Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

[Redd the Sock]

Jim, I sadly have to side with the crowd that calls this a waste of time. I've never made a death threat. Hell, I've told other forums to call off the name calling and insults. I don't approve of such things, but I also know that the people you're talking about don't give the proverbial rat's ass about my approval. They don't care about anyone's. We're talking about sociopaths that aren't going to grow up after a talking to. Some may even be encouraged by this because if they're trolls, then seeing how much they can blow up the internet by a small comment is their Raison D'etre. We have tried ignoring. We have tried moderators. We have tried banhammers. Some have even had IPs tracked and the cops called on them. Nothing has stopped them, so I fail to see what some additional shaming will achieve. The sociopaths don't care, and the trolls are mockingly laughing that "the fat pundant on the escapist gave us a talking to like we'd listen to him." This isn't a rerun of the Care Bears. People won't stop being jerks by it being pointed you they're being jerks.

So what do we do? It seems people don't want to live with it. Then again, we fear the obvious alternative. Internet trcked. Privacy lost. Thought police watching your every word. Open opportunity for things to be taken out of context or implies but not said. It just gets ugly. A less obvious solution might be a reward system: store discounts or early access for good karma or something, but then, we're usually hesitant for solutions that would cost money if they worked. STill, it'd probably be more effective than another lecture.

 

[Psychobabble]

.

 

[Jodah]

This just in: People are fucking retarded fuckwads who need to be fucking smacked upside the fucking head with a fucking dragon dildo. Fuck.

-_- Indeed. Some people aren't so very good. :/ To bad games are so darn likable.

Oh well. The good games we get are worth the trouble. Not that we need or should have to deal with trouble to get them/make them.

Spoiler: Also, I think you need this gif.

Bravo my good sir, not only did you provide a good response for my comment but you did so while posting my all time favorite gif. If there was a means of upvoting you on this site, I would do so. In triplicate.

 

[wisefatmatt]

You seem to have missed my initial point. I was actually annoyed at Jim's use of "we gamers" when talking about the actions of said tiny minority, as if the actions of said minority in any way represent anything about "gamers". I'd rather not be associated with those people and I find it rather tasteless for Jim to try and get people involved by linking them to those idiots.

It's like bell pointed out - the actions of that minority reflect on that minority, but the reactions of the surrounding majority are what establishes the character of that community. For instance - you say that talking about it over the internet is not going to affect change, and yet you are taking time out of your life to come argue at people that they specifically shouldn't be yelling about these assholes. This tells me two things.

1) You DO in fact believe that talking can affect change, else why would you be talking?

2) You would rather spend your efforts changing the people who want to make the community better instead of changing the people who want to make the community worse.

To wit:

And now please tell us what we actually should do?

Choose your battles better. Choose to make it clear to everyone what is and is not acceptable behavior from the community in which you find yourself. If a minority of assholes are being assholes, make sure that they hear that they are assholes, loudly and clearly, and immediately. Don't permit that minority to be the most vocal part of the community. Don't whinge about how pointless the effort is - make the effort anyway. Take the energy you're spending trying to argue with people who want things to improve and use that to argue against people who are being shitheads.

Say to those assholes: "Your behavior is unacceptable." Say to those who agree with Jim: "Keep fighting the good fight."

You have a voice, use it. What's more, use it to do what's right.

How could telling these people who consider death threats a legitimate way of communicating their displeasure that they're assholes possibly stop them? Why would they even care what we have to say? We don't mean anything to them. You would have a more productive time trying to convince a brick wall to move out of your way.

Besides, yelling back at them may show others we're not all raving nutcases, but who doesn't already know that people who send death threats are a minority? Even if we stand up to them, do you think the game journalist are going to report on how level heading people told these idiots they're wrong and should stop? It seems more likely to me that that they're just going to report that some nutcases decided to send death threats over a patch, since that's assuredly going to get more page views.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Ohhh, source?

Where did Hepler respond? what did she say?

From what I remember, basically responding to critics by calling them virgins.

I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either.

Getting that offensive and resorting to name calling probably wasn't the best way to go about things, because really, once an argument gets to that point things can only escalate from there. Much of her opposition already looked bad and many of them were indeed in the wrong... she didn't have to throw any punches. She looked better then them up until the point she said that.

The only way you win a fight on the internet is by not having one. Oh how much better our lives would be without twitter haha.

 

[zerabp]

Bravo Jim! Could not agree with this episode more. I do want to point out one insult you left out, cowards. They are all doing these things under anonymous user names and burner email accounts, they are all cowards. Spot on though minus that small and understandable oversight on your part.

Edit
I just read through on some of the other comments and I want to say confronting the behavior good idea, confronting the people exhibiting it? Not so much. While 9 out of ten of these people are just idiots who can't control their hyperbole, you never know which ones are actually willing and capable of following through with these threats. These people honestly need prosecuted, as freedom of speech does not cover threatening another human being with death and worse.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I'm still trying to come to terms with the apparent fact that people take those kinds of "threats" seriously.

