Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[Torrasque]

I was going to bring up the point "Killing can involve suffering, but when someone is killed, they are dead, no more pain or suffering. Rape is pure unending suffering, and suffering is bad, so that is why rape is so bad", but you brought it up almost immediately when I thought of it, so thanks lol.

Now I am going to sit back and see if this turns into a flame war.

Edit: I think you handled this issue very well and covered all your bases. This being the internet, someone is going to be offended by what you said, but that is nothing new. Great video, thank god for Jim.

 

[Henson]

Murder is part of the human condition, rape is not.

I'm not sure I agree. It would be nice to write off rape as an act that only a small handful of imbalanced people would actually commit, but given rape's wide prevalence, even in today's 'civilized' world, it may be that there is something in the human (male?) psyche that has tendencies for rape. An ugly, disheartening part, to be sure.

Hamlet debates murdering his uncle, not raping him.

????

 

[Falseprophet]

Great video, but one thing I disagree with is the idea that we should be telling rapists not to rape rather than victims not to be victims. I don't mean it's the victim's fault, I just think that rapists can't be convinced otherwise by being told not to, whereas victims may be able to take measures against being raped.

Except that it works [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article2310422/]. Because a lot of rapists don't realize they're rapists.

 

[AlexanderPeregrine]

One of the most insidious things about rape is its use in film. A lot of filmmakers have talked about their financiers asking them to put in explicit rape scenes specifically for the titillation of the male audience. There's a whole genre of films [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_and_revenge_film] such as I Spit on Your Grave that revolve around a really lurid, prolonged rape sequence that tacks on an obligatory revenge sequence only to be able to claim "they didn't get away with it" as some kind of "justification". Even stepping outside of rape, there are so many films which use the device of "male boss asking a potential female employee to show him her breasts" and if she does, it's shown on camera (which implies the audience wants what the boss wants). It really muddies the whole issue when one considers how sexual abuse is being exploited for audience gratification.

 

[vxicepickxv]

There's a rather disturbing chapter in the webcomic Dominic Deegan about an orc price, who in order to protect a woman that he used his royal rights to protect a recently orphaned woman from death was forced to follow a different tribe's policy that a marriage was required to be consummated immediately after the ceremony. By invoking his right to marriage, he was required to rape her.

It's a rather tragic story, and he basically did it only as an experiment to see what the reaction to the character would be. Most of the feedback was unsurprisingly saying it was terrible thing to do. The only positive feedback he got was from a small handful of women, who were rape victims.

 

[Cecilthedarkknight_234]

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Again, Dentistry can be justified. You dont NEED to go to a dentist.

Rape is not. There is no justification for Rape, period.

it's called the cycle of abuse not that it justifies rape but if child is raped over x amount years by a predator then turns around and does the same because he or she never got help for the abuse then it goes in cycle that needs to addressed. No there is never a just cause for rape however given a person's weak state of mind and enduring amount of abuse he or she might of took it's understandable why the person would repeat the cycle, to make some-one hurt or feel bad as they do.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

It's quite simple to me. We've all had a desire to hurt someone at some point, maybe not kill, but hurt is immensely common. Now, very few people have a desire to rape people, fortunately.

That's my primary concern, who is playing these games and most importantly why are they playing them.

Another thing is the interactivity of it. In a book, rape can demonstrate how evil a character is but the reader is separated from that action, even if it's described in detail. If a game actually has the player rape people in the game there isn't that wall of separation between character desires and player desires and that's just creepy.

 

[Marohen]

I rather enjoyed Jim's opinion on this matter; this is a rather sensitive topic so it's rare to see any manner of discussion brought up from it.

My only real issue here is that while he goes into great detail differentiating rape from murder he doesn't quite bring it back into the centre frame of the gaming medium. We can argue whether one is worse than the other as much as we want, but here we never really explore the implications of the simulacra of rape in an interactive medium, and if the rules of simulated violence extend to that of simulated rape.

