I enjoyed this, thank you! Enlightenment aside, I would kinda like to see some games where men are truly objectified... for the sake of equality of course.
Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
If big publishers can afford to neglect half the playerbase, there is even less room to justify the greedy business tactics of recent years.
Still, I'm glad to be just an observer. They'll either work to find a solution, or they don't.
People will vote with their purchases, so we don't actually have to talk about it, we just have to wait it out and let reason take it's course.
Still, I'm glad to be just an observer. They'll either work to find a solution, or they don't.
People will vote with their purchases, so we don't actually have to talk about it, we just have to wait it out and let reason take it's course.
I'm lost to the point where good looking female character is nothing but objective but good looking male character is idealized.
DOA for example, all the characters have some story and they are just there to fight for a prize pretty much aside from the volleyball game What makes the females objective but the shirtless guys not. And no being a guy character doesn't put a better story, or get the woman story, it the same thing.
The Ideal woman isn't pretty? Ya I know we all have different tastes but how many of say 100 people are going to write down features like Fat, ugly or hairy. on the topic of boobs and butts tho, ya plastic surgery is pretty big in the us, same for male hairloss. How many male leads of games are balding ;p.
Playing MMO's, the big fat ugly character builds are hardly ever used and when they are used it's people making a joke character male or female, so can you see reasons on not spending a ton of money to make ugly character models.
Face it, Men and Women don't want ugly characters in games, the only that want them are for jokes.
DOA for example, all the characters have some story and they are just there to fight for a prize pretty much aside from the volleyball game What makes the females objective but the shirtless guys not. And no being a guy character doesn't put a better story, or get the woman story, it the same thing.
The Ideal woman isn't pretty? Ya I know we all have different tastes but how many of say 100 people are going to write down features like Fat, ugly or hairy. on the topic of boobs and butts tho, ya plastic surgery is pretty big in the us, same for male hairloss. How many male leads of games are balding ;p.
Playing MMO's, the big fat ugly character builds are hardly ever used and when they are used it's people making a joke character male or female, so can you see reasons on not spending a ton of money to make ugly character models.
Face it, Men and Women don't want ugly characters in games, the only that want them are for jokes.
Actually I posted why there is a problem with the whole process at one point.Dire Sloth said:Damn. Just can't win!FoolKiller said:Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.Dire Sloth said:This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
If a game has a female protagonist that is masculine, then its bad because its a masculine character with a female skin.
If a game has a female protagonist that is feminine, then its bad because it stereotypes females.
If a game has a female protagonist that is genderless, then its bad because once again, its just a male character with a female skin.
If a game has a male protagonist then its bad because it isn't female.
I read complaints that fall into these four categories every time. The devs see this too and think "well, we can't win no matter what we do so lets do the safe thing and have a male protagonist"
There are two big problems overall.
1. The way that females are portrayed a lot of the time. The crazy attire and poses need to be removed.
2. No one has ever actually come up with a real solution to specific things rather than just sweeping generalizations. I've actually asked several people and they just make general statements without being to give one solid concrete example of what to specifically do.
The problem that I see is that the concept of a feminine trait is sexist by definition and so you can't be non-sexist and use those traits.
An interesting theory, Jim, but how do you know for sure women wouldn't play games with the kind of protagonists you talk about, just for fun? To me, if any series would have a large female audience, it's Final Fantasy and their "girly men" leads. Also, you left out the approach of male/female sexual characterization from games by Bioware.
And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?
And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?
Spearmaster said:
It's good cheese. 
Goes well with whine. I know because I've had some here already.
Anyway, I think the reason no one talks about a solution is because we all kind of "know" what it is.
We just have to ask/demand more diversity in game characters. Whether or not the developers/publishers listen is another thing. After all like we found out with The Last of Us, they seem to not want to even bring women in to test the game, so I guess all we can do with others is keep asking, or be louder.
Then, all we must do is buy the games with characters that we find to be more diverse(in this particular case, women who aren't made to be overly "sexy"), and maybe tell them why we bought the game with a short email. We can still buy games that don't of course. Heck, buy Dragon's Crown and you can do both. It has some over sexualized female characters, as well as some that aren't like the elf archer.
Also, while people are not being hurt physically, or insulted directly by the overuse of some characters in games. It is making some feel bad, or uncomfortable.
Though some points in this video may be redundant, Jim is not beating a dead horse. The horse is not dead until we see some honest-to-God change in gaming culture.
Also worth mentioning: Can you really blame Jim for going after the topic of "Gender Roles and Gaming" when it has repeatedly generated more discussion than almost any other topic? I'm sure Jim wouldn't continue making episodes about it if the viewers didn't create such a stir each time. That stir can be seen as evidence that the issue is in the back of many people's minds, and therefore needs to be continuously talked about.
