Jimquisition: Joy Begets Anger

Machine Man 1992

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Caius said:
There was an excellent example of this very recently, in our very own Escapist, that i'm intrigued as to why Jim didn't mention. The "Papers, Please Vs The Last of Us" debacle for the game of the year award.

While many people loved both games, people were so focused on their hatred for Papers, Please, that they started bashing it over and over again, claiming to have registered specifically to vote AGAINST it. Now, i'm 100% ok with fans voting, or registering to vote for their favourite game, but i think it says something about our community as gamers, that a game can win, not out of love, but out of hate for the "enemy".

That's very very grim....
That kind of reminds me of last year when ME3 won GOTY against all logic. I was... less than pleased with the outcome, being a vocal detractor of the game.

I'm still not convinced that it wasn't people voting for it out of spite to the people who hated the ending. Me? I hated all of it, so that stung even worse.
 

Sir Prize

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Rakschas said:
i think jims message holds no thruth unless he starts rating games as either "i liked it" or "i didnt like it".

if a professional game reviewer however gives those games a "score" that gives us the impression that a somewhat objective standart is applied, which i dare say is the reason people bother to read such things in the first place. if the the outcome of such a review is, that a game whos obvious flaws are either unmentioned or credited but do not influence the rating at all, then people are in my opionion right to ask if the reviewer is doing his job properly.

a game reviewers word holds some weigth, simply because the score he gives a game tends do influence sales. so, if you like bad stuff, please do. but dont go around giving flawed work high marks on a scale that you know your readership considers at least semi objective simply because some aspect of it struck your fancy. that is not what i consider good critique.

if you get some backlash for that, please suck it up. youve just partaken in an act that is percived as to having encouraged the games industry to produce more product with the same flaws youve so generously overlooked, because obviously people let stuff like this fly. that is an injustice and justifiable reason for outcry. anger is in this scenario a reasonable and absolutely healthy resonpse. because you are percived to partake in the destruction of something, that is valued by others.

so no jim, im not with you on this one. sorry.
This right here sums it all up.

I tend not to buy new games anymore, mostly because I've shot myself in the foot more than once in doing. I've read reviews about a game and gathered a bit of information first, only to find that they left out what was wrong with it. Dragon Age 2 is an example of this because as much as I liked the game, it was seriously flawed and no-one bothered to say that.

On the other hand I bought Bioshock Infinity, even though the people around me were slamming it before it was released. I traded in a bunch of old games and got a new copy of it at a decent price; I didn't regret. I went into the game with the knowledge that it as seen as 'pretentious arty crap' and I was ready for it to be such. As far as I can see it is a fun game and I didn't waste the money spent on it.

Jim, you have a point about this, but I think in the case of reviewers you might be wrong. If professional reviewers keep praising the games they think they should or just ignoring flaws in games they like, then they will probably lose trust. Like I said part of the reason I hardly bother with buying games new anymore is that I don't want to have risk over £40 on something I might be misinformed about.

It's okay to love or hate something, but you should be able to label the good and bad bits when it's your job.

EDIT:
However everyone has the right to like or dislike something. The outrage at regular people having an opinion at something is frankly disgusting.
 

MB202

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"I'm not happy, therefore no one should be happy!" That seems to be the general mindset of our species these days. :(
 

Raikas

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Bors Mistral said:
Then, he goes on to do a TW2 review, and that's a game superior to DA2 in almost everything, and gives it a 30% lower score? I worked as a game reviewer from 2000 to 2007 and in examining some 60+ games I know that it's hard not to let your personal preferences influence you. However, especially when handing scores to games in the same genre that are released relatively close to one another, you should be able to stop, have a look, and see that something is wrong with your grading.
Eh, there are plenty of arguments to be made, depending on your personal tastes, that the games are actually equally good, or poor, or that would put DA2 on top.

