Jimquisition: Review Embargoes And Why They're Okay Sometimes

Remus

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I buy what interests me and worry about reviews later. This is largely due to the fact that if something interests me, I sign up for beta beforehand. This way, I'll have not only helped the developer create a good product, but I'll have an idea if a game is truly what I'm looking for or not. It is rare that I test a game and then not buy it when it hits retail. Of course, I've refrained from investing in Steam greenlight games. I don't feel the urge to tread through the kind of shit I've seen Jim rail about - that level of investment in a product that at minimum has a 50/50 chance of being utter crap is an investment I simply cannot give. I have done this for Guild Wars (AWESOME end-of-beta closeout party), Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, Destiny, Red Orchestra 2, and others that aren't coming to mind at this time. Don't regret a single one because all these products have given me much enjoyment over the years and I did not need a reviewer to validate that.
 

Lightknight

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See, Jim, we need a code. If a REALLY crappy game is about to blind side us, just post a video with your eyes wide open in terror for a few minutes and we'll know that one of the videos likely to come out soon is terrible. But not specifically which one...
 

hermes

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Mydnyght said:
I think that joke was something like this, Jim. Well, one version of it,anyway.
Yeah, I came here to post pretty much the same thing...

OT: Embargos can be pretty crappy as a way to silence some of the discussion. I remember a few years ago, that Konami conditioned the embargo review of MGS4 to things like "don't talk about the hour long installation", or "don't talk about the first cutscene being 45 minutes long". Konami being Konami, it should surprise no one, but it was quite awful at the time...
 

CaitSeith

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Silentpony said:
Not to bring #GamerGate into this, because Jim doesn't want to comment on that anymore, but doesn't the idea you're offering Jim kinda' reinforce what the protesters mean? The gist of embargoes, as I understood it, was 'trust us, we're not corrupt' and that's about it. I mean yes you did say no favors for reviews, but again, we're only taking your word for it. Now I do trust YOU specifically not to, but the industry as a whole? Are we supposed to look at the obvious backdoor dealing here, review copies, free games/consoles, private time with producers, etc...and just shrug and say 'doh well, that's how it goes."
Isn't the whole idea of 'self-regulating journalism' one of the problems the #GamerGate crowd is pushing against?
Would you prefer the games to be lended instead of being free?
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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CaitSeith said:
Silentpony said:
Not to bring #GamerGate into this, because Jim doesn't want to comment on that anymore, but doesn't the idea you're offering Jim kinda' reinforce what the protesters mean? The gist of embargoes, as I understood it, was 'trust us, we're not corrupt' and that's about it. I mean yes you did say no favors for reviews, but again, we're only taking your word for it. Now I do trust YOU specifically not to, but the industry as a whole? Are we supposed to look at the obvious backdoor dealing here, review copies, free games/consoles, private time with producers, etc...and just shrug and say 'doh well, that's how it goes."
Isn't the whole idea of 'self-regulating journalism' one of the problems the #GamerGate crowd is pushing against?
Would you prefer the games to be lended instead of being free?
Yes! Or 50% off or something. Anything to make it look like the games aren't gifts. For all we know the games arrive at the reviewer's office wrapped up like a Xmas gift with a little note saying 'Thanks for playing XOXO'
 

hydrolythe

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Review Embargoes And Why They're Okay Sometimes

: It's review season, which means I'm thinking a lot about the process of saying words about videogames. This week, why review embargoes aren't terrible ... most of the time.

Watch Video
It is so hilarious that professional game reviewers get pressured to get their reviews out before the game is even released due to competition, since internet reviewers (such as him: https://www.youtube.com/user/Chrontendo ) can talk about games that were released 25 years earlier and can wait for months to prepare their review series, all the while that review magazines come out once a month. Even more funny is that internet reviewers are in general more praised for their reviews while professional reviewers are mocked mercilessly, but you can admit they kind of deserve it for not doing proper research on the game in question, because internet reviewers seem to always do their research when they review.
 

Demonchaser27

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Good video topic Jim.

I'll be honest I downright despise review embargoes from a customer standpoint. But I'm perfectly willing to deal with them ONLY for the sake of reviewers not giving shitty, information-less (lack of better term) reviews. However, these are my conditions:

1. The embargo should not EVER be later than one week before release. This gives practically anyone interested time to find reviews no matter how busy your schedule is. And it counteracts and balances this whole "Pre-Order" culture BS. It would do a lot to make sure Developers/Publishers make better products since they know they won't be able to hide behind Pre-orders with no repercussions (remember we can almost never really return games, even if they lie to us in advertising).

