Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[littlealicewhite]

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

The issue with your statement is that you are likening rape to a visit to the dentist. I cannot even begin to describe how much that disgusts me.

You say that there is no chance to heal yourself after death. This is true. However, you don't have to live with it. You don't heal after rape. It says with you for the rest of your life.

 

[ischmalud]

ah humble jim sterling - shocking - but very good!

 

[OtherSideofSky]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

I have been required to attend (and answer quizzes on) several "don't rape" lectures as part of both high school and university curricula. There is no shortage of "don't rape" posters adorning the hallways and buildings at my university (which is fairly large and considered among the best in the US). I personally know people who work for organizations that work to disseminate this message (there are several and they are fairly well funded). Protest signs reading "tell men not to rape" have become commonplace, even at protests for entirely unrelated causes. A fair number of parents do, in fact, include this in the talks they have with their children. Many forms of religious education include a message not to rape. Men accused of rape are subject to higher rates of vigilante violence than people accused of any other crime, even if they are proven to have been falsely accused. You are merely reiterating a message of ignorance and bigotry.

A better comparison than smoking or drinking would be child abuse. Are there any campaigns telling women not to abuse children? According to the DoJ, they do it twice as often as men. Clearly all women need to be told not to. After all, when was the last time you saw a poster showing a mother beating her children that said "don't do this"?

Also, I notice that you are always careful to choose your pronouns when referring to rape so that the rapist is always a "he" and the victim is always a "she". I have explained earlier in this thread why this is incredibly problematic. Gendered terminology only serves to alienate and erase victims who do not fit that narrative, whereas gender-neutral terminology would allow you to address all cases inclusively.

 

[Magmarock]

Oh wow I loved this episode. I've gotten into this argument before and always tried to present that rape was worse and should be restricted. However, I was never really able to articulate my argument too well so thanks again for the video. Great episode as always Jim.

 

[Starik20X6]

-snip-

I think you misinterpreted my post. I'm in no way condoning murder, but as mentioned in the video, there are instances where killing can be justified. There is no instance where rape could be justified. Ever. That's what I meant by it being a whole other level of evil. As for when human life became cheap? Don't ask me, ask the people who play war shooters.

 

[Raioken18]

I'm going to stay away from talking about rape, but personally I think it's harder to separate yourself from that sort of act when compared to killing in a videogame.

You know what game had surprisingly violent killing? Minecraft pvp.

Take cod or whatever if you knife someone then it's usually an instant kill, but in Minecraft you need to stab them over and over again as they stab you back and it's actually pretty horrific and you understand something, if you are killing someone in close range, they are usually going to try defending themselves. The other thing that I appreciated? The longer and more random points at which you were attacked, there isn't any buildup in fps pvp games, and it uses the instant gratification of constant murders as opposed to this build up and sometimes knowing you are stuffed (you don't respawn till the map resets in pvp matches).

Which is why minecraft pvp gets my blood pumping and in CoD or Battlefield I can cold bloodedly kill or be killed and not feel a thing, actually sometimes I feel actively bored.

 

[RootBrewski]

Jim I'd love to know how you manage to get into my head and speak my mind for me sometimes. Honestly though this video summarizes my whole view on rape in fiction. I had an argument with a co-worker, about this same topic not too long ago actually (Although we were talking about comic books not video games).

 

[alandavidson]

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.

Just to help back up your argument:

73% of rapes are perpetrated by someone known to the victim

38% of rapists are a friend of acquaintance

4 in 10 rapes happen within the victim's home

44% of victims are under 18 years old

Source: RAINN.org

A little more on topic. Jim, thanks for putting out this episode.

 

[hooksashands]

Whether or not you or I like the idea of rape is irrelevant, as irrelevant as the fact that some religious extremists think all forms of violent media should be banned. It's victimless, and if anything, it's preventing the horrible acts it depicts by giving people that are considering them a harmless alternative to the real thing.

