So Rebel Raven what are your thoughts on the idea that the romance genre is the other side of the coin here? That stereotypically it was a female dominated field and had male sexual objectification? How do you feel about the idea that the main issue here as the more popular focus video games and scifi/fantasy in general were left to geeks and nerds deliberately by the majority of women and a good potion of men who considered it weird and worth of ridicule? Or how about the unfair stigma placed on the genre until the last decade?
Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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It's a shame Rebel Raven seemed to have missed my posts entirely.As it is a shame no one wants to comment on the fact that women do have a genre where sexual objectification of men occurs.
Another thing is to point a tricker subject to handle. And that subject has a perfect example in its most recent successful franchise....Twilight.
Twilight is not very feminist friendly. It has Edward Cullen engaging in extremely possessive and stalker like acts, and Bella Swan is not a good female roll model.
But it was written by a woman for women and was far more popular and in fact a sensation in the western world with women then it would ever be with men.
However I do think a part of the reason why women still enjoyed this despite the real lack of agency in the series is the fact that they did realize it was not real and a fantasy. The fantastical elements allowed Edward's actions to come across as they were intended, romantically, instead of creepy. And if girls and women can understand that difference between real life morals and harmless fantasy, then boys and men can as well.
Another thing is to point a tricker subject to handle. And that subject has a perfect example in its most recent successful franchise....Twilight.
Twilight is not very feminist friendly. It has Edward Cullen engaging in extremely possessive and stalker like acts, and Bella Swan is not a good female roll model.
But it was written by a woman for women and was far more popular and in fact a sensation in the western world with women then it would ever be with men.
However I do think a part of the reason why women still enjoyed this despite the real lack of agency in the series is the fact that they did realize it was not real and a fantasy. The fantastical elements allowed Edward's actions to come across as they were intended, romantically, instead of creepy. And if girls and women can understand that difference between real life morals and harmless fantasy, then boys and men can as well.
It might've helped if you quoted me at all.WarpedintheHead said:
Thread's been quiet a while so I left it alone.Your argument is entirely unfair on so many levels.
You're taking a genre of novels, separating it from every other genre of novels, and comparing it to a media in it's entirity in videogames.
Novels have a long long history of objectifying women. They also objectify everyone for the most part. They are the way they're written, and that won't vary from copy of the book to copy of the book aside from a few genres like pick your own adventure, or something.
Male/female only protagonists aren't a genre. If they were, I'd have an easier time finding female only protagonsit games, and games with gender select. The objectification, idealization, allowed agency, and the general problems both male characters, and female characters have (some shared, but for the most part they are dififrent problems, and unequal IMO.) goes across every genre of gaming from sci-fi to romance to sports to FPS to TPS to racing, and so forth.
If you didn't limit it to one genre we'd have something to talk about that was fair, but, well, I'd say novels suffer a lot of the problems videogames do.
Videogames do have a Romance Genre, but it's largely unknown to me as it's largely in asian languages, and on PC. I can't comment all too well, but odds are, yes there's the same objectification towards men... then again do dating sims count? If so, then it's still hugely slanted against women as most dating sim protagonsits are men AFAIK. This gets compounded by the fact that a lot of porn games are in the dating sim format.
Videogames seem like an extension from Dungeons and Dragons, table top games, and card games to me. Largely something men did in groups, exluded women, and generally set the tone for videogame. Seen as toys and, and immature medium that society as a whole looked down on because adults shouldn't be playing at all, as opposed to working, and being responsible!
Videogames have also long been viewed as "toys" and thus a matter of immaturity. Women generally mature faster, and were/are expected to be more mature, so they were generally pressured to avoid playing them. They still are. Something of a secret shame like grown men watching cartoons, and playing with toys or something. The whole "They aren't dolls, they're action figures" thing of old comes to mind.
Pressure to be seen as "mature" is lifting on women, it seems, or videogames are being more and more respected as a more mature media that there's more female gamers coming out of the shadows, though.
Lets not forget the extremely toxic environment women face in videogames today. Especially in insult heavy games like FPS games, and other highly compeditive games. It's by no means limited to that, though. No doubt they've dealt with that in other gaming communities.
Anonyminity is a ticket to be utter bastards for some. It's not limited to men, either. There are women who troll, and such, though, but it seems rarer.
Lets not discount other areas of gaming that aren't too welcoming of women, and those who speak up about the inequities they face, like threads like these. Anita, and even our own Jim are taking flak for standing up for women in games by people who're defending the status quo. Spend some time in that field, and you'll understand some of the slings, and arrows people will loose in your direction.
The industry itself is filled with sexist, preconceived notions towards men, and women, but that's across businesses in general, I'm sure. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/women-use-twitter-expose-video-game-industry-sexism-1C7283842
P.S. It's kinda funny if I think about it. As popular as Twilight is, I've never heard of a videogame based on the franchise, and long running franchises like Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter are no stranger to videogame adaptations.
Books are the very start of the genres that come from them. There is no difference really except of course the meduim it works in. And the romance genre itself is not only just as large as the scifi/fantasy its more available as well. Every shopping center from Dollar General to Walmart is going to carry a book shelf with a fair number of romance books and maybe a few more popular young adult/scifi books.Rebel_Raven said:
And so you admit male sexual objectification does exist in the romance genre? The only real difference here is one has become more popular, but that is to the credit of the people working on said genre, not to say romance genre is inherently any better.