Also worth mentioning: Can you really blame Jim for going after the topic of "Gender Roles and Gaming" when it has repeatedly generated more discussion than almost any other topic? I'm sure Jim wouldn't continue making episodes about it if the viewers didn't create such a stir each time. That stir can be seen as evidence that the issue is in the back of many people's minds, and therefore needs to be continuously talked about.
If you want things to change, you have to make the effort yourself. You can't point the finger at the industry and accuse them of being sexist pigs just because they're not looking out for your personal interests. That's just lazy. There seem to be plenty of people that are fed up with the way things are, just like there are plenty of people who feel like things are just fine. The people that are fed up should make an assessment of how much they really care, find a group of likeminded individuals and start making the videogames that they themselves would like to see, which is exactly what every other developer out there did. They had a vision and they made it happen, they didn't try to guilt trip some faceless industry into doing it for them. If you can't be bothered to put in the hard work, then maybe you don't really care, maybe you're just looking for something to be mad about.
A line of argument I saw a woman use in another one of these topics in fact. She basically said more or less the same thing, that she doesn't have a problem with these fictional characters as her sense of self worth isn't determined by attractive characters.Redd the Sock said:
A point I can certainly understand and get behind, as I also don't look at any fictional characters and think they are an idealised person I should try and be like.
But I don't think that is the reason for why a lot of people don't like them. I think the reason is because they believe that it reduces women's importance down to their physical appearance, that the characters personality, thoughts and feelings are seen as unimportant, whereas their physical appearance is.
I can definitely follow that line of argument in regards to characters who are practically nothing beyond "sex appeal" such as Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2; but I also frequently see people who object to women being sexy, even if they are also an amazing character beyond that. Which to me is not a fair judgement to make.
In a thread yesterday somebody used Jill Valentine as an example of a good character who wasn't just there for sex appeal. The rebuke was that she is now more sexy, and that's a bad thing. As if being more sexy negates all of the positive traits about her character.
It suggests to me the idea that a woman cannot be taken seriously if she is also sexually attractive, and that is something I find pretty offensive.
A misinterpretation made to sound like it had anything to do with gender.Darth_Payn said:
Basically people asked why Bioshock Infinite cover art had a clichéd grizzled male protagonist staring off into the distance, when the game is not just another shooter. Ken Levine said that the cover doesn't need to appeal to the people who are already into the game, as people who like the series are not using the cover as a means of deciding whether to get it.
The cover is meant to advertise to people who may not have heard of it. People who don't follow games like the people on here do, and will walk into a game store, pick up the boxes of games that catch their eye, and then flip them over to find out more info on the back.
That's why the cover is the way that it is. He wanted to appeal to the general action/shooter crowd who might otherwise never have heard of Bioshock. So copying the kind of cover you typically see on a military shooter such as Battlefield is probably a smart way to go about it.
People are then using that as a "Having a woman on the box will scare men off!" when the reason was purely to try and appeal to the kind of person who plays games like COD. It's not that it might scare them off, it's that it's not effective marketing.
I don't think the point is that the "ideal" woman for women can't be sexy. What is being said is that they don't have to look likeEve Charm said:
For an example Jim pulled from the same game, they could look like
Female objectification in games is a double edged sword. Male gamers fail to realize that they are being objectified as well, by the developers and marketing strategists. We're basically viewed as cash dispensing drooling perverts, jerking off in our smelly little rooms, careful not to wake our parents, while our hidden homoerotic tendencies (we're all homophobes, aren't we?) make us faint at the sight of our virtual muscles and surreal heroism. Of course, that is true for a LOT of people, but those more intelligent and educated of us should see objectification for the insult it is.
Of course, this is more true for movies or TV series which feel that they can't keep our interest unless they show titties every 10 minutes or so. Or the gratuitous sex scenes that you find in any Hollywood movie these days. If I were to list a long list of my favorite movies, almost none of them features any sex scenes, unless integral to the plot and usually awkward, and most don't even have a single little kiss.
Funny then that we should point at games as the bad neighborhood of sexual objectification. Some of the most successful games don't even feature humans at all.
Of course, this is more true for movies or TV series which feel that they can't keep our interest unless they show titties every 10 minutes or so. Or the gratuitous sex scenes that you find in any Hollywood movie these days. If I were to list a long list of my favorite movies, almost none of them features any sex scenes, unless integral to the plot and usually awkward, and most don't even have a single little kiss.
