Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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You make very good points. However, I'm confused as to whether you think that it's just rape as an objective in games that is beyond justification (to which I would agree), or that no depictions of rape at all, by anyone, towards anyone, should ever appear in games (to which I would disagree).
He was talking about treating women differently for dressing that way, which is a dangerous attitude to influence. It's why I said it was "indirect." He wasn't specifically talking about rape, but the argument rings so true to some justifications for rape that it's a fairly troublesome attitude to espouse.wizzy555 said:
Of course, your mileage may vary and I'm certainly not saying "BAN THIS SICK CHAPELL FILTH" or anything.
I like to build to a crescendo. I'm the opposite of Nintendo's E3 press conferences in that way.lord.jeff said:
At the start of the video when you suggested there might be a shit storm, I got worried about what your opinion would be, but thankfully it was the view of a normal, well balanced, non-rapist. So yeh, the only people who should disagree with you are those seeking attention.
Keep up the good work mate, Long time fan.
Captcha: Fish On, You know me too well, captcha.
Keep up the good work mate, Long time fan.
Captcha: Fish On, You know me too well, captcha.
Hrm, tough subject. Not just for video games, but other medias like music, books, and films touch this issue carefully.
I think Jim is right with his analysis between rape and murder: The latter is something finite and, while it does end a life, that life no longer goes through any suffering. Plus there is the context for the latter (murder) to consider as there are times in our society where it is justified: Capital punishment, times of war, or self-defense cases are examples where murder is necessary.
For the former, its almost like torture, something that is also rare in video games and other entertainment media. In fact, I think this is a form of violence that is similar to rape but we don't get to see so much, or actually do, in video games. I'm talking about a game where we have to actually apply rusty, surgical equipment to a person bound to a chair (their gender is pointless), and we score points by inflicting great deal of pain to the person through various instruments to make them talk or raise our "excitement/combo" meter. Its like using the mechanics of "Guitar Hero" or any rhythm based game, but instead of seeing flashy colors, we're seeing how we horribly mutilate a person.
I think this is why things like torture and rape are more common actions performed by a villain in a media, to establish that they are a villain. It works fine in the typical Hero's Journey structure Western media has since it could serve as a reason why the villain has to go down. Unlike murder, its hard to come up a reason why a "hero" in any kind of media would be justified in raping/torturing anyone.
However, I think video games are in a tough scenario about this since most want to give the option of being 'evil' in their games. The "Fable" series are a good example of this where they state you could be a bad guy--but you can never be as evil as torturing or raping a victim in these games. Games like "Bioshock" could also try easing that disturbing feeling of being a villain in these games by making the little sisters you violently murder a "fade to black" scene, after seeing her attacking and acting like an animal when you grab her and made your choice. Its like the game saying, "Okay your the bad guy but we'll try not to make you feel so bad for being evil. We'll just cover up the part where you violently end the life of an innocent while making them look less human."
I think Jim is right with his analysis between rape and murder: The latter is something finite and, while it does end a life, that life no longer goes through any suffering. Plus there is the context for the latter (murder) to consider as there are times in our society where it is justified: Capital punishment, times of war, or self-defense cases are examples where murder is necessary.
For the former, its almost like torture, something that is also rare in video games and other entertainment media. In fact, I think this is a form of violence that is similar to rape but we don't get to see so much, or actually do, in video games. I'm talking about a game where we have to actually apply rusty, surgical equipment to a person bound to a chair (their gender is pointless), and we score points by inflicting great deal of pain to the person through various instruments to make them talk or raise our "excitement/combo" meter. Its like using the mechanics of "Guitar Hero" or any rhythm based game, but instead of seeing flashy colors, we're seeing how we horribly mutilate a person.
I think this is why things like torture and rape are more common actions performed by a villain in a media, to establish that they are a villain. It works fine in the typical Hero's Journey structure Western media has since it could serve as a reason why the villain has to go down. Unlike murder, its hard to come up a reason why a "hero" in any kind of media would be justified in raping/torturing anyone.