2. Journalist aren't attached to Dev/Pubs like a leash. Meaning some form of enforcement (or discount) to make sure all qualified reviewers can get a copy for review. If not this, then at the very least illegality of blacklisting and still requirement for qualified reviewers to get a copy for review. At this point, a time where you often can't try before you buy or return goods whether buggy, damaged, lied about or just outright shit, reviews should be looked upon as a required consumer good. They should be treated as the balance against the marketing forces of entertainment goods. Because at this point, for the consumer, we have what economist call a type of market failure in video games. The market alone has failed to provide consumers the required factual information to make truly, honest and informed purchasing decisions. Therefore there is now a distortion of truth and lack of trust and confidence in gaming. GamerGate is a perfect example of this. There really isn't any excuse why a publisher should be able to actively harm both the reviewers and consumers by saying "You didn't do what we wanted/give us the score we wanted, your blacklisted".

And as a perfect recent example of what's wrong with all this, Destiny has had an embargo essentially set after release (yes they got the copies but what good is that if you aren't allowed to play the damn game). It's getting to a point that some new laws might have to be made just for some fucking consumer protections against the fraudulent activities of these corporations.
 
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Fappy said:
Just goes to show you how meaningless those quotes are in these kinds of trailers. I am sure movie TV ads do this shit all the time.
the risk of getting on the hype train.
Every trailer I saw for Destiny talked about it winning over 100 awards... for a game that wasn't released. madness
 

Pyrian

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Silentpony said:
I mean if I was making a game, I'd make damn sure the critics got a better copy of the game than the standard one.
...Why? If you have two versions of a game, one better and the other worse, why would you give ANYBODY the worse version? It's not like you can skimp on materials or something.
 

Alpha Maeko

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If you're going to preorder a game, you've given up your need to see a review.

If you're not going to preorder, you can wait for the reviews before you buy it.

It's not like the preorder bonuses are actually worth hav-...

*Lightning gets a SOLDIER uniform and Buster Sword if you get the preoroder*

... TAKE ALL MY MONEY SQUEENIX!
 

CaitSeith

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Silentpony said:
CaitSeith said:
Silentpony said:
Not to bring #GamerGate into this, because Jim doesn't want to comment on that anymore, but doesn't the idea you're offering Jim kinda' reinforce what the protesters mean? The gist of embargoes, as I understood it, was 'trust us, we're not corrupt' and that's about it. I mean yes you did say no favors for reviews, but again, we're only taking your word for it. Now I do trust YOU specifically not to, but the industry as a whole? Are we supposed to look at the obvious backdoor dealing here, review copies, free games/consoles, private time with producers, etc...and just shrug and say 'doh well, that's how it goes."
Isn't the whole idea of 'self-regulating journalism' one of the problems the #GamerGate crowd is pushing against?
Would you prefer the games to be lended instead of being free?
Yes! Or 50% off or something. Anything to make it look like the games aren't gifts. For all we know the games arrive at the reviewer's office wrapped up like a Xmas gift with a little note saying 'Thanks for playing XOXO'
I'm trying hard to interpret your argument as something else than "it's not fair that we have to pay for our games and they don't". As playing those games is their work, it's less of a gift and more of a task. Because of this, I can think three cases in which getting the games free can impact the integrity of the reviewer:

1. The game isn't meant to be reviewed. It's just a regular way of payment.
2. The game is a collectors edition, with all the extra stuff being unrelated to the game just as an incentive (or payment).
3. The game was meant to keep him from reviewing other publishers' games (as if Activision gave him its latest CoD under the condition of not reviewing the latest Battlefield game).

Just remember that instead of paying money, they are paying with their freedom of choice (you can choose what not to play, they can't); and it becomes their job to play with both crap and gold, until they become allergic to crap.
 

EternallyBored

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Silentpony said:
Yes! Or 50% off or something. Anything to make it look like the games aren't gifts. For all we know the games arrive at the reviewer's office wrapped up like a Xmas gift with a little note saying 'Thanks for playing XOXO'
The issue here is you are asking developers and publishers to unify and set standards for themselves that they have no requirement or incentive to do so, and every incentive to not do so. There's practicality to consider too, in the case of lending, what does this actually solve? Why would the publishers or devs want to get back the hundreds of review copies they sent out, they aren't really in a position to resell them, so they've now got a bunch of useless game code that they either have to trash if it's in physical format, or it's a digital copy in which case its just code that deletes itself after a certain period of time.

In the case of discounts you run into the issue that developers and publishers aren't really set up to accept money like that, they aren't store fronts, so you have a likely chance that it would actually be cheaper for the larger developers and publishers to send out free copies than it would be for them to try and set up a system for the reviewers to purchase the games early at some kind of discount.


