Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3 And The Case For A Gay Shepard

[ACman]

Using birth control and masturbation are obviously just as inherently wrong as everything else.

Prove it.

Go ahead. Prove that masturbation and birth control are wrong.

I'll wait.

You've been Poe'd.

Darknatch is actually satirizing Therumancer who seems to think that his appalling viewpoint is acceptable because merely because he is polite.

 

[irishda]

Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.

That's a very poor defense. Age of consent exists in only one animal species too.

EDITED for reasons that become clear later in the forum, lol.

Age of consent does exist in animals, it's called sexual maturity.

That is not age of consent. That is another animal being ready to procreate.

What you describe is an individual going through puberty. Sexual consent is electing to allow sexual intercourse to occur.

So...all animals are rapists...because females are never electing sexual intercourse to occur?

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Using birth control and masturbation are obviously just as inherently wrong as everything else.

Prove it.

Go ahead. Prove that masturbation and birth control are wrong.

I'll wait.

You've been Poe'd.

Darknatch is actually satirizing Therumancer who seems to think that his appalling viewpoint is acceptable because merely because he is polite.

Well, you know, so long as they don't harm someone, there isn't actually anything WRONG with believing something like that. Freedom and all.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.

That's a very poor defense. Age of consent exists in only one animal species too.

EDITED for reasons that become clear later in the forum, lol.

Age of consent does exist in animals, it's called sexual maturity.

That is not age of consent. That is another animal being ready to procreate.

What you describe is an individual going through puberty. Sexual consent is electing to allow sexual intercourse to occur.

So...all animals are rapists...because females are never electing sexual intercourse to occur?

What... I don't... How... My head... hurts...

I really don't understand how you managed to get whatever it is you're getting out of that comment, lol.

My point was that arguing "other animals don't, so we shouldn't either" is inane.

 

[Darknacht]

Using birth control and masturbation are obviously just as inherently wrong as everything else.

Prove it.

Go ahead. Prove that masturbation and birth control are wrong.

I'll wait.

Um... you realize that that was a satirical statement in response to Therumancer's statements that homosexuality is deviant and wrong because it does not 'help propagate the species'. I don't believe that masturbation or birth control are wrong. I think that people already breed way more then they should and so anything that make giving birth to a child a thought out decision rather than something stupid that happens because people are horny is a good thing.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Using birth control and masturbation are obviously just as inherently wrong as everything else.

Prove it.

Go ahead. Prove that masturbation and birth control are wrong.

I'll wait.

Um... you realize that that was a satirical statement in response to Therumancer's statements that homosexuality is deviant and wrong because it does not 'help propagate the species'. I don't believe that masturbation or birth control are wrong. I think that people already breed way more then they should and so anything that make giving birth to a child a thought out decision rather than something stupid that happens because people are horny is a good thing.
Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah, someone pointed it out. Sorry.

My fault for not going back and fully reading the rest of your conversation before jumping into it.

 

[ACman]

Using birth control and masturbation are obviously just as inherently wrong as everything else.

Prove it.

Go ahead. Prove that masturbation and birth control are wrong.

I'll wait.

You've been Poe'd.

Darknatch is actually satirizing Therumancer who seems to think that his appalling viewpoint is acceptable because merely because he is polite.

Well, you know, so long as they don't harm someone, there isn't actually anything WRONG with believing something like that. Freedom and all.

Thats like saying a KKK apologist is okay because they're not directly hurting anybody.

Viewpoints like Therumancer's result in gay-bashing and teenage suicide.

 

[Endocrom]

"What? you're gay and you sell books, you must SHAG the books! So we fire you for no reason."
- Eddie Izzard

 

[Kingshadow6]

Considering the ending of this Jimquisition i think I will share my personal opinion.

Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.

That said excuses debunked in this video are pathetic indeed.
And pedophilia and homosexuality are indeed vastly different things. That said, both are cases of mental disorder but vastly different ones.