Is it really right to go with the "It could be worse, they could be raping real people" hand-wave here? To me that's even worse. Not that they're raping fictional characters, but that we have to cater to them as our very own rapist demographic... or else. That scares me. A lot.

But I suppose "It could be worse, they could be killing real people" is okay?

Here's the problem: Murder has already become commonplace in videogames. There is literally nothing we can do as a society to de-engineer games with respawn points and slow motion kill cams, things that trivialize and glorify death. Rape is still taboo. I understand your anger about how killing is downplayed but honestly, it's out of our hands now. But if nothing else we have to keep rape morally deplorable because we've failed to do that with murder.

 

[GryffinDarkBreed]

A bit off topic yet not... What about consensual sex in a game? Murder and killing are inherently unnatural acts. We are not programmed to kill each other, and as social, sentient beings, even professional soldiers have some degree of trauma performing the act. Not everyone will kill someone in their lifetime, but consensual sex is something the vast majority of people will enjoy with someone else. Not only will most of us perform the act, and not only are we programmed to perform it, it is the sole reason our species continues to exist. So why are we so squeamish about any media visibly portraying sex?

I dunno, just thought I'd mention it. Society makes sense much of the time, but some ancient societal norms are really quite silly. Glorify violence, and shame those who enjoy pleasures of the flesh we all in some way desire.

 

[bluerocker]

*Clap*

Nice presentation of a very polarizing issue.

 

[DiMono]

If I'm playing a game and another character actually rapes me, it means the other player has to actively continue doing things to me, and I have to sit there and watch it happen, or else try to resist.

i may be a bad person for this, but i just pictured a fellow player walking up to you, and in the family guy character herberts voice say: "hey there young fella, you want a cold popsicle to cool you down? the one who swallows the most tylenol pm's wins!" and your character shouts "i need an adult! i need an adult!"

I say that line for humour value much more frequently than I probably should at my age.

 

[Yabu]

-snip-

I think you misinterpreted my post. I'm in no way condoning murder, but as mentioned in the video, there are instances where killing can be justified. There is no instance where rape could be justified. Ever. That's what I meant by it being a whole other level of evil. As for when human life became cheap? Don't ask me, ask the people who play war shooters.

Maybe you can justify killing, but I don't think you can justify murder ever either. Merriam Webster defines murder as "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". That being said, I think it is fair game to use it in video games or in any type of fiction other than hate propaganda.

I also don't think playing a war shooter means you devalue life. There is a distinct difference between reality and fiction. When I said when did life become cheap, I mean in context to a real murderer being considered less evil than a real rapist.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

You don't rape in self-defense.
I could defend a game with rape IN it but not a game that is ABOUT rape.

You don't murder in self-defense either. I mean, it's legal to do so, hence not murder.

 

[Yabu]

Whether or not you or I like the idea of rape is irrelevant, as irrelevant as the fact that some religious extremists think all forms of violent media should be banned. It's victimless, and if anything, it's preventing the horrible acts it depicts by giving people that are considering them a harmless alternative to the real thing.

Is it really right to go with the "It could be worse, they could be raping real people" hand-wave here? To me that's even worse. Not that they're raping fictional characters, but that we have to cater to them as our very own rapist demographic... or else. That scares me. A lot.

But I suppose "It could be worse, they could be killing real people" is okay?

Here's the problem: Murder has already become commonplace in videogames. There is literally nothing we can do as a society to de-engineer games with respawn points and slow motion kill cams, things that trivialize and glorify death. Rape is still taboo. I understand your anger about how killing is downplayed but honestly, it's out of our hands now. But if nothing else we have to keep rape morally deplorable because we've failed to do that with murder.

Actually that was not my point at all. I am not angered at all about the downplay of murder in video games. I enjoy playing many video games where the protagonist is given the opportunity to commit murder or even does it as a plot point.