Demonchaser27 said:
2. Journalist aren't attached to Dev/Pubs like a leash. Meaning some form of enforcement (or discount) to make sure all qualified reviewers can get a copy for review. If not this, then at the very list illegality of blacklisting and still requirement for qualified reviewers to get a copy for review. At this point, a time where you often can't try before you buy or return goods whether buggy, damaged, lied about or just outright shit, reviews should be looked upon as a required consumer good. They should be treated as the balance against the marketing forces of entertainment goods. There really isn't any excuse why a publisher should be able to actively harm both the reviewers and consumers by saying "You didn't do what we wanted/give us the score we wanted, your blacklisted".

And as a perfect recent example of all this, Destiny has had an embargo essentially set after release (yes they got the copies but what good is that if you aren't allowed to play the damn game). It's getting to a point that some new laws might have to be made just for some fucking consumer protections against the fraudulent activities of these corporations.
Good luck convincing the U.S. government to actually enforce anything like that, you would be lucky if it didn't die in committee, the U.S. government takes a very caveat emptor (buyer beware) approach to any consumer product that doesn't effect physical safety or health. Reviews are protected from copyright infringement under fair use, but there is very little regulation beyond that, the government sees it as the consumers responsibility to inform themselves and the review industry is a free market enterprise that is providing a non-essential consumer service based on subjective quality of a non-essential good.

The EU is a little more on the consumer side, with laws stating that even software should be returnable for a refund, and generally stricter laws on false advertisement, but even then, the consumer review industry is still not seen as an essential consumer service, and you would have a hard time convincing them that view should be changed.

Luxury items are generally not very strictly regulated in any fashion, as it is seen as the buyers responsibility to inform themselves, especially if the product has a minimal risk of causing physical harm or issues.
 

-Dragmire-

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Silentpony said:
Also I'm still not sold on free games and consoles. I mean the biggest question all gamers ask of a game 'is it worth buying?'. And how would a critic who doesn't pay for anything ever be able to judge that?! Yes, their opinion isn't tainted by the knowledge this game was an investment, but for everyone else? Hell yeah its important!
Does GTA V have better character development than the Witcher II? Oh who the hell cares!
Are they worth buying? With real money that I have to work for? That's should be the most important factor for a game, not if the water reflects light or if the gameplay feels repetitive.
I can tell you this too; if I got shit for free, I'd give it a kinder review. If Toyota and Ford gave me free cars and asked me to write a review, I couldn't distance myself from the fact I didn't pay $40,000 for it. The nitpicks don't matter!
Should games be judged and scored on a sliding scale that accommodates potential future prices? Where a $60 game is a 3 star or 6/10 on launch but would be considered a 5 star one at $5? The degree to which different people value their disposable income can be quite vast and things like character development and repetitive gameplay can be very important factors for people according to their tastes. (Small note, some controversy was had over that expensive Metal Gear Solid demo because the price was heavily influencing the score. I'm just saying this because it shows there isn't a universal acceptance of a price vs game quality that people agree on)


The free stuff issue is less of an issue when it becomes work(especially when being told to review a game you have no interest in). Eventually, those cars stop feeling special after you get so many a week that you can't review them all. It's not a position that the general public will understand, but you can be sure that the feeling of the item being a 'gift' quickly fades when it's tied to a full schedule of work to complete.
 

LaoJim

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Review Embargoes make sense to me.

Say a new game is released on Tuesday 23rd. So reviewers need a decent amount of time to play it and write a review. Lets say a week. So the publisher need to furnish each of them with a review copy by Tuesday 16th. However there is competition between review sites as to who gets their review site up first. Site A works on the review 9 to 5 for the 5 working days of the week (40 hours of game play) and publishes a thorough review on the night of Monday 22nd. Site B has their reviewer work overtime from 9 till 10 for 3 days of the week (39 hours play) and writes a still good but slightly frazzled review on Thursday 18th. Site C gets their reviewer to play the game from 9 till 9 on Tuesday on the same day. (12 hours play) and publishes a rushed and incomplete review. Site C gets the most hits, Site B gets some and Site A gets very little because everyone already 'knows' about the game and Metacritic has already spoken.

Having a deadline where everyone publishes at the same time benefits reputable review sites and the readers. Now personally I think this shouldn't be the day of release but maybe the previous Friday (assuming a Tuesday review). As Jim notes there is of course plenty of potential for this to be abused by shady marketing departments.

In cases where a review embargo is set after release date or if no preview copies are sent out, I'm all for sites saying "This is why we don't have a full review today on the day of release. We went out and bought a copy when the shops opened this morning, we've played 2 hours, this is what we think so far. Full review to follow in a few days." I also think it'd be a good idea for reviews to make a brief note of how much of the game they've played (e.g. "Story Complete on Normal with 80% of side quests, First 3 levels on Hard. 4 hours multiplayer all game modes at least 3 rounds. Total time spent 32 hours").
 

