Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

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Atmos Duality

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And here I would hope a journalist would know the difference between "entitled" and "false sense of entitlement".
*Sigh* Sensationalist buzzwords...

Anyway.

The gaming public, anonymous or otherwise needs to lose some of their hyperbolic anger, or at the very least some of the more -*blind*- rage. (emphasis on blind) I realize what I ask for is impossible, given the internet's penchant for turning regular people into self-righteous, raging assholes, but I ask it regardless.
(and no, don't bother posting 'that' Penny Arcade strip in reply to this; we've all seen it)

Right now, I'm an advocate for more market -neutrality- between consumer and producer, largely because I think the exchange is way too polarized right now and it's creating an ever-growing rift in trust between the two.

As heavily pro-consumer as I am, I am not anti-producer because that's just stupid. I want producers to make good games and games they want to create and I want them to be compensated fairly so that the medium grows.

But how often do we see this:
A bad/mediocre game comes out, someone doesn't like the story, and it's suddenly the "worst thing ever".
They jump on facebook or twitter or whatever avenue they have to reach the object of their ire, and start throwing a tantrum.

Or going the other way, the fanatical, rabid, blind defensive loyalty some fans have for their game (Dark Souls springs to mind as a more recent subject) that pushes others away with its elitism and appeal for absolute conformity.

In that, I agree with Jim (even if our philosophy differs overall).
I believe that the market should punish producers who overstep sensible boundaries and twist the consumer's arm to make more profit for no effort, or sell shoddy productions. But I believe the market needs to do this in a rational manner.

And for those of you who are about to defend that sort of thinking: Death threats and remarks of the blackest sort don't suddenly become "cool" because it came from an anonymous nobody saying it. You aren't "cool" for being an asshole; you're just an asshole whose comments serve no useful purpose.

"Oh, it informs them we didn't like the product."
So do sales numbers, and those speak much louder than you ever could alone. But here's the thing: good/smart producers want rational critical feedback; not just hate mail and brown-nosing.

And that critical feedback needs an objective basis. If you really are that angry over a video game plot, type your rant out, read it a few times, and then delete it. No, really. Get it out of your system, calm the fuck down, and realize that it's just a goddamn VIDEO GAME.
 

wulf3n

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xPixelatedx said:
No, because things weren't this bad at the start, and had it ended with it being a disagreement about an opinion long ago, then this thread, this video and all discussions about her would likely not be taking place now. Of course you will get people disagreeing (and hating) you when you have a differing opinion on the internet, but the internet is a pretty sporadic place. That stuff dies down and is forgotten soon enough once the next thing comes along, because at the end of the day most people don't care, as long as you don't personally offend them. But things go into a whole other ballpark one you start baiting and fanning fires. Granted Helper did it only once ([small]maybe a few times? didn't keep track of the whole thing[/small]) but if you piss off internet asses enough, they'll never let it go.
It's the media that isn't letting it go, not the internet.

This issue did die down, then Hepler decides to leave Bioware to be with her family and pursue her own projects, and then this [http://metro.co.uk/2013/08/16/bioware-writer-quits-after-death-threats-to-family-3925970/] get published, and while I won't go so far as to call the writer a liar, their own source clearly states her reason for leaving, and everyone blows up, without bothering to check the facts.
 

Tsun Tzu

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wulf3n said:
It's the media that isn't letting it go, not the internet.

This issue did die down, then Hepler decides to leave Bioware to be with her family and pursue her own projects, and then this [http://metro.co.uk/2013/08/16/bioware-writer-quits-after-death-threats-to-family-3925970/] get published, and while I won't go so far as to call the writer a liar, their own source clearly states her reason for leaving, and everyone blows up, without bothering to check the facts.
This.

