Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[Spearmaster]

snip

Almost like its a sea of Developers/Publishers out there that most likely hear and see what people are asking for and either don't want to take the risk of something new or figure someone else will do it, kinda punting the football around.

On the other side how does it help the cause when games from these same developers are attacked for making something, either a character choice or a whole game design, that is clearly designed by or for a certain groups taste, in most cases men? I'm sure most of this comes from the most extreme of the group but it results in a defensive response from a lot of male gamers, one of those defensive responses is what this weeks Jimquisition was about.

So it leaves me to question how attacking a game to the point of causing male gamers to defensively try to justify the existence of the game is a way of asking the industry for better representation of women. I hear from mostly level headed people that all seem to want the same thing and I'm on board with it but attacking games or game characters that were clearly meant to stimulate the male heterosexual population just comes off as a way of saying those games or character should not exist and men should not be allowed have them. (some people actually do believe this btw)

Saying "this game is a sexist piece of shit" and saying "this game is clearly for men, I wish we had games that were for everyone" is not the same thing. The difference is destructive versus constructive dialog.

It's a final straw thing for some people. I think some games for men should be a "sexist piece of shit". Maxim exists for a reason. But Maxim is "sexist piece of shit" demographic chasing. Most games are not specifically "sexist piece of shit" chasing, they just happen to ignore the female demographic, and then the game equivalent of Maxim is targeted due to frustration.


Dead or Alive is what it is and I think most people accept that but it's a good example of how stupid a demographic that they're targeting

Dragons Crown I don't really have a problem with....

----- Apart from the blank emotionless child faces on the female characters. Seriously... Tits, ass and inappropriate clothing: Fine...... Having the same very-teen, anime, emotionally-blank, face on every female character: Makes me frown because its a little dehumanising.-----

I'm annoyed that Soul Calibur went from simply having sexy characters to going for absurd boob-physix titillation.

I'm annoyed that female protagonists are verboten.

I'm annoyed that there isn't the game version of Ellen Ripley or Hermione Granger or Arya Stark.

So it's easy to point to DoA or Dragon's Crown and ask why so much of this "sexist piece of shit" exists and why more interesting, realistic female characters don't exist.

So its more so the frustration of seeing yet another game featuring large breasts and skimpy clothing and having no game or not enough games out there to provide the counter balance. I can understand the frustration I just wish attacking games was not the only option to get attention because it can send the wrong message.

 

[1337mokro]

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Yet you never wondered how he shaves his face?

Anyway, I remember an episode of Lois and Clark where he shaved by reflecting his eye lasers with a mirror. I guess his skin is tougher than his hair, and the strength of his laser vision falls nicely between the two.

It was just a joke and someone already beat you to the punch with video of both the TV series and the animated series.

 

[ferrishthefish]

Magic Mike was popular because it had male strippers, not because it had "sensitive direction, smart screenplay, and strong performances."

That's like saying Inglourious Basterds was popular because it had Jews, not because it was a good movie. I'm sorry, but I'm really not buying this logic.

Well it didn't hurt Fallout New Vegas sales to have male prostitutes and male strippers. I haven't heard a single complaint from any man who has played the game about these dudes. It's as if they didn't care and were mature enough to realize male prostitutes and strippers exist without harming their straight sexualities.

So male gamers should be mature enough to not care about male strippers, but female gamers have all the right in the world to complain about female strippers? And here you are suggesting that I'M the one with double standards?

 

[G-Force]

An example of how stupid this can get ...

Does anyone know of a game where you play as a 27 year old man who is

- slightly overweight
- has a long scruffy ponytail
- who has a beard because they are too lazy to shave


Anyone

Anyone ?

What a shame guess i cannot play any more games then.


see how stupid this can get

Any game that allows me to make my own character. See Saints Row as a more recent example.

 

[SeanSeanston]

Funny how having attractive women in games counts as something trivial and essentially nonsensically made-up like "objectification", which is obviously a huge emergency for world society...

...meanwhile, if somebody mentioned that games were being insensitive by routinely depicting the disproportionate mass slaughter of men (and usually only men), they'd be disregarded out of hand, despite the fact that is an ACTUAL thing that happens in the ACTUAL real world causing the deaths of many actual people who's being male was a massive factor in their being exposed to an early and violent death, and you could legitimately make an argument for the inclusion of such things in media (usually along with the avoidance of depicting violence that occurs to women, which is a very rare thing in both the real and fictional worlds) reinforcing society's idea of violence being ok or at least reasonably acceptable as long as it's happening to men.