EternallyBored

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Pyrian said:
Silentpony said:
I mean if I was making a game, I'd make damn sure the critics got a better copy of the game than the standard one.
...Why? If you have two versions of a game, one better and the other worse, why would you give ANYBODY the worse version? It's not like you can skimp on materials or something.
This sentiment seems to crop up after the rumors that review copies of Watch Dogs were somehow running better than the retail copies, I've yet to see any proof of this, or any proof that a developer has ever given out a noticeably better review copy than what the base consumer gets. The only thing I can think of where this would ever remotely happen is if the game has already gone gold but they are releasing a day 1 patch, they might send out the review copies with the patch already installed, that's the only scenario I can think of where a reviewer might have a slightly better version than the retail copies.
 

medv4380

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Kmadden2004 said:
Silentpony said:
Now I do trust YOU specifically not to, but the industry as a whole? Are we supposed to look at the obvious backdoor dealing here, review copies, free games/consoles, private time with producers, etc...and just shrug and say 'doh well, that's how it goes."
Isn't the whole idea of 'self-regulating journalism' one of the problems the #GamerGate crowd is pushing against?
I'm sorry, but review copies are absolutely necessary, how else are sites like The Escapist supposed to get a decent review out for a game's release date (at the very latest) if the publisher doesn't send them a copy before then? It's no different to film critics like MovieBob going to free press screenings of movies a week or two in advance. It's all part of the process, and it is mutually beneficial for all parties involved (developers, publishers, reviewers and the audience) to keep that process going. And the same really applies to games consoles.
You use an evil 3rd party group to disseminate review copies.

The 3rd party option allows for a couple of alternatives.

Developers could be hurt with a reverse blacklist if they're caught breaking the rules like moving up a games release to on, or after the embargo.
It allows for a way to change the embargo in a good way if it needs to be moved, and they'd have consistent rules on how they were set
Journalists would have a way to appeal a blacklisting.
Journalists wouldn't be blacklisted indefinitely, and never for negative reviews
Journalists are kept as far away from a conflict of interest as they reasonably can.


As it stands when a developer does something shady they don't have to worry. Was Sega hurt for the embargo on Aliens? Was EA hurt for the Private Hotel reviews of SimCity? The gaming press has no teeth to bit back when it has a reason to bit back. There's always going to be people who'll take the exclusive review copy, or the free vacation to Los Vegas. Unless you have someone powerful enough to enforce the rules.

The problem is who do you trust with that power. The 3rd part would have to be trusted by developers, but can't be a developer since that would be a conflict of interest. The journalists also have to trust them, and couldn't be a news outlet since you don't want any individual outlet having an advantage over the others. Whoever had that kind of power would have the power to make, or break the industry. They would be an evil unto themselves like the MPAA, RIAA, or ESRB.
 

punipunipyo

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uep... hate fly(s)... when weather's hot, they like to get indoors... couldn't kill them fast enough... stupid step-dad, keeping back door open letting bugs in... gonna go kill some bugs.....
 

balladbird

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themilo504 said:
01.24 I?m very disappointed Jim, Guo Jia is a much better strategist than Zhuge Liang, his death is pretty much the only thing stopping cao cao from taking over china, and his weapon is a cue stick that shoots magic pool balls at enemies. #I stand with Guo Jia
Fie to you, dog of Cao-Wei! everyone knows the true force to be reckoned with was the team of Sun Ce and Zhou Yu! Had the former not died young, the era of three kingdoms would have been skipped in its entirety! #wupride

to be serious for a moment, though, I learned quite a bit from Jim this week. I freely admit to ignorance on a lot of the business end of the industry, including where it overlaps with the review publication side. it's part of why I don't bother expressing my opinion about the various controversies therein, short of when a company like EA or the like openly screws its customer base.
 

Malpraxis

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I only saw how his argument benefits Publishers and Reviewers, but not really the consumer (ie. us).

I mean, I know it's better for the consumer to read a fleshed out review with someone with enough time to experience the game, but taking the Colonial Marines example: If embargos didn't exist, it would take virtually no time for reviewers to universally see that it's crap. And you don't need a review for that, just a tweet would be enough, a freaking lolcat picture saying 'it sucks', or a first impressions video if you're feeling fancy. Anything to ultimately help the consumer.

But I guess the status quo is okay... fanboys will always preorder a year in advance, and people with 2 working brain cells can wait for reviews to roll in. I don't quite understand that mentality of 'being the first to play it' anyway. Don't these people have jobs/school, significant others, or hobbies to distract them from the latest release for a few days?.

All in all, the episode was pretty informative and enjoyable.