Bors Mistral said:
erttheking said:
I'm sorry, the Witcher 2 is better than Dragon Age 2? Please explain to me how that is anything more than your personal opinion.
This might get a bit off topic but OK, I'll bite. It's been a while since I played them, so just a few basic things:

- TW2 has some of the most impressive visuals on release, and it still holds excellent over two years later. In comparison DA2 looks like a drab mix of brown and grey. (objective)

- TW2 has beautiful, interesting, varied and well designed environments. After a few hours in DA2, most locations look like I've already visited them. Let's not even start on recycled dungeons. Same about characters, and the way they move and visually interact. (objective)

- TW2 also gets an edge in musical score, sound effects and, I dare say, voice work. (some question of taste, but mostly objective)

- Combat in DA2 is almost MMO-like. Mim-maxing your characters often plays a greater role than tactics. Combat in TW2 rewards good reflexes and planning. You can't gulp down potions during combat. On higher difficulties (end even on "normal"), you talk to characters, read books, follow clues and prepare accordingly for major encounters. (subjective, I guess - some people like MMO-style combat better, after all)

- Some of the menu design and interface (items and character equipment icons, I'm looking at you!) in DA2 is a freaking disgrace. Some usability aspects of TW2's interface also leave a bit to be desired, but at least the UI works better and looks like a work of art. (objective)

- Both games set to depict a dark, mature setting. TW2 does it much better, with a world that is so lovingly crafted it could come to life (subjective, I agree, personal preference and all that)

- Both games tout player choice as a major theme. In TW2 the illusion never fails. DA2 offers you "choice" and seems to like to go in your face for a "fate is cruel, what you did didn't matter in the end". However, it often comes off as "we didn't bother to make the story reflect your choices, you'll take it as is". (subjective, I guess, some could end up liking DA2's storytelling and never question it)

On appearance - TW2 has more realistic style, sure. And if that's your preference then fair enough, but if it's not someone's preference, there's nothing wrong with rating the game accordingly.

On the choice element, I think there's a fair argument to be made that while you have the ability to make much larger changes to the world in TW2, but Geralt is always Geralt. In DA2, Kirkwall is always Kirkwall, but Hawke's personality changes. Whether you care more about the malleability of world or the character is subjective.

I've seen people complain about the simplicity of the DA2 inventory and about complain about the unwieldiness of the TW2 inventory. Neither was perfect in my mind, but to say one was clearly better than the other comes down to which type frustrates you more - and that's a personal preference.

Personally, I don't see a clear winner between the two - I enjoyed both, but I don't find it so difficult to understand why you might prefer one or why Tito would rank the other higher. As long as a reviewer (or commenter) is clear about why they like/dislike what they do, they're not wrong to rank it accordingly.
 

RaikuFA

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I get the same type of attitude when I mention I play Senran Kagura. I hear people throwing tantrums over games with fanservice existing. Get the same attitude with JRPGs.
 

Thanatos2k

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chikusho said:
Thanatos2k said:
Unfortunately, so many people in the world merge the statements and only ever advocate one thing:

1. Because I liked it, it's a good game.
2. Because I don't like it, it's a bad game.

Wrong. WRONG! People need to divorce their personal feelings from objectively looking at what a game is.
Your enjoyment of a game is closely tied to its quality.
But is that even necessarily true? Is your enjoyment of a movie closely tied to its quality? Because I know a hell of a lot of bad movies I loved.
 

SecondPrize

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I don't get how you're conflating people being upset because someone liked something with people being upset because a reviewer recommended something highly. These are different things. Why do you score your reviews if your readers aren't meant to be able to check out the scores real quick and, if your opinions have meshed with theirs in the past, take that as a sign they probably would enjoy this game if they purchased it?
I'm not going to be pissed at someone if they like a game I didn't, but I'll be upset if they review it as a perfect Citizen Kane of all time and then I spend sixty bones based on that to find out that the actual gameplay is less fun than any previous title in the series.
 

blackrave

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Jim, you cruel and heartless son of a *****.
How dare you to hurt Miniaturefantasywillemdefoe so badly?
It isn't his fault he isn't real.
He have feelings too, dammit.
Stop hurting people around you!
 