Until recently however both cartoons and video games were considered genres however with rather strict rules on what could be done for them. Cartoons were for kids and needed to be censored and give out aesops. And video games were for nerds or at best some games were considered for a more varied audience such as racing or sports games. There were made on genre assumptions and until very recently historically speaking are we seeing the branching out that other places like japan have enjoyed for decades. And this is just as the fault of the female population of the western world as it was the male. With women only now reconizing the meduim as variable for their interests. But this is not the way to do it.
Well the most important fact to remember about asian material such anime and video games is that the japanese have long considered it a meduim able to reach just about every sub-culture in japan with office wagslave manga and a varied of women oriented franchises. However this is not really tapped all that much for an english market. So any assumptions you make on who is more represented with anime and japanese video games is imbalanced by the demands on its western consumers. I only know of one blog who even covers the wealth of female reverse harem games in english.
However even men were supposed to give up said "toys" and were harassed and redicule when they did not. Men were still considered to leave said things behind and "mature" into sports loving hard working wage slaves. And men who continued to enjoy this after the cut off period were consider by societal standards to be weird and worthy of redicule. Women exp helped in this regard. They were just as quick as men to insult and belittle people who liked this stuff as any men was if not to a worse degree. The irony being that even these "mature" boys and girls were hardly mature at all. And these girls really hurt the idea of female gamers, as they were emotionally blackmailed into given up there interests even more then the boys were.
But that isn't the video game industries fault.
FPS gaming chat is highly toxic to begin with its just as bad to anyone there who doesn't enjoy it (which is most people). Its not a unique enviroment to female gamers. It doesn't matter what your gender or race is. So any consideration of it needs to be universal, and not as a solely female player based problem. Its a problem for everyone. Not a single group.
I'm sorry, but do you have any evidence that isn't so vague and anecdotal?
Not really, twilight is considered for women mainly and lets face facts women have historically speaking shown no interest in buying video games. Even considering this recent discussion an interest in women gaming there is hardly any way to tell how the majority of women would flock to a video game franchise. And most video game makers are hard at work making things they wnjoy making for a fanbase that they know will buy it.
So what you're saying is that just because the majority of a single genre of novels objectifies men, it's okay for videogames as a whole to do it to women across all genres of videogames?WarpedintheHead said:
You do know that James Bond started off as novels, and no doubt there are still novel adaptations of current movies, right? It's basically a male romance novel under an action/mystery/suspense genre thanks to the bond girls. And James Bond is a very small slice of the larger world of novels that don't include the Romance Genre.
The -real- difference is that men get glorified and idealized in other genres of novels. They get the same treatment in the majority of videogames, too.
Your whole point of it happening in a very tight grouping doesn't hold up vs videogames as a whole. It's not fair to compare a genre to an entire medium at all, and yet you persist.
It's a ludicrous notion to compare a fraction to a whole, and it doesn't defend the status quo of the gaming industry in the slightest! You're simply not going to sell me on the notion that it's fair.
I've little doubt that romance novels have also expanded to cover some LGBT themes. Moreover, like I said, James Bond, and similar novels no doubt constitute as something of a male romance genre thanks to love interests, and the fact that James Bond is an infamous womanizer. He's basically the objectified guy but in an idealized role.
Videogames are the very start of the FPS genre as books are the start to the romance genre.
Videogames may have been a "genre" of gaming back when they were considered toys, and games, but they're more a medium onto themselves lately, and have matured considerably, IMO. Just nowhere near enough to the point that they're equitable to the female audience.
Cartoons are a genre of television shows.
There's the diffirence.
So you admit there's an imbalance in videogames? <.<
At least you recognize that women were "emotionally blackmailed" to avoid videogames.
I have to wonder if the marketing of videogames might have lended to the stigma that videogames were toys at the time, though? It might still be the industry's fault even way back then. The consumers definitely bought into it.
It's not just FPS games where women face a toxic environment. I just used it as a more popular example. If there's multiplayer, and an option to pick a gender there's likely to be a diffirent treatment of male, and female avatars for better or worse.
Playstation home is very much not a FPS, and I'd say anyone that spends time in the guise of a female without broadcasting they're a guy will likely find the toxic nature female gamers face. The climate was a -lot- worse in the earlier days towards female avatars.
Even if a guy broadcasts they're a guy in a female avatar there's no doubt going to be an eventual backlash from people who don't appreciate the notion at all. I've seen it often asked why men play as women by people who don't understand, or care to understand. Some even get outright hostile over the matter.
Odds are good,IMO, that similar genres of Videogames will illustrate a similar treatment of the female avatar.
Vague and antecdotal? I trust the people that spoke out in the article over you by leagues, honestly. I trust the people that experience it first hand over the people trying to dismiss it, and likely never had to deal with it, nor have any apparent empathy over it.
I definitely trust DontnoD, and Naugty Dog, and Ken Levine over people trying to sweep the issue under the rug.
To put statements like that out there leaves one open to scandal if it weren't true.
Times are changing. Girl gamers are buying games out in the open thanks to the loss of effectiveness of emotional blackmail over it. I've personally seen a woman who's old enough to be my mother buying games in gamestop. It was pretty awesome, IMO.
