Jimquisition: Salt Of The Earth - A Steam Fail Story

[veloper]

So, let me get this straight. One asshole releases a shitty product. The fault is his, but the real villain here, the mastermind of madness, the dictator of darkness...Is VALVE! They(or , Steam as they've apparently renamed themselves) are the true blight upon PC gaming! They, as the owners of a gaming store should enforce draconian rules so as not to sully the genepool of the master race!

Why, of course this is so, just the other day I tossed excrement at a Game Shop employee for daring to carry a bad game. It is my duty as a Member of the PC Master Gaming Race after all. We cannot allow free choice...

Shame about you Jim, thought you had some good stuff for a while, but your "STEAM NEEDS TO ANSWER!" stuff is a bit tiresome. Steam is a damn store, the only thing Valve need to answer is refunds and keeping obvious scams gone. But people here seem to want for steam to crash so they can roll around in their own smug filth and go "Told you so! Filthy pleb!"

If crime is high in a city, in order to lower crime do you blame the criminals or the police?

Valve is the police here, if you didn't get the analogy.

Fun! Or maybe the citizens in this case just need to start thinking seriously about locking their front doors.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

So, let me get this straight. One asshole releases a shitty product. The fault is his, but the real villain here, the mastermind of madness, the dictator of darkness...Is VALVE! They(or , Steam as they've apparently renamed themselves) are the true blight upon PC gaming! They, as the owners of a gaming store should enforce draconian rules so as not to sully the genepool of the master race!

Why, of course this is so, just the other day I tossed excrement at a Game Shop employee for daring to carry a bad game. It is my duty as a Member of the PC Master Gaming Race after all. We cannot allow free choice...

Shame about you Jim, thought you had some good stuff for a while, but your "STEAM NEEDS TO ANSWER!" stuff is a bit tiresome. Steam is a damn store, the only thing Valve need to answer is refunds and keeping obvious scams gone. But people here seem to want for steam to crash so they can roll around in their own smug filth and go "Told you so! Filthy pleb!"

Spoiler: 0.0 Don't open this. Scary lady Sarkeesian lives in here.

[https://imageshack.com/i/j68lk4j]

xD Opps. My bad that's just the lady who happens to be right behind you.

Spoiler: Here is Anita. Don't open it.

[https://imageshack.com/i/5ii6cjj]

I'm pretty sure that guy didn't read any of what you said to begin with

I did, but his wording was such that it definetly left that possibility there so I asked for clarification

and I find it comical that he somehow looped Sarkeesian into this.

I was only pointing out that Jim is perfectly fine calling out this Muxwell for his scam, but will defend another

He says "it's pc and there is no quality control on an open platform and that's ok" but then goes on about a woman that did a kickstarter to produce videos based on the works she's already started but that is somehow wrong because there's, apparently, quality control on the internet.

I never said that internet has quality control nor did I imply so either. Strawmanning ain't getting you anywhere. Also I am saying that open platforms tend to have more crap on them by default, thats just how it is. Valve specifically want's to open up steam for everyone, and if thats their goal then inevitably they will end up with more crap as well. Now trying to get that crap to sink to the bottom as quickly as possible is another matter entierly. But my point stands, steam dosen't need quality control. At least not traditional quality control

And the kicker is pretending like there was nothing but civil conversations and arguments against her views and then brushes off the hundreds of rape threats and terrible behavior like defacing web pages or calling her a scammer which really isn't the case. I find it shameful that there are people out there that are more offended by her ideas than the fools that threatened her with rape and murder.

I never brushed off the death threats, I fully acknowledged them, you on the other hand brush off everyone critising her as a troll. Civil discussion was happening and I even sent her a perfectly polite e-mail asking about what shes using the money for, unsuprisingly she still hasn't responded. Also death and rape threats are not a rare occurence at all. Anyone with an opinion on the internet has gotten their fair share of hatred, male or female. And yes that includes death and rape threats for men too. Why are you pretending that this is an issue of gender instead of being one of simple disagreement.

Thank you, my tought's exactly

The issue Jim is bringing up isn't simply that there are bad games being put on Steam. It is that the devs doing so are able and sometimes do silence anyone saying something they don't like about their games in the forums.
Some are even putting out fake reviews.