spartandude

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Amaror said:
But, while visuals are a matter of opinion, i just can't see how anyone can call DA 2 the best - looking game of the year were Crysis 3 and the Witcher 2 were released.
Greg Tito complained that the tutorial in Witcher 2 didnt tell him to keep away from fire, no seriously he barely (as in he does say, but not alot at all) mentions lack of diversity of environments or lack of customization for party characters in DA2 but he does mention that one of the failures of the Witcher 2 tutorial (the original tutorial could have been better) didnt mention that being in fire might be bad for your health, and he uses video footage of the bit where the dragon attacks Foltest's seiging army. I dont really trust his ability to make sense.
 

chikusho

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Thanatos2k said:
chikusho said:
Thanatos2k said:
Unfortunately, so many people in the world merge the statements and only ever advocate one thing:

1. Because I liked it, it's a good game.
2. Because I don't like it, it's a bad game.

Wrong. WRONG! People need to divorce their personal feelings from objectively looking at what a game is.
Your enjoyment of a game is closely tied to its quality.
But is that even necessarily true? Is your enjoyment of a movie closely tied to its quality? Because I know a hell of a lot of bad movies I loved.
And there are a hell of a lot of movies of very high (objectively measurable) quality that are awful.

If you love these bad movies, they inhibit qualities that are successful in being enjoyable to you.
 

firetamer13

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I'm Firetamer13 and this is my favorite video on the Escapist.

The message was sound, the side bits were hilarious, and it inspired rage in the comments.

Well done Jim...well bloody done.
 

Rakschas

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spartandude said:
Amaror said:
But, while visuals are a matter of opinion, i just can't see how anyone can call DA 2 the best - looking game of the year were Crysis 3 and the Witcher 2 were released.
Greg Tito complained that the tutorial in Witcher 2 didnt tell him to keep away from fire, no seriously he barely (as in he does say, but not alot at all) mentions lack of diversity of environments or lack of customization for party characters in DA2 but he does mention that one of the failures of the Witcher 2 tutorial (the original tutorial could have been better) didnt mention that being in fire might be bad for your health, and he uses video footage of the bit where the dragon attacks Foltest's seiging army. I dont really trust his ability to make sense.
i wager in retrospect greg too will not look at this as the strongest point in his career.

i would call this a major fuck up, but then again i am excitable when it comes to the witcher franchise.
 

Cybylt

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spartandude said:
Amaror said:
But, while visuals are a matter of opinion, i just can't see how anyone can call DA 2 the best - looking game of the year were Crysis 3 and the Witcher 2 were released.
Snip
That can't possibly be real. That's too silly to be real...

Foltest and his company even shout "STAY OUT OF THE FIRE" and "BEWARE THE DRAGON'S FLAMES!" On top of that it's a freaking dragon breathing fire at you, that should sound off some bells for your personal safety.

Bors Mistral said:
erttheking said:
I'm sorry, the Witcher 2 is better than Dragon Age 2? Please explain to me how that is anything more than your personal opinion.
More snips to cut down on the bulky text wall building here

I'm not sure objective means what you think it means, because everything you put your little (objective) tag under are subjective things. Like calling something a work of art, that is most definitely subjective.

I do agree with you though, Witcher 2 is the better game and I'm someone who was pleasantly surprised with DA2 after seeing all the hate it got, and I have a hard time believing there are people who think DA2 is the superior title unless they quit in the prologue because it was too hard for them.

DA 2 does have rather drab and barren scenery, which is pretty weird since there's like five maps in that game. Kirkwall, the sewers/basement(that is actually one continuous map with each "location" simply being a different piece of it blocked by closed doors or some scenery object, same goes for the caves in the Wounded Coast and the mountain) Wounded Coast, that mountain with the Dalish, and then the Dwarven Ruins.