Funny then that we should point at games as the bad neighborhood of sexual objectification. Some of the most successful games don't even feature humans at all.
Well that's sort of the problem. Jim did a fine job of differentiating between objectification and idealization, but without demonstrating that idealization doesn't cause many or all of the exact same problems as objectification, I don't know that we're doing ourselves a favor by pretending they don't have a lot in common. Some might argue that idealization is, in fact, a form of objectification, and therefore carries all the same baggage. I don't claim that to be true, but I'd like to see it discussed.Red X said:Ha! Jim cam!
Anyway, great vid. Nice to see a direct way differentiate the roles of women and men in games.
Although i don't think anyone should want to be Nathan Drake, he's a bigger douche than Kratos XD
Firstly, this is the first time I've even heard of people using the defense of "males are equally objectified", I mean who the hell has said that and actually been taken seriously? Especially seriously enough for Jim to do a whole VIDEO about? Are topics that scarce Jim?
I heard some people say "my steak pie wasn't tasty and therefore female objectification is fine", lets have you respond to that with a whole video, yeah?
Secondly, I lost all interest in the video at "half of all gamers are women" because I knew that the rest of the video would be based around that bullshit figure, as if it's an established fact. Games are made by men for men, correct, so if HALF of women were truly playing the same games then where the fuck is the market that caters for them?
It would make no logical sense because market is driven by consumer demand. I cannot stress enough how much consumer demand is the driving force behind almost everything, what will sell WILL be created and sold. If the demand from females was that much (50%!) we would've seen 50% of all games at this point catering to them and at least 40-50% of game developers being female and making some goddamn games. This is simply not the case.
So half of gamers are females wanting to play games but they don't feel like getting into game development? What kind of logic is this? Explain that logic error, please, someone, anyone.
Show me a breakdown by genre/category that women represent half of all gamers in every aspect I will bend over and eat my own shit. Show me that roughly half of the gamers playing first person shooters, real time strategy, role playing, etc etc are female and I'll admit defeat.
No, don't show me that one ESRB report that completely skewed the fuck out of results by counting in the MILLIONS of iPhone and Facebook gamers because you're only fooling yourself if you really believe that a girl sitting down to play another hour of Farmville counts as a female gamer. Jim (and pretty much every feminist) are mostly talking about big-budget AAA games released on major platforms, not goddamn flash/java games or Tetris equivalents.
I heard some people say "my steak pie wasn't tasty and therefore female objectification is fine", lets have you respond to that with a whole video, yeah?
Secondly, I lost all interest in the video at "half of all gamers are women" because I knew that the rest of the video would be based around that bullshit figure, as if it's an established fact. Games are made by men for men, correct, so if HALF of women were truly playing the same games then where the fuck is the market that caters for them?
It would make no logical sense because market is driven by consumer demand. I cannot stress enough how much consumer demand is the driving force behind almost everything, what will sell WILL be created and sold. If the demand from females was that much (50%!) we would've seen 50% of all games at this point catering to them and at least 40-50% of game developers being female and making some goddamn games. This is simply not the case.
So half of gamers are females wanting to play games but they don't feel like getting into game development? What kind of logic is this? Explain that logic error, please, someone, anyone.
Show me a breakdown by genre/category that women represent half of all gamers in every aspect I will bend over and eat my own shit. Show me that roughly half of the gamers playing first person shooters, real time strategy, role playing, etc etc are female and I'll admit defeat.
No, don't show me that one ESRB report that completely skewed the fuck out of results by counting in the MILLIONS of iPhone and Facebook gamers because you're only fooling yourself if you really believe that a girl sitting down to play another hour of Farmville counts as a female gamer. Jim (and pretty much every feminist) are mostly talking about big-budget AAA games released on major platforms, not goddamn flash/java games or Tetris equivalents.
Jimothy Sterling said:
This is actually the first time I've heard, or at least can recall, it put this way. That is,'men in video games are idealized versions of how we're suppose to be.' Yes, that makes obvious sense now that you've compared and contrasted the point, but perhaps it's because that idealization is so pervasive through our media-culture it just didn't make a blip on my RADAR.
But, that being said, from what I can remember every time I've seen a video along these lines, on this website, Extra Credits, and The Big Picture it always gets half-way through the thought, and settles on the same points you made about women while not touching male characters much. The compare and contrast between objectification & Idealization, has until now, escaped me. Come to think of it Yahtzee is probably the only person who consistently critiques those walking golems with sidewalk slabs as pecs.
Anyway, Thank God for you, or else I might have slipped into my twilight years, (30+) without having had that, 'ah hah,' moment about men in video games.