However, I think video games are in a tough scenario about this since most want to give the option of being 'evil' in their games. The "Fable" series are a good example of this where they state you could be a bad guy--but you can never be as evil as torturing or raping a victim in these games. Games like "Bioshock" could also try easing that disturbing feeling of being a villain in these games by making the little sisters you violently murder a "fade to black" scene, after seeing her attacking and acting like an animal when you grab her and made your choice. Its like the game saying, "Okay your the bad guy but we'll try not to make you feel so bad for being evil. We'll just cover up the part where you violently end the life of an innocent while making them look less human."
Denitsts, really, except maybe for a really bad dentist, it's not traumatic. Also if you actually at least take care of your teeth a little it shouldn't be painful, except again if it's a bad dentist. And although it's not my favorite thing to do I don't hate it, so not everyone hates it, the way you put it, you could argue that anything that isn't done for enjoyment, or cause joy, should be hated, say washing the dishes, if you don't enjoy it for some reason, is a chore, but i doubt most people would say they hated it, except maybe as a casual exaggeration.
Also the circumstances of rape and killing are rather different, killing is an act that can happen under many different circumstances, from accidental manslaughter to assassination and genocide, while rape has a rather narrow set of circumstances in comparison, yes the story around it may vary, but the broad central dynamic remains, there is one or more victims and one or more aggressors, like there is no such thing as accidental rape, it might happen when the aggressor isn't in their right mind, but it's still a conscious, more or less, decision. For example, in a fight, not to the death, one fighter may kill the other due to an unlucky blow or lack of experience whilst using some potentially lethal move. But the act of rape, if uninterrupted, lasts usually until the aggressor is satisfied, which is longer the few seconds that it required that fighter to accidentally kill his opponent.
Also the circumstances of rape and killing are rather different, killing is an act that can happen under many different circumstances, from accidental manslaughter to assassination and genocide, while rape has a rather narrow set of circumstances in comparison, yes the story around it may vary, but the broad central dynamic remains, there is one or more victims and one or more aggressors, like there is no such thing as accidental rape, it might happen when the aggressor isn't in their right mind, but it's still a conscious, more or less, decision. For example, in a fight, not to the death, one fighter may kill the other due to an unlucky blow or lack of experience whilst using some potentially lethal move. But the act of rape, if uninterrupted, lasts usually until the aggressor is satisfied, which is longer the few seconds that it required that fighter to accidentally kill his opponent.
Although I agree with most of what you said Jim, I wouldn't say Rape is more primal, or however it was you put it, then murder as both have been happening since the damn of time. Animals kill each other and very will often try to mate with another that doesn't want to. Be it for dominence reasons or simply because their in heat, animals just don't tend to have the same thaught plain as us so handle it better... or something, I don't know. Either way Humans DON'T HAVE TO think like animals and should know better, there really is no excuse for rape.
Rape jokes on the other hand, I put in the same catagory as cancer or orphan jokes. I may laugh but I always feel bad 3 seconds later.
Rape jokes on the other hand, I put in the same catagory as cancer or orphan jokes. I may laugh but I always feel bad 3 seconds later.
The amount of balls it takes to say this stuff makes me understand why he stays hunched behind a large podium.
Ah, thanks for commenting on that phrase, i was a little bit confused. In my country penetration is also needed for a deed to be considered rape, however it is not important if the penetrator is the victim or the rapist. So women are, by that definition, able to rape.Kuth said:
I loved it. Good for you Jim. Excellent piece.
I do disagree with some of what you said. I think the problem isn't that rape isn't wrong, it's just the grey areas that occur in many of the scenarios. There are circumstances where there is a question of what occurred being classified as rape or not.
The problem we have with killing is what the justification is for killing. The problem we have with rape is not justification, because there isn't any. The problem is whether what occurred can actually be classified as rape. Since we cannot justify the action, we aren't able to attach a redeeming quality to the action. We don't have this problem with killing as we see killing in combat, self defense and such as justified.