But what's most important here is that developers, Bioware, don't owe anything to anyone. If they want to include whatever new content it is entirely up to them. Your only choice is to either buy their game or don't buy it. It's as simple as that. Attacking writers for example is childish and outrageous. You may disagree with them or consider their creation abysmal.. But the only thing you're entitled to is ability to skip their game and don't buy it.

Mental disorder. They are sick in the head. Sir i would kindly request that you gtfo these forums,political/ideological differences are what make this forum great but you describing peoples sexual orientation like its a disease that needs curing for humanity's sake makes me sick. Face it you are just as ignorant and bigoted as the people who compare homosexuals to paedophiles. As jim said if you just said you were homophobic and had personal problems with it thats a position i could understand but to just say nope they are sick and need curing is disgusting.

As much as I hate agreeing with Lord Gremlin, I kinda have to defend his point. Legally speaking, being gay/lesbian/transgender/whatever is a mental disorder. Not that I have a problem with it, my aunt is gay, I don't have a problem with her, it just means mental deviation from the social norm. Trying to find statistics on such a matter calls anywhere from 1% of the population to 25% of the population a member of the LGBT club. Assuming that it's somewhere in between those two numbers, that is still a deviation from the social norm of the the population of the world, thus a mental disorder. Again, not bashing gay people, just pointing out that his comment is completely valid. We just take it at face value of the social stigma associated with the phrasing he used.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Using birth control and masturbation are obviously just as inherently wrong as everything else.

Prove it.

Go ahead. Prove that masturbation and birth control are wrong.

I'll wait.

You've been Poe'd.

Darknatch is actually satirizing Therumancer who seems to think that his appalling viewpoint is acceptable because merely because he is polite.

Well, you know, so long as they don't harm someone, there isn't actually anything WRONG with believing something like that. Freedom and all.

Thats like saying a KKK apologist is okay because they're not directly hurting anybody.

Viewpoints like Therumancer's result in gay-bashing and teenage suicide.

You can't limit the rights of someone to express a non-violent opinion because of what someone else might do.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Legally speaking, being gay/lesbian/transgender/whatever is a mental disorder.

Wrong. Homosexuality isn't considered a mental disorder and hasn't been for quite a while. A simple Google search would show you that.

Also: homosexuality is not related to transgender in any way.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Wait where did Jim get a real life Penetrator?! Man wtf he always gets all the cool props from games! >.<

as for gay in the game. I had no idea it was an option. I just remember vividly that Bioware said they didnt want to give Shepard that option in ME2. figured it was the same for ME3. If its the last game in the Shepard story y not let him/her switch hit for once.

 

[Darknacht]

Darknatch is actually satirizing Therumancer who seems to think that his appalling viewpoint is acceptable because merely because he is polite.

Well, you know, so long as they don't harm someone, there isn't actually anything WRONG with believing something like that. Freedom and all.

Thats like saying a KKK apologist is okay because they're not directly hurting anybody.

Viewpoints like Therumancer's result in gay-bashing and teenage suicide.

I agree with Grey Day for Elcia you can believe what ever you want to that is your right. As long as you keep your viewpoint to your self and don't run around telling people that they are immoral deviants you hurt no one. Therumancer's problem is he is a bit too vocal about his bigotries. He should not be banned assuming that he does not go too far(i.e. directly attack anyone or encourage violence) but the community should make it clear that we disagree with his ignorant viewpoint and that we would rather he not express it.

 

[Garrett Horvath]

I didn't have time to read through the tons of retards posting comments, or the people uselessly trying to argue about how gay is ok (you aren't going to get THROUGH to these haters). I just wanted to say that I thought your video was incredible and was one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time.

 

[mooncalf]

"But if that's how you think... you are a ?#!$ing bad person." - Jim Sterling.

Last week's strange fiction left me confused and unamused, but this week so radically makes up for it that I can only say "Point and match, Jim." Truly a Sterling moment.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

I didn't have time to read through the tons of retards posting comments, or the people uselessly trying to argue about how gay is ok (you aren't going to get THROUGH to these haters). I just wanted to say that I thought your video was incredible and was one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time.