The historical "fact" you state is a joke as I've spent decades gaming, and know several girls that have spent a fair chunk of their life gaming.
That "fact" that women haven't been interested in buying games might have something to do with them doing it in secret, and proxy thanks to the emotional blackmail you touched on earlier.
And while most videogame developers are working on something the audience might enjoy, you're overlooking those who's works are being denied simply on the basis that there's a female protagonist. Women, regardless of their roles get relegated to the back of the box, out of sight, and out of mind.
We won't know if women, or men will flock to games with female protagonsits until those games get produced -and- marketed similarly to male only protagonist games, and I'd hope that the game isn't niche as all get out.
But lets not overlook the fact that Femshep has become something of an icon in the gaming industry. The popularity of some female protagonists, and the popularity of topics like this have got to say something about the possibility of the consumer being open to a female protagonist.
If there are consumers who aren't open to female protagonists, well, that's on them.
Even if you do consider it some fair trade that men get objectified in Romance novels, and women get objectified in videogames as a whole, it's certainly not fair.
Thing is, though, this topic is about videogames, and the inequities women face in videogames in general. There's nothing fair about it.
The romance genre as a comparison doesn't add up to me simply because of the context. This goes deeper than women like romance, men like action, and so they sexualze each other within their perspective genres because that's what people do.
First of all it should be noted that both men and women are sexualized in romance novels, even on the covers. Go to Google, type in romance novel, and then look at the covers. You will see a few pictures of shirtless men, but you will also see a man and a woman embracing like they are seconds away from sucking each others face off(in some cases it looks like they are getting it on with their clothes still on)...and that leads to context. These are stories about love and a lot of the time sex. At what point would it be logical to assume that a story about love and sex wouldn't have sexulized imagery? That's the whole point of the story is it not?
With video games of the action adventure, sci fi/fantasy genres love and sex may be a part of the story, but it is at best a secondary plot. And so seeing sexulized images within the story of such video games while sex/romance isn't happening is jarring and unnecesary. It's one thing if the chracters are in the middle of flirting or whatever, its another when she's supposed to be in the middle of a gunfight but the camera is focused on her posterior.
First of all it should be noted that both men and women are sexualized in romance novels, even on the covers. Go to Google, type in romance novel, and then look at the covers. You will see a few pictures of shirtless men, but you will also see a man and a woman embracing like they are seconds away from sucking each others face off(in some cases it looks like they are getting it on with their clothes still on)...and that leads to context. These are stories about love and a lot of the time sex. At what point would it be logical to assume that a story about love and sex wouldn't have sexulized imagery? That's the whole point of the story is it not?
With video games of the action adventure, sci fi/fantasy genres love and sex may be a part of the story, but it is at best a secondary plot. And so seeing sexulized images within the story of such video games while sex/romance isn't happening is jarring and unnecesary. It's one thing if the chracters are in the middle of flirting or whatever, its another when she's supposed to be in the middle of a gunfight but the camera is focused on her posterior.
The focus is clearly on the man as an object however. If I could post pictures I would, the man is even naked on some covers, and often not showing his face at all. Thing is I would agree with you as the fact is just like boys and the video games these are women fantasies of what they want to be like and why they look no different then men's fantasy women? Because they is very little difference between what we want to be and what the other gender generally views as sexy.mecegirl said:
But to claim it objectifies both is to spite in the face of Jimquisition's original argument, and to claim its different when women do it.
As for the story itself and the romance....Sometimes. Other times it is a cheap reverse male harem story where the girl sleeps with an expanded male harem. Like say Anita Blake series for instance.
And yes the same thing with the "focus on her butt" also happens on romance covers, like say a man about to drown on a ship with it focused on his chest.
The most important thing to take from this is the fact that Jim's original arguement is that sexual objectification of men does happen, just in places where women are generally known to make stories. It's illogical to ignore that fact when talking about one part of our culture that typically women ignored.Rebel_Raven said:
I'm going to assume you mean as opposed to how women are treated in the same games, and the misandry implied here is not intended?
As I pointed out video games was as a whole were consider for boys and this is somerthing you knew growing up in the western world. I would just argue this had little to do with the people who enjoyed and worked at said games as much as the people who critized them till now.
I disagree, I do not see the logic in ignoring the fact that till very recently video games were considered toys.
Incorrect, animations are a medium and just like in japan can tell any story and american producers have been trying to get out of the cartoon ghetto since the very start of the meduim which things like Heavy Metal and early cartoons like DnD.
However this is a perfect example of western mentaility here. To you its a genre and therefore you have decided what is ok for it. When hard working people expand that into a meduim you suddenly complain about it despite the origins of the genre.
"Why are the majority of animation geared towards kids? Why isn't there more animation geared towards my tastes already? Clearly there is an imbalance at work here."
Its not surprising that an expanding meduim has stuff for the people who worked on long before it became popular and the people who bought them. And not surprising not much for the people who didn't.
As much as looking at one side of a coin and complaining why its always heads.
Or ignoring a room full of games and coming back later to wonder "why aren't there more games for me?"
By other women, yes.
Historical revisioning at its finest. Are you ignoring the fact these meduims were highly regulated by the public conscious and heavily monitered it took decades to get to the point where we are today. If you do not know anything about the history of video games and other genres were are talking about, how can you argue anything of real fact?
