Jimquisition: Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

[Legion]

It's because people like to sound smart, and using the long words that other people has the benefit of making them look smart and having a similar opinion to other people. Hell, go into any heavy debate nowadays and you could play a drinking game with how many times people use words such as straw-man, false equivalence, ad hominem and so on completely incorrectly.

As for the point about when Bioshock does actually have ludonarrative dissonance, that pretty much comes down to people trying to make excuses for why they don't like things because they cannot find a proper reason to express it without simply saying "It doesn't fit my personal tastes". You see this all of the time when people will randomly decide when being "unrealistic" is a problem, and when it is perfectly okay.

To use Tomb Raider as an example some people wanted to act as though Lara's outfit was a problem because she never wore more appropriate clothing for a person in frequently harsh climates. But being shot several times and magically healing, being able to climb rock walls with the dexterity of a person who dedicates their life to it and being an expert marksmen within several minutes of first picking up a gun are perfectly acceptable.

It's also quite frequently a case of people picking up the word but not actually comprehending the specific meaning of it. The mainstream media keeps referring to "internet trolls" in their articles when the people they are describing are not trolls at all. They seem to have mistaken the fact that being nasty to somebody online is not the meaning of trolling, it just happens to often coincide with it, yet most articles referring to trolling simply use it as another term of bullying, harassing or threatening.

 

[Pink Gregory]

Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

To be fair, he doesn't seem to be accusing it of lulunermenerh dithonanthy, rather he's making the statement that the protagonists are markedly less sympathetic than in the past instalments.

I didn't say he was accusing it of dissonance. It's just that, well, isn't the new violent nature of the protagonists pretty much how most people play anyways? It's like accusing characters in a fighting game of liking fighting too much. Or accusing the humans in pokemon of animal abuse.

Perhaps you have a point. I 'unno, I can think of a few reasons that Rockstar might not want to admit that publicly, though.

 

[Racecarlock]

Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video

Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

He didn't criticise it for being violent he criticised the characters and stated that he thought they didn't have any sympathetic aspects to their character, he gives examples in the review of characters who were sympathetic and violent, one of those beng the main character of GTA IV.

Again, though, I think the new unsympathetic characters are still more relatable because they now reflect the actions that the player will take in the game anyways.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

So, Jim, I have a question for you:
Would you be up for a special panel at the expo?

It would consist of you, sporting a full "Leiakini"-outfit being chained to me, a manatee (in a Habba the Hut costume no less) and being equipped with two floppy purple dildos slapping ex-childstars, failed and succesful alike, for a scientific experiment. You would be joined by Voliton developers wearing Palm-leaf-loincloths( who are also required to ward of the masses of unwashed germ-ridden fans that try to shake your hands and to carry you around on a golden throne but that's a given, really) also wielding floppy purple dinos.


OT: Nice work as always, I must remember to use "Luggagosctuit Discoball" more often from now on.

 

[m19]

Good episode.

However I never saw that problem with Tomb Raider either, at least not as much as people seem to. It's a story of a girl who's trained both physically and to use weapons by an ex-special forces dude (you'll miss it if you don't pay attention). And the whole premise of the character arc is that she doesn't know herself. Hence after the first "that just happened" freakout, she shocks herself with what she can't do, "It's scary just how easy it was."

Yes the combat is exaggerated like in much of gaming but it is not completely at odds with the narrative or glossed over.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I always thought the major issue with the violence in BioShock Infinite wasn't that it conflicted with the story. It was that moving from highly populated streets in more peaceful sections clashed horribly with the deserted areas of the action sections. Yes, it isn't "ludonarrative dissonance", but it is annoying for some people to transition between the two, as it simply isn't smooth and indicates horrible pacing on the part of the game. This is only made worse when the action bits aren't that enjoyable compared to the more peaceful ones yet dominate so much of the game's time.