 

[RickyChinese]

What we should be asking is why Helper and Fish were singled out... even though it should be obvious.

Phil Fish is really bad at interacting with people, especially when they're criticising him, but I don't really get where Hepler violated the 'don't be a dick' rule. As far as I can tell, Hepler's an obvious target because she's: unfortunate looking, a woman, associated with a game that's basically emblematic of the bioware dating sim/fanfic caliber writing/illusion of choice stuff, and is featured in a DA2 trailer describing the sexuality of characters nobody likes while being all of the above.

Where does 'don't be a dick' come into it?

 

[wisefatmatt]

The Phil Fish harassment. It wasn't just his remark about japanese games or his actions in IGTM. It was his actions since Fez was released where he has a "Holier than thou" attitude.

To be fair, Phil Fish was taking the harassment long BEFORE Fez was actually released. While I agree with you his actions after Fez's release were both colorful and lacking of taste, I also understand his need to vent five years worth of frustration.

And at the risk of repeating myself, he should have taking a boxing class or something because there's no winning an argument over the internet...

I recall two reasons people were harassing Fish before Fez's release.

The first reason was that his "Upcoming XBLA platformer Fez won the Seamus McNally Grand Prize, the top honour at last night's Independent Games Festival (IGF) Awards at GDC in San Francisco." Emphasis on the upcoming. He won an award for an unreleased game, which makes little to no sense to me.

Source 1: http://www.edge-online.com/news/gdc-2012-fez-wins-grand-prize-igf-awards/

Second, he later tweeted about winning said award in an incredibly offensive way that came off as abrasive. "i just won the grand prize at IGG tonight. suck my dick. choke on it."

Source 2: http://thewiredfishnetwork.com/2012/03/09/fez-creator-talks-smack-about-japanese-games-major-downplay-on-twitter/

Now, death threats are never warranted, but when you act like an abrasive jerk, you should expect the internet to respond in kind.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

This sort of attitude makes me fearful of going into the games industry at all, why should I put my time and love into something, that's only going to warrant threats from dickheads.

I love making them, but this community, is downright poisonous.

 

[wulf3n]

Ohhh, source?

Where did Hepler respond? what did she say?

From what I remember, basically responding to critics by calling them virgins.

I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either.

Getting that offensive and resorting to name calling probably wasn't the best way to go about things, because really, once an argument gets to that point things can only escalate from there. Much of her opposition already looked bad and many of them were indeed in the wrong... she didn't have to throw any punches.


She looked better then them up until the point she said that.

The only way you win a fight on the internet is by not having one. Oh how much better our lives would be without twitter haha.

Ok so now we have a source [http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/files/2012/02/Gaping.png] for said bad response lets take a step back to your previous post

You want to make games and not get such excessive negative comments or attention? Do the same thing you would do in any industry to avoid that outcome: Don't be a dick to everyone!

Now at the very beginning she wasn't being a dick to anyone, she expressed an opinion. Now maybe she made it worse by responding to said trolls, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not being a dick that gets you hate, it's having an differing opinion.

... Which is basically what Jim concluded at the end of the video.

tldr:

She wasn't singled out because she was acting like a dick, she was singled out because she had an opinion.

 

[drschplatt]

Hear hear! I wanted to applaud after the video. I get so sick and tired of all the crap people pile on individuals who haven't done anything other that have a differing viewpoint.

The deal cracked me up as well.

 

[Something Amyss]

I also didn't like her commentary on wanting to skip gameplay. It's not that the idea is bad, it's that there's an entire genre of games that already do it (visual novels with choose your own adventure aspects) that she could have gotten involved with instead.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few games with stories outside the "visual novel" category. I actually don't know why anything she says impacts anything she's working on. She's simply a writer who was asked what she'd do. She's not in charge of the gameplay department and is in no position to offer changes. She didn't seem at all like she didn't want to be where she was. She simply wanted the option to experience the stories of games without playing through the other parts.

It's really not all that unreasonable. No more so than skipping the story to go straight to the shooty bits.

pointless episode... This stuff is not done by "gaming culture", but by some crazy fucks that are stupid.
They don't watch your episodes and if they do, they won't get your point because they're, well, crazy.
This Episode was like a newspaper headline: "Eating babies is BAD!"

It's more like a newspaper headline reading "Eating Babies Is BAD!" in a culture where eating babies is done without considering the consequences. I mean, you can say "well, no shit," but gamer and internet culture tends to not put a lot of thought into this shit. Why? Because it can be done so readily and with no perceived backlash. People always play the "vocal minority" card, yet here we are, silently condoning their acts.

It's funny how many of the "entitled little shits" mentioned in the video are popping up all over this thread. Opening their mouths and showing just what type of people they really are.

So much "shut up and continue producing so I can consume" with absolutely no grasp of the situation. A lot of people appear to have grasped the point, the rest just drove it home further.

Which is exactly why the topic needs to keep being raised.

 

[Makabriel]

I'm still trying to come to terms with the apparent fact that people take those kinds of "threats" seriously.