You call others "retards" because they believe differently to you?

That would make you a smaller person than them.

 

[Darknacht]

As much as I hate agreeing with Lord Gremlin, I kinda have to defend his point. Legally speaking, being gay/lesbian/transgender/whatever is a mental disorder. Not that I have a problem with it, my aunt is gay, I don't have a problem with her, it just means mental deviation from the social norm. Trying to find statistics on such a matter calls anywhere from 1% of the population to 25% of the population a member of the LGBT club. Assuming that it's somewhere in between those two numbers, that is still a deviation from the social norm of the the population of the world, thus a mental disorder. Again, not bashing gay people, just pointing out that his comment is completely valid. We just take it at face value of the social stigma associated with the phrasing he used.

I'm not sure where you live but where I do LGBT is not a mental disorder legally or otherwise and deviating from social norms does not mean that you have a mental disorder.

 

[Orekoya]

Nothing more fun than reading every other page or so of this forum and watch the topic wildly jump around from talks of gayness to evolution of the opposing appendage. We even had a special guest Therumancer, and I do mean special what with his dogged antiquated [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.353118-Jimquisition-Mass-Effect-3-And-The-Case-For-A-Gay-Shepard?page=8#14012225] bullshit [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.353118-Jimquisition-Mass-Effect-3-And-The-Case-For-A-Gay-Shepard?page=8#14012663] arguments [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.353118-Jimquisition-Mass-Effect-3-And-The-Case-For-A-Gay-Shepard?page=8#14012975] followed by his usual leaving in a huff [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.353118-Jimquisition-Mass-Effect-3-And-The-Case-For-A-Gay-Shepard?page=10#14013721] because he refuses to argue with anyone who can prove him wrong, if he is doesn't just leave without a post so he'll never have to admit to himself that he's using an argument that's been disproven for decades.

Published in 1984, Erotic Preference, Gender Identity, and Aggression in Men [http://www.amazon.com/Erotic-Preference-Gender-Identity-Aggression/dp/0898594456] was with the current data of multiple case studies of pedophiles. The most common threads of pedophiles found then was that they generally had a lower IQ, had family troubles in their past, were typically introverted, and had another diagnosable mental disorder. Made while most people were still calling AIDS GRID and the Reagan administration was busy not giving a shit [http://www.amazon.com/Band-Played-Politics-People-Epidemic/dp/0312241356].

Addedum: for all those lovely idiots out there who would say homosexuality is a mental disorder, in 1905 Freud was one of the first of MANY psychologists wrote about how homosexuality wasn't a mental disorder. Mental disorders disrupt a person's ability to reason and perform everyday activities. Homosexuality does neither of these. As Freud coined it in 1935 : "Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation, it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function produced by a certain arrest of sexual development." Of course reason typically doesn't work in the face of idiocy. In 1954 we lost an international hero, Alan Turing without whom we couldn't have won World War 2 and the father of computer science as we know it(also enjoying the bitter irony right now that Therumancer hate postings were made possible by a homosexual inventor), when two years prior police of the UK prosecuted him for his homosexuality leading to chemical 'treatment' until his eventual resignation to cyanide poisoning. In 1973 the Board of the American Psychiatric Association finally lifted homosexuality off its list of mental illnesses.

 

[Callate]

Um, you just mistook sarcastic reductio ad adsurdum of your argument for me missing the point, which is interesting as you actually use this rhetorical device yourself in the passage of your post that I have marked out with smiley faces.

Sarcasm doesn't always come across in Internet posts, and if that was intended as reductio ad absurdum, it failed to make a relevant comparison to the point believed to be made absurd. For the reasons I attempted to explain in the segments you found irrelevant.

I know this is stating the obvious but because male bisexuality is rare now, doesn't mean it doesn't exist now. Similarly, if male bisexuality is still rare in the Mass Effect universe, that still wouldn't mean that it was non-existent. Therefore, it is no great stretch of the imagination that one man and one member of his crew in a vast galaxy could be both male and bisexual.

