Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.
I never said that was the case? Red Dead Redemption was pretty well written as a whole.
More than a few games I played had well written male protagonists.
And a handful of times there were well written women.
Of course there were drek writing for both genders in my experience, too.
They aren't always interchangeable, IMO. People do happen to react to men, and women differently at times. Frankly I think it's an undeniable truth for the world in general. Sometimes I appreciate it when games aknowledge this.
Gender doesn't make someone a well-written character. Gender of the protagonist won't make a difference in a game unless you want your game filled with gender stereotypes. Well-written male and female characters are really exactly the same. They are interchangeable.
I never said that was the case? Red Dead Redemption was pretty well written as a whole.
More than a few games I played had well written male protagonists.
And a handful of times there were well written women.
Of course there were drek writing for both genders in my experience, too.
They aren't always interchangeable, IMO. People do happen to react to men, and women differently at times. Frankly I think it's an undeniable truth for the world in general. Sometimes I appreciate it when games aknowledge this.
They are interchangeable because gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of. The only reason people think otherwise is because of gender stereotypes they can't seem to get rid of. Well-written stories don't need to have someone's gender make a real difference. So I don't see how games where picking your gender but the gender not being a big deal is a problem. Sure, stories can acknowledge how people view a character, but that can go both ways, good and bad. Discrimination is not something only females know. On some level practically everyone can relate to that.
You certainly do have a point in saying gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of. Videogames, especially aren't constrained by anything but the limits of what they're played on, and the people that program it.
I'm not saying all well written stories need to make a big deal about gender, but well written stories can. That sort of variety is a good thing, IMO, even if it's not necessarily the best light of a person, male or female.
I'm definitely not saying I can't appreciate a game like Skyrim where gender is almost entirely an aesthetic choice, or pokemon where AFAIK gender doesn't matter at all. I just can't live off games like that, or the opposite purely.
Even in games like that, it's nice where there's instances like Dragon's Dogma, where ogres frenzy, and focus on nearby women out of excitement. There's an instance of a troupe of female bandits that a guy has to dress in drag to get in peacefully to interact with. For the most part, though, gender doesn't really matter in Dragon's Dogma, those events aside.
As annoiying as it is, the fact women can't have safe sex with women in Fable is different. The world reacts to your gender, too.
Basically, what I'm saying is there's room for both stories that do, or do not have a world or point of view that alters based on gender for me. I welcome both. Infact, at the end of the day, I'd say I need both.
My boyfriend asked me the other day why this stuff still annoys me so much: because it never goes away for me. I'm not going to wake up a dude one day and then never face this stupid bullshit ever again. Every single time I meet another gamer, or dare to use mic, this fucking issue comes up.
I can't think of anything to say here that isn't overstepping my bounds, so I'm just going to acknowledge your response and say nothing except that I'm sorry for the prejudice you face.
Blue Ranger said:
They are interchangeable because gender has nothing to do with what people are capable of.
I wonder if "gender" is the word you actually mean here. Gender does not refer to the biological differences between the sexes, but rather the social ones; it describes what roles a given society expects them to fill, in other words. Gender is that aspect of the character that is shaped by the world he lives in, and while it's not impossible to tell a story where gender doesn't matter, it does require the story to go out of its way to avoid such things. I don't think Rebel_Raven is wrong for wanting a game about someone who spent all her life being told she was supposed to get the Happy Meal with the ponies instead of the Transformers in them, yet is now in the position of being an action hero or whatever. If such a character can overcome the social pressure to defer to men, for example, but still keep those aspects of feminine gender she wants to keep, then that sounds like an interesting story to me.
Blue Ranger said:
I don't see how games where picking your gender but the gender not being a big deal is a problem.
It's not a problem, really. It's probably even progressive. It might come off as whitewashing gender inequality issues, but that would be a problem with a specific game's presentation, not a categorical problem.
I am familiar with Korval's blog. But it starts from an assumption of Samus character when this set out to define it. This was rejected because... it wasn't as appealling by what was made before with the sop excuse and newbies wouldn't get it.
So you say before that the games had nothing regarding plot and characterization, which would mean that anyone playing them would get it cause its not that difficult, and yet you say that M:OM was made for newcomers because it IS too difficult to "get into" the franchise.
