Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

Imp_Emissary

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verdant monkai said:
I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".


I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.
True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.
 

the December King

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Psykoma said:
the December King said:
I always felt that the protagonist/hero in an adventure story should most likely reflect what is needed or wanted of him or her. Lara Croft has to have 'sexy' (or in practical terms, developed and strong) abs and legs to make jump after jump and climb ridiculous things. She has to be fit, and to many people fit is sexy, on a very basic level.
I'm sorry, but the "the women have to look like for what they do in the game to be realistically feasible" does not work.

I guarantee you, a woman who could 'realistically' do all that Lara Croft does has 0 boob - all muscle (thighs and butt for that matter as well). A real life woman who can do what Lara Croft does has the same body as Kratos. Well, minus the willy.

the December King said:
Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.
Yes, there are some who do find that attractive.
But the point is that they are incidental to it all, they aren't the target.
Fair enough, I suppose, but again I was suggesting that the characters in action/adventure games should look like they COULD do some of the things they do, but I didn't mean to imply any sense of realism.

Because there is none, really.

If you get shot you can't normally hide for a moment and then regenerate, for example.

Rock-climbers and long-jumpers don't all look like WWE headliners. I was just saying that Lara fits the image/ideal better than, say, a non mountain- climbing, long-jumping stripper. Or something.

And again, the target would be the audience that pays the company for a product, so if giant ham-fisted troglydyte for a protagonist appeals to the demographic, you pander your suits off to make that money. And if there really are almost 50% of gamers basically not bothering to speak up, the squeaky wheels will get the grease, I guess?
 

Jack and Calumon

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DrunkenElfMage said:
Jack and Calumon said:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.
You'd be surprised to find out just how many people don't know or haven't seen things that you would think that everyone should have heard about already.

I know people who haven't seen Star Wars, anime fans who haven't watched Cowboy Bebop, shooter fans who haven't played Half Life, Half Life 2, or Portal.

Just because you think everyone has heard this already, doesn't mean they have and if a tenth of the audience Jim has has learned something new, then I would say this is a video well made.
I think if anyone cared about this debate enough to watch this, they would have seen this. Heck, MovieBob did it nearly a year ago. and I'm not even going to point out the massive amounts of people who've said this in forum debates, blog posts and several articles.

I did say that the argument is still being said and that does grant, perhaps, repeating that counterpoint until people stop saying it. My point is is that the vast majority of people have heard this and this video is dull because of that. We've heard this before, it's been said already. The majority have heard this and now we're having the same thing but with Jim's face and voice. You can argue that if someone's going to get enlightened, it's worth doing sure. That doesn't mean I can't say it was boring for me to watch because in my view, this is very slow on the ball.

Calumon likes people. End of. Go home.
 

The Funslinger

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Your use of forward slashes has totally changed my way of doing things. I'll do a top ten gaming babes next week.
With a piece of female Willem Dafoe fan art making a surprise win on the number one spot, right? It counts because of Beyond: Two Souls!
 

Redd the Sock

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Legion said:
Muspelheim said:
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.
The thing is, that most people from what I have seen do not use the "They are both objectified" argument as a way of suggesting that it should be ignored, but as a way of pointing out that the issue isn't with bad female characters, but with bad characters overall.

That writers should be working on writing decent characters in the first place, rather than simply trying to fix female characters.

Note that I am not expressing my own opinion, merely pointing out what I have seen when people actually talk about male objectification.

Although I would say that despite most male characters being written to appeal to male gamers. They pretty much exist to make "witty" one liners and shoot things. So while they are not "objectified", they are pretty bad in their own right, as the "ideal" male is apparently a meat head with the inability to converse like a normal person, no emotions or value for human life.

Which I think is the point people who make the argument are trying to get across.

Well some of them.

There does seem to be a fair amount of people who actually think the muscular men in gaming are the equivalent of the sexualised women. Which is worrying.
It depends on the guy and the girl in question. Dante didn't go shirtless for the guys to look at his abs.

As someone that has used that argument in the past, I do so more to address the issue of self image: specifically that stereotypically men don't look at Kratos and think they need to hit the gym while an attractive female character seems to put off women that can't live up to the big boobs and thin waists. It isn't that I don't get where women are coming from, but I think the wrong message gets taken away. I'm a 35 your old hairy guy with minor acne, crooked teeth, and a beer gut, and I don't get self conscious when I see Dante, or Brad Pitt, or a muscle bound guy in tights in a comic book. I'm not always happy with everything about me, but I know I don't have to live up to some ideal, especially one that can only exist digitally, or through plastic surgery, starvation diets, non-stop exercise, and drugs.

