Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[Imp_Emissary]

So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...

Don't you think the reason people, (Not just Jim, Bob made this same point a good while ago), keep talking about these problems may be because they haven't stopped being problems?

Ignoring the problems won't make them get better.

I bet on this episode of Road Runner, the coyote tries to catch the bird and fails. Fuck this show.

Every dog has his/her day. Even Coyotes.

He did finally get the Bird on Robot Chicken.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.

It really is and thats why we use terms like broken record and beating a dead horse because well...thats all there is to it if no new perspective is brought up or if someone has already said it better before.
I really see no point in arguing and or debating for well...the sake of debating because we need to debate about the debate and need to debate the debate...*headache*

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again

If that was your problem why did you not say that instead of suggesting I'd tackled this topic in my series already, which is factually incorrect?

If you didn't like the video because you say someone else said similar things, whatever. That's not what you said though. You said my show had covered this exact topic before.

 

[klown]

Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".

Thankfully I'm not one of those however I will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesn't become as much of a discussion and more of a "pls-agree-with-me-footrace""

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion I just don't like any discussion, discourse and debate to be one-sided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, that's not what debate is to me.

Actually that is what a debate is. The point of a debate is to get your point across, and change people's minds. You do this by reiterating your point in as many different ways as it takes to get the furthest person to your side. That is the how you debate, and even a simple discussion.

 

[Sepko]

Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".

Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.

This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.

 

[DrunkenElfMage]

All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.

You'd be surprised to find out just how many people don't know or haven't seen things that you would think that everyone should have heard about already.

I know people who haven't seen Star Wars, anime fans who haven't watched Cowboy Bebop, shooter fans who haven't played Half Life, Half Life 2, or Portal.

Just because you think everyone has heard this already, doesn't mean they have and if a tenth of the audience Jim has has learned something new, then I would say this is a video well made.

 

[MaxwellMouse]

Monxeroth, it is not everyone has seen all internet videos before. Even if it is a covered topic, that does not make it any less valid or relevant. I see people saying things like this all the time, as recent as the whole Dragon`s Crown issue.

 

[RaikuFA]

Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.

 

[Sepko]

Good points Jim, but, perhaps you've forgotten - there are male characters made for a female audience.

Male characters made for specifically a female audience, usually a teen female audience, over in Japan.

And we're done, those games are sold almost exclusively in Japan, Jim's mostly talking about Western attitudes with the objectification thing. That's including the Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball footage he used, cuz that was sold in the West.

 

[Xman490]

Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.
At least he expanded his scope to Dragon's Crown and sometimes winks at Other M.

Speaking of consistently using examples, Jim also uses Gears of War, Uncharted, and God of War as "male idealization" examples, though not quite as much as DoA:BV.

 

[Darken12]

Thank you, Jim. It's like you know exactly what to say to the douchenozzles who cover their ears and go "LALALA SEXISM DOES NOT EXIST!"

The thing that annoys me the most is the endless flak, the stubborn refusal to face facts and own up to the toxicity of the industry.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.

Basically because it's a killer example.

I can happily use some different footage. That one just works so damn well.

 

[Sepko]

Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".

Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.

This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.

Sure they can but in most cases theyre not.
Consistency is good sure but, just repeating for the sake of repeating makes no progress whatsoever towards anything.
It is and always will be more interesting when it is two-sided however.
Yes one-sidedness can SOMETIMES be interesting in a few rare cases (this isnt one of them btw)
but more often than not the two-sided debate is healthier and a lot more interesting

This is assuming that the second side had any ground to stand on.

 

[Muspelheim]

Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.

 

[Something Amyss]

But Jim, you magnificent stallion, if I don't treat them as equal I have to admit that maybe there is an actual problem that should be addressed. Why would I do that when I can yell at people to shut up and offer myself up to false martyrdom?

Help, help! I'm being oppressed!

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

They need bigger boobs.

<..>

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again

So instead, you're beating a dead horse by insisting that it's all been said.

...This is getting meta. Is this a performance art piece or something?

 

[Bke]

I have a question, that's just an aside, what if men are being objectified by way of the marketing?

Understand I do believe that objectification of women in games is a serious issue ad have sent e-mails to several companies explaining this. However I wonder if part of the issue isn't that game companies have told us what to want to an extent? I mean if all I get from them is bums and boobs won't that mean that's all I want, because I know of no other representation in games?

I know what I'm saying is perhaps a bit convoluted but I have yet to buy bioshock infinite because I'm not sure if that would be sending the right message to publishers, telling them that I respond to that kind of marketing, that I want more "gun-bros" and "boob-girls". And then I'm forced to choose between buying a game I want and telling publishers that what they're doing is cool.

I know in previous episodes Jim has said that we should support the games we like, and speak out against negative practices, but I don't see something like this being resolved in such a manner when I have very few options to "vote with my wallet". So how do we break the cycle? Of course supporting those games with fairly represented women is the way to go, but so far the are only two triple-A titles on the horizon, and nothing else. And I really do want bioshock infinite.

It's pretty messed up that I find myself in such a dilemma.

 

[squid5580]

Ya when you put it like that and focus pretty much on aesthetics there is an unequal playing ground. From where I am sitting both sexes are on equal ground because it isn't the clothes or the chest size that is the problem. Storytelling is. Walking gun saves boobs from evil. When they take the keyboards away from the chimps and give them too people with I.Q.s in the double digits then we can have this discussion (if it is still warranted).

 

[Hap2]

Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!

What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."

A sad truth.

As for those who really are just tired: just because good arguments exist showcasing a real problem does not mean that the problem has magically gone away. You have to get up and do something about it too; the grass isn't going to mow itself.

There is nothing worse than a bunch of people who agree that something must be done, yet do fuck all when it comes to actually realizing that change in the world, and then proceed to complain that the problem is "getting old" when they get bored of showing their moral outrage.

If some of you are really tired of hearing about the problem, then get off your rears and do something about it. Write a book, spread the word, and make videos; do something for crap's sake rather than whine about how "old" the problem is, because nothing is more "old" than a gaggle of apathetic geese honking and hissing at passing cars.

 

[Dire Sloth]

Reading the first few comments is... kind of upsetting.

Good points Jim, but, perhaps you've forgotten - there are male characters made for a female audience.

Name five please.

 

[Irridium]

There's also the fact that if men are treated so poorly, why the hell isn't anyone speaking up about it? The only times I hear about it are when women or any other minority points out how poorly they're represented.

If there's a problem, fucking make noise and try to do something about it. That's what women and many others are trying to do. Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone else should not care and we should all shut up about everything. That's just stupid.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.

I've never pretended that every episode I do will cover new ground. In fact, several episodes -- some of which I'm most proud of -- do little more than redraw established arguments. These episodes are made, by design, to re-tell a story in a way that I hope will be understood by those who weren't "getting it" before. A new translation, if you will. Or at least having the words coming from someone such people would be more willing to listen to. I have a decent size audience, and I'd like to use my influences in circles not normally reached by others for some sort of good.

If this topic is nothing new to you, that's fine. I absolutely cannot argue that back to you. However, you're not the blueprint of the human race. Nor am I, as much as it pains me to finally have to admit that.

You said it yourself -- truth=/=urgency. You're right. There's nothing "urgent" about this show. It's a consumer and culture affairs show and I tackle things at my own pace. The existence of this episode does not destroy the existence of other ones.

My only advice to you is, if you're truly tired of my consumer and cultural affairs show tackling consumer and cultural affairs, just stick to Loading Ready Run, which also goes up here on a Monday morning and is generally damn funny.