......right.
Funny I was new to metroid, I mostly got it. I saw it had flaws but liked it. It didn't despite what butthurt fans keep saying "throw out" Metroid Prime so much as de-emphasized that part.
The problem is fans of Samus came to the conclusion, on their own, Samus having maternal feelings for the baby was bad.
Or, it could be that the intro of Super Metroid made ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that Samus didn't have 2 shits about the Baby Metroid:
Otherwise, she would have shown some restrain or worry when she send the Baby to the scientist on the space station. She didn't complain nor expressed in a monologue (like she does on M:OM or Fusion) that it HAD to be done DESPITE her feelings. There is none of that, and therefore the way M:OM presents it is just a bad Retcon from many many more to come. She could be sad AFTER the baby who defended her out of instinct died, but not from the VERY SECOND she meet the thing, which is what M:OM implies.
I can put to fanfic and other articles indicating this. For the most part she was blank as a character with lots of ideas built around her coming to a consensus with minor input from the author.
Minor input or not, there IS an input that Sakamoto was in full control to do as he pleased. He was the director of Super Metroid after all. Hell, even Retro was in constant watch by Nintendo and Shigeru Miyamoto (yes, that guy) when they made Metroid Prime, and was developers the japanese way (and sadly, that wasn't still enough for the franchize to be popular in its homeland, but for Westerns it was excellent). So, if there was something he wanted to do before, he could have done it....and he did.
He made sure that on ALL his works there was a pattern on the way Samus reacts to stuff:
Samus Aran is shot down, loses her superpowers, is left with a catsuit and a pistol that can only stun something and even then just once every 2 seconds. Between her and where she needs to go is a large Space Pirate ship, crawling with people who would like nothing better than to tear her limb from limb. She looks carefully at this situation and says, "Fuck it; I'm gonna Solid Snake this shit!" And then does it.
Samus Aran is being hunted by a sentient parasite that's using her own power armor against her. She can't last more than a few seconds in a fight against this creature. At one point, she hears the ominous footsteps of the monster. She's heard it before, only this time it's waiting for her. It's directly in her way. She's got no chance in this fight. But she jumps down there anyway. She can't kill SA-X, but if she does it right, she can get past it.
Samus Aran is confronted by a planet made of a living, corruptive force that has already consumed an entire species, as well as three of the best hunters in the galaxy. This same force has infested her body and is starting to consume her. She takes one look at this planet and decides to go down there, find a vulnerable spot, and blow it straight to hell.
The GF military tries to sack Zebes and failed. Samus, one woman, goes in and cleans it out. This happens again and again in the games. The Ing fought a two-decades long war against the Luminoth and were literally minutes away from wining (Ever notice that the energy transfer module is taken from an Ing when he's just outside the last bit of energy on Light Aether? That's a good bit of visual storytelling), until Samus came along and saved the day. By herself. In Corruption, when Dark Samus personally attacks Norion, there are four of the most badass bounty hunters in the galaxy present. When Dark Samus dives through the window and starts shooting, which one of these four doesn't get shot? Of all the 3 bounty hunters, who had the willpower to overcome Phason?
For my money, Samus Aran is defined by her boundless courage. There is no task so big that Samus won't take on. Stop alien threats to the galaxy? End a decade's long war while she's in the neighborhood? Halt invasions from beyond the galaxy? And so on.
That element is present in the majority of games (even with the Prime series out of the timeline, the mayority of games of the series belong to Sakamoto), and a pattern is created. If Sakamoto didn't want this to happen cause he wanted to tell a story for later, he could have prevented it at any moment during development.
Also, if the following scene doesn't speak volumes for her character without a word, then i dont know what is:
The author sought to redefine the character along lines he felt more comfortable with and started by focusing on Samus's most distinct trait her gender and famous relationshop with the Metroid hatchling that bonded to her and saved her life.
He used this as a means to redefine the character. WE KNEW THIS WAS COMING YOUR FANFICS WILL BE RUINED
The interviews made it clear that he didn't use M:OM to tell a story of Samus, he did it because he wanted to make a political statement. So i dont see where did you get the idea that he cares about her character:
This didn't make it correct, ignores that "proving herself" was ultimately to herself and she reasserted herself the whole time.