Fixed for you.
Not everywhere, I know a person who pretends to be an actually girl in mmo's because he didn't tell people he was male, and not only got preferential treatment, but free shit.
Trust wasn't the issue as much as the lack of hard facts. Take for example the desk one, well obvoiusly her co-workers knew her job, so who was thinking she was a secertary? People visting? and yes the majority of walk in desks are secretorally and I would assume any front dest is essentially a secertary. Male or female. As such its terribly hard to conclude much of value from the texts. Outside of unfair stuff happening to some people in the same field.
Kinda like watching the same woman buying hentai at a video store I imagine.
Your right, but that wasn't by the people that either made the games nor bought them. It was made by people who dismissed the meduim and the genre. If anything its to the crediut of the people who make these games that people are breaking down their preconceived
Except it has been done and generally not so much. One could argue maybe bioware games but they give you an option. Lara Croft games are a heavy hitter but I doubt you want to acknowledge that. And there are plenty of games with women protags that do well or bomb. Now i would agree with you but its not surprising that giving the origins of the genre there are predominate male driven, and that the need to make more female games is probably going to be up to that new generation coming in that wants that type of game.
Where a consumer puts their money is not an indication of sexism my friend.
Fairness has nothing to do with it. A person who makes what he or she likes is not responsible for making things for other people on the idea that it is "fair". Exp considering the "unfair" treatment they recieved in the past. A consumer doesn't have to buy something out of "fairness" exp considering their "unfair" treatment in the past. You are coming into a meduim in full bloom here, and had ignored the hard work that it took to get it there. And want someone to make games you like on an issue of "fairness"? Your demands are not fair in the first place.
You're right, there is nothing fair in your argument.
Like I said, sometimes the novels do just have scantily clad men on the covers, however they also show scantily clad women on those covers just as often. It is not as if every single cover is just scantily clad men. You can not apply Jim's argument to romance novels. Like you say, if I could post a picture I would, but what do you say to those covers with both a man and a woman on the cover? In what way are the drawings of those women swooning at the guy, with a slit up her skirt to show her legs and her dress pulled down to expose her shoulders and cleavage not sexualized? Like I mentioned before, in some of those covers the pair looks seconds away from sex, how are both the male and female protagonist not sexulized on those covers?WarpedintheHead said:
And the thing is...I never claimed that sexulization is somehow different when women do it. That isn't my point,and that is the problem. People keep trying to bring romance novels up as a defense, as if to say "hey women do this too!". They do it because they misunderstand the problem people have about women being sexulized in action based video games. Note I specify action based. There is a clear difference between these genres (action and romance) that is outright ignored when the comparison is made. If I were to make some "It's okay when women do it" type statement it would only be this. At least the Romance genre is in someway about sex. The books go from "Aww look at these two in love" to "Oh yeah these two are about to get it on." That is the main plot. That is the main story. Sometimes it is just pornographic, but at least it is in CONTEXT. This genre that has a large female fan base inserts sex and sexual imagery into stories that are ABOUT sex. "Women" (totally generalizing here)are not inserting their sexual fantasies into their power fantasies when the write/read romance novels. Meanwhile in action oriented genres aimed at men(generalizing again), no one is saying that sexual imagery doesn't have a place, but that that imagery is used in the wrong context sometimes. What is the point of having a sexualized image of a women when she is nowhere near the point of engaging in sexual activities? What purpose does a butt shot have in the middle of a gunfight?
In short it is not "okay when women do it" it is okay when it is done in the proper context. So I must again ask at what point would it be logical to assume that a story about love and sex wouldn't have sexulized imagery? Perhaps it is time to find a different genre to harp on? I'm sure there is a genre somewhere that is the gender flip of the dynamic in action/adventure games. The Romance genre is not it. The Romance genre at times is the gender flip of porn. For instance the Anita Blake series is within the Urban Fantasy genre, not romance. You should direct your criticism to that genre instead. (Though it should be noted that the Blake series did have a major shift from Urban Fantasy to Paranormal Romance as the series wore on.)
Uhm, I'm not ignoring objectification doesn't happen to men. When the hell did I say that? Nevermind when did I say I didn't care?WarpedintheHead said:
Fact is that female protagonists in videogames are being targeted for being kaboshed. Women important to the plot are being targeted for removal from game covers.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.404244-Jimquisition-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists?page=1
http://youtu.be/X6p5AZp7r_Q
http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
I don't give a damn why those examples happened, it's sexist to treat a gender diffirently for better or worse, even for makreting.
Even in romance novels both the male, and female are often on the cover. In that respect romance novels are more progressive than videogames as a whole.
Do I loathe male protagonsits? Nah. I've bought Red Dead Redemption, Batman Arkham City (And asylum is on my list of wants), I'm interested in the new Deadpool game. I respect those properties regardless of the gender of the main protagonist. I especially enjoy Kevin Conroy's roles as Batman, and Mark Hamill's work as Joker. Just gotta say I'd like to see more female protagonsits.
Simple fact is I consider those who have agency in videogames, usually the playable character(s), to be idealized over objectified.
I don't have misandry towards the videogame industry, I just hate the way they're misogynistic. There's women in the gaming industry, too.
I loathe people who defend the sexist status quo in videogames regardless of their gender.
