Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[Goliath100]

Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.

Basically because it's a killer example.

I can happily use some different footage. That one just works so damn well.

No it's not a "killer example" of objectification of females, because none of does characters are female. After all, gender is defined by what an individual identified as and not physical characteristics. And a playble character is incomplete without player input, the player is infact a part of the character, making the player's identification the character's too. In other words: Objectively a playable character have to be seen as genderless.

 

[lord.jeff]

The other issue with this argument is that it's essentially saying because objectification effects everyone not just women we should stop arguing it. How does saying something is a bigger problem then first stated a reason to end the discussion?

Also for everyone how is tired of hearing this topic, why did you click and watch a video that was obviously about sexism? Jim didn't waste your time you wasted you own time by choosing to watch a video about a topic you're supposedly not interested in.

 

[JediMB]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

My only problem with that picture is that none of the female versions of those three even remotely resemble that image. Batgirl is fully covered, Supergirl has the skirt instead of the tights but still is the same, and the Green Lantern uniforms are well... uniform, except for a bit of cleavage.

Now as for others, I can see where they're coming from but these are bad examples as there are actually female equivalents that aren't so skimpily dressed.

Well, those guys are all core heroes in the JLA, right?

Who else is? Wonder Woman, right? Look at Wonder Woman, and then back at that picture, I guess? (And keep WW's lasso in mind.)

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!

What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."

Just yesterday I commented that gender threads get locked down unnecessarily, and that the contributors repeatedly throw fuel on the fire of the debate that we're apparently not allowed to have here.

I go to work for a few hours, come back... the thread I posted that in is locked. I go to sleep, wake up, and a contributor is focusing on gender issues again. I'm not claiming to be a prophetic genius, the pattern is just easy to spot.

This is the only reason I'm getting sick of this. Can we not just let people talk without locking every single thread? If people are in violation of the code-of-conduct, surely dealing with those people is better than locking the threads. We're only throwing around ideas and opinions, not daggers, we don't need to be saved.

We can leave a thread we don't like at any time, it's very easy. What we can't do is talk when someone is forever hitting the disable button.

I agree with the distinction, Jim. I think it's cool that you follow up in the forums too, even if it is mostly just to be facetious. I do wonder about your "nearly 50% female" audience assertion though. The numbers seem to support it in one sense, but not in others.

http://www.esrb.org/about/video-game-industry-statistics.jsp

These seem to lean towards female gamers not being anything near 50% of ps3/360 users. I would be interested in seeing a more robust set of numbers.

Love Panda.
xxoxx

 

[Something Amyss]

But now you are suggesting that every female be molded to be likable by everyone, which would make her generally unlikable.

When did I suggest that? Because I'll gladly chew myself out for saying something that wrong.

...Or I would, if it was true.

And since when is being loyal in a relationship make one a "pet"?

"Loyalty" wasn't even in the phrase I quoted. "Depends" was.

I know you're going for "absurd," but at least don't misrepresent me in the process. Someone who doesn't "get it" might get the wrong idea and assume I said something like that.

 

[Orbot_Vectorman]

Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.

Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.

Even if Postal was AAA, the argument is a very flawed one. In general, male heroes are idealized. I do not believe, however, that ALL male characters are idealized. We're only dealing with the general and common examples here. Of course anti-heroes, flawed heroes, and downright villain protagonists exist. I always Kane & Lynch's best feature was how it starred two characters who were both physically *and* psychologically ugly people.

But again, male characters are allowed to be flawed, ugly, and even broken. Female protagonists, not so much.

True, very true. But, (And I'm sorry for potentially playing devils advocate)the flip side to this argument is, IF they made a flawed (physically or mentally) there could be a potential uproar over it.

 

[Ashoten]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

My only problem with that picture is that none of the female versions of those three even remotely resemble that image. Batgirl is fully covered, Supergirl has the skirt instead of the tights but still is the same, and the Green Lantern uniforms are well... uniform, except for a bit of cleavage.

Now as for others, I can see where they're coming from but these are bad examples as there are actually female equivalents that aren't so skimpily dressed.

What this picture illustrates is the way in which a female character is drawn a large percentage of the time. Notice how the butt always has to be jutting out in one direction and the chest in the other. It is an obvious outfit design that apes WOnder Womens wardrobe. Wonder Women who is one of the most progressive female characters in comics still need to stick her ass out to sell issues(according to the people who make comics apparently).