 

[NWJ94]

Interesting. While I don't disagree with your point about Bioshock, I would add though that while I personally loved Infinite (even more than the Last of Us) I was irritated somewhat at the pacing of the violence. Something more akin to the Last of Us, long periods of calm followed by short bursts of intense violence would have done a better job conveying Bookers dark nature and reinforcing the violent tone of the game by never letting us get inured to it. The beginning of the game did this perfectly, a long walk through the peaceful city, followed by a short burst of intense violence/blood at the raffle which kicks you into the mind set the game was going for.

Later when you're just mowing down waves of police officers it starts to lose its sense of weight and turns them more into generic game obstacles. The violence didn't undermine what the game was going for, but it could have presented in way that helped to reinforce it better. I would guess that was probably what many reviewers were going for. (BTW I'm heavily paraphrasing Extra Credits here, their episode "In service to the brand" did a better job explaining it then I probably did)

Overall great episode, nice to have something to look forward to on Mondays.

 

[themilo504]

The violence never bothered me in bioshock infinite, what did bother me was how booker was a one man army gunning down thousands of cops soldiers and HUGE SPOILERS vox members, even with all of the vigor?s he has that?s ridiculous.

It also bugged me how long it took before soldiers started to appear, you would expect them to start showing up very quickly but instead they send out hundreds of ill-equipped cops to be gunned down in mass before bringing out the big guns.

 

[MichaelPalin]

I give you a different point of view.

First, I think violence is very prone to cause ludonarrative dissonance in many games (not sure what your problem is with the concept, it has an very simple definition that probably most people using it understand). The thing is, violence in video games come primarily from gameplay that is proven to work and that most developers don't want or don't know how to do alternatives to it. But, once you have that gameplay, the protagonist will come out pretty much as a psychopath from it. Therefore, any other characterization that you make of it is going to feel off for many players.

But, in my opinion, the core of the problem with TR, B:I and I guess tLoU, which I haven't played, has little to do with ludonarrative dissonace. In my opinion, the problem is that gamers are maturing and are starting to outgrow violence as the king of gameplay and plot in big amounts. Take Infinite, for example. While ludonarrative disonance may have appeared in the criticisms, the criticism that most people was actually making was basically: "I love the setting, I love the city you have built, why do you force me to shoot and shoot, when I would be much rather exploring it?". That's the core of the issue, people just require experiences that do not revolve around violence or that at least give violence less priority and the industry is unable to provide that. And Bioshock Infinite is for me the moment when this become clear.

 

[WoahDan]

Do have to agree with the people saying that Bioshock Infinite was too violent, not because it was ludonarritively dissonant but because the violent parts of that game were less fun for me than the quiter atmospheric parts. I would have enjoyed it more if it was less violent, therefore it was too violent.

That is a nice coat though Jim.

 

[PunkRex]

The 'WHAT!' at the end had me in stitches.

The argument about Infinate went abit deeper than merely being 'to violent' though Jim. You're right about Booker himself being an asshole and the people he comes into contact with are also scumbags but it was the fact that Columbia seemed to loose any semblance of a living city at the drop of a hat. The people disappeared, the soilders and air barges seemed to come streaming out of doorways and the fact that plasmids were readily available but barely anyone else was using them. The violance made sense in the story just not the way it played out.

You were right about the eating rubbish thing though, Booker had money I could have just bought a sandwich.

Also, that's one damn fine coat you're wearing.

 

[RTR]

When I saw the title, I thought I forgot how to English.

 

[ex275w]

I want direct examples!! For all the alleged criticism of Bioshock and The Last of Us.

The Tomb Raider one wasn't enough?

Howabout Final Fantasy VII's big spoiler, where even the most devastating move in the game is only a KO, but a single sword is an instant permanent kill because ponies. Hell, most JRPGs do things in the cut-scenes that are impossible(in gameplay) at best, and often fit into this trend because they contradict the gameplay. Or vice versa.