There's no misandry here. Way to jump to conclusions.
If anything, I have misanthropy. Thanks for fueling it by accusing me of misandry, and defending the status quo of the gaming industry, by the way.
As I pointed out video games was as a whole were consider for boys and this is somerthing you knew growing up in the western world. I would just argue this had little to do with the people who enjoyed and worked at said games as much as the people who critized them till now.
Very recently as in something of a decade, or two? In the grand scheme of things, sure, but to a person that's a long time. That's borderline "back in my day!!"
I haven't decided anything about what's "okay" for cartoons. I'm well aware of heavy metal, it's sequels, hentai, anime soap operas, King of the Hill, Family Guy, simpsons, and so forth.
But when it's shown on tv, it's a genre of TV shows. When it's a movie it's a genre of movie. When a videogame is shown on any screen be it TV, or an IMAX screen, it's a videogame.
A "room full" of games? You're kidding me? Are you going to include the games from the 80s, and 90s in that? Games which are likely no longer being produced? Are you going to pull out obscure, and/or foreign games to back up your point?
Compared to the vast amount of male only protagonist games that are avaliable in the past year alone?
Are you going to mount gender select games in your examples where they give you the illusion gender matters at all to the game?
Compared to the simple fact guys don't have to look very far for a male only protagonist game?
By society. How many dads went out of their way to get a girl a videogame system for their birthday over barbies?
Adding to that, how many of those dads bought a game system for their sons while their daughters got barbies?
And you can't lay the blame on them entirely! Marketing was largely towards boys!
You think guys are universally okay with girl gamers? That'd be a hysterical notion since some aren't even okay with them today.
Same way you're defending the gaming industry's status quo.
Who says I'm ignoring anything? Did I not say that society had a hand in it? But look at commercials!
http://youtu.be/evI5pF5h8Ck
Granted it got changed, but that was due to the outrage it sparked!
I can argue because you're underestimating me apparently.
I gotta wonder how often males get harassed for their gender. Women get harassed over their gender. That's sexism. Sexism is when people treat a gender worse than another.Fixed for you.
I guess it's worth the sexist treatment, and harassment he gets. If he doesn't get any of it, he's a lucky one.Not everywhere, I know a person who pretends to be an actually girl in mmo's because he didn't tell people he was male, and not only got preferential treatment, but free shit.
Uhm, the woman who complained about being seen as a receptionist stated that the guy she traded desks with wasn't mistaken as a receptionist. It's pretty easy to conclude. Wonderful how you selectively read the post.
I'm not interested in paying attention to watching people buy hentai. But the woman did ask me my opinion on some Spyro games.
Preconceived what?
As I stated before, games with gender select, while nice, give the illusion gender matters, by and large.
A lot of the voice work is the same for male, and female shepards. While that's some form of equality, it's hard pressed to say it was told from either gender's point of view, and that gender mattered that much to the game by and large.
I'll give them props for the romance bits being so vast, and small wonder Fem-shep is an icon of gaming over her male counterpart, isn't she? Jennifer Hale's practically famous because of her role as female shepard, no?
A lot of female protagonsits get a cult following.
Oh, wow, Lara Croft? Who's been out of action for over a decade until 2013, and some guys have called her something akin to the male Nathan Drake while they're missing out on the fact that she pre-dates him?
Got another example? 3 examples? maybe 4?
I've played the new tomb raider, and loved every second of it short of the frustrating moments of combat. Near cried at the ending. I want more.
ONE example doesn't break the case on my end any mroe than it does for you.
Lets be clear. You're defending the status quo of the gaming industry. We aren't even remotely friends. I'm hesitant to consider you an aquaintance.
You're free to have your opinions, but that doesn't mean I have to like you because of them.
A person makes what he, or she likes, but that sure doesn't mean it gets produced. When things aren't produced based on the gender of the main character, that's sexist.
Oiy vey, if you're not willing to budge in your argument, then there's simply no point in talking to you. I'm not going to budge either.
First off that is exactly what this thread is about. Second I asked you for your opinion on it in my first post to you. This thread is about male and I would suggest female objectification as well given the parallels and differences of between sexual objectification and empowerment when we look at it.Rebel_Raven said:
I can not comment on something I have not studied in depth nor inside the boundries of this conversation.
Actually the progressive movement in the romance genre would be to allow more men in there, but much like video games of a decade ago are still considered for women and are made for women ideas. Not that some urban fantasy and others don't exist that bridge the gender gap. But its pretty much stuck where the video game industry was three decades ago.
I don't see how proggressive a romance genre is solely because from its inception it cattered to women's needs because that is what it was made to do. By that logic video games are progressive as they need to be for having men on the cover. Thats not making much sense.
Seems a quick way to stop conversation if you are going to assume not agreeing with you on something is tandemount to defending sexism.
You ok? I was very clear that I wasn't and was giving you the benefit of a doubt.
Be honest know you admitted by your defense that it did sound like you hated male protagonists and I even gave you the benefit of the doubt without jumping to conclusions. So you want to try to insinuate something sinister as a retaliation for your mistake?