In fact, I think we have the same objections in both cases. We object to being the villain and victimizing the innocent and defenseless. People even had issues when
I would argue that this is more akin to the rape situation than most of the killing that goes on in the video game industry. This is also why it caused such a fuss. People were uncomfortable with that, and the victims were impersonal. Rape would be much more intimate and personal.
I do disagree with some of what you said. I think the problem isn't that rape isn't wrong, it's just the grey areas that occur in many of the scenarios. There are circumstances where there is a question of what occurred being classified as rape or not.
The problem we have with killing is what the justification is for killing. The problem we have with rape is not justification, because there isn't any. The problem is whether what occurred can actually be classified as rape. Since we cannot justify the action, we aren't able to attach a redeeming quality to the action. We don't have this problem with killing as we see killing in combat, self defense and such as justified.
In fact, I think we have the same objections in both cases. We object to being the villain and victimizing the innocent and defenseless. People even had issues when
in Modern Warfare 2 you were undercover as a terrorist and had to gun down the civilians inside the airport.
One thing that you sort of touched on, but sort of missed is how most games never force you to murder someone. In assassin games like Hitman and AC they always make the villians evil enough for justification. And while games like GTA and Fallout allow for outright murder of innocents, it is never really forced, except police officers which would fight you in GTA, but even then in 4 they wouldn't even really die unless you get a head shot. But you brought up a lot of war games which isn't really murder. Even MW2 didn't force you to shoot those civilians. You didn't show like Condemned where it is actual murder. At least, I think that all murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. If you shoot a guy shooting at you, you didn't really murder him. If you don't kill you die. But yeah, either way, I have to agree rape is worse than death.
Also fun fact: You can be raped in Fallout 2 on at least 2 occasions(one occasion is only for women characters)
GOOD VIDEO JIM! THANK GOD FOR YOU!
Also fun fact: You can be raped in Fallout 2 on at least 2 occasions(one occasion is only for women characters)
GOOD VIDEO JIM! THANK GOD FOR YOU!
I'd also like to point out, that while the discussion of rape and murder are discussed, the subject of Torture isn't brought up either, and is something that may give validity to the argument.
You see in many videogames the character can brutally eviscerate their enemies. Look at Kratos from God of War, how often he doesn't just simply and quickly kill enimies, he takes the time to slowly, and painfully murder them. Ripping off their heads from their sholders, cutting into their brains or yanking off limbs. Much like Rape, Torture takes pre meditation and conviction to accomplish, where as killing can be a reflect or a drive to survive.
I can point out several games that the main focus isn't to simply kill a bunch of bad dudes, but make them suffer as well. Mortal Kombat for one, or any fighter that has a fatality system. Manhunt, Grand Theft Auto, and even Saints Row.
Torture can happen to both good, bad, and innocent people, but it still is usually one sided, with a victim. On the grand scale of things, rape still rates higher as a cardinal sin then torture. I've played games where I've murdered characters brutally, many of us have, but it may be the only true argument against rape in videogaming culture, when an argument like this comes up.
You see in many videogames the character can brutally eviscerate their enemies. Look at Kratos from God of War, how often he doesn't just simply and quickly kill enimies, he takes the time to slowly, and painfully murder them. Ripping off their heads from their sholders, cutting into their brains or yanking off limbs. Much like Rape, Torture takes pre meditation and conviction to accomplish, where as killing can be a reflect or a drive to survive.
I can point out several games that the main focus isn't to simply kill a bunch of bad dudes, but make them suffer as well. Mortal Kombat for one, or any fighter that has a fatality system. Manhunt, Grand Theft Auto, and even Saints Row.
Torture can happen to both good, bad, and innocent people, but it still is usually one sided, with a victim. On the grand scale of things, rape still rates higher as a cardinal sin then torture. I've played games where I've murdered characters brutally, many of us have, but it may be the only true argument against rape in videogaming culture, when an argument like this comes up.