Ludonarrative Dissonance is not about gameplay contradicting story. By that notion any FPS were a character is injured or killed in a cutscene also suffers from LD because they can soak bullets in gameplay. LD is more about the gameplay contradicting the theme of the story, the original example was:

"The story about Bioshock is about how Andrew Ryan's Philosophy is bad."
"The gameplay of Bioshock encourages you to use some of Andrew Ryan's Philosophy in order to succeed."

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/10/ludonarrative-d.html

 

[Moth_Monk]

Jim, you suit is fucking SWAG. Thank god for Jim.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

The 'WHAT!' at the end had me in stitches.

The argument about Infinate went abit deeper than merely being 'to violent' though Jim. You're right about the fact that Booker is himself an asshole and the people he comes into contact with are also scumbags but it was the fact that Columbia seemed to drop any semblance of a living city at the drop of a hat. The people disappeared, the soilders and air barges seemed to come streaming out of doorways and the fact that plasmids were readily available but barely anyone else was using them.

You were right about the eating rubbish thing though, Booker had money I could have just bought a sandwich.

This is the problem that Jim seems to not be seeing. Columbia isn't some war-torn hellhole or a dying city under the sea, it's a living and flourishing city with it's own laws, stability and people yet you barely ever see any civilians, and even if you do they don't give a shit that a violent and dangerous man is mowing down their family members. That and how willing lowly cops were to just bum-rush a guy armed with a machine gun, a rocket launcher and fire hands.

That and the gameplay and level-design was shit compared to the original Bioshock.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

I hath seen the error of my ways O Jim! Forgive me, Lord of Garme Jurnalism, and accept me back into your snarky embrace!

That said, I thought Bioshock Infinite's violence seemed out of place because I felt the extreme, over the top nature of the combat (which rivals Bulletstorm in the sheer amount of gore on screen) didn't mesh well with the story (batshit crazy though it may be).

That and the combat was just kind of shit.

 

[quickmelt]

Bioshock Infinite was shit anyways, it was waifu pandering and the shooting galleries were rather boring.

I don't know how people called this GOTYOAT.

 

[KorfZin]

Yet another person misrepresenting an argument he doesn't understand, simply because people hat the gall to not like a game he liked. Dismissing all criticism of Bioshock Infinite and the use of the term "ludo-narrative dissonance" as simple whining about "too much violence" is harmful to games criticism and reeks of anti-intellectualism.

 

[Callate]

Love ya, Jim.

Okay, yeah, the "ludonarrative dissonance" argument is over-used, and like many such terms ends up being used less because the users have a firm grasp of what it means than because it's likely to engender head-nodding and winning of arguments.

That's not to say there isn't problems with the the violence in B:I, just that they don't necessarily conflict with the narrative.

Consider, though, that early on within Infinite it's explicitly stated that there are ways to avoid violence and that the player might be well advised to consider using them. After that one segment, it's back to area after area where you have to kill every single living soul before it's possible to proceed again.

Narrative dissonance this may not be, but it's still jarring.

Likewise, it's frustrating that the game clearly wants the player to find the violence horrifying- wants you, in a sense, to feel a sense of guilt for the violent acts that Booker commits- but never gives the player any other options (which is indeed arguably far more the point of the thing than the violence itself.)

It may not be exactly dissonance that the increasingly tender relationship between Booker and Elizabeth contrasts with the violence, but it's jarring in as much as it suggests the protagonist is capable of more than brutal violence and self-destruction- the linear dynamic of the game itself just makes any other manifestation of that nature impossible.

I think as more games include characters who could, conceivably, be more than killing machines, the constant reliance on violence as the primary focus of gameplay becomes increasingly tiresome. It's not ludonarrative dissonance, sure. But it's frustrating, stifling, lazy, limiting, deadening... We just need more terms to express that we're longing for something more.

 

[franksands]

I think the separation between story and gameplay hurts the game when the story is being marked as the selling point of the game, as it was with Tomb Raider. With big words or not, I think it can make you have less fun with said game.