I imagine even Hepler is a bit annoyed by the sudden media attention when she's just trying to get started in a new job/field.
 

wisefatmatt

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grey_space said:
wisefatmatt said:
grey_space said:
Do you really think vilifying people will somehow stop these nutcases? If these people are unhinged enough to think that the best course of action is to threaten the lives of family members over a game patch, or any other reason, that if I say "Hey now, that's way to harsh. You are scum for even saying that" that these idiots will somehow stop being idiots? I just don't see how that would work.
Not all of them, no.

Maybe not even most of them

But even if it gets through to even a tiny number of these people that what they are saying is pure madness then whatever outcry we can manage is worth it I feel.

Ignoring this level of bullying/nastiness does not make it go away.

In my view it is a form of tacit acceptance even.
If you can find ANY evidence that shaming these idiots would convert ANY of them, maybe I would agree, but I just don't see the point of arguing with brick walls. I believe the best we can do is report these people to the authorities and maybe call for bans. Simply telling them they're doing something wrong seems pointless to me.
 

Saltyk

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Sep 12, 2010
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xPixelatedx said:
Saltyk said:
Who in their right mind would want to be a part of an industry where you can only be abused? Have your family threatened over a game?
And this is exactly what I feared some people might take from this Jimquisition. What you just stated is based on no facts what so ever. The people who 'get harassed to the point they leave' are in the smallest minority. As of right now, I am pretty sure it just consists of Helper and Fish.

What we should be asking is why Helper and Fish were singled out... even though it should be obvious.

You want to make games and not get such excessive negative comments or attention? Do the same thing you would do in any industry to avoid that outcome: Don't be a dick to everyone! This should be common sense I would think? Helper and Fish would have likely gotten chased off by internet threats even if they worked with movies or TV shows as well. They would have still had twitters, and still turned any negative feedback they got into drama. If this is an industry where you can only receive abuse, then please explain to me why the creator of Dust doesn't seem to have this problem? https://twitter.com/NoogyTweet

He recently jumped into the fray of gaming as well, and he's very much in public view. He's also probably not threaded daily or anything, either, even after making (what 4chan claims is) "a disgusting furry game". It's amazing but it is possible to make games and not be attacked constantly (as hundreds of other devs, writers and programmers will tell you).

It's as if being a nice person means people are nice back to you! Holy crap :eek: :eek:
Okay... You took my post out of context.

And I think you missed some points.

~Hepler did not quit BECAUSE of the threats. Even Jim said that in the video. So what you are stating that I took away from the video (amazing that you know what I took away from the video better than I do) is untrue.
~Even if Fish was a prick, not everyone who gets harassed is.
~Jim himself has more or less admitted that he got (and probably still gets) harassed. And, as I recall admitted that he did confront the trolls in the past. Till he learned that it didn't help. Even looking in the comments here you can see people implying he only made this video for the money and page views.
~Nothing justifies death threats. Ever.

I would ask what Hepler did to deserve abuse? She was targeted before she did anything other than have an opinion. So what did she do? Exist? And how many people ***** about how much Bioware sucks, now? Or how much Square sucks? Or how much EA sucks? Yes, some of it is deserved. But threatening their family? No. Fuck that noise. Fuck it with a dragon tongue dildo!

Not everyone does get abused. But many who are, don't deserve it. Some are merely doing their jobs or stating opinions. Reviewing a game and giving it a less than superb rating. Disagree with them, if you want. Fine. I disagree with lots of people. Still don't wanna strangle a puppy or anything.

But here's the big question:
What purpose does threatening to kill someone's family serve?

You can say whatever you want to make yourself feel better. Try to convince yourself that they deserved it. Or that it's normal and they should get a thicker skin. But all you are doing is defending the people who would use such disgusting tactics.

