Jimquisition: Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

Machine Man 1992

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I hath seen the error of my ways O Jim! Forgive me, Lord of Garme Jurnalism, and accept me back into your snarky embrace!

That said, I thought Bioshock Infinite's violence seemed out of place because I felt the extreme, over the top nature of the combat (which rivals Bulletstorm in the sheer amount of gore on screen) didn't mesh well with the story (batshit crazy though it may be).

That and the combat was just kind of shit.
 

quickmelt

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Bioshock Infinite was shit anyways, it was waifu pandering and the shooting galleries were rather boring.

I don't know how people called this GOTYOAT.
 

KorfZin

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Yet another person misrepresenting an argument he doesn't understand, simply because people hat the gall to not like a game he liked. Dismissing all criticism of Bioshock Infinite and the use of the term "ludo-narrative dissonance" as simple whining about "too much violence" is harmful to games criticism and reeks of anti-intellectualism.
 

Callate

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Love ya, Jim.

Okay, yeah, the "ludonarrative dissonance" argument is over-used, and like many such terms ends up being used less because the users have a firm grasp of what it means than because it's likely to engender head-nodding and winning of arguments.

That's not to say there isn't problems with the the violence in B:I, just that they don't necessarily conflict with the narrative.

Consider, though, that early on within Infinite it's explicitly stated that there are ways to avoid violence and that the player might be well advised to consider using them. After that one segment, it's back to area after area where you have to kill every single living soul before it's possible to proceed again.

Narrative dissonance this may not be, but it's still jarring.

Likewise, it's frustrating that the game clearly wants the player to find the violence horrifying- wants you, in a sense, to feel a sense of guilt for the violent acts that Booker commits- but never gives the player any other options (which is indeed arguably far more the point of the thing than the violence itself.)

It may not be exactly dissonance that the increasingly tender relationship between Booker and Elizabeth contrasts with the violence, but it's jarring in as much as it suggests the protagonist is capable of more than brutal violence and self-destruction- the linear dynamic of the game itself just makes any other manifestation of that nature impossible.

I think as more games include characters who could, conceivably, be more than killing machines, the constant reliance on violence as the primary focus of gameplay becomes increasingly tiresome. It's not ludonarrative dissonance, sure. But it's frustrating, stifling, lazy, limiting, deadening... We just need more terms to express that we're longing for something more.
 

franksands

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I think the separation between story and gameplay hurts the game when the story is being marked as the selling point of the game, as it was with Tomb Raider. With big words or not, I think it can make you have less fun with said game.
 

Vivi22

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bringer of illumination said:
So are you just ignoring the fact that the whole "eating from trashcans" thing HAS in fact been brought up several times by several different people?

Your statement that "Nobody spent any time on this" is flat out false.
Honestly, I've never seen anyone mention this at all until Jim's video just now. It certainly wasn't the biggest thing that most people were complaining about. Hell, if even Jim wasn't aware of it, or at least wasn't aware of many mainstream examples of it, then I feel pretty safe saying it wasn't even a big thing that the majority of the gaming press thought to bring up and run with.

Bioshock Infinite is rife with Lubosnasra whatever, and much of it IS related to the violence.

One example is the fact that despite Elizabeth being aghast at the first murder spree of yours she witnesses, she never seems to care after that, not even when you break into the home of some innocent housewife and tear her fucking face off with your hook, Elizabeth just doesn't give a shit.
Aside from your one example there of killing an innocent person (though I don't recall this happening aside from my ending up in some woman's home with police in there ready to kill me and having to fight them when they saw me), it's easily, and quite rationally, explained by the fact that if they don't fight these people and find a way out of the city, Booker will die and Elizabeth is going back to her tower for the rest of her life.

Now maybe you missed the fact that she really, really, wanted to get away from there, but it's not something that was exactly subtly hinted at during the game. So no, I don't agree with the idea that this is dissonant at all. You can quibble as much as you want over the whole thing being a bit rushed, and maybe they didn't spend enough time showing her getting over her initial disgust to ensure their survival, but the reality is that the explanation for why she would continue on with Booker and actively help him is readily explained by information contained within the games narrative.

On a side note, it's kind of funny that Jim can do a whole episode dedicated to why these arguments are wrong, and people are still trying to make the same arguments.
 

Zeldias

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A thought regarding Bioshock Infinite and it's dissonance; could it be that the dissonance is in the fact that the violence is fun? I can't say much about the story, because Bioshock Infinite is probably the most boring game I've ever played for a multitude of reasons, but it always strikes me as bizarre that brutal violence and getting shot up is meant to be a pleasurable experience/challenge. Then again, who would want to play games where you go "OH CHRIST HE'S GOT A GUN," and it feels awful? But that's also a more generalized thought on violence-as-dissonance and isn't really germane to Bioshock Infinite. Also, I found the plasmids and the whole "I can equip boots that burst into flame when I stick a landing," to be more dissonant than eating popcorn out of trash; Booker is basically an enemy of the state or something, right? Who the fuck is gonna sell him a hot dog?
 

Lilani

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May 27, 2009
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Callate said:
Consider, though, that early on within Infinite it's explicitly stated that there are ways to avoid violence and that the player might be well advised to consider using them. After this one segment, it's back to area after area where you have to kill every single living soul before pressing on again.
I remember that part, and I remember it being specifically about strategy. When that message pops up, you're coming right off a gun battle and into a house owned by unarmed civilians. They run and cower, but they won't hurt you or run out and call authorities. I imagine the message pops up because up to that point, you have pretty much gunned down every living soul you come across, and they had to get just a bit in your face to remind you there are other ways to solve problems. And of course the violence continues after that, but the notice was simply saying there are some times when killing isn't necessary. It never made any promises that it would never happen again.