I have no idea what the fuck you mean here. If by "proving herself" you mean Samus, i am pretty sure that blowing up Eldrictch Abominations that would make "The Thing" of John Carpenter blush, AND the fact that in the Prime series she gets people from the Galactic Federation to greet her in awe an inspiration should be proof enough of her worth.
If that ever worked on a court of law, then most cases will end with just a witness saying: "HE DID IT! I WAS THERE" Case closed. Justice has been served.
Samus taking orders from the highest ranking officer of the army who's property it was on the scene. In tense situaiton like exploring a likely compromised vessel for survivors after proven damaged and infested with enemies? SEXISM
Soooooo apparently the woman that cleans this kind of disasters for a living apparently isn't capable of doing just that again WITHOUT the GF because........because? Apparently Fusion doesn't exist in your timeline.
Samus having PTSD flashback for 40 seconds while she's attacked in 2:30 cutscene performing all sorts of flips and shots and screwing up the resolve to reactivate suit in midair while being crushed by giant spacedragon SEXISM (according to Korval the hero is Anthony... uhm yep the guy knocked aside is the hero)
PTSD doesnt work that way. If she EVER had PTSD then all the Ridley battles should have a moment like that. She did suffer from it in the manga but she got over it, you know why? because that is not PTSD, that is just a plot device. PTSD is incurable and you cant just get over it, even in this galaxy far far away and years into the future where medicine should ALSO be on top of the line, there is still people that use glasses instead of eye surgery or even contact lenses (I am talking about the Tutorial guy in M:OM).
So doing badass stunts instead of AFFECTING THE PLOT is what a proper hero does? May i present you with this trope?:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MilesGloriosus
Or this famous quote: According to a loose enough definition of 'hero', we qualify. Well, more or less. The point is that good deeds were done and we were nearby.-Red Mage
Adam "The greatest military mind that commanded everyone to split like an Scooby Doo cartoon when not even together could do shit" and the others idiots are the heroes because they actually move the plot forward than the supposed heroine.
Remember Korval (and everyone else) definition of Strong Character?
What is a "strong character?" It doesn't really have anything to do with strength, rebelliousness, or things of that nature.
Narrative is a non-linear combination of three elements: plot, character, and theme. A strong character is one who's actions directly affect the plot. Strong characters drive the plot directly; they are the most important characters to the plot. And while other characters may affect them in some way, those characters only affect the plot in the way that they effect the strong characters. Bruce Wayne and the Joker are strong characters in The Dark Knight. Alfred is a well-drawn and important character, but he's not strong because he never does anything that directly affects the plot.
Strong characters are the agents of the plot, the movers-and-shakers of the story. The ones the plot is built around. The reason the "strong female character" is a litmus test of sorts for feminism is because... there really aren't that many of them. Which means that females in fiction, by and large, only have an indirect effect on the plot. This speaks to a more passive, supportive role for women in general, which ties into the whole "feminine" ideal that many would like to see women not forced into.
And conveniently enough, the other females of the story are equally as useless compared to the manly men. I wonder, what is the definition for when the cast of one gender is portrayed as ineffectual and weak compared to the cast of the opposite sex who get shit done? ......fuck, i cant remember. Oh well.
Adam telling you what to do and expecting it done without justifying his orders to you (well actually he did and later we know WHY he's being secretive AND distant) SEXISM
Except that even in the flashbacks where we are supposed to "get" his character and why Samus respects him, he STILLS acts cold, secretive AND distant. He is always like this, and we are not given a proper reason why would Samus would consider him a father figure when the fucking CHZO where the ones that revive her after the Ridley incident AND gave her the suit (portrayed both in the manga and Zero Mission, by Sakamoto)
And lets not forget the gem that the scene with Adam shooting Samus in the back FIRST, before shooting the deadly Metroid that was about to attack her. Did we get a proper reason as for why he did that, or why Samus doesnt even PROTEST to the mere fact she got shoot by her "trusted" mentor that almost got her killed? no?
It's not -just- focus groups that I'm blaming. It's the people that get the focus groups together. They look for people who'll confirm what they want to hear over what people in general think. Your example of focus testers getting unstable people to prove games make people more violent is an example of that.