And let's be honest. How many writers in any developer do you know by name? Do you ever go and thank them? Do you think anyone thanks them for writing great games? I seriously doubt it. Any programers? Artists? Testers? Anyone at all? So, what I said was valid. You either get no recognition from fans, or death threats for your kids. Those who get praise are few and far between. And Hepler would have probably never been noteworthy if no one ever threatened her or her kids. We wouldn't even be having a conversation if people could exercise some restraint and maturity.
[sub]Also, if the news reports didn't drag up the death threats thing in writing about her departure from Bioware long after they were relevant...[/sub]

And honestly, the same applies to any other medium. Including TV and movies. Music. Even politics. So, it doesn't really matter. But, this is a gaming site. Jim talks about games. Using other media and communities to justify bad behavior in the gaming community is a false argument. You're still just defending the same people and trying to look reasonable. All you're saying is that it was all the victims fault. Shame on them for existing. They should have known better.

In the end, regardless of Hepler, Fish, the media, of what someone has done:

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE. PERIOD.
 

maddawg IAJI

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Retrograde said:
TWEWYFan said:
I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.
How? How does this represent me and other gamers? And yeah I am gonna take it personally. You're gonna slag off a group to which I proudly belong so fuck it, might as well have a pop at someone who can take it. Go on. How does this run off on me or anyone other than the assholes personally responsible?

Did you know that crazy One Direction fans stalk the mothers of the band just in case the boys ever visit their parents and send real death threats to real people for the crime of going out with a member of a boyband that they happen to love?

Does that paint a very dark picture of current gamer culture of music culture, or does it rather just make individual crazy bitches look crazy?
Considering that we, as gamers, have spent the last 20-30 years trying to paint ourselves as normal individuals who are not prone to violent outbursts, I'd said, yeah, this does paint a much bleaker picture.

In fact, what I'm shocked about is how you're playing devil's advocate with these individuals. With the way they act, they should not be accepted as part of our group. We should not recognize that these people are gamers. We recognize them for what they are, entitled brats and when these brats choose to harrass the artists and writers of our medium, we should shut them down instead of acting like a silent majority.

Whether or not you took part in the abuse doesn't matter. You and I didn't speak up and that makes us just as bad.
 

crazyarms33

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Retrograde said:
How does this reflect badly on anyone OTHER than the tossers who decided this was a good idea? I'm not sticking up for them, a line was very clearly crossed, but I've seen people tell Jim Sterling they would like to see him and his family die badly for not liking games enough or too much. That didn't cause a stir or reflect on horrible gamer culture, it just made it clear that like all the other things with people in it, there are assholes.

But how is it damaging to the industry that an unfortunate reality of the internet in the 21st century is that if you put yourself out there you will get shit from strangers.

If anythings damaging the industry it's people making a massive stink about this sort of shit only when it affects women.
I will take a stab at this I suppose. I'm an American and I have traveled abroad and thoroughly enjoyed it while trying to respect the other nation's culture. Yet whenever I meet a foreign student here in the States they always say "Oh, Americans are assholes abroad." The problem isn't that they're wrong, the problem is that while there are people like me who travel correctly, everyone assumes that the stereotype is true. The problem is that these tools paint all Americans that way just the way these guys presented the gaming community in a bad light because of their literal dickishness. And because they crossed a very obvious line, uneducated people will see the entire community negatively. The problem is that since this is such big news and people now know about it, if I went up to someone and said I was part of that community, then they would act on what they heard and judge me accordingly. Did I personally do something wrong? No. Did they make me look like a douche for having the same hobby as them? Yes. Vocal minorities always make their respective groups look bad and this is no different.

It's damaging to the industry because as gamers we constantly whine about how all games are turning into "COD clones" and cover based shooters, the ending of this game sucked, the graphics weren't what I expected, et cetera, et cetera. Then when someone does try something new, they get threatened for failing to meet an exact idea of how a game should be done based on one person's(or a few peoples') opinion(s). If as gamers we truly value diversity, then we have to understand that sometimes we won't get exactly what we want and going further, we must be OK with that. If we are not, then we have no one to blame but ourselves. Gaming is a hobby for tons of people and while some people take it more seriously than that, really all games are ultimately toys. But why on earth would someone want to try something new if the consequences of not meeting everyone's exact expectations are death threats to their family? Would you want to push the envelope if you knew that it would happen to your family? I know I would be extremely hesitant at best and would probably not do it at worst.