This means that we can't just go by word of mouth and have faith that what people are saying about the game on the site are true.
This is bad because not all people who play games are going on to site like the Escapist and having people like Jim let us know who is trying to lie.

People for quality control on Steam don't want such because they want Steam to die. They want it so Steam can improve and continue.

 

[Thanatos2k]

So, let me get this straight. One asshole releases a shitty product. The fault is his, but the real villain here, the mastermind of madness, the dictator of darkness...Is VALVE! They(or , Steam as they've apparently renamed themselves) are the true blight upon PC gaming! They, as the owners of a gaming store should enforce draconian rules so as not to sully the genepool of the master race!

Why, of course this is so, just the other day I tossed excrement at a Game Shop employee for daring to carry a bad game. It is my duty as a Member of the PC Master Gaming Race after all. We cannot allow free choice...

Shame about you Jim, thought you had some good stuff for a while, but your "STEAM NEEDS TO ANSWER!" stuff is a bit tiresome. Steam is a damn store, the only thing Valve need to answer is refunds and keeping obvious scams gone. But people here seem to want for steam to crash so they can roll around in their own smug filth and go "Told you so! Filthy pleb!"

If crime is high in a city, in order to lower crime do you blame the criminals or the police?

Valve is the police here, if you didn't get the analogy.

Fun! Or maybe the citizens in this case just need to start thinking seriously about locking their front doors.

Citizens deserve some of the blame sure, but allowing the criminals to operate is all on the police here.

 

[Alterego-X]

That's exactly how the video game crash of '83 happened, you realize.

There was zero regulation on what was flooding the marketplace, leading to endless numbers of terrible clones and unfinished shovelware being pushed out and completely saturating the market, bursting the bubble and causing people to basically stop buying games because they couldn't put any faith that what they were buying was actually going to be good.

In 1983, the Internet didn't exist, game journalism was in it's infancy, and few enough people owned consoles that often word of mouth just didn't start. A gaming-literate few could filter for themselves, but for most, walking into a store and buying whatever had the most attractive cover, was literally the only way to get new games.

This is pretty much the opposite of what's happening to Steam, where the average consumer can easily do their own basic online research, and the only ones who resort to blindly browsing the daily releases are core gamers who pride themselves on seeking hidden gems and going beyond the hyped and recommended safe choices. For all the noise they might make when they step into a stinker, the very fact that team has an open lineup is why they are there. If steam would only offer big heavily marketed AAAs, and universally praised viral indies, there would be little reason to randomly browse their offerings in the first place.

And in either case, this all is a fringe habit. Most people already come onto the website with a solid plan to buy Goat Simulator, or Kerbal Space Program, or Rust, or Planetary Annihilation, and they won't insist on doing the same purchase on Green Man Gaming just because they know that Steam also hosts some other, bad, games.

Steam has little to fear about losing the people who follow that fringe trend, and a lot more to fear about the next apparent Earth: Year 2066 getting turned away from them, released independently, and turning out to actually be the next Minecraft instead.

 

[Brian Tams]

Valve has got to get their shit together, and it needs to happen fast.
The Store is a mess. Green Light is a broken system. Early Access is being used more and more as a way of scamming people out of their money. Developers are censoring any and all criticism leveled against them.

And Valve wants to expand their service to the family living room? Does any of the above sound like something you want in your living room?

Valve has a very clear check-list of shit to clean-up before they even think of releasing their Steam Machines. Get on it.

 

[jehk]

If crime is high in a city, in order to lower crime do you blame the criminals or the police?

Valve is the police here, if you didn't get the analogy.

I don't agree with this analogy. The community is the police. Not Valve. Valve is just a supplier of police uniforms and badges.

Having said that, the community doesn't have the tools and resources it needs to police. Valve's failure to supply means the community might get it else where or be without. It's not unreasonable to ask Valve to supply what's missing. It's in their best interests to sure the community is supplied with what it needs to police.

 

[maximara]

A perfect example of why Steam should absolutely not give that moderation power to the publisher/developers. At the very least there should have to be a big, fat banner that appears at the top of the page informing people of how many posts have been deleted from the page, which might give an at-a-glance clue to how harshly a publisher is wielding the censorship bat.