But an element behind these gender topics is that yes, a lot of women still feel the need to live up to the Lara Crofts, and the response is to minimize their usage, not to try and break through their personal beauty myth. I'd like to think that a something women could learn from the guys in these debates is that you don't need to have your self worth dictated by how much you match something designed to be an unrealistic fantasy, and that the problem we do have with the beauty myth, exists less because of the myth's existence, but on people that do seem to think that their fantasy should be reality. Don't attack Lara Croft for being attractive, or anyone that finds her attractive. Attack those that expect you to be her, especially if that someone is yourself.
 

mdqp

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DVS BSTrD said:
That's why they have a whole game world made for them to do just that. The females on the other hand... you don't get 8 hour games about putting on make-up, doing cardio at the gym, sticking to a low fat diet and shopping for impractical fanservice clothing. =/

Well, not any good games anyway.
I know you didn't mean it, but that sounded terribly sexist right there, I think you might want to word it differently... :D

As someone pointed out before, the point about living up to any standard is madness. If your friends pressure into certain standards, they aren't really your friends, and if it's your family doing it, well, they might still be your family, but they might just suck. And society is pretty much a faceless, shapeless thing, getting pushed by it into doing anything is something I can't really understand. Also, even if someone was pressuring you into anything, you still have a functioning brain, which allows you to disregard any dumb suggestion thrown your way.

Also, I believe it's a bit unfair to arbitrarily say: "if males are inept in this media, that's a standard which is easy to meet, while if they act like badasses in that media, then it's just empowering". I agree there is an issue in variety and quality of female characters portrayal in videogames, but that's just cherry picking.
 

DGMockingJay

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Groenteman said:
Same goes for popular media. Sure theres a place for DoA and Gears of War, just like in movies theres a place for porn and cheesy action flicks, books have place for erotic novels and whatnot, etc etc. This does not mean we want a whole bloody medium to be just porn and muscly peabrains (and those who do want that, why the hell are you complaining? there not every going to be a shortage of those)

Also romance novels are a genre, not a medium. Gaming is a medium, shooters are a genre. 'male-centric' is not even an essential part of shooters. Try and think a bit harder about your analogies.
The medium has several genres that serve to men.FPS and Fighting Simulators for example. Just like books have a genre that serve females specifically.

Thats not to say that video games as a medium cater exclusively to men. I mean if the idea is, that there are no game that exist in this world that have good female characters, women would like, then thats truly not the case. Games like Tomb Raider, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Resident Evil 6 + Revelations, Beyond Two Souls, Remember Me have good female characters, and most of them are recent or upcoming.

Nobody asks for these games. They just exist. And now with the advent of female gamer demographic, this type of games are only going to increase. Organic growth. Do you think teenage girls demanded chick flicks to be made?? No. People make them still because there is demand.

Also, Look at Wii games. Now I wont say it serves to females, but the number of female gamers on Wii is massive, even more than men [80% of Wii owner are females]. Now they must be doing something to attract the female gamers, I am sure.

Also I find it tough to believe that 47% of gamers are women even though the games exclusively cater to men.. I dont think such a large number of women are playing games even though games dont even consider their needs.
 

CalUKGR

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The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?
 

DGMockingJay

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Orekoya said:
1337mokro said:
Clovus said:
1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.
Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?
There you go.
I think he uses his laser eyes, because its fast and efficient.

If his hairs were really indestructible, how come his own laser eyes destroys them??
 

FoolKiller

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Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Objectification And... Men?

A common argument in the ongoing debate over gender and videogames is that women and men both are equally objectified. Is that really true?

Watch Video
Great video, even if the subject has been brought up numerous times. A worthy debate, examination and rebuffing is always welcome in these types of affairs.

I know you touched briefly on the whole exclusivity of the male hero "ideal" and how they can be varied and you touched upon the variety of female NPCs, but I wonder if you've played or seen anything of Persona 3 or Persona 4? These characters are not overly sexualized AND have realistic traits and flaws that, in my opinion, should be brought to light in this type of discussion on how to portray different kinds of people correctly. Kanji Tatsumi and Naoto Shirogane are two of the most well thought out characters from Persona 4, as well as Aigis and Junpei from Persona 3. I wonder if, in future episodes, you could touch on these examples of characters and how they impact, not only the player, but the image of the industry?

Just my two cents, Jim.
 

verdant monkai

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Imp Emissary said:
True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.
I'm talking about this character as an individual nothing to do with Skyrim other than its where he comes from. He is just an example of a man who has been objectified into a killing machine, which isn't nessecarily an ideal that most men want to achieve.

And to set the record straight I love the Elder Scrolls but the characters are some of the worst in existence. They may be diverse but they are all boring forgettable cardboard cut outs.
 

Ukomba

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franksands said:
Ukomba said:
Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.
(M)Ass Effect 2 wins the trophy for most objectified women. Aside from Jack, you have Samara, the justicar with high red heels. But the 1st place goes to Miranda, because the camera always focuses on her ass.
Ah, no, I believe you'll find that Final Fantasy X still holds that trophy.

As for ME2. I don't know. I never found Samara attractive, like, at all. Not sure if it was her age, her design, or her personality, she just never came off as an object of desire to me. Same goes for Miranda. Sure she's got a good body, but I just couldn't get over her being an infertile, cloned, gender switched man. Jack didn't seem come off as objectified either. I couldn't romance her either, I just kept seeing her as a wounded child. She was great in ME3.