The massive stink you're talking about is not because it's a woman this time, its because they are talking about her family, specifically children who literally had no bearing on the game at all. You can say she didn't do a good job and that's fine, criticism is how progress is made, but when the victims of the threat are complete innocents whose only "crime" is being related to her, that is ridiculous. Now to be clear I am not saying threats are OK in any circumstance over a game. I am saying that if you disapprove of/didn't enjoy an artist's work and you criticize them for that, I have no problem. Once you threaten the artist, I have a problem. When you threaten a person's family because of a disagreement over a game, I have a serious problem. Does that make sense?
 

Gatx

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I feel like the kind of people who watch the Jimquistion already know this, and the kind of people who do that stuff probably aren't tuning in to the more intelligent side of videogame discussion anyway, so what is the point of this episode? A bad thing happened? It's not like the majority of gamers are like this, just a very vocal minority, so why are the rest of us getting subjected to these lectures?
 

K_Dub

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Dumb people being dumb. I'm just gonna try to not associate with people who believe that death threats are an appropriate response to anything. Just...just so dumb.
 

tardcore

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maddawg IAJI said:
Retrograde said:
TWEWYFan said:
I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.
How? How does this represent me and other gamers? And yeah I am gonna take it personally. You're gonna slag off a group to which I proudly belong so fuck it, might as well have a pop at someone who can take it. Go on. How does this run off on me or anyone other than the assholes personally responsible?

Did you know that crazy One Direction fans stalk the mothers of the band just in case the boys ever visit their parents and send real death threats to real people for the crime of going out with a member of a boyband that they happen to love?

Does that paint a very dark picture of current gamer culture of music culture, or does it rather just make individual crazy bitches look crazy?
Considering that we, as gamers, have spent the last 20-30 years trying to paint ourselves as normal individuals who are not prone to violent outbursts, I'd said, yeah, this does paint a much bleaker picture.

In fact, what I'm shocked about is how you're playing devil's advocate with these individuals. With the way they act, they should not be accepted as part of our group. We should not recognize that these people are gamers. We recognize them for what they are, entitled brats and when these brats choose to harrass the artists and writers of our medium, we should shut them down instead of acting like a silent majority.

Whether or not you took part in the abuse doesn't matter. You and I didn't speak up and that makes us just as bad.
Uh what? No he isn't playing Devil's advocate against these obviously insane individuals. He is simply stating that people who have committed no actual crime should not be tarred with the same brush as these impulse control issue morons, just because they happen to share the same hobby. And frankly do us all a favor and tone down your "we've done nothing" rhetoric because what the non-batshit insane portion of the community HAVE done, on a daily basis no less, is to NOT MAKE FUCKING DEATH THREATS AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE for insanely trivial fucking reasons, and instead have voiced our opinions politely and rationally. Please stop with the over emotional hyperbole and look at this issue and this particular thread logically. If you think the rational and sane response of the internet gaming community should be to erupt in a furor of vigilante justice over this issue instead of leaving it to the proper authorities and create our own internet lynch mob, then I really have to start questioning YOUR sanity.

The fact I'm arguing this point with someone with a blue moderator name is seriously making me rethink bothering to patronize this website.
 

klaynexas3

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Retrograde said:
A woman is threatened on the internet in a grossly disproportionate manner. I was wondering when we'd have a brouhaha about how some stupid people doing stupid people shit and one/some woman/women taking it all too seriously means that gaming is sexist and we're sexist.

BRB, gotta flaggelate.

And in case you're wondering, no I didn't watch past the first minute or so, there really isn't a need to at this point.

Lady Victim, evil sexists, misogyny, gaming needs to change, THE ISSUE, etc.