But don't worry, women have bigger problems. Like what to do with their extended lifespans which are partly explainable by sexist attitudes that result in greater spending for female-specific healthcare despite men paying a disproportionately high amount of tax.

Also imaginary wage gaps. That's a big one.

EDIT: And to tackle the actual issue more specifically...

Why is it that these "power fantasy" male characters tend to:

A. Not look at all like stereotypically strong men.
B. Tend rather to mostly look like fitness models.
C. Happen to look exactly like a male character designed for the sexual gratification of heterosexual/bisexual females and/or homosexual/bisexual males?

C. is also important in the sense that part of the "men want to be him" concept is that men want to be what women want to have, as an observation.

Then we get the old bollocks of "not enough women in the games industry" and "games are too focused on male demographics", even when we have male characters that LOOK EXACTLY LIKE THEY WERE TARGETED AT WOMEN. It's not important whether they were or not when it's the SAME RESULT. And this is from companies where SOME DEVELOPERS ACTUALLY ARE WOMEN, which I think must be at least reasonably important to point out.

There is absolutely no winning, is there?... *Sigh* I think people should just give up as soon as they realize they've been born male, because it really seems not to be worth the hassle sometimes -_-

EDIT: Oh and another thing is... some may point out "well.... those characters don't look like men [I/most women/some women/somebody else] would be attracted to".

So?

Do all men find all female game characters sexy? Do most? Do most find most sexy?

Christ, they're GAME CHARACTERS to begin with. You're not even meant to find them particularly sexy in the first place.

EDIT: Oh and as a closing note, I also don't like that someone is automatically a "perv" or some such if their sexuality operates in a way different from someone else, or in a way that they don't like.
If men happen to place more value on X or Y than a woman does, I guess that makes them shallow.

Perhaps men should just start judging women by factors like height and wealth instead, then maybe they'd be happy? ;D

 

[Lightknight]

I only really wish to chime in regarding one regularly repeated piece of information that is misleading and will touch on some other concepts following it.

The gamer ratio being male/female as 53%/47% does not mean that the FPS ration is 53%/47% or that the gamers playing Uncharted or anything else would follow that ratio. The last study that actually broke up console ownership by sex actually put 80% of all female console gamers in the study as Wii gamers. This was 2008/2009 when the demographic divide was 60%/40% and it isn't entirely unlikely that the evening of the gaming ratio isn't related to the rapid integration of smart phones and iOS games at our fingertips over the past 5 or so years.

I'm not saying this makes objectification of women ok. They are clearly objectified in a ton of games as defined here by Jim and the men are not. This is only to point out that the real market audience of games like Gears of War may still be significantly more male than female. The question is, does that make it ok? Does that change anything here? If the ratio were as wildly out of whack as 90%/10% would that justify the kind of silliness we've seen in the DOA titles? Would making female friendly games encourage female participation or is there an actual different in gaming styles between the sexes (whether evolved or culturally based, doesn't functionally matter)? Are movies that objectify women wrong for doing so or are they justified for meeting a niche market?

I'd also posit that women have body parts that lend themselves to exaggeration. Breasts, ass, legs, hip ratios, these are easily demonstrated and easily exaggerated. There's not a ton you can exaggerate on a man that is desireable to people other than muscles, a toned ass and perhaps some kind of bulge in ye' ol' panteloons region. To that effect, I would like to believe that if men had things that were so easily exaggerated that they would be as well, and, guys would probably want it to be. In the same vein, I have known women who want to look the way the women look in these games and will actually surgically change themselves to exaggerate their own features in this way. It is merely an interesting concept that women physically do this to themselves as well. Just something to think about.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Perhaps I might see it, however I can't personally nor do I know of any other male who can even remotely be described as constantly leering, nor do I personally know a single woman who has ever complained that they are being leered at 24/7. I just don't buy it.

I said neither of those things.

I didn't say that men were constantly leering, nor did I say that women get leered at 24/7. I just said that many women get leered at every day. It might be only for 5 minutes per day. And it doesn't mean that the man leers at everything he sees. But women are pretty consistently leered at. Men, not so much.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Well, you just read me writing it. It may not be the same as hearing someone say it, but there it is. If more cars on the road were more like BMWs, then that would be a good thing. I don't feel superior because not everyone can afford one. It would be fantastic if more people drove them. It's not something that makes me feel insecure. They are very good cars - why wouldn't I want more people to drive such good cars? It would make the roads safer and more pleasant to drive on.