I was just trying to make a point that separating some level of morality from everyday entertainment is commonplace and enjoyed by most people. Be it violence, infidelity, lying, or a number of other morally wrong things to do. Fictional characters throughout history, which we enjoy are constantly wrapped up in fictional problems that we lose ourselves in as an escape from our own lives. When this is done in poor taste, the content usually doesn't do to well. I think you can explore a wide variety of themes in fiction to cater to any number of demographics.

 

[Starik20X6]

-snip-

Fair point, I could have worded my original post a bit better. Oh there's absolutely a line between reality and fiction, I'm not one of those people who thinks people can't tell the difference. I just can't understand why anyone would enjoy playing a game where the objective was to rape, much less defend it as something that should exist. As for real life murderer or rapist, either has crossed the moral event horizon, they're both deplorable acts and there's no coming back from it. I guess rape just disturbs me more for some reason.

 

[lacktheknack]

Yes, I agree with you 100% on every point.

All that being said though, I'm still looking forward to the new Tomb Raider. If any game looks like it could handle the subject matter well it's that one.

...but it won't. Crystal Dynamics have been very, VERY clear on that, no matter what their idiot of a PR agent says.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Yes, I agree with you 100% on every point.

All that being said though, I'm still looking forward to the new Tomb Raider. If any game looks like it could handle the subject matter well it's that one.

...but it won't. Crystal Dynamics have been very, VERY clear on that, no matter what their idiot of a PR agent says.

Alright, so If the new Tomb Raider wont feature any rapists I guess it'll be a huge win for the LGBTQ community as the first game featuring the largest population of homosexual pirates.
Seriously, what the fuck.

That's very disappointing, I mean seriously out of ALL the E3 coverage I read I can't even find 3 games that look like they might be worth playing.

How the fuck are they... why did they... fuck. Yeah, see what I care if they want to give their dark gritty Tomb Raider reboot some Disney fuck villains.
Sorry, I'm back to being cynical now. Thanks for warning me before I got my hopes up or anything.

 

[Bevin Warren]

I hate the idea of rape...
however comming at it from a purely intellectual stand point its good to see society has moved away from Rape as being a given right of conquest - hence the term Rape and Pillage... counquring armies had the right to rape its population before they were allowed to loot - its good to know this is no longer the case but maybe we need to be reimded of what used to be considered right is not the case... should rape be in games ... maybe in extreme circumstances...certainly it shouldn't be used to entertain but educate maybe...

Who knows maybe a game in which the main character is raped and the rest of the game is them seeking retribution or acceptance might be a socially successful thing...

just stating now Im not a fan or rape and only looked at it from an intellectual view point - My wife was raped before she ever met me and if I ever bump into the guy that did that to her in a dark alley,m he will quickly find he might soon lose the ability to do that ever again.

 

[lacktheknack]

Yes, I agree with you 100% on every point.

All that being said though, I'm still looking forward to the new Tomb Raider. If any game looks like it could handle the subject matter well it's that one.

...but it won't. Crystal Dynamics have been very, VERY clear on that, no matter what their idiot of a PR agent says.

Alright, so If the new Tomb Raider wont feature any rapists I guess it'll be a huge win for the LGBTQ community as the first game featuring the largest population of homosexual pirates.
Seriously, what the fuck.

That's very disappointing, I mean seriously out of ALL the E3 coverage I read I can't even find 3 games that look like they might be worth playing.

How the fuck are they... why did they... fuck. Yeah, see what I care if they want to give their dark gritty Tomb Raider reboot some Disney fuck villains.
Sorry, I'm back to being cynical now. Thanks for warning me before I got my hopes up or anything.

One of them does try to rape her. You see all one attempt of it in the freaking E3 trailer. It's an unfailable sequence, the fight afterwards is failable through death only.

You're doing waaaay too much projection here. For all you know, Lara never remains in their hands for long enough for anything else to happen. For all you know, they're religious psychos who intend to sacrifice them (see the hanging-upside-down part). For all you know, they're deliciously evil except they don't rape people because that would be an atrocious idea at this point.

(Also, if they WERE all homosexual, then the other male survivors we see in the trailer have a problem now, don't they?)