or similar to it.
I liked that Samus didn't argue jurisdiction with Adam and that Adam didn't just immediately embrace her as one of the team. That would have rang false and a little cliche. I wonder if everyone misses how almost every encouter with the Marines starts with Samus and them aiming at each other. I masterfully love the emotional thread and manipulations the story pulls off making you tense and unsure, even hating Adam as he's openly authoritative and restricting.
I like how the weapons and so on are handled feels boss and new and like I'm in a tense situation and have to be careful plus I feel powerful or expert like. using the right tool assigned for the job.
I do feel they messed some things up. I agree with Korval points happen in the plot that have no after the facts are to light justification, the hellrun, but I don't see it with Adams knock out of Samus he's plainly doing this to disable her and entrusting her with his mission as he wants to save her, won't trust her to face the metroids, and believes if not incapacitated she'd disobey orders to save him. Yes it was a contrived heroic sacrifice, but when do we come down on those as establishing validation for abusive relationships? Oh right when it stars gamings virgin mary.

 

[Ringo666]

yep gaming especially retro is the new Ramones tshirt.great vid. Jim!

 

[spacecowboy86]

Damn, Jim's on to me.

Guess I have to start bouncing my balls around on some new gamer site, everyone here is getting too clever.

 

[Sir. Jasper Colinwell]

I hope we just make progress on why there aren't enough Female Protagonists soon.
Because i wanna talk about why there aren't enough Black Protagonists. (Male and Female respectively.)