Which are two selfish reasons to want to spread BMW's. So my point stands.

Not really. Even if there is some selfish motivation, it still improves things for others. And how is considering the safety and pleasure of others selfish, anyway?

You seem to be revising your "point" - you claimed that people do not or should not consider other people in their purchasing decisions. I offered a counter-example. The good of others often improves the good of oneself. The betterment of society also tends to increase the betterment of the individual. So making choices that purely concern yourself, don't tend to be great choices.

And how are they problematic? And the monetary reasons are bullshit? So you have conducted market studies ?

Market studies? That would assume that "the market" is the only thing that matters, and making money is the sole measure of worth. You may believe that, but I do not.

As for completely one-sides gender portrayals being problematic, then if you can't see that, then I can't help you.

I'm sorry that I would put more faith in a marketing department of a big company which probably spend a lot of time studying the market than a random poster who probably only has his word to back up the claim it's not a monetary sound business practice. The fact it's less exploited doesn't mean it's more profitable, niche markets for example are usually de-facto less exploited but you won't see every big business venturing in them exactly because it's a niche market.
Gaming companies are run by people who want to make profit, not bro dudes who want to exclude women.

How are women a "niche market"? They are the majority of the population.

I'm also not sure why you put such blind faith in marketers and companies. Companies and marketers fail all the time, often spectacularly. I wouldn't trust them to understand human beings. They tend to run on momentum and flawed assumptions, not intelligence or evidence. And many game companies do tend to be composed of bro dudes who want to exclude women.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

...meanwhile, if somebody mentioned that games were being insensitive by routinely depicting the disproportionate mass slaughter of men (and usually only men), they'd be disregarded out of hand, ...

I don't disregard that out-of-hand. I think it's actually a significant issue in gaming.

 

[MrsBloo]

"I want to see more women getting interested in games and game development, but stuff like this only serves to further cement the idea that you're stepping into a male hobby rather than something that is more inclusive"

"No way, it's totally impossible to make characters that men and women can both enjoy and find cool! Better stop with that line of reasoning fast, or the next thing you know we'll have to start being clever and insightful about how we approach this kind of stuff and that's just way too much to ask of people who do this for a living." -Chemical Alia


There is so much id like to say, yet sum up with a punch to your face because honestly, how you've represented yourself, this is the only logical thing to do. However, I will humor your silly yet inaccurate fight for sexism and your lack of ability to apply yourself to the fullest potential as a video game artist.

You cannot be more wrong or misspoken than you have already shown yourself as. You do not and cannot speak for all women. This is a FACT for your opinion.

Chemical Alia aka Shaylyn Hamm, this is why you were not sought for in character design and only what you were educated in, environmental art. Apparently there is a lot you need to learn about in the industry. like How you represent yourself and how you will always represent the company you work for. I believe this is why we so often see ignorant and childish statements like yours followed by an apology.

The look of an individual CANNOT be sexist. Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex. Sexist attitudes may stem from traditional stereotypes of gender roles, and may include the belief that a person of one sex is intrinsically superior to a person of the other.

If a beautiful voluptuous woman walks down the street wearing the same outfit as the Sorceress would that mean she is being sexist? Or That she is a very confident woman that is not ashamed of her body? Some girls, dont like to show skin. Others do and some too much. But shouldn't one always be happy with their body appearance? Should one always cover up because another says that;s the way? No.

Your opinion and attitude is Very immature and ignorant in the practice of art and gaming. And clearly are not a REAL artist. I am not talking about your background or ability, more rather the fact that as an "artist" you failed to appreciate another artists stroke of the pen. instead of criticism you showed judgment and jealousy. And nothing of professional standard.

I am a female and I play games, as you like to say "male based games" and neutral based games. Even the games that are considered girl based games. Seeing a sexier chick on a game is not going to make me want to NOT play. wtf? I love this shit. Its Super sexy and can be badass. If anything, This is even incorporating Thick, voluptuous woman. Instead of super unrealistic skinny chicks with just as big of boobs. I see curves and confidence I see a necromancer.

This is fantasy, i dont want normal girls, i see that everyday in life! Laaaaaame.