A view of reality which might be reflected when I said:

But it has to be said that having every significant human male character you interact with be bisexual to give options is just lazy writing. (Or every female, for that matter, though it stretches credibility slightly less.) I'm perfectly willing to believe that the Xyrg'kkk'l are all culturally bisexual, or that elves have much higher rates of bisexuality, or whatever. I'm even willing to believe that one or two human characters (including the player) are bisexual. (emphasis added)

...

...one of my fields of expertise is sexuality and gender identity, so I have a degree of knowledge in that area. The resounding impact of the huge levels of male bisexuality in both the Grecian and Roman empires was very little. Pretty much the only noticeable sign of impact was less of a heterosexual bias in erotic art and literature, and the fact that no-one batted an eyelid if a man slept with a man or a woman. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable for the Mass Effect writers to have applied that same approach to the universe they created in their games. In fact, that actually seems to be the route they originally took; gay/bi love options were originally a part of the story, but were removed before release. All that was removed were the actual romantic interaction scenes. Nothing about the core make-up of the Mass Effect universe, or the themes explored within it, was changed by this.

I'm willing to believe that your knowledge of the period and cultures involved was significant. The attitudes of ancient Greece and Rome- or at least, the attitudes reflected in the remnants and relics that remain available to us for study- make a poor excuse for ignoring the attitudes and conventions of the world we live in. A world where integration of both sexes into the military, and of homosexual service-members into the military, is still a major sticking point. Where homosexuality was illegal in the PRC until 1997, and India until 2009.

Naturally, these are reflections of societal attitudes, and attitudes can change more quickly than the actual presence of those to whom those attitudes are applied.

But on the other hand, if one wanted to carry on reducing to the absurd, based on the evidence of Greece and Rome, we could expect the Alliance to find very little worth discussion in the taking of foreigners as slaves.

That so little was changed in removed the homosexually-geared love scenes from the original Mass Effect serves at least as much as evidence that the matter was given very little consideration in the writing as that there was some sort of consistent or considered approach given to the matter.

There seems to be little else to say, save for one thing; at one point, you emphasised that I also lived in a culture where 'human bisexuality, especially male human bisexuality, appears to be relatively rare.' Firstly, that was incredibly presumptive; none of the three base meaning of the word 'culture' fulfil that criteria from my perspective.

No phrase that contains the term "appears to be" could ever be taken to be anything but presumptive, including from the point of view of the person saying it. However, that assumption is based on an (admittedly limited, admittedly flawed) range of statistical evidence, as well as the fact that the very existence of male bisexuality is considered sufficiently controversial that some have devoted the time to studies specifically engineered to prove or disprove its existence. [link]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/health/23bisexual.html[/link]

Culture:

5a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations

b: b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time

c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization

d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <changing the culture of materialism will take time ? Peggy O'Mara>

-Merriam-Webster Online

3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.

-Dictionary.com

That you may be using a different meaning, I cannot help.

Needless to say, using something you don't know about a person as evidence for your point in a debate does not support or strength your argument in any way. Secondly, you then went on to justify this false belief with your reductio ad absurdum sentence. In context this isn't logical debating, as all of your examples were so bizarre that, in comparison, the concept of male bisexuality seemed even more mundane and normal than it already is.

I'm still entirely uncertain you grasp the thrust of the argument you're describing. I believe the "person I don't know" in this context is you, and the assumption that among your countrymen, as in mine, bisexuality is relatively uncommon.

Very well; between the Union Jack next to your profile and the information that you work and study at Cambridge University, let me note that The Independent, citing the IHS, claims 1 in 200 in the UK to be bisexual. [link]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/official-statistics-reveal-uk-gay-lesbian-and-bisexual-population-2087829.html[/link]

I'm sure there are flaws in that survey and its methodology; I don't doubt, for any number of reasons, bisexuality and homosexuality might be under-reported. However, it is at this point something resembling data pointing in a particular direction, which at present I am placing next to little more than conjecture.

 

[Reptiloid]

Garrus!