Edit: Well blow me down, I've since been convinced to watch the video and while the basis of the whole thing has only happened because someone thought it was acceptable to lay into a woman, the content itself managed to subvert expectations. Good work Jim I guess.

Too bad you didn't feel the pressing need to stand up and be the hero we apparently needed when all the men you mentioned were getting threatened with death, but better late than never I guess.
I know I'm going to be the 500th person to tell you this, but he did. Go Fish. That was the episode name for when he talked about Phil Fish quitting. This at least his second episode on the topic, and my guess is it might even be higher than that. This has little to do with the fact that she was a woman, and I think that you're the one here with some bias about all this. Because that's really the only thing I can get out of your comment, and I had the decency to read the whole thing too before I decided to reply, something you also lacked the ability to do due to your own biases about whenever a woman is mentioned in anything ever.
 

Overusedname

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generals3 said:
See now even if we assume there is "a gaming community" generalizing based on a small minority is silly. It's like saying "muslims are terrorists".
Well...stereotyping all has it's origins. It's never just, but it's never without inspiration. When a large portion of a group perpetuates a well established stereotype, it sort of congratulates bigots for being bigots, reaffirming what they already believed. When that stereotype is something bad, it devalues the rest of us, and the medium we love by association.

While I don't want to cater my life around proving bigots wrong, the actions of a vocal minority impact the image of the majority. But beyond setting a good example, I don't think there's much we can do. Bringing up the fact that 'this is wrong' feels redundant to an audience like the escapist. For all the squabbles, this is very smart, progressive community at the end of the day. Ya know...in a statistical way.

The 'muslim's are all terrorist' thing is not just the fault of bigots, but also the fault of muslim terrorists that congratulate bigots for being willfully closeminded, thus hurting a large, encompassing and mostly peaceful religion.

The 'gamer's are violent and cruel' thing is not just the fault of close minded people, but also of the gamer's that send casual death threats and slurs to devs and claim it's 'legit criticism'.

In both cases, both the bigot and the perpetuator are to blame. In no way is that fair, or our fault, but it's true.
 

thepyrethatburns

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generals3 said:
See now even if we assume there is "a gaming community" generalizing based on a small minority is silly. It's like saying "muslims are terrorists".
The problem with that statement is that it isn't applied evenly. When something good happens with the gaming community, whether it is Child's Play or some type of other civic-minded endeavor, gamers are all too eager to rush forward and say "This is an example of how great the gaming community is" regardless of the fact that it is also a small minority. But, when something negative happens such as death threats or other toxic elements, gamers hide behind a deflection that "there is no gaming community and, even if there were, it's just a small minority".

I would argue that if, as gamers, we are willing to take credit as a community for the good, then we should be prepared to take responsibility for the bad as a community.
 

Something Amyss

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Ultratwinkie said:
-snipped for length-
One other difference is there's been, to my knowledge, no announcement of death threats towards Blowfish.

Like seriously, I think death threats cross a line, but the closest I've seen is from Fish himself, telling a critic to kill themselves. And, because it's compulsory to point out I'm aware it's a line from Futurama, I'm aware it's a line from Futurama. Changes nothing. It's uncalled for when he does it, and if anyone did it to him it's also uncalled for.

I don't wish death on Fish, I just wish he'd shut up and stop being such an ass. And it seems half of that has happened.

But that is the thing: A lot of these people get hate for making a game. Fish got hate for being an utter douche. He even went off on people like a bloody keyboard warrior. Hepler was guilty of writing for games people didn't like and having an opinion that threatened insecure gamers everywhere that she only offered when asked directly. Hepler deserves no shit. The Call of Duty gang deserve no shit for trying to make their game better. Fish? It's hard to say he doesn't deserve anything. If he wasn't a celebrity on the internet and was just another hipster douchebag flaming people, would anyone rush to defend him? No. Why is it magically different because he made a retro platformer that he thinks is the second coming of Christ?