It sort of reminds me of something I heard in the Portal 2 developer's commentary. In a bit toward the end, they said they introduced a few "mini puzzles" before a big puzzle to subtly remind the player about certain mechanics they learned much earlier in the game, but at that point haven't used in a while. This is because even though the player is knowledgable about how the mechanics work, spending so much time not in that "mode" makes them temporarily forget what they can do. So they forget they can layer gels on top of one another, or they forget they can shoot through wire fences, so they had to do something in the game to remind the player about these mechanics and how they work so they don't try to solve the puzzle without them.

So that's more or less how I took that notice. Reminding you that you do have a choice, and sort of reinforcing that overarching theme that reveals itself at the end where you feel all throughout the game your choices mean something, but ultimately they don't.
 

Daniel Laeben-Rosen

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Dickdatduck said:
Can someone tell me the name of that painting with "Birds eating naked people"?
Garden Of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch.
--

OT:
Loved the video. Personally, my problem with the combat in Bioshock Infinite wasn't the violence. It was just that I thought some parts of the combat dragged on too long. Could've used some longer breaks, basically...
Still loved the game in general though.

Also... I want that suit, Jim. Just saying.
 

rasputin0009

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video
I am putting in a crumpled piece of paper in the suggestion box:

"Transcript of videos in comments, please?"

It would probably only please five people, screw up the advertising somewhat, and be extra work for you. But, I really want to hear what you're saying in silence on my phone. As in, during Calculus class, when I'm supposed to be paying attention.
 

Weaver

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Apr 28, 2008
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To me, in Bioshock Infinite, it wasn't that it was ludonarrative dissonance to me; it was just tonally inconsistent.
You have a serious story, in a well thought out setting. It's touching on some heavy issues, then suddenly it's 1990s style gore circus with gibs, body parts, blood, and heads flying all over the place.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Jul 18, 2009
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For me gameplay enjoyment comes first and ludonarrative dissonance comes second. This is why I didn't care too much about Lara saying one thing and doing another in Tomb Raider, because the other was quite fun to do. It made no sense for this fledgling college student to stealth choke/gun down/axe murder all these mooks, but when I'm enjoying myself doing it I feel it a bit strange to start complaining about.

Same would've applied to Bioshock: Infinite if the gunplay wasn't complete and total rubbish. That title would've been far better off having been a detective styled game with minimal action, since it would've fit the setting way better, but most importantly so Ken Levine would stop crowbarring flacid shooter action into his games. Seriously dude, stop it!
 

Teoes

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Jun 1, 2010
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I knew this episode was a winner the moment I saw the title 'Lugoscababib Discobiscuits'.. and its win was confirmed when Jim showed off his suit's awesomeness. Bravo. Bravo.
 

PureIrony

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Aug 12, 2010
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Bioshock Infinite's problem is less than it suffers ludonarrative dissonance than it suffers from just straight-up narrative dissonance. Halfway through, after Booker has led a revolution and killed tons of police officers and civil servants, he basically makes the case that violence can never be justified, and that trying to use violence to stop violence is insane(and nothing in the game tries to combat that notion). And during that section of gameplay, we're supposed to find the violence unsettling and want to stop doing it.

Then, five hours later, I'm rushing to save a damsel in distress, any sense that what I'm doing is wrong has evaporated, the game is in no way trying to humanize the people I'm killing, and I'm using violence to save the world...from violence. Christ, the game ends with literally, an infinite number of murder. Literally infinite murder. That's just...inconsistent. And very, very, dissonant.
 

Something Amyss

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ex275w said:
Ludonarrative Dissonance is not about gameplay contradicting story. By that notion any FPS were a character is injured or killed in a cutscene also suffers from LD because they can soak bullets in gameplay.
That's actually much how it was introduced into usage, so to argue it's wrong is folly.

Besides, your examples are not offering a significant distinction. Gameplay in the above examples distinctly violates the themes given.
 

GonzoGamer

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This doesn't surprise me at all. Hell, gamers can't be trusted with the term "entitled" and that's not exactly an SAT word.

Racecarlock said:
Vault Citizen said:
Racecarlock said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

Watch Video
Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.
He didn't criticise it for being violent he criticised the characters and stated that he thought they didn't have any sympathetic aspects to their character, he gives examples in the review of characters who were sympathetic and violent, one of those beng the main character of GTA IV.
Again, though, I think the new unsympathetic characters are still more relatable because they now reflect the actions that the player will take in the game anyways.
While I don't think that the "score" (whatever that's worth) should've been lowered for that (raised maybe), I am glad it was brought up in the review. At least now I know I wont be playing as 3 tortured souls who shed a tear every time I run over some random slob on the sidewalk.
And as annoying as that was in GTA4, I wouldn't accuse that game of having ludoscaboobidibob discobiscuits because you could play the character that way; try to control yourself so it seems like Niko has a new found respect for life. But really, who wants to do that in a gta game?
 

Crazy Zaul

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I thought Adam Sessler just made up the concept of Ludonarative Dissonance because a word needed to exist then other people started using it.

The LD in Tomb Raider wasn't the violence, its was the fact that you go around collecting arrows, cards, statues and whatever else which has no point to the story.