There's a difference between "I'm going to kill your kids" and "I know the names of your kids, their school schedule, where they go to school and the best way to pick them off." One's a flippant remark, the other is a valid cause for concern.

 

[wisefatmatt]

One day Internet anonimity will be a thing of the past. We'll realize that as a collective we don't deserve the privilege of voicing our opinions without accountability. It will be a huge sacrifice but it will be a better world where sick fucks like these will either cower in their rooms, careful to hide their true nature or be tossed in a cage where they belong. Maybe then we'll be able to tell our children to take a long, hard look at those freaks and make sure to never become anything like them.

I'm ashamed when I think monsters like these feel welcome in a community I'm so attached to, that I might have any overlap with these creeps. This society is sick and the worst part is most people don't realize just how far the infection has spread. This is a serious fucking issue and anybody pushing it aside while they roll their eyes is only making it worse. If you are to lazy and self-absorbed to do anything then don't bother but at least don't get in the way and certainly don't build a wall for these criminals to hide behind as many are doing apparently without their own knowing.

I'd hate to see a small minority forcing me to give up my anonymity. These people are awful, but there should be some middle ground here. I mean, if you receive death threats, inform the police. They can track these idiots down and I still get to be anonymous. To simply force the majority of decent people to give up their rights because a few idiots abuse the right isn't remotely fair.

 

[grey_space]

snip.

Do you really think vilifying people will somehow stop these nutcases? If these people are unhinged enough to think that the best course of action is to threaten the lives of family members over a game patch, or any other reason, that if I say "Hey now, that's way to harsh. You are scum for even saying that" that these idiots will somehow stop being idiots? I just don't see how that would work.

Not all of them, no.

Maybe not even most of them

But even if it gets through to even a tiny number of these people that what they are saying is pure madness then whatever outcry we can manage is worth it I feel.

Ignoring this level of bullying/nastiness does not make it go away.

In my view it is a form of tacit acceptance even.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I'm still trying to come to terms with the apparent fact that people take those kinds of "threats" seriously.

There's a difference between "I'm going to kill your kids" and "I know the names of your kids, their school schedule, where they go to school and the best way to pick them off." One's a flippant remark, the other is a valid cause for concern.

Yes. There is.

Though, I think I missed where that second scenario played out in this particular instance.

 

[Right Hook]

Good episode, however I feel the intended audience will have no trouble tuning out your message. At the very least, hopefully it will further spurn those of us who aren't complete shits to continue to speak out against this behavior because it is absolutely not okay morally and damaging to the industry.

How does this reflect badly on anyone OTHER than the tossers who decided this was a good idea? I'm not sticking up for them, a line was very clearly crossed, but I've seen people tell Jim Sterling they would like to see him and his family die badly for not liking games enough or too much. That didn't cause a stir or reflect on horrible gamer culture, it just made it clear that like all the other things with people in it, there are assholes.

If anythings damaging the industry it's people making a massive stink about this sort of shit only when it affects women

Ideally you'd be right and I think you make a good point but people will always make sweeping judgements about a group based on what individuals from that group do. Gaming culture has a pretty bad reputation in some circles and maybe we shouldn't be worried about that, after all, we know that the majority of us aren't like this. However I think that shrugging our shoulders at it will only make it worse and may prevent some people from getting involved in gaming in the future, whether working on or playing them and that will have a negative effect on all of us. I'd hate to see others miss out on good experience because the environment was allowed to become a toxic cesspool to anybody who wasn't firmly in "the group". I do agree that it shouldn't be us running to the defense of women alone, everyone should be protected from this kind of abuse.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Now at the very beginning she wasn't being a dick to anyone, she expressed an opinion. Now maybe she made it worse by responding to said trolls, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not being a dick that gets you hate, it's having an differing opinion.

... Which is basically what Jim concluded at the end of the video.

tldr:

She wasn't singled out because she was acting like a dick, she was singled out because she had an opinion.

No, because things weren't this bad at the start, and had it ended with it being a disagreement about an opinion long ago, then this thread, this video and all discussions about her would likely not be taking place now. Of course you will get people disagreeing (and hating) you when you have a differing opinion on the internet, but the internet is a pretty ADD place. That stuff dies down and is forgotten soon enough once the next thing comes along, because at the end of the day most people don't care, as long as you don't personally offend them. But things go into a whole other ballpark one you start baiting and fanning fires. Granted Helper did it only once ([small]maybe a few times? didn't keep track of the whole thing[/small]) but if you piss off internet asses enough, they'll never let it go.

Phil Fish is really bad at interacting with people, especially when they're criticising him, but I don't really get where Hepler violated the 'don't be a dick' rule.

Rather then taking the highroad to the situation last year, she called her opposition 'jealous virgins'. Apparently that stuck as someone clearly didn't want to let it go; someone who likely was a "jealous virgin" (lol).

 

[daxterx2005]

Have to wait a whole week to see a Dragon sex organ....
Challenge accepted.