Marcus Beer had some solid points, by the way. Blow and Fish come off as kind of dickish for lamenting that people actually care what they have to say. Beer could have been less caustic, but given the people involved, who are they to call the kettle black?
 

Something Amyss

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generals3 said:
See now even if we assume there is "a gaming community" generalizing based on a small minority is silly. It's like saying "muslims are terrorists".
A major difference is that we can see a large portion of the Muslim community demonstrably against terrorist attacks. What you get from the gaming community (which is a thing, sorry) is a large body of utter apathy and a lot of shouting down of anyone who tries to condemn it. People are actually pissing and moaning that Jim even brought this up, which would be the equivalent of an Imam talking about the wrongs of suicide bombings and a bunch of Muslims complaining there's no need to talk about it. What gamers have demonstrated borders on equal measure. What Muslims have demonstrated is nowhere near it.

1337mokro said:
WHAAAAAAAT????

You are joking right Jim? This wasn't an actual thing right? You made this up didn't you?
Yeah, he's joking.

...there's no dragon tongue dildo.
 

Fdzzaigl

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This thing with DA2 has honestly been going on even before the game started, from the moment they released a few screenshots that showed the game going in a different direction than origins with a different artstyle.

There was even a huge boycot from 4chan and Witcher 2 fans before the game had launched, hundreds of fake 0/10 ratings were given on metacritic minutes after the game launched.


I mean OK, DA2 wasn't the greatest of games, far from it. But it wasn't SO BAD that it deserves all that either, in fact, no game ever is that bad. All this crap that people were giving developers doesn't exactly encourage creativity and change in the industry.

We shoudn't need to give them pats on the pack either, but setting up massive defaming campaigns before games are even launched, because of changes that we don't like, is ridiculous. One day a game might come around with changes that are actually great and fun and exciting and heck, some of the changes that DA2 made were actually good.
 

1337mokro

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Zachary Amaranth said:
1337mokro said:
WHAAAAAAAT????

You are joking right Jim? This wasn't an actual thing right? You made this up didn't you?
Yeah, he's joking.

...there's no dragon tongue dildo.
You don't know do you? You honestly thought he was joking about that part? Oh Jooooooy :)

Shall I ruin your innocence or shall I not ruin it.... decisions... decisions.... you know what. I am NOT posting the picture. I am posting the link to a very particular site and you can look at it for yourself, if you want to. The decision is yours to make.

http://bad-dragon.com/

It's number 5 on the main page, just in case you have trouble finding... It.
 

Therumancer

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Hmmm, well I think Jim takes it a little too far here mainly because he's taking a scattershot approach to so many separate issues, and also kind of dancing around the problems that lead to this kind of thing to begin with.

To be blunt I don't think threatening the kids of the Dragon Age 2 writer was appropriate. Something I am stating before people read other things I'm about to say and decide to jump on my case acting like I am saying it was, which I am not.

The central issue that this comes down to is untouchable corporate entities, and the rage they are generating by doing so many things wrong and upsetting so many people without much of a way to call them to task for what they do. Video games are just one business where this has become a problem. The old philosophy of "vote with your money" isn't really an option because the deck is so heavily loaded in many cases where you pretty much have to endure the practices of the big businesses or go without the product, which is at least going to bring annoyance to you if it's something you want enough to be upset to begin with. When it comes to certain kinds of products, luxury goods like video games and the like in particular, which involve a high level of investment, actually depriving the companies of money is more likely to drive the investors away and cause an industry crash which will simply cause you more deprivation rather than causing the policies, practices, or product to change.

To be brutally honest people are getting more upset with the global corporate stranglehold than ever before, your seeing violence and threats being leveled against all levels of business, it merely stands out when you see people getting so angry in general that they start issuing death threats against the families of video game writers who really aren't far up enough on the corporate food chain to matter for these purposes and ultimately haven't done much of note. Mostly this is spillover from bigger problems where such behavior isn't quite as inappropriate as many people might think, as unpopular as that point of view is (though it is slowly changing, hence the climb).