****Did i mention, I am a female? Did I mention I was going to buy this game, cause i am. Did I mention why?Cause me and my Bf agree, the sorceress, shes totally hot <3

 

[generals3]

Well, you just read me writing it. It may not be the same as hearing someone say it, but there it is. If more cars on the road were more like BMWs, then that would be a good thing. I don't feel superior because not everyone can afford one. It would be fantastic if more people drove them. It's not something that makes me feel insecure. They are very good cars - why wouldn't I want more people to drive such good cars? It would make the roads safer and more pleasant to drive on.

Which are two selfish reasons to want to spread BMW's. So my point stands.

Not really. Even if there is some selfish motivation, it still improves things for others. And how is considering the safety and pleasure of others selfish, anyway?

You seem to be revising your "point" - you claimed that people do not or should not consider other people in their purchasing decisions. I offered a counter-example. The good of others often improves the good of oneself. The betterment of society also tends to increase the betterment of the individual. So making choices that purely concern yourself, don't tend to be great choices.

I don't revise anything. My point was that consumers rarely go lobby for other people's preferences. You justified your choice for wanting others to have BMW's because it'd make the streets more pleasant to drive on. Unless you don't like driving on pleasant streets it's obvious it is for you that you're lobbying. That it happens to make others happier is just a happy coincidence. If i lobby for a certain sets of games it may make other consumers who have the same preferences happy as well, but it's not for them i do it.(though i may use others as an extra justification for my argument, which what i'd call "abusing emotional response to altruism", a very common type of emotional appeal) The altruistic consumer is a very rare breed.

And how are they problematic? And the monetary reasons are bullshit? So you have conducted market studies ?

Market studies? That would assume that "the market" is the only thing that matters, and making money is the sole measure of worth. You may believe that, but I do not.

You claimed the monetary reasons are BS. If you wanted to use other arguments to defend your opinion you should have done so. You tried to recycle my own argument against my own point.

As for completely one-sides gender portrayals being problematic, then if you can't see that, then I can't help you.

But let's push it a bit further than shall we. What about how few games feature black people? What about muslims? Etc. There is no inherent need to include everyone. If a game decides to have only important male characters you'd need a damn fine argument to say WHY that is bad because by default it isn't. You see if you have a game which tries to mimick real life and shows thousands of NPC's and none are women you could raise your eyebrow because that would seem as a very bad representation of Real Life. But in a random fantasy game or one which only features a very limited set of characters, it's a whole different piece of cake.

How are women a "niche market"? They are the majority of the population.

I'm also not sure why you put such blind faith in marketers and companies. Companies and marketers fail all the time, often spectacularly. I wouldn't trust them to understand human beings. They tend to run on momentum and flawed assumptions, not intelligence or evidence. And many game companies do tend to be composed of bro dudes who want to exclude women.

Ok let me clarify something. If you make a game you don't target all women nor all men for that matter. You target potential costumers. If the potential costumers happen to be predominantly men than that's what you want to target. The cosmetic industry also largely ignores men despite men accounting for 49% of the population and let me tell you there is a good reason for that, because said 49% is in general much less interested in beauty products. So while you may have 3.6 billion women and 3.4 billion men (random number, didn't feel like googling the real number because it is largely irrelevant) you'll probably have something like 3 billion potential female costumers and 1 billion potential male costumers. Which would totally justify a much bigger focus on the female segment.

 

[Cellseam]

I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?

GEE, that's an interesting point, that has nothing to do with this video. This video is about sexual objectification, not role models.

 

[Ikasury]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

i just have this urge to comment on this: OH GOD!! MY EYES!! THEY BURN!! THEY BUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRN!! x.x

on a more productive note... *sigh* i get this has been going on a bit (600-something comments in like 2days? hmm?) and whilst skimming i found it funny the constant call backs to Mass Effect and Uncharted, i'm going to completely disregard Uncharted as i haven't played it, but as a female gamer i do not find whatshisname M!Laura Croft appealing... at all... i don't get why everyone's on him supposedly being 'hawt' when i haven't met a single straight woman or gay man that says so *shrugs* but oh MASS EFFECT!! but more importantly, THE ASARI!! these modern takes on the old school scifi nerdism of 'GREEN SKIN CHICKS!!' from Trek, and now brought into the 'new' world of scifi gaming for more nerdism of 'BLUE SKIN CHICKS!!' sigh... i always find the sheer concept of them hilarious, because women will get all huffy and be like 'no lesbianism, bleh!' while guys are like 'yay lesbianism, woo!' when the 'reality' of this fictional verse is they... aren't... female... really... 'female' requires a counterpoint 'male', and both words only really exist to explain the difference of the other, so with them being 'monogendered' and therefore having the 'features necessary for breeding/caretaking' Ie: boobs... if you REALLY want to think about it they 'aren't' female... so its funny to me for people to get all up on using them for any kind of 'gender' anything...