And that, in of itself, is another very interesting discussion because most people will have the knee-jerk reaction of saying that those rules -don't- extend to simulated rape when in reality the answer isn't that clear, and in that you can see a reflection of how the non-gaming community might have a similar rash response to violence in video games.

Of course, the implication of my last statement suggests that I'm trying to say that rape and violence are one and the same, but for clarity I'll point out that I honestly don't know the answer to a question like that, and I'm more interested in expanding the scope of the discussion.

 

[xPixelatedx]

I am sorry Jim, for the first time we are going to have a complete disagreement here.

I will not argue against rape being as horrible as you described it; I totally agree. I simply don't think murdering someone is the lesser of those two evils, so how is it not hypocritical from my point of view? It's very silly and pathetic that we, as a species, have come to this point. To consider any form of assault or abuse greater then a murder is an extremely skewed outlook. Yeah, a rape victim has to live with the trauma the rest of their lives... having the opportunity to live with that trauma is far more welcoming a fate then the alternative you suggested. As bad as the worst traumas are, people usually still manage to experience good things in their lives to. There are rape victims in my own family who, for the most part have had happy, fulfilling lives. No, it's not better to die and have your problems end, not when you are still capable of experiencing joys in life.

To say that rape is worse then murder means you are so desensitized to the act of ending a life, you've forgotten the true implications of what that means.

And yes, anyone can commit murder... I honestly don't see how that plays into the discussion though. Just because everyone can do it, doesn't mean it isn't worse. It just means we (humans) are worse then you think.

And sure, you can kill another person in self defense, but really Jim, is that what we're doing in most the video games we play? I am pretty sure people plop in games revolved around killing because they feeling like killing someone in a fictional setting. We've turned that into a common day activity; the very idea of killing for fun.

Of course I still respect your opinion on the matter.

 

[ultimateownage]

The part about films or books often using it to dehumanise someone reminded me of A Clockwork Orange. Media is often able to use rape as a tool to make a person seem as bad as they can be or give someone a dark and troubled past, but that's the only film (and book) I've seen where they use it for something more than that.
I think they were fine to use rape as a plot device in Tomb Raider. It's used in other media for the same thing. It's a much more emotional and personal event than what murder's been turned into, and it shouldn't ever be ignored out of fear of offending someone or being criticised. There's a BIG difference between using it in a story or as a game mechanic, though. Games like Rape-Lay are on a whole different level, like you explained.

 

[Callate]

I would never want rape to become something as casual in video games as killing. It is a little frustrating to see certain people try to condemn something like Battle Raper out of a false or purpose-contrived sense that it's part of mainstream gaming- it's not, and not by a long shot. Pornography is no more "the mainstream" in video games than it is in movies, and I would profoundly hope that there's a recognition that however enticing something in pornography might be to the viewer, it bears little resemblance to real life. (Ask anyone who works in pizza delivery.)

Hopefully rape is something that video games will eventually be able to handle with maturity. Someone else mentioned "I Spit on Your Grave", but- remakes aside- it's worth noting that the "rape as titilation, revenge to justify that titilation" genre has been waning for some time and has all but vanished from mainstream movies in the twenty-first century. It may be a positive sign for the growth of video games as a medium that they don't seem to have needed such growing pains in dealing with the subject.

 

[Falseprophet]

I'd also like to point out, that while the discussion of rape and murder are discussed, the subject of Torture isn't brought up either, and is something that may give validity to the argument.

You see in many videogames the character can brutally eviscerate their enemies. Look at Kratos from God of War, how often he doesn't just simply and quickly kill enimies, he takes the time to slowly, and painfully murder them. Ripping off their heads from their sholders, cutting into their brains or yanking off limbs. Much like Rape, Torture takes pre meditation and conviction to accomplish, where as killing can be a reflect or a drive to survive.