Not every female character is in skimpy cloths as you said but that does not mean that they are not being objectified.

See how this costume covers her face and arms but not her torso. Yes I did just look for pictures that support my opinion and there are plenty of examples of female super heros looking heroic and sexy but not objectified but try to find many examples of men in the same suggestive poses that are not a spoof.

 

[Dire Sloth]

This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

Spoiler

 

[fightclubdoll]

RE: Why does Superman have such smooth legs as compared to Green Lantern and Batman?

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

You said it yourself...alien. Superman, too, comes from a world far, far away... where hair is more evolved.

 

[Karadalis]

I'm more curious about things that revolve around this debate. Female characters in media as sexual objects with little or no agency are referred to as a problem, either because they exist at all, or because they are too pervasive and... what? Is it because it is lazy writing? Is it because it sets up standards of beauty that are unreal? Is it because it sets up standards of behavior for women that are appaling? I'm interested in knowing why people think this objectification is bad, otherwise how can one set up counter arguments without resorting to strawmanning?

If we say that the objectification is bad because it is lazy writing, so too can we argue that making idealized male figures is equally so. Even with agency intact, a male hero figure who simply exists as an idealized version of real people is, frankly, boring as crap.

If we say objectification sets up unrealistic and unattainable standards of beauty, so too does idealization often do the same. You can point to 'ugly' male characters and say they aren't setting up any standards of beauty, but they do set up unrealistic expectations of masculine appearance. Even the ones that do have scarred faces and greying beards almost always have muscular forms with rediculous porportions. Almost as often as the idealized protagonist saves the objectified woman, he also saves a horde of skinny, dare I say 'nerdy' looking male characters who are equally defenseless, suggesting that having 'brains' is less preferable to having brawn.

If we say objectification is bad because it sets up standards of behavior that are appaling, the same can be said for idealized male characters. The tropes associated with said idealization usually involve little or no sympathy or empathy and that revolve around suggesting men are or should be brutish oafs. Even clever male characters with wit in their dialogue act without much more thought than "point gun, kill bad guy," much of the time.

That's just a few examples, but the point I"m striving at here, is that while idealization does not equal objectification, can it not cause many or all of the exact same problems? If so, why would we dismiss it as being a valid comparison to objectification? I'm not even saying it is, as I started out in my first paragrah, we'd need to lay our all of the reasons objectificaion IS bad and find out if idealization can cause those exact same problems.

I think the difference here is that an idealized character is still a character.. while an objectivied char... is wank material?

Solid snake for example had big char flaws.. objectified he would not have them.. he would all be "positive" traits.. and therefore very boring.

Or take away the personality of morrigan in Dragon age and she would be nothing more then a pole with tits. But add her personality and suddenly you have a bad ass female char with a somewhat grating personallity... you know.. like most badasses have?

There is a fine line between idealisation and sexualisation... it is crossed when the char is nothing but sexapeal and little else.

As for your other question in how this is bad: Well i guess Miss titsnass goes against the big moralic picture we all should adhere to but secretly enjoying to break all the time if we look at human culture as a whole and especialy the media industry.

Aslong as people buy the product.. the product maker will not make it more "unatractive" for his customers just to stand on the moral high ground.

 

[Wilco86]

I do not understand the idea that ideal men are what players want; for example the flawed hero of Planescape: Torment is more sympathetic character than most can-do heroes that own everyone else in combat, always does the right choices where others fail etc. (I actually hate how Dead Space 3 used the character of Norton; as the hero Isaac is always right, and Norton who opposes him is of course an inferior human being and overall a bad, bad person. It feels like those kind of protagonists exist only to boost players' self-esteem.)

Of the objectification of females, for example Dragon Age: Origins has some of the most beautiful full plate armors for female characters, like the one Teyrn Loghain's soldiers are wearing. Not a single "chainmail bikini" among their ranks, and I really liked Ser Cauthrien as a character, also.

 

[Lilani]

People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?

But here's the thing: Men aren't being asked to be like the big-brave muscular guys in games. They're simply being asked to identify with them and enjoy the power fantasy. Those muscular characters are the way they are to stroke the player's ego and make them feel more powerful.