Or they'll get focus groups made of fans of some other series and end up trying to ape that series.
There's a plethora of bad motives, and bad methods that can bias a group really badly.
Of course the people getting the groups together aren't to blame on their own.
Societal pressures can make focus groups liars. The need for acceptance make their answers conform with everyone else instead of saying how they really feel. It's not always the case, but it skews the results.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7405-Damn-Fine-Coffee
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7161-Perfect-Pasta-Sauce
Jim talks about focus groups, and points out flaws, more specifically in Damn Fine Coffee.
I think some attempts are made to try and capitalize on girl gamers. I'm sure we've all seen the pastel worlds of Bratz, or Barbie.
What about the franchises that were working fine with a non specific audience in mind (My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic), but then they were retooled into the same crap that was already made before? see the Equestria Girls movie controversy:
Where do they get the focus group this time? Why do they even NEED to do so since they already swim in money?
I can't pretend to know how well those do since games like that do. They still get made, so thats gotta be saying something, I guess.
Personally I don't really find it inclusive as opposed to segregational.
Honestly I doubt we'll ever know what caused the whole "boys don't want to play as girls" thing. Maybe nothing started it as it was always there?
And there is this thing you keep implying that it was always there.
If there was a problem with girls or feminism with games in the 90's then we should have seen it already. Remember the shitstorms that were made when Mortal Kombat was made? or about the "controversy" (and i use that word veeeeeeery loosely) of "Night Trap", where "you" murder innocent women and politicians made a hearing to ban it?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/NightTrap?from=Main.NightTrap
If a game they didn't bother to play for 1 minute to see the premise of "you" being a cop that is supposed to protect women is enough to make a hearing, therefore, by virtue of a variation of this trope:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MissingWhiteWomanSyndrome
..i can definitely say that, if there was a white feminist woman with a...shall we say.. "problem" with the games she played, then we could hear the sirens of the Police and the plastic burning from Jupiter.
As for becoming a champion, you can't do it for feedback, and you can't count of feedback. You have to do it because you want to. Because you've got some kind of passion for it. If you're lucky, people learn about you. It helps to go to get word of mouth advertisement, getting on youtube, or escapist, and talking up your points often, and with some reliability.
Most importantly, despite getting kicked, or praised, you have to want to do it.
The human organism desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization. That feedback is what makes possible this kind of passion. Without it, or a negative one, it can send you into a depression because people keep insisting there is something WRONG with you.
Hell, they even made a videogame about trying to make a girl regain her will to live after being told many times:
While you don't send a clown in to fix a nuclear reactor, you aren't going to get your point across if no one wants to listen to you. Anita, and Girlwriteswhat have the same problem to me in that their delivery is extremely dry.
Being talked to through a pokerface and a monotonal nature with a fairly bland appearance will mess with my interest level. That's just me speaking from my point of view, mind you.
It's why I prefer Jim Sterling over Anita.
GWW makes her videos just to make a point, not to entertain. She did it because apparently the blogs weren't enough to make people listen to her due to constant abuse of Ad Hominem. Men's rights activists are regularly dismissed as crazy, delusional, and misogynist simply by virtue of being men's rights activists. She started making videos instead of writing, because she was being called a guy who's mad at women because he can't get laid; and/or a fat, ugly woman desperate to hold onto the only man that would be in a relationship with her by pandering to him.
It was the last resort to make her point across. Complaining about the delivery is like complaining that Anita uses a shitton of make up and lots of things to make herself look good on camera, like she doesn't have confidence on her own body or something.
When dealing with something as batshit ridiculous as "a woman accused a cab driver of rape, just to avoid paying 35$ bucks" we need a straight, dry, non sarcastic delivery to let the audience know that this is fucking real.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2009/05/15/edmonton-cab-driver-lawsuit.html
Besides, if you don't like dry delivery, then i take you didn't like Kreia from Knights of The Old Republic 2.
Kinda falls into that group of stuff that goes down badly because they listened to market testers and fsulty focus groups, no?
Why do they do it? I'm no mind reader, but I imagine either the desire to make more money, or "good intentions," ya know, the sort the road to hell is paved with?
Businesses get dumb sooner or later.