as a straight woman do i find Asari hot? yes, i will not deny that, i had my shep, male or female, hit on every Asari possible, they are awesome! do i find the 'female' characters the same level of 'hawt'? oddly... no... no i don't? *shrugs* the furthest i can get with the other 'female' cast is what would be the equivalent of 'bromance' or heterosexual-lifemate kind of deal... but i can comfortablly yell to the edges of the world 'i would totally hit that' in the case of an Asari... MAYBE its just that i recognize the whole 'they aren't really women' thing, but really that didn't 'click' to me till the end of ME2 and Samara rebuked me due to 'plot' *shrugs* but i find them a fascinating example of just gender-typing, many of the Asari actually display rather 'male-dominated' personalities, Tavos and Aria particularly, even Samara could be considered that 'old school samurai' type, while others are clearly more feminine, Liara, but the thing that i LIKE about them, is that well this is 'normal' to them, in context, they're like a great example in a main stream game of 'gender neutrality', ironic being that they are monogendered despite everyone considering them 'female' and that's all 'okay'?

but Mass Effect is also 'good' for this arguement with the whole differences of male/female shep... playing as F!Shepard, to be honest, the only person i WANTED to end up with was Liara... why? none of the 'guys' were all that 'interesting'... and for the sake of 'plot' they seemed better off as bromates... yet M!Shepard has this wide array of 'oh yea, i can totally hit that!' and i watched one of my girlfriends play it so her M!Shep was literally sleeping around with EVERYONE at once... then both me and her sat back and sighed deeply about how 'easy' that was, yet neither of us could say jack about the 'dudes' we could get as F!Shep... we both just ended up going for Liara as 'default' because out of the 'guys' available, REALLY 'she' was the best pick... looks, brains, empathy, life-expectancy, etc. my question to the 'writer-gods' is 'what does that tell you? when two straight woman agree to go for the psudo-woman instead of the plethora of dudes available?'

*shrugs* guys in games just aren't 'appealing' like 'chicks' in games are i guess... but it might just be an appeal thing, you can't really 'exagerate' guys anatomy like you can women, else it just gets really gross... and in order to 'understand' what would appeal to a female gamer we'd need more women actually involved in writing, i tried this once and got ignored and regaled to 'give me sidequests' -.- so maybe its just a need to drop everything and start over somewhere...

 

[Lightknight]

I'll repeat that society does not emphasize major components of men aside from the genitalia which the US shy away from displaying in readily available media. Society has historically and in modern times emphasized female beauty and as such, the female form. Breasts, Legs, Hips, Ass, and facial symmetry. These things are easy to exaggerate and often have desireable proportions that do not always align themselves with numbers that are physically possible. Manga exaggeration of the eyes is an easy and non-controversial example of such exaggeration (just talking about the eyes here).

I would posit that if we were crab people (bear with me) and crab women were more attracted to crab men with large right claws, that our video game male protagonists would have right claws of epic proportions. As is, all we've got is muscles toned or bulked, being tall, buns of steel if women are to be believed, a pretty or rugged face depending on tastes, and maybe a slightly telling bulge in the pants area but no more due to US policies on that region. These things are often exaggerated. But they can't be exaggerated in the same way and still be attractive.

This doesn't make objectification right by any means. This is just a perspective to understand. Women in videogames are objectified more for their role in games than their physical attributes. But come on, chainmail bikini? I think we do know exploitation and objectification when we see it. At least make the garments functional where relevant.

At the end of the day though, you have to answer these two questions. What qualifies as an appropriate female body in videogames and who gets to decide those proportions? I don't know that there can ever be a right answer to that. I don't think any of us know where the actual line is. We can't exactly spell it out but we know when we see it. That's kind of an interesting paradox. We don't know exactly what we don't want, but we know we don't want it when we see it. Jim, correctly showed DOA videos. These are obvious examples. But I assure you that many more blur the line and there are others out there, even women, who just see those examples and want to play as those characters.