What are women being asked to do, then? Identify with that same power fantasy? Sure, why not? I'm never put off by the fact that all the player-characters in TF2 are male, and in Kingdom Hearts I have no problem enjoying the battle system as a spiky-haired do-gooding boy. But things do get rather awkward when the titties come out and I'm being asked to enjoy that as well. And it would be nice just to have a female lead thrown in there every now and then, just to spice things up. I'd like some female power fantasy, as well. I've been envisioning myself in the place of male protagonists for as long as I can remember. Surely it shouldn't be that earth-shatteringly difficult for guys, either? Or hell, just sit back and soak in the strangeness and role-play for a while.

Come on into the gender-displacement pool, the water's fine!

 

[alj]

Do people really have a problem playing as a female character that is a bit concerning to say the least. And this brings me to something I have been thinking about recently.

You see people argue that "its just a game its not me doing that" and at the same time the same people wont play as a girl as they argue that the character is a projection of themselves. Well you cannot have it both ways. Ether its "just a game " and therefore who you play as should not be a problem for you or the character is a projection of yourself and its you who is using white phosphorus or butchering innocent people in an airport.

And why should every single character you play reflect your sex race and orientation? It would make for a very bland and boring world if all entertainment and art was like that.

I do not think the majority of people think this way, some will do(usually the young male adolescent) however the problem is the publishers thank think that they need to aim everything at this demographic, (publishers you need to get better market research departments seriously).


An example of how stupid this can get ...

Does anyone know of a game where you play as a 27 year old man who is

- slightly overweight
- has a long scruffy ponytail
- who has a beard because they are too lazy to shave


Anyone

Anyone ?

What a shame guess i cannot play any more games then.


see how stupid this can get

 

[Clovus]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

 

[Gorrath]

See how this costume covers her face and arms but not her torso. Yes I did just look for pictures that support my opinion and there are plenty of examples of female super heros looking heroic and sexy but not objectified but try to find many examples of men in the same suggestive poses that are not a spoof.

I've always found this to be a bit of a logical fallacy simply because what women would find sexually attractive doesn't generally revolve around what men do. Saying that we can't find men on the front of comics jutting their hip to the side is proof that they aren't done up to be sexy isn't a good argument.

I think we'd need a deeper understanding of what many or most women DO find sexually appealing to know if the poses used for male heroes are appealing to them, and then we'd have a basis for comparison.

 

[1337mokro]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?

 

[DGMockingJay]

I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?

People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?

Which one do you think is more rewarding?

I was just humoring you. Your argument that the depiction of either gender in media creates an unrealistic standard for women and men, I find stupid. You dont have to live upto anything. Video games are not your Asian dads [not being racist, I am Asian, and its a meme] who want you to be the best in everything. Its fucking video games.They want you to show something that is fantasy. Its the best version of you, or the stereotypically/universally accepted best version of anybody.

Yeah, Men want to be with women with a body like Kate Upton. Women want Ryan Gosling lookalike. But thats society's problem. Its always been like that.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

...

Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.

I guess my point is, is that I want my escapist protagonist to make sense in the context of the narrative. Everything else in a game is classifiable as objectified, though not necessarily sexually- goals, interests, support, rabble, MOBs, etc.

I hope that made some sense- I thought it would when I started typing...

Wanting the game to make sense is fine. Though that is one of the common complaints people make when talking about over sexualized characters. The whole "chainmail bikini" thing.

That and as Jim said, while most of the time the male protagonist are usually "idolized" as something the player wants to be, strong in some way, powerful, good, or just very good at being bad. They can not be what most would call "sexy". Kratos may have a better body than it may be possible for a real person to have, but he is also kind of ugly in the face. At least compared to say,

Spoiler: this.

I mean come on. His shirt gets that dirty, but his face and hair are just fine? Say what you will about Lara still being pretty hot, but at least they let her get reasonably dirty.

Don't be hard on yourself, but keep in mind that you aren't the only one who feels bad.

Also, as you said about women playing games with characters they may not like? Well, they may not have much choice if they like the game but hate how the female characters look/act. You can like a game but hate the characters. And as for the "why aren't there more games with female characters made for females yet?" Well, as Jim said, some people don't even want women to come in and test the game yet, so asking them to focus on what women want when they won't even bring in some to see the game may be asking a bit much yet.