Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

blackdwarf

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You are pretty spot-on with this subject. It always annoys me that female character always get stuck with the same stereotype, being the hot model with the slim body, but the male characters have dozens of types to choose from. Fat, ugly, slim, muscular, miss formed and more. Games with rosters of characters like fighting games or League of legends really show the lack of creativity (or too much fan-service), concerning the the female body type. All females have the same "perfect" body.

But besides the visuals we also lack the cool female characters who are cool for their characteristics, not their body.
 
Feb 28, 2008
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FFP2 said:
Yay... this again. Guessing the last video didn't get a lot of views.

Constantly whining about this isn't going to change anything. Unless devs/publishers decide to change. Sales mean more than good characters to them and this whole "sexist" shit is the easiest way to do this. Macho men and women with big boobs are here to stay. They're trying to appeal to the biggest audience - men.

The horror!
Well what else are people supposed to do in order to get the change they think is long overdue? Arguing and raising the debate is the only way to influence publisher (or, of course, not buying the games -- but then again, raising the issue is important). And Jim specifically said that the audience of video games is far more diverse than people think, it's not vastly more men than women.
 

verdant monkai

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I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".




I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Orbot_Vectorman said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Orbot_Vectorman said:
JenSeven said:
Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.
Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.
Even if Postal was AAA, the argument is a very flawed one. In general, male heroes are idealized. I do not believe, however, that ALL male characters are idealized. We're only dealing with the general and common examples here. Of course anti-heroes, flawed heroes, and downright villain protagonists exist. I always Kane & Lynch's best feature was how it starred two characters who were both physically *and* psychologically ugly people.

But again, male characters are allowed to be flawed, ugly, and even broken. Female protagonists, not so much.
True, very true. But, (And I'm sorry for potentially playing devils advocate)the flip side to this argument is, IF they made a flawed (physically or mentally) there could be a potential uproar over it.
Maybe, but I must ask, so? There will always be some uproar about any game. Hell, remember when Jim made the joke about the people who made an uproar about Sonic's eyes being made green?(hahaha...that was funny)

That, and there have already been female characters in games that have been ugly physically and mentally (sometimes both but most just mentally) before. Granted, most were not the protagonist, but I don't remember much complaining about them. Not to say that there wasn't, but if there was it wasn't very widespread. Plus we could use something not so over done once in a while.
 

Reeve

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Here's another thing: An ideal woman, even from a woman's point of view, would look attractive to most men. Because who doesn't want to look attractive?
 

franksands

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Ukomba said:
Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.
(M)Ass Effect 2 wins the trophy for most objectified women. Aside from Jack, you have Samara, the justicar with high red heels. But the 1st place goes to Miranda, because the camera always focuses on her ass.
 

Dire Sloth

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Azaraxzealot said:
Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
YESSSSS! Can't fucking agree more.

Because unlike most other "strong female protagonists", she actually is aware she is still a woman instead of just being a woman acting in the role of a man and shunning all things womanly.
If you watch GoT (I'm assuming you do):
When Jaimie and Brienne duke it out for the first time! I got so excited when Jaimie fell over trying to tackle her. She is a womanly beast.
 

Psykoma

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CrossLOPER said:
Psykoma said:
But then the character design would have to deal with the issue that so very very few women think having massive boobs with a petite frame is more attractive and preferable, and yet even fewer would think highly of being dependant on her man.
How well do you think a game would sell if all the women were obese and had the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites?
Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.

And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites", they would still be attractive to the vast majority of men.
 

TheThirdChild

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For the 'smug' bit you could have just put up a flashing sign saying "satire". Maybe then people would connect the dots, or learn a new word...
Has anyone ever ask female players what they'd like their female (and male) characters to look and act like?
 

Reeve

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Women in video games are idealised. Unless you think that women don't want to look attractive.
 

Reeve

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TheThirdChild said:
For the 'smug' bit you could have just put up a flashing sign saying "satire". Maybe then people would connect the dots, or learn a new word...
Has anyone ever ask female players what they'd like their female (and male) characters to look and act like?
Except that it's not "their" characters. It's the writer and artist's characters.

I'm sick of seeing entitled whining from people who get the privilege to play someone else's work.
 

Orekoya

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1337mokro said:
Clovus said:
1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.
Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?
There you go.
 

Bke

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JarinArenos said:
Exactly like this video. Not letting the topic die. Making the conversation louder so publishers can't help but hear it. Not shutting up just because some people are "tired" of hearing the issue discussed. We'll stop talking about it when the industry changes its practices.
However I wonder about the effectiveness about talking about it. While Jim is right to think that his predicted console market collapse will bring and end, or at least a change, to DRM and other such practices, I don't think this is such a prominent issue to be considered in the proceeding regrowth after the collapse.

If we look at what happened in the 80's, consumers became disillusioned because of poor quality control, leaving Nintendo strictly controlling its releases even today. If another collapse were to occur, or even something near to it, how could we ensure that sexism is indeed identified as one of the causes from a profit standpoint?

Of course speaking to the publishers and developers is one way, but the feeling I got from replies to the e-mails I sent is that this is still a non-issue in the eyes of publishers, and may have been brought up too late in this "second era" of gaming history to see effective change come soon enough.

I suppose I answer my own question by way of pointing out that we can't directly "vote with our wallets" on this matter, but it's still sad to think the industry may still have to endure another era with cliché stereotyping. But I can see no way to alter this course.
 

Spearmaster

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Internet-"Hey! There is a problem"

Me- "What is it?"

Internet-"Women in games are over sexualized!!!"

Me-"Why is that a problem?"

Internet-"because some people don't like it"

Me-"Well I don't like tomatoes on my tacos"

Internet-"Derp,Derp'Derp"

Me-"Is it hurting people?"

Internet-"Well there is absolutely no evidence but we say it is... so yes it is hurting people."

Me-"Ohh, so what do you plan to do about your problem?

Internet-"Just another wave of over entitled bitching about someone's art form and how things have to change"

Me-"Really? I just don't buy tacos that have tomatoes on them, some people like tomatoes on their tacos so I don't think it has to change"

Internet-"Derp,Derp,Derp"


**Disclaimer**
This was a fictional dramatization of a typical conversation with the internet.

Is there a solution in this mire of sexism in video games that doesn't trample all over an artists creative design? Or is it nothing more than a whine about stuff people don't like. I hear thousands of people AGAINST sexism in video games and AGAINST over sexualized women and now even the idealization of men. Never once have I heard someone FOR a solution to this supposed problem, just whiners and the supposed moderates that say we should have discussions about it which is just a cowards way of supporting the whiners by giving credence to their argument.
 

Xanex

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I have yet to see any correlation between how female characters are portrayed in games and any harm to women in reality besides "it offends me". And I have yet to see anyone forcing anyone else to buy and play games that offend them. Well, besides game reviewers.
 

Psykoma

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CrossLOPER said:
Psykoma said:
And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites".
I think you read two different posts, one of them being mine, and somehow merged them together in your mind because I never said that.

Psykoma said:
Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.
i·de·al·ize (-d-lz)
v. i·de·al·ized, i·de·al·iz·ing, i·de·al·iz·es
v.tr.
1. To regard as ideal.
2. To make or envision as ideal.
v.intr.
1. To render something as an ideal.
2. To conceive ideals or an ideal.

They are so long as they fit someone's ideal.

Jim's choice of words was poor.
No, they are idealized if they fit the general ideals of the group they represent.
Women game characters are what they think men find ideal in women, that's not idealization, that's objectification.
If the women game characters were what they thought women would find ideal in women, then that would be idealization.