Technically, though, your examples aren't torture in the usual sense. They're just extremely savage killing. All it really does is remove the ambiguity from the act--the character isn't killing because he has to, he's doing it because he likes it. It's just a glorified kill animation that says something about the protagonist's character, but nothing about torture itself.

A realistic and honest approach to torture would be, should I cause pain and suffering to this guy over prolonged periods, and thoroughly shame and dehumanize him by stripping him nude, passing an electric current through his testicles, forcing him to stand for 36 hours at a time, smashing his fingers with a hammer? If he might know where a bomb is hidden, does that justify it? What if I can't break him, but I do the above to his innocent wife or child? Is that justifiable? That would be a realistic approach to torture.

 

[Elyxard]

This was more intelligent and tasteful than I could have expected. I was at a loss for the question myself, "which is worse", but this gives a good perspective on the issue.

There's a rather disturbing chapter in the webcomic Dominic Deegan about an orc price, who in order to protect a woman that he used his royal rights to protect a recently orphaned woman from death was forced to follow a different tribe's policy that a marriage was required to be consummated immediately after the ceremony. By invoking his right to marriage, he was required to rape her.

It's a rather tragic story, and he basically did it only as an experiment to see what the reaction to the character would be. Most of the feedback was unsurprisingly saying it was terrible thing to do. The only positive feedback he got was from a small handful of women, who were rape victims.

I remember that. I was a big fan of that webcomic, but it started getting a little too weird around this point for me, and not only because of that event. I admire the guy for taking risks, but the story just wasn't for me anymore.

It's always going to be a tricky subject. As an artist I feel that nothing is off limits, but there are lines that are going to have severe consequences if you cross them.

 

[jmarquiso]

we dont really need to be told

The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.

According to the FBI, murder is the least often committed crime, rape tends to stick around the 2nd and 3rd, after Robbery. And that's based on reported convictions.

As a wider discussion, I do think that as a society we do need to talk about it more, but we don't need to simulate it as Jim as saying. In other words, we should be more aware that it happens, and the variety that it does happen. So I think that it's a perfectly fine subject in a game, but not the aim of the game. It was certainly a fact of war during the medieval period that something like Game of Thrones is meant allude to, and it IS a fact of war now.

From our fictional media, you would think that nurder happens at least every week and solved in 45 minutes. Rapes happen once a week in New York City, and there's a pedophile on every corner (the majority of sexual assault is actually date rape, and pedophilia is usually more rare, and largely wrongfully accused due to paranoia).

 

[Comrade_Beric]

I find it fair to say that rape as a form of entertainment has no real place, as opposed to killing, but I think it's important to draw a distinction between killing and murder. Murder is worse than rape because of the totality of it. The complete prevention of the possibility of recovery. I'm not saying that people "get better" after being raped, but it is at least theoretically possible where as someone who is dead cannot possibly have that opportunity. And yet, rape is worse than killing, but murder is worse than rape. Why? Because the word "killing" is distinct from murder because killing can, indeed, be justified, usually by having the person being killed fighting back. The majority of those killed in video games are soldiers for an opposing side in an active war. It's sad, but that's what war is, killing. Murder, on the other hand, generally implies that the death was not justified and, like rape, the victim had little or no possibility of fighting back.

The difference basically comes down to who the victim is and what justification can be used for the action. Murder and rape often overlap when it comes to the victims and the complete lack of justification. This is why there are very few Serial Murderer games in the world, probably even fewer than rape games. This is why there are very few fps games where you actively shoot civilians, even in a war zone. These are acts of murder on par or worse than that reputed blackest of crimes, rape. Games do include death as a simple mechanic of reducing the number of obstacles one has to face, but neither rape nor murder feature in such games because we're well aware of how immoral both of them are. It is when someone generalizes all deaths into a single blanket term that rape becomes the worse offense.

 

[dantoddd]

here is a little question for you guys. would you rather be dead or be raped. answer this honestly.

Frankly i'd pick getting raped over being dead. My suspicion is that at the end of the day vast majority of humanity would as well.