To explain when it's right to threaten someone on this level is when they threaten you on that level. Your unscrupulous banker, real estate mogul, corporate big wig, and other sorts who would gladly turn your entire family out on the streets and leave your children to starve, deprive your family of medicine, and take away your home because of the backlash of some housing scam beyond your control or because they figure they can make more money off of the land some other way (pushing for local Eminent Domain if nothing else), are all increasingly fair game. Basically if someone is willing to kill or hurt your family, being willing to do the same back in reverse becomes something else entirely. The argument that you should let the system handle things like this don't apply when these guys run or work with the system intended to police them, and argueing that you can't do this without becoming as bad as they are has no practical weight because the moral high ground doesn't matter when your family suffers when these guys pad their bank accounts and for all intents and purposes might not even acknowledge you as being human (it's all numbers). You threaten a guy in particular, he might not take that particularly seriously or feel threatened if he's confident, threaten his family however and that changes since nobody can afford to have them 100% protected all the time. Of course threats are meaningless, it's a sign of worse things to come I'm afraid, we saw the epic failure of non-violent protest against this kind of thing with "Occupy Wall Street" threats seem to have been on the rise since then, and I imagine it's only a matter of time before we start seeing a lot more domestic terrorism leveled against the untouchable classes through their families and holdings/employees if not against them directly. I actually don't like it believe it or not, I simply see what's happening, can't fault the arguments in any absolute sense, and pretty much take it as "the world sucks" since people get themselves into these problems. When things start to get this hot, on this level, just by the numbers your going to see a lot of threats and maybe even later on violence, directed against inappropriate targets as a spillover.

I'll also say that the guys making the threats against people like video game writers might not be right, but that doesn't suddenly excuse the wrong those people have done. While video games are a luxury product a lot of the bigger issues are being fought not just over things like housing, loan sharking, predatory banking practices, and other issues, but how business is done in general and to force the kind of accountability for quality that video game companies have been rapidly defining as not applying to them through things like their EULAs. The idea is that if you can force the people at the top to change, through any method, it's going to trickle down to the point of not getting this kind of crappy writer in a position like this to begin with. When it comes to "Dragon Age 2" so much was wrong with that game beyond the horrible writing that you can't point at one person and say it was their fault, it was a failure of oversight and someone trying to make a quick cash grab after the success of the first game, while not even having the resources for a GOOD cash grab allocated to it because of so many Bioware employees being tied up on things like "The Old Republic" as their primary responsibility. Bioware's usual policy of focusing on one game and polishing it to a high shine in every aspect simply hasn't been happening under EA management.

In the end the bottom line I'm getting at is that this is a sign of the times we live in. Ideally I'd prefer there to be a case where the checks and balances against capitalism worked a lot better, and it was possible for people to hold big companies accountable for their actions. That has failed for the moment. People have protested, and have largely been made into a bad joke by not being willing to take action. Now your starting to see the kind of simmering hatred that is going to lead to real problems, and this kind of rage while justified to an extent in certain arenas spills over into cases where it's not.

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I expect most people to skim over the above (at best) and not agree with me even if they read it. However I wanted to also say on a separate track that I think Jim was out of line with the whole claiming gamers are hypocrits for going after creators who give them the creativity that we claim we want.

The reason for this is simple, when your dealing with franchises your playing with an established product/world/style/way things work, producing "more of the same" is pretty much the entire point of a franchise, which is to create a predictable experience for people who like a certain kind of thing. There is a lot of room for creativity within a franchise, but at the end of the day your confined by a pre-existing vision and way of doing things. When a writer works on a franchise, it's not THEIR work, or their rules, they are simply being allowed to play there and things need to be treated with the utmost respect, especially when a particular formula has garnered a following that is coming back with their money specifically so they can get more of the same.