But lets be honest here, we don't agree on this matter and I've stated my reasons why, if you can not argue your points rationally and see me as morally wrong and have no reason to debate than to throw opinions at each other till one of us gives up. Maybe I should go?
maybe at best the last five years. And why you said that? It took 50 years for things to get where they are now. And you only showed interest in the last five years. It took decades of companies, technology, and drive to get where we are at. Do you have any information at all to think that your claim is any more accurate than mine? If I am talking like an old time, then you are talking like a newborn who expects a toy no one has ever made before and expected it yesterday.
I have never heard of anyone thinking sexism is worse than racism before or homophobia. But you see it in those same FPS games.You avoided the point here and I'm not even sure what this is supposed to be about. You avoided issue entirely. Please respond.
It was a figure of speach raven. Fact is those new games are based on the success of the old ones. This whole new opening is based on the success those creators and consumers did by themselves. Its unfair to ignore the past to complain about the present people like you and me helped create.
And if a boy came to school with a scifi book he was bullied, his book may of been stolen, and the girls outed him as a freak not worth a date and teased him just as bad. And there insults to the girls who liked this stuff was worse. Maybe it was society focus that started it. But every kid in school was its enforcer, and that was more of the fact that kids like to bully. Not that things are better in colleges or the work place right at this moment.
Please restrain yourself to comments I have actually said and not manufactured please. So you believe in the sterotype of the nerd misanthrobe then hmmm? You think that's acturate? What are you basing this on? Trolls?
So you're the only one who can argue examples from two decades ago? You think my argument is close to "back in my day" but a commercial from the 90s is an example of modern day sexism?
I gotta wonder how often males get harassed for their gender. Women get harassed over their gender. That's sexism. Sexism is when people treat a gender worse than another.Fixed for you.
I would say that mmos are often quite different forms of harassment then insults like in FPS. And no one I know including myself have ever been insulted in a wide selection in mmos for female avatars or being mistake for a women. Free shit and help yes, but not insults. Then again, we are nice people by nature, and don't often get negative treatment.
Usually its either noobs jokes or griefing on mmos.
By who? And you realize that is pretty random. It does happen that they see male people there. When was this? How long ago? I mean we assume this was a recent event right? And was this vistors or co-workers?
Neither I'm I. I just made a statement. Sexuality is not a sin.
Not to burst your bubble, but this thread is about how male, and female objectification exist, but are different. And it focuses on videogames which is why I focus on videogames. Did you watch the video linked to at the beginning by Jim Sterling himself?WarpedintheHead said:
He says that men often try to defend themselves by saying they get objectified themselves in videogames, and that women shouldn't complain.
Frankly your question about roamnce novels was a bit of a jarring subject change.
I suggest watching the video linked to on the first post of this threa, and the creepy cull of female protagonits video that is related to the video to get some understanding of where I'm coming from. The vids aren't perfect, but they are enlightening.
But, really? You didn't research the anti-female mentality in gaming companies, and you're here debating it with me on the subject, and defending the industry? That explains things.
So you actually researched romance novel statistics, have some cites, and know for a fact that they're limiting the male population, and actively against male PoV romance novels?
Sure the romance novels cater to the woman's wants by and large. That doesn't mean it's all there is, and like I said, it's a genre of novels, not all of the novels.
And that novels aren't for me. I prefer having the agency, and control of a videogame.
I'm not denying the work the gaming industry has done, and I'm not forgetting whre it came from, but I'm expecting it to mature, and I'm expecting the anti-female protagonist mentality to eventually go away.
Are you seriously going the route of "make your own game?" How would you suggest I "help the future" here?
I'm not ignoring the past. It's ingrained on my brain. I've gamed all my life. Every spark of joy that I got to play as a girl from Ultima Exodus to the Tomb raider Reboot, and the games I enjoyed regardless of protagonist gender.
Every time I saw that the female protagonist was kicked to the curb.
But what does it matter in an industry thast has the power to change, but doesn't want to?
Bluntly, I sidestepped because I realized that you weren't going to change your mind, and debating with someone who isn't going to change their mind is an act of futility. And I don't know why I'm still debating with you. Infact, I don't know why you're still debating with me.
And you -are- defending sexism! I'm not at all sure you know it since you didn't research.
But then again, I said it wasn't fair that sexism existed in Romance novels, or in videogames earlier, and you said my argument wasn't fair.
The inequalities faced are rooted in sexism, and here you are defending the gaming industry. You're excusing the game industry at every turn, and tried to pawn off the problem as being equal to men in romance novels.
Thing is I doubt that men are being excluded as being the protagonsits of romance novels.
It wasn't very clear. You implied that I had a case of misnadry by questioning if I spoke with misandry, or not as far as I see it. If I misunderstood, then I did.
I'm not mad.
I guess maybe it did, but jumping to the conclusion and including a word like misandry?
It's not my mistake. I'm pretty bothered by the sexist mentality in the gaming industry, and a lot more of it seems aimed at women so that's what I talk about. Doesn't mean I'm ignoring, or not recognizing the male's problems in games, but it's certainly not a fair trade.
Define your definition of "rational" here. I've been pretty level headed, and explained my points.
I'm not exactly seeing you as rational either since you're actively defending something I've researched enough to dislike with good reason (and that list of reasons seems to be getting longer and longer) by trying to trivialize it by comparing it to a lone genre like it's a fair trade.
I don't see you as morally wrong. I see you as ill informed, which you've admitted to, in not researching. I've done my best to offer some insight. Make of it what you will.