I'm truly baffled by how steam went downhill so quickly in their standards after actually earning their place on top by offering a worthwhile service and using the fact they're privately traded so as to avoid the uninformed demands of stockholder that drag down other companies.

Hopefully 'early access' scams like this will poison the well sooner than later and put an end to the money that can be milked by this system. And my heart goes out to the Quality-Assurance personnel who have surely been knocked even lower on the totem pole (if that's at all possible) by the publishers that I'm sure exists out there who think early access will be an acceptable replacement.

What I don't understand is how this is allowed to happen without Steam being somehow being held responsible.

 

[Darth_Payn]

If nothing else, Muxwell or whatever its name is has inspired me to strive to be a better game designer than him. And to not charge $20 if my product turns out shoddy. It's like this guy's in a gambling debt to the Mob.

 

[veloper]

So, let me get this straight. One asshole releases a shitty product. The fault is his, but the real villain here, the mastermind of madness, the dictator of darkness...Is VALVE! They(or , Steam as they've apparently renamed themselves) are the true blight upon PC gaming! They, as the owners of a gaming store should enforce draconian rules so as not to sully the genepool of the master race!

Why, of course this is so, just the other day I tossed excrement at a Game Shop employee for daring to carry a bad game. It is my duty as a Member of the PC Master Gaming Race after all. We cannot allow free choice...

Shame about you Jim, thought you had some good stuff for a while, but your "STEAM NEEDS TO ANSWER!" stuff is a bit tiresome. Steam is a damn store, the only thing Valve need to answer is refunds and keeping obvious scams gone. But people here seem to want for steam to crash so they can roll around in their own smug filth and go "Told you so! Filthy pleb!"

If crime is high in a city, in order to lower crime do you blame the criminals or the police?

Valve is the police here, if you didn't get the analogy.

Fun! Or maybe the citizens in this case just need to start thinking seriously about locking their front doors.

Citizens deserve some of the blame sure, but allowing the criminals to operate is all on the police here.

But how much of a police state are we willing to put up with, just so the citizens nolonger need to be careful and think for themselves? Do we trust the police enough to arrest potential criminals before they can actually commit the crime?

 

[Thanatos2k]

If crime is high in a city, in order to lower crime do you blame the criminals or the police?

Valve is the police here, if you didn't get the analogy.

I don't agree with this analogy. The community is the police. Not Valve. Valve is just a supplier of police uniforms and badges.

Having said that, the community doesn't have the tools and resources it needs to police. Valve's failure to supply means the community might get it else where or be without. It's not unreasonable to ask Valve to supply what's missing. It's in their best interests to sure the community is supplied with what it needs to police.

No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.

But how much of a police state are we willing to put up with, just so the citizens nolonger need to be careful and think for themselves? Do we trust the police enough to arrest potential criminals before they can actually commit the crime?

You act like Steam is the only way to sell PC games. If Steam throws people out of the city, they can set up shop on the borders and hawk their wares there. Steam should be checking passports at the border instead of just dozing near an open gate.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'll take note that when I can release my first game to first let Jim tell me how shit it is BEFORE I put it on Steam. Second, to skip that whole Early Access crap. Third, not to put it on the market until it is fully functional. Finally, sell it at $5 because I know most people (myself included) wait until a game is $5 or less on Steam.

You're doing it all wrong. You're supposed to release an awful game in beta and run off with the money.

I fear this will be the downfall of steam, happening before they can make the progress they set out to make with SteamOS and the SteamMachines

While I doubt it'll go that far, I do think it's bad of them to create the tools for people to flood their market with shit when they're trying to market the concept of SteamOS and such to us.

Holy shit. That's just sad. Steam really needs to get it's act together or it's not going survive. If stuff like this continues Steam is going to earn itself the reputation of the place where all the shit is and people are going to look elsewhere. ...at least I hope so.

Steam has enough apologists that it will likely coast by. Between that and ZOMFG STEEEEM SALES! I'm pretty sure it will, in the medium run, remain pretty solid. Possibly even in the long run, because Steam has been run in a monopolistic fashion and this is what happens with monopolies. Hell, I've been pointing this out for like five years now. Maybe more.