 

[Sticky]

Polite Snip

Maybe that was one too many hits to put at Chemical Alia, but I also feel that this is one of the best post in the whole thread. I wish it could just be re-pasted every time we have this discussion

In fact, I almost feel that this is the conclusion most of these threads eventually arrive at. Good work to you.

 

[chadachada123]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

I actually feel that this next image is a pretty good reply, since men and women are sexualized in pretty different manners (women for fertility, men for power):

 

[Lightknight]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

I'm unsure of the intended point here. These are men dressed in drag versions of their regular costumes without changing any physical features.

How is that commentary on men being objectified as men and not just making them feminine?

It's difficult to exaggerate male features without quickly entering the realm of grotesque. Again, if men had a compontent that was particularly desireable (and viewable in non-mature/adult games), then the male protagonists would absolutely have the biggest/best/orangest or whatever adjective pushes it towards more attractive exaggeration of that component. And, I dare say men would want to play as that.

The problem of objectification of women in games is moreso their role than proportions. That picture does shed good like on how women likely feel when they see a female character wearing a chainmail bikini to battle.

Aha, @chadachada123 beat me to it. Darn.

 

[Chemical Alia]

snip

Those are some pretty cool facts that you kinda just...made up...

Lol, why are you even bringing this up? Are you really so offended that I happen to occasionally be opinionated about the art that I see on a daily basis? I never claimed to speak for all women, or all artists, thank you very much. ^_^

If a beautiful voluptuous woman walks down the street wearing the same outfit as the Sorceress would that mean she is being sexist? Or That she is a very confident woman that is not ashamed of her body? Some girls, dont like to show skin. Others do and some too much. But shouldn't one always be happy with their body appearance? Should one always cover up because another says that;s the way? No.

I wouldn't care either way. As long as no fedoras are involved, I couldn't care less about the fashion sense of other people. I see nothing wrong with choosing to dress sexy, conservatively, or anywhere in between, if that's what makes them happy. Video game characters don't choose what they wear, though. When I see a character, I look at the design and presentation choices the artist made, and how they fit in with the other character, the theme, etc.

In the case of Dragon whatever it's called, it's not even the outfits that put it over the edge for me. There's a time and a place for all that kind of stuff, and a game like that is honestly probably a perfect match. No, what got to me was actually the blank, child-like samefaces with no expression, combined with their poses in that drawing. If there was some emotion or sense of personality beyond the pose, it might have conveyed some more depth to the character beyond the ridiculous sexypose. And frankly, if you're going for something as outlandish as that, it feels like a huge missed opportunity to provide a more interesting character. Little things like that can make a huge difference in how your art is perceived, and that's what I hope more artists to become mindful of.

Also for the record, I'm educated in fine art, not whatever it was you assumed. Environment is what I do because that's the job I applied for, not because I was driven into it by outside forces or was specifically "trained" for it. I'm more of a generalist these days, but I've been getting a lot more into character art lately and I to get more into it in the future. I hope that doesn't upset you too much.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your neat opinions and your artistic interpretation of my own opinions. I hope we can still be friends.

 

[Gigano]

Well, I'm still stuck on grasping the whole "objectification of fictatious characters is bad" thing. Or real people, for that matter, since everyone seem to be perfectly fine viewing a cashier as an object used for payment, without taking any interest in the totality of his person.

Given how unremarkable and dull most people are, it seems quite spoiled to demand that everyone take interest in one's person, rather than one's uses. This whole objectification stick seems a combination of that arrogant cry for attention, and a negative attitude towards sex and sexuality.

 

[Yuuki]

In fact the only thing the complaining has so far achieved, is having studios cease to release products with female protagonists, because they can do without the next barrage of complaints from a group of self imposed PC police, hiding behind monitors specifically looking for something to complain about: ala, the NOT rape of Lara Croft for instance.

This is something I feel is one of the roots of the issue, I had said a while ago when Anita's crusade started that the safest thing a developer can do to steer clear of this bullshit controversy is to NOT have a female protagonist, preferably not even a single female character.

It's no wonder that games like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Dead Space, Far Cry, Prototype, Infamous, Metro etc series have slipped past all of this nonsense and made untold millions without a single hint of gender controversy.

Hell if I were a developer I'm afraid I would simply avoid having female characters till this shitstorm blows over, it's just a huge risk and attracts nothing but bad press and politically-correct fuckwits who get "offended" even if you breathe in their direction.

If a food critic becomes particularly obnoxious the best thing to do is not give them any food