What gamers want is for gaming companies to create more, original, properties, rather than sticking within the same franchises. People still want those franchises as a baseline, but other things to do as well, from separate kinds of products. The problem is that gaming companies have gotten into the habit of wanting everything to be part of a franchise for advertising and promotional purposes. Rather than creating new games and IPs they instead take ideas that should be their own game, and then try and cram them into a franchise which tends to annoy fans that wanted a very specific kind of experience.

In the case of "Dragon Age" the entire thing was a spiritual successor to "Baldur's Gate" it was even promoted that way. It succeeded on those merits. It was never meant to appeal to the more action oriented gamer who wants to control the action directly as opposed to watching things unfold more slowly through phases. Like Baldur's gate it was developed around the idea of making your own protagonist, with different people's characters being able to be very different from each other's in terms of looks, gender, race, class, personality, etc... The kind of franchise that would expand by building on these foundations adding more options rather than left, much like how "Baldur's Gate" started out with very basic D&D classes, but "Baldur's Gate 2" added things like kits to expand the character options.

Now, at it's core "Dragon Age 2" was a fine idea, and would appeal to a certain kind of player different from the demographic of "Origins", the more action oriented player who found it too plodding. Not to mention people who aren't all that interested in creating their own characters and are just fine with being handed a pre-made character and told who it is, rather than defining itself. If Bioware had actually taken the time to polish up the game, add more enviroments, deal with issues like monster pop ins, and similar, it could have been really, really, good. Likewise the writing was mostly bad because it didn't work within the framework of things already established in the first game (such as how likely mages actually are to become abominations). If EA/Bioware had chosen to simply create a NEW franchise for more action oriented fantasy gamers, and let the writer develop her own world based around the specific kinds of plot elements she wanted as opposed to trying to re-define an existing world, things would have been a lot different.

The point here is that the whole argument about creativity is pretty straight forward.

... and again none of this justifies the threats, because honestly it's not a situation where a video game writer is going to cause someone's kids to freeze to death on a street corner by taking away their home or making it so you can't afford to feed them or whatever. Even by the points I was making above where the threats basically come down to "if you go after my family, I'll come after yours". But as I also pointed out you can't blame *Gamers* specifically for this when your seeing it happening everywhere, this is merely a bit of collateral spillover caused by general sentiments with people flapping off at the mouth at businesses in general because they are pretty much spewing so much bile at all of them.

I also kind of predicted things were going to come to this, and probably where they are going eventually if things don't change, back when "Occupy Wall Street" was starting and I saw it's epic fail on the horizon due to a complete lack of teeth and how easily it was to ignore by the people it was supposed to be getting to change. Some smelly dude in a lawn chair doesn't mean much when you can just fly over him in a private helicopter and his basic threat is "reform big business or I'll sit here like a sack of flesh and refuse to bathe". For the most part, the threats and increasing hostility we're seeing will fail too. Give it a few years and we'll probably see incidents of violence targeting businesses (or branches of them) on the rise more than they are now, probably followed by some serious riots where people start trying to do things like storm Wall Street and it's offices.
 

MacChris1991

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Mar 19, 2011
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Retrograde said:
TWEWYFan said:
I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.
How? How does this represent me and other gamers? And yeah I am gonna take it personally. You're gonna slag off a group to which I proudly belong so fuck it, might as well have a pop at someone who can take it. Go on. How does this run off on me or anyone other than the assholes personally responsible?

Did you know that crazy One Direction fans stalk the mothers of the band just in case the boys ever visit their parents and send real death threats to real people for the crime of going out with a member of a boyband that they happen to love?

Does that paint a very dark picture of current gamer culture of music culture, or does it rather just make individual crazy bitches look crazy?
If these are the stories people hear about then yes, these are the stories that will come to mind when people think about gamers. The crazies in our group of gamers may be few, but they are loud. And it doesn't help that we gamers as a group are willing to look the other way when it happens. Stories like this make me understand why people outside the culture are so against games. With stories like this, who could blame them?