If I can't get through to you, though, then yeah, I'd suggest we drop this whole thing. I've tried to let on that we should end the debate.
Videogames have long been a medium unto themselves to me. Ever since people started making diffirent genres in it. First person, mystery, suspense, action. Like I said, no matter what you play videogames on, they're videogames.
Lets get something straight. The roots of the medium aren't so important to me that it excuses everything. Especially a medium that wants to be considered mature, and evolve as a medium. Viedeogame developers often state they want the medium to evolve, and mature in the videogame magazines I read. Yet... *points at my links* That happens.
You said I missed your point on animation? Elaborate if you feel like putting up with the debate.
You accused me of being a typical westerner, and putting something in a nice, neat package that defined what it is, and what borders it has as far as I gathered.
Sorry about misunderstanding your figure of speech. I've had people litterally link me to a page that had games going back to the 80s like I'm supposed to be glad I got that much. That you actually thought I had a ton of modern console games to pick from that had a female protagonist, nevermind a female only protagonist. I figured you were on the same route.
If you want me to name, and shame, though, I'm not going to do that.
I understand that boys had social pressure about their interests, and they still do. Women do, too. Lets get past that, okay? Guys and girls are both victims of society. Is it the same? No. is it worth talking about? Not with me since I agree.
I feel like you're completely disregarding that guys weren't, and aren't the only ones getting hasseled by both genders here while I'm pretty certain both genders were hassled by both genders.
You're the one that let on it's only women that hate girl gamers which simply isn't true. The disdain is across both genders form both genders.
"nerd misanthrobe"? Bit strongly worded there.
Do I belive in people that want to disregard the female presense in videogames, though, and are actively against it? Yes. *points at my links* and the people that argue that there's no problem, and those people who argue that there shouldn't be more female protagonsits. It's difficult to weed out the uninformed from them, though.
Lets see, male Shepard being, until near the end of the mass effect trilogy being the only advertised shepard. I've never seen a female Dovahkin despite gender select being in the game.
I've barely seen a Tomb raider commercial on TV. It was so rare I'm wondering if it wasn't on the internet instead.
Remember Me doesn't get any advertisement on Tv, or magazines, or youtube, really. You have to actually look for it's existance.
*points at my links*
There's your modern examples. If you're going to admit you hadn't done research, I suggest doing some before proceeding.
and I'm not one of them! They're ALL BAD! But women are easier to single out since you rarely see the face of the player, and even that's easier than knowing their sexual preferrences. You can yell slurs blindly, or you can hear the voice of the woman, or see they're a woman avatar, and attack them based on that. Which is more directed?
It's not that different. Harassment because you're a female is harassment because you're a female.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28269391/ns/technology_and_science-games/t/will-you-feel-home-playstation-home/
for instance.
I've personally endured the stuff she's talking about in playstation home.
She explains who. Are you selectively reading it?
Seems like it'd be twitter recent. That'd be 2006. But hey, if you wanna brush off and say what she went through was nothing, be my guest. I won't like you for it, though.
I never said it was. I admire it, but I don't go broadcasting my tastes in it, and I don't want to know what others think is sexual.
I wanted to be sure as opposed to jumping to conclusions.
With that said, *points the commercial from ten years ago, and my modern examples that they're obviously marketing more towards boys on purpose through the ages of gaming.*
You're the one that brought up Bioware, and Tomb Raider.
It has to do with the fact that female protagonists that are well written can do well, but I'm waiting on some modern examples, plural, to happen. Preferrably from multiple companies. It'd really help me believe that the game industry has gotten over the hurdle of not wanting female protagonists.
I'm not dismissing Tomb raider, but like I said, one, or two examples vs dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of other examples against it doesn't mean the problem is fixed. Only when the example becomes common does it even remotely indicate the problem is fixed.
And no I'm not discounting Tomb raider because people likened the game to Uncharted, I'm irritated that there's guys out there that'd call her that while ignorant of the fact she predates him with that type of action genre.
It's not my fault you didn't research. You're the one pressing on about the roots of the game, which is the past. Further stating it was society that was the one that deemed games were for boys, and I showed you marketing from 10 years ago that reinforced that it was the game producers that reinforced it, too.
Missing the point or not, "friend" is not a word I'd use to describe anything between us.
I don't care where the consumer puts their cash. Problem is when the consumer doesn't have a CHOICE in what they put their cash on. And game producers are trying to limit that choice. *points at the links I posted.*
If I wanted to play games that looked promising, for the longest time it was either "be a dude or don't play." I'm quite tired of it.
No, you're not sexist because you don't want to play as a gender of character. Not any more than I am for my preferrence of female protagonists.
And, you're right. People want to make the game with the female protagonist. They don't do it because they're being made to. Problem is people aren't -producing- them.
Making the game is the developer's job. Getting the game out there, and marketing it is the producer's job. And far too often the producer is saying "I'm not going to produce a game with a female protagonist."
I'm "sidestepping" it because it's becoming apparent you don't want to change your mind, nevermind know what it is you're talking about as far as the gaming industry goes as you didn't research, even between posts. Moreover, you were playing at balancing the dearth of female protagonists with romance novels which I don't agree with, and never will.
I dare say you're disregarding the matter entirely, or trying to trivialize it.