You're equating being raped to a trip to the dentist? Really? If you were sodomized against your will and I compared it to being splashed with water by a car driving through a puddle, would that be a fair comparison, or would I be an asshole belittling your pain?5ilver said:
When rape is used to some kind of narrative or dramatic effect, and handled with some maturity and understanding, I have no problem with it. When it's used solely to make something "gritty", or as a sick method of titilation, or constantly being used to motivate a female protagonist because for some reason so many male writers can't think of a motive for female characters other than sexual trauma, then you're better off not using it at all. Leave it for better writers.
Ghost stories notwithstanding, beyond death is also beyond caring. Yeah, the dead might have wounds to heal and wrongs to set back right, but it doesn't matter to them anymore. Whereas the rape victim has to live with it for the rest of her days.5ilver said:
Hmm, come to think of it, Jim covered most of this in his video. Did you even bother to watch it?
The reason they don't do that is because if murder and rape get you the same jail time, a rapist might just kill his victims when they're done, since they'd have little more to lose. That's the rationale anyway. Of course, the answer is to make the sentence for rape+murder worse than either one individually, but that's hard to pull off with the death penalty off the table.Rabidkitten said:
Anyway, good video Jim, keep up the good work. Thank God for you and all that.
I'm pro rape-in-fiction but damn, you made a great argument, thoug I admit that a game about raping is not a game, it's porn.
You didn't mention that a rape victims have a small chance of geting over it and rebuilding their lives.
If a rape victim plays a japanese game named tentacle bento then they bring to themselves reliving the event.
Also, sex drive is a strong natural irational force so you could argue that killing is done more by willing decision and thus a murderer more accountable for his actions, kind of when in a trial the defendant pleads mental disstress.
You didn't mention that a rape victims have a small chance of geting over it and rebuilding their lives.
If a rape victim plays a japanese game named tentacle bento then they bring to themselves reliving the event.
Also, sex drive is a strong natural irational force so you could argue that killing is done more by willing decision and thus a murderer more accountable for his actions, kind of when in a trial the defendant pleads mental disstress.
I think while these reasons are logical, I think it's not necessarily healthy for our society to put rape on a negative pedestral as some super-special unearthly level of unspeakable horror.
It just makes it harder for victims to come to terms with it. For thousands of years, rape was considered a crime for damaging the father's husband's "property", and it was hard on victims because of that. Now we are starting to put this BS behind us, but maybe it is not much better to tell rape victims that if their own right to their body being violated, that is a huge tragedy, and worse than death, and that it will be a traumatic experience.
Though entirely *trivializing* rape would also be a bad idea, because then just more of it would happen, and I doubt that a culture where no one is troubled AT ALL by getting raped is possible. But at least making it less of a taboo and just treating it as a shitty thing that sometimes happens, would surely help. Maybe a move towards rape fetishists being able to openly enjoy such games, would be a right step towards it.
It just makes it harder for victims to come to terms with it. For thousands of years, rape was considered a crime for damaging the father's husband's "property", and it was hard on victims because of that. Now we are starting to put this BS behind us, but maybe it is not much better to tell rape victims that if their own right to their body being violated, that is a huge tragedy, and worse than death, and that it will be a traumatic experience.
Though entirely *trivializing* rape would also be a bad idea, because then just more of it would happen, and I doubt that a culture where no one is troubled AT ALL by getting raped is possible. But at least making it less of a taboo and just treating it as a shitty thing that sometimes happens, would surely help. Maybe a move towards rape fetishists being able to openly enjoy such games, would be a right step towards it.
Jim reads Black Company...?
My already high appreciation for your videos and work has just been augmented by that..
*brofist* More people need to read those books! So good!... >__> *ahem*..
Very good video Jim! On a very tough topic.. pretty well balanced and thought out ramble..