Also, a scammer saying that everyone who's critizising them is troll, where have I seen this behaviour before? It was with a certain feminist who got a handsome sum of money to do youtube videos that she could have clearly done even without the money.

How...Revisionist. Which isn't really any different from pretending this has always been the state of PC gaming or that it's unique to "open" platforms.

Just pointing out hypocrisy

That you had to manufacture.

Whatever. If not for Steam, that guy could still do the exact same thing on his own website.

Yes, and draw the exact same market, because everyone knows an indie webpage is by default just as well-known, well-trafficked, and well-supported as Steam.

Just saying, the scale and scope might be a huge factor here.

Good god. Ignoring everything else about this piece of crap (the game, not the video, of course), the very thought of even trying to play that on the Rift is making me queasy.

And just think. A good number of people get sick from playing a solid game on OR. This...Yeah. You know those reaction cams they use in horror marketing sometimes?

I think we need those for this.

 

[rofltehcat]

Simple: Now that Valve have pretty much opened the flood gates nearly completely, they need to delay all payments to developers for 7-10 days so they can pay people back their money when something like this happens.
He is pretty obviously abusing every loophole there is on Steam and tbh I'm a bit baffled that Valve haven't pulled the trigger on him and kicked him off Steam. I'm sure there must be a contract clause that lets them boot people out, especially Early Access.

 

[jehk]

No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.

I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.

 

[Thanatos2k]

No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.

I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.

The crime is that people are being sold garbage masquerading as a game. Valve is allowing it to continue. No matter what you or "the community" does the game will continue to be sold unless Valve does something.

Also Valve does have the power to spend your money - they call it the "Summer Sale"

 

[JimB]

First and foremost, thank you, Mr. Sterling, for doing what is in your power to hold people accountable for their behavior despite their shameful attempts to whitewash their own history.

Second, is my hearing at fault, or did you, at 5:32, say you have "screencraps" of the evidence? I can't decide if I think that would be funnier if it was intentional or accidental.

 

[Deadagent]

Spoiler: 0.0 Don't open this. Scary lady Sarkeesian lives in here.

[https://imageshack.com/i/j68lk4j]

xD Opps. My bad that's just the lady who happens to be right behind you.

Spoiler: Here is Anita. Don't open it.

[https://imageshack.com/i/5ii6cjj]

I'm pretty sure that guy didn't read any of what you said to begin with

I did, but his wording was such that it definetly left that possibility there so I asked for clarification

and I find it comical that he somehow looped Sarkeesian into this.

I was only pointing out that Jim is perfectly fine calling out this Muxwell for his scam, but will defend another

He says "it's pc and there is no quality control on an open platform and that's ok" but then goes on about a woman that did a kickstarter to produce videos based on the works she's already started but that is somehow wrong because there's, apparently, quality control on the internet.

I never said that internet has quality control nor did I imply so either. Strawmanning ain't getting you anywhere. Also I am saying that open platforms tend to have more crap on them by default, thats just how it is. Valve specifically want's to open up steam for everyone, and if thats their goal then inevitably they will end up with more crap as well. Now trying to get that crap to sink to the bottom as quickly as possible is another matter entierly. But my point stands, steam dosen't need quality control. At least not traditional quality control

And the kicker is pretending like there was nothing but civil conversations and arguments against her views and then brushes off the hundreds of rape threats and terrible behavior like defacing web pages or calling her a scammer which really isn't the case. I find it shameful that there are people out there that are more offended by her ideas than the fools that threatened her with rape and murder.

I never brushed off the death threats, I fully acknowledged them, you on the other hand brush off everyone critising her as a troll. Civil discussion was happening and I even sent her a perfectly polite e-mail asking about what shes using the money for, unsuprisingly she still hasn't responded. Also death and rape threats are not a rare occurence at all. Anyone with an opinion on the internet has gotten their fair share of hatred, male or female. And yes that includes death and rape threats for men too. Why are you pretending that this is an issue of gender instead of being one of simple disagreement.