You just argued that women are idealised and that's a bad thing.DVS BSTrD said:
So gaming idealism is still bad.
On topic:
...
This topic is complicated. ;_;
Is the idealised man attractive to females (are gyms full over New Years?)? If so then men in games are still objectified. Is it okay that when men are in the main role they usually hit/shoot things (The Witcher), while when women are in the main role they approach objectives intelligently (Mirrors Edge)? Both examples I cited are generally seen as wonderful examples of their genre, but the female lead is much smarter and doesn't just hit things. You can of course, you can always just hit things, but that's not the main drive.
So men are dumb brawn while women are weak and intelligent. That's very stereotypical, and hilariously objectified. Men get ripped, women are ladylike. We could have female dumb brawn as our main role, then someone like Sarkeesian would argue that they're not female roles. They're females in male roles making it sexist.
Mind that the he raison d'etre for this post is not to say that it's complicated but to say that the chance that it's all a fantastical delusion by our bored minds seems to be increasing every time I return to this topic. Our opinions are all subjective and thus inherently flawed and the debate is unlikely to ever be solved in a mutually acceptable fashion. The idealist in me wishes to append "any time soon" to the end of that but the realist doesn't believe it. While the cynic thinks it will be solved by appointing a ratio of females in main roles which will still be sexist as it's just making a blanket role and throwing a female in it so they're there, like scholarships for people of a sole colour/gender/religion/height/whatever.
tl;dr
Troll bait, bad Sterling. Cherry pick examples more. (The argument that women aren't in the main role as often is fine outside of RPG's/MMO's/MOBA's/YouKnowTheRestYeah?, the argument that women are only and always objectified ignores the wonderfully large amount of counter arguments)
I don't understand why objectification is even an issue in video games. As long as guys buy products because of boobs, and women buy products because of muscled men, products will be marketed in a way to take advantage of this. Everyone needs to just relax and stop getting uptight about everything. Why can't everyone just play the games they like, and not play the games that bother them? I don't like extreme gore, and don't play extremely gory games. What I don't do, is whine about it to others and think gore should be removed from games. Let people have what they want and chill the hell out.
Honestly, I don't think women buy games because of muscles. Infact I don't know if a lot of muscles are aimed at women in media, period.SPELLEGRINO said:
I.E. Who's buying Old Spice bodywash with Mustafa, or Terry Crews advertising them? Largely Men, I assume.
Do you really think that videogames muscles are aimed at women? I sincerely doubt it. I'm no stranger to liking the sight of muscled men, but frankly it seems like most male protgonists are aimed at men than at women due to a coolness factor over sexiness factor. They're generally better written, and have better agency, too.
Do you really think female playable characters are really aimed at women? I don't think so. They're generally tarted up so they're aimed more at men than women, if women are the target at all.
I'm not against sexualized characters, but I recognize that they're sexualized more for male benefit than female benefit. What does bother me, though, is the imbalance of sexualized/objectified women over sexualized/idealized women. It's simply not a fair trade, IMO.
And, frankly, I don't care much at all about the marketing end of things. If the gaming industry's marketing was that great, then why all the news of layoffs, bankruptcies, etc.?
Generally, the excuses for women's sexualization/objectification, and the very rare sexualization/idealization don't phase me anymore. I don't really care. They don't change anything.
Ah, the classic question,
Here's my answer.
Because, especially on consoles, the games I like (games with female protagonists) are too far, and few in between, and the gaming industry wants to keep it that way, it seems. Moreover, the agency of female protagonists are being suppressed.
And as I said before, it's simply not a fair trade how many women are sexualized, and objectified NPCs vs being playable. And that's not even comparing it to the long list of idealized male NPCs, and male playable characters.
I can see why people are up in arms over the matter. They're tired of being catered to in the cheapest way possible, via Sex, relentlessly, among other things.
They're tired of the lack of variety.
Considering that I do vote with my wallet, partly out of necessity as I'm not made out of money, there's been gaming years I've simply not bought a new game because there's been years where women just weren't in the spotlight.
Even in one of the best years for female protagonists in a long time, being this year, game choices are pretty slim concerning female playable characters. Frankly the variety isn't that huge among the games they're in, either.
For the most part if you -do- want to play as a nonsexualized female chatacter, you're out of luck.
Yeah, you can dredge up a lot of old games, but that's part of the problem when you can't get many modern releases. What if people already have those games?
While there are exceptions to what I'm about to say, I generally don't like playing as male protagonists. What, exactly, do they bring to the table these days? They aren't that interesting to me. Few games salvage the protagonist for me. Been there, done that, I wanna move on.
I've little interest in buying a game that doesn't feel inclusive to me on that, note, too. They don't want to include some nice female representatrion? Why should I include them in my gaming library?
The sausage-fest doesn't interest me anymore as I've spent decades putting up with it with few characters standing out from the masses.
Not to accuse anyone of anything here, but honestly, it's real damn easy to ask that question that I specefically quoted when it's coming from a guy who's been catered to all his gaming career, and is oblivious to how rarely others are being catered to.
It's really easy to avoid games with gore in it, and have a rich, full gaming lifestyle. It's really hard to avoid sexualiztion in games and have a rich, full gaming lifestyle.
Until some sort of equalibrium happens with female representation in terms of sexualization, and playability, people just aren't going to chill out.