Jim is also hypocritical when he says he's fine with torture but rape is ebil. Many of his argument about why rape is such a heinous offense can be exported wholesale to argue that torture is worse than murder.

 

[Xman490]

There's also the point in the video (instead of Jim's speech) that rape simply cannot be shown to people much.

 

[Casual Shinji]

So even the mighty Sterling can get anxious over a subject. Good to know.

In a nutshell you could say that rape can't be romanticized, but then you have The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo where the rapist himself gets raped in what is clearly a revenge fantasy scene. Had this scene been the other way around (girl first rapes guy, guy then rapes girl as act of revenge) I doubt it would be as vindictively satisfying.

I think what it all comes down to is that sex and sexuality is way more complicated than murder.

 

[Zeriah]

I'd be ok with rape in video games if it was used in the same way as it is in some critically acclaimed movies/books, like a Song of Ice and Fire for example. However it'd have to be done very carefully and it would only make sense in a very well written, story based game -- which as you said, doesn't really exist in video games yet.

One thing that does kind of russles my jimmies is that rape is the only thing on earth that can't be used within any sort of comedy (maybe South Park can get away with it...). When it's light hearted, silly or satirical and not in anyway used aggressively or maliciously, I just don't get how it's pretty much the only thing that's taboo. This is much different than it is in a video game where you freaking control a rapist and it's aggressive, horrible and can even glorify it.

I mean in comedy pedophilia, racial stereotypes/racism, murder, torture, assault, sexism, sexual orientation, body type are all used as subject matter and barely anybody but the Christian Republican Mothers association really bats an eye. However even something as tame and harmless as that Penny Arcade strip gets crucified (not counting the backlash to their classless response here, just the initial hate). I mean I read through that strip and didn't think much of it at all and was shocked to see a few days later, how big an issue it was.

 

[Murlin]

I loved it. Good for you Jim. Excellent piece.

I do disagree with some of what you said. I think the problem isn't that rape isn't wrong, it's just the grey areas that occur in many of the scenarios. There are circumstances where there is a question of what occurred being classified as rape or not.

The problem we have with killing is what the justification is for killing. The problem we have with rape is not justification, because there isn't any. The problem is whether what occurred can actually be classified as rape. Since we cannot justify the action, we aren't able to attach a redeeming quality to the action. We don't have this problem with killing as we see killing in combat, self defence and such as justified.

In fact, I think we have the same objections in both cases. We object to being the villain and victimizing the innocent and defenceless. People even had issues when

Spoiler: in Modern Warfare 2

in Modern Warfare 2 you were undercover as a terrorist and had to gun down the civilians inside the airport.

I would argue that this is more akin to the rape situation than most of the killing that goes on in the video game industry. This is also why it caused such a fuss. People were uncomfortable with that, and the victims were impersonal. Rape would be much more intimate and personal.

I agree with the Modern Warfare 2 scenario. Murder often becomes questionable when the justification doesn't hold up, and killing a defenceless person just for the "feeling of having killed somebody" is a scary mindset.

The difference between gunning down civilians in MW2 and mowing down hordes of enemy soldiers lies in the fact that in many games your 'murder victims' are often just as able to kill you as well, perhaps not even in a face-to-face confrontation but in some other way: I killed the mad scientist because he was going to blow up the earth and that would have effectively killed me as well.

It's also one of the reasons I enjoy stealth or non-lethal approaches such as in Deus Ex HR: it's more challenging to NOT actually kill anyone, though lethality is justified (none of your enemies hesitate to enrichen your body with copious amounts of lead and tungsten)
A game that would specifically require you to kill defenceless people for no good reason I believe I would not enjoy, support, or leave unchallenged.

The same is inherently true for rape: There have rarely been situations were rape-victims were "just as able to rape the perpetrator" and as has been said before in this thread: You don't rape in self-defence (you release...THE TIGER!!!). Rape has no justification other then one's own perverted desire.