Oh come on, we don't even see people railing the gaming industry on sexism/feminism on the news -now- aside from a short stint on Anita a while ago, do we? I'm waiting for sensational madness that makes anything I've said extremely reasonable, and sane. Heck, I've expected it for years, but maybe I missed it?
Violence is easiest to use to scare people, though. At least over feminism, and sexism. It's a lot easier to use as a tool to get ratings.
I agree that we do like judgement. We like getting responses. Still, when you campaign for something, you have to make yourself known, or be interesting enough for word of mouth to spread.
While it would be nice if I got noticed by some bigshot outside of the forum, or people in general, I realistically know it's absurdly unlikely.
It's a shame that a yourtube channel was GWW's last resort, sinc that's one of the best ways you can get out there. Make your voice heard often, and as loud as possible.
Hey, it's just my opionion on GWW's and Anita's delivery. Both are pretty dry.
Entertaining, and getting a point across are not mutually exclusive, IMO. Despite that, however, there's room for both extremes and everything in between. My opinion is just that. If you enjoy either of their deliveries, that's fine.
I never played that game unfortunately, so I can't comment on Kriea. I doubt she talks in a monotonal way for 30 minutes, though.
"I have no idea what the fuck you mean here. If by "proving herself" you mean Samus, i am pretty sure that blowing up Eldrictch Abominations that would make "The Thing" of John Carpenter blush, AND the fact that in the Prime series she gets people from the Galactic Federation to greet her in awe an inspiration should be proof enough of her worth."
It isn't for Batman, Wolverine, Spider-man, Dexter, Jack Ryan, almost any Bruce willis character, Bruce Banner, and Dr. Strange. Second movie like clockwork whatever there successes they feel hurt and undermined by the losses or sheer STRESS of the battle. And how does the game open. Yes it does recontextualize events. inserting depressing tragedy or fear and angst where it was mostly passported before. But Metroid has always been eerie and even macabre. Even with the opening of Super Metroid, at a time most nintendo properties were all sunshine Samus sounds melacholy, distant, and even morose. This is followed up in Fusion as well where she names a disembodied voice after a dead commander.
This is a pretty grim character. Seeing her in a tale where she experiences grimness but isn't the cause of it is a way to deepen the setting, redefine the character, and maintain a sense of heroism.
Other M gives us a "small" victory admist a tragic circumstance. Versus Super Metroid
where a great tragedy happened amongst celebrated circumstances. It opens with Samus plagued by the vision of her nearly dying and someone dying in her place and needing to kill a monster. she functions but is unnerved and unhappy even empty. This is continued with how she "feels" about accomplishing some great galactic good.
The universe sees her as a hero. She feels...numb and unsure and someone who saved her life, whatever their species, is gone even forgotten. Even if before the end of super metroid Samus never saw the baby as anything but a goal by it sacrificing itself. Merging with her. GIVING her energy that was affecting her. . .that could easily have an enormous impact.
I mention Bruce Willis because a near cliche of his movies is an opening encounter with or establishment with a child character and seeing how they reflect off him. its the opening to Hostage, Mercury Rising, and arguably the Sixth Sense or similar to it.
I liked that Samus didn't argue jurisdiction with Adam and that Adam didn't just immediately embrace her as one of the team. That would have rang false and a little cliche. I wonder if everyone misses how almost every encouter with the Marines starts with Samus and them aiming at each other. I masterfully love the emotional thread and manipulations the story pulls off making you tense and unsure, even hating Adam as he's openly authoritative and restricting.
I like how the weapons and so on are handled feels boss and new and like I'm in a tense situation and have to be careful plus I feel powerful or expert like. using the right tool assigned for the job.
I do feel they messed some things up. I agree with Korval points happen in the plot that have no after the facts are to light justification, the hellrun, but I don't see it with Adams knock out of Samus he's plainly doing this to disable her and entrusting her with his mission as he wants to save her, won't trust her to face the metroids, and believes if not incapacitated she'd disobey orders to save him. Yes it was a contrived heroic sacrifice, but when do we come down on those as establishing validation for abusive relationships? Oh right when it stars gamings virgin mary.
I hope we just make progress on why there aren't enough Female Protagonists soon.
Because i wanna talk about why there aren't enough Black Protagonists. (Male and Female respectively.)
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