And speaking of Kirkwall, that city is a huge example of Bioware's failings with "Show, don't tell" they TELL you all this change is happening, they TELL you the city is flooded with refugees and then stabilized, and they TELL you that the city is undergoing various construction efforts throughout the nine years Hawke is there but you never see any change at all, they barely even bothering moving around NPCs.

As for the aesthetic direction, I don't think DA2 knows where it's going. It looks like they wanted to go stylized but didn't commit to it, and as a result you have stuff like the suddenly cartoonish darkspawn next to characters who look like the lower res versions of the DAO models.

However, I think Dragon Age has the better voice work, particularly from Fenris and Varric while the Witcher's sole decent actor is from sweet, gritty Geralt.

Hallowed Lady said:
Rakschas said:
Same here.
Again Snippy
I guess this may be seen as some kind of promotion for someone off-site, but whatever, it's relevant. You might enjoy Classic Game Room, maybe not Undertow so much but definitely the stuff Mark makes, mostly because of their format and his own style.

Rather than pick apart the negative, he'll note the high marks of the game, because he likes to remain positive as "there is someone who this appeals to." They'll mention similar titles in a "if you liked that, you'll probably like this" way and the whole time just showing gameplay to let the viewer form their own opinions on it. There's also no scoring system whatsoever.
 

ran88dom99

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Use a "compatibility recommendation system" like criticker and listal and never see reviews u don't agree with. If they worked.
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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AtheistConservative said:
Sorry to break up the circle jerk, but it's time for the cold tyranny of economics to step in. Each year/dev cycle there's only so much money that will go into game development. How this limited resource is divvied up, ultimately controls the content available to us, the consumers. How publishers choose where to put their money is based on what sold well previously, and then looking at all the current project pitches and picking the most similar ones. So every time someone buys a crappy game, they are encouraging the publisher to make another crappy game. They are condoning it's flaws. Likewise, every time a reviewer gives a high rating to a terrible game, they are encouraging people to buy it, as well as concealing it's flaws.
This is the problem. That, and that I want to be able to rely on professional reviewers to give a balanced opinion of a game. Total Biscuit was the only person I've read who I feel really gave a balanced account of both "Bioshock Infinite"'s strengths - and it definitely had them, I know I've kinda crapped on the game here but I still think it's fundamentally a decent one, albeit flawed - and its weaknesses. And Total Biscuit, as he's pointed out countless times in his videos, isn't a professional games reviewer.
 

SnowWookie

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ran88dom99 said:
Use a "compatibility recommendation system" like criticker and listal and never see reviews u don't agree with. If they worked.
Indeed, heaven forfend one should ever be exposed to something different to what they already like.

And (not directed at ran88dom99) can we please drop the "objective review" bollocks?
An "objective review" can only state facts.

TF2 is free. There are 9 classes, many maps and lots of hats. It takes up about 10 gig of hard disk space.

Boring and sounds like it was written by a 5 year old. Yes, obviously reviewers should give you the objective facts (especially around game-breaking bugs) but EVERYTHING else, from the graphics to the potential number of hours of gameplay is subjective.
 

Raikas

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Cybylt said:
I do agree with you though, Witcher 2 is the better game and I'm someone who was pleasantly surprised with DA2 after seeing all the hate it got, and I have a hard time believing there are people who think DA2 is the superior title unless they quit in the prologue because it was too hard for them.
What's so challenging about believing that other people judge games based on a different set of criteria? And what's wrong with stating a favourite and sharing your examples without snarking on the people who disagree with you with "it was too hard for them"?

I mean, the whole point of the video was that you can disagree without poking at the people with different taste, and yet there's still this desire to poke. Why is that?
 

chiefohara

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Pedro The Hutt said:
BlumiereBleck said:
Wait....people didn't like The Saboteur?
No one in Ireland did with the obviously American voice actor's terrible accent. ;D
Ahh i wouldn't say that, quite a few of us forgave the accent. I couldn't help but laugh when i heard the main character screaming 'Shiiiiiiitee" as he fell of a building

The only Irish character that really annoyed us was 'Irish' in Red dead redemption and even then the game was so superb that we just got over it.