Thank you, my tought's exactly

Yes, you got it, Im scared of her. It's not that I think she's a scam artist. I know there's no way you could have known what I meant. Start adressing actual arguments or shut up.

The issue Jim is bringing up isn't simply that there are bad games being put on Steam. It is that the devs doing so are able and sometimes do silence anyone saying something they don't like about their games in the forums.
Some are even putting out fake reviews.

Yeah I can agree that they shouldn't give the devs that much control over the forums

This means that we can't just go by word of mouth and have faith that what people are saying about the game on the site are true.
This is bad because not all people who play games are going on to site like the Escapist and having people like Jim let us know who is trying to lie.

Most people are, and in this case the word of mouth spread fast enough before really big damage could be done. Same happended with guise of the wolf etc.

People for quality control on Steam don't want such because they want Steam to die. They want it so Steam can improve and continue.

I didn't think Jim wanted Steam to die, but calling for Quality control goes directly against opening up the platform wich has been the entire goal for Valve. I dont think throwing greenlight or similar systems out of the window entierly is the solution, Improving it yes. But corporate curated quality control is not the answer. Community managed quality control maybe? An easy way to get a refund? Something like that but not the traditional quality control method definetly.

 

[Shjade]

Whatever. If not for Steam, that guy could still do the exact same thing on his own website. PC gaming is an open platform.

He could, but without a fraction of the exposure he gets by putting it on Steam.

 

[jehk]

No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.

I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.

The crime is that people are being sold garbage masquerading as a game. Valve is allowing it to continue. No matter what you or "the community does" the game will continue to be sold unless Valve does something.

Is it being sold? Gimme some proof. I know you can't answer that. Steam, sadly, doesn't provide sales figures (this would be another tool the community should have access to). Sure, its available for purchase. That does not mean its selling in any meaningful way.

Do you really think the community backlash against this game hasn't affected sales? Do you not consider that power?

Are all of these people [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_considered_the_worst] criminals? A game being shit or garage isn't enough of a qualifier for Valve to get involved.

EDIT: Valve should ensure games are functioning as advertised. If that's all you mean then we are just talking past each other. The community should have the power to determine what's quality.

 

[Thanatos2k]

No, the community is not "the police." The community has zero actual power - they can cry and scream and warn everyone, but they cannot stop the game from being sold or punish those who sell scam games. Only Valve can do that, because Valve is the police.

I didn't know Valve has the power to spend my money.

The crime is that people are being sold garbage masquerading as a game. Valve is allowing it to continue. No matter what you or "the community does" the game will continue to be sold unless Valve does something.

Is it being sold? Gimme some proof. I know you can't answer that. Steam, sadly, doesn't provide sales figures (this would be another tool the community should have access to). Sure, its available for purchase. That does not mean its selling in any meaningful way.

Do you really think the community backlash against this game hasn't affected sales? Do you not consider that power?

Are all off these people [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_considered_the_worst] criminals? A game being shit or garage isn't enough of a qualifier for Valve to get involved.

EDIT: Valve should ensure games are functioning as advertised. If that's all you mean then we are just talking past each other. The community should have the power to determine what's quality.

Jim bought a copy in order to play it, assumedly. It's still available for sale RIGHT NOW on Steam. Sales are greater than 0, thus, money has been scammed. Who cares if word of mouth prevents significant sales - some people scammed is certainly better than lots of people scammed, but people have still been scammed!

If someone shouts out "Hey, this guy running the shell game is cheating!" and he grabs all the cash on the table and makes a break for it, it was still too people many scammed. The optimal number is 0.

 

[Alterego-X]

Whatever. If not for Steam, that guy could still do the exact same thing on his own website. PC gaming is an open platform.

He could, but without a fraction of the exposure he gets by putting it on Steam.

You are missing my point. Maybe right now an unproven game on Steam sells better than one on a personal site, but that's largely because through it's low entry level, Steam has largely devoured the more informal "Minecraft Market" where people would have been looking for such games a few years ago.

If Steam would start using stricter control, the kind of audience that is interested in browsing unproven indie games would just stop browsing safe, predictable Steam, and go back to that more informal market.

The more games there are Steam, the less it is like a Seal of Quality, and the less exposure the badge of "being on Steam" gives to such games.