Jimquisition: Salt Of The Earth - A Steam Fail Story

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Silentpony_v1legacy

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Jun 5, 2013
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Its so strange. I'm on the Steam forums fairly regularly. I try to keep up with greenlight games and the general feel of subsections, but I've never heard of this guy. And this is not the first time Jim has referenced an apparently huge Steam issue that I completely missed. Not knocking Jim, knocking myself. Is there just a 'don't invite that one dude' forum section where like, EVERYTHING, goes on?
I'd have loved to have complained about a bad game but this flew completely over my radar!
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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DrOswald said:
Steam cannot possibly afford moderating every single forum and without moderation forums quickly turn into useless pits of crap.
I was under the impression that Steam is doing quite well, and that Valve is not hurting for money. What are you basing the statement that they "cannot possibly afford" it on? Moderating isn't very expensive, and Valve has lots of money.

It's not that hard if you set up the system properly. In particular, I would make these developers subject to moderation themselves. If they are seen abusing the moderation of their own boards like this guy, then they should be kicked of Steam. I don't know how the system currently works, but it seems that the developers have immunity for their actions in moderating their boards.

Cracking down on the most egregious abusers (on both sides of the moderation picture) makes a big difference, cutting down vastly on the ongoing work that needs to be done.
 

gamegod25

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Rozalia1 said:
I'm really not seeing the issue honestly. As this Muxwell fellow states its early access so regardless of the quality he isn't "scamming" you (though if the concept of early access is in itself a scam is another matter).
His game can be as broken as he wills it, and if you get burned than...just don't be a sucker.

As for deleting "negative feedback" (in quotes as I'm sure he did in fact receive a lot of abuse that would be classed as abuse, not criticism"), well Steam agrees with him on allowing him to have that power. Take it up with them if you don't like it.

People need to understand that some developers simply don't give a toss what you think is correct, just, or good. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes you naive for expecting/demanding they all to be nice guys.
Uh no, that absolutely makes them wrong. That's like saying some people just don't care if stealing or murder is wrong and will do it anyway and it's your fault for getting robbed or murdered.
 

DrOswald

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omnifarious said:
Deadagent said:
So TL;DR of this episode: "Hey, look theres a really shitty early accsess game made by a scamming fucktard. Let's make steam more closed platform, because I was right".
In all fairness, Jim didn't say to make Steam a closed platform. Steam did just fine before Early Access and Green Light were even a thing. In fact, there really isn't much mention of Steam in the video this go around, even though he did elude towards his previous statements in regards to the issue of QC on Steam.

I do agree with you that tossing blame of a broken system is the metaphorical equivalent protesting a grocery store because they received a shipment of rotten meat. With that being said, however, it's difficult to not blame said grocery store if it continued to sell rotten meat, despite the protesters at its doors. And as of me writing this, Steam hasn't pulled Earth: Year 2088 from its storefront, despite everything that's been revealed about the game.
Before Steam Greenlight was a thing one of the biggest complaints leveled against steam was how closed the platform was and how that made it very difficult for aspiring indie developers to break into the market. 2 years ago the discussion was all about how the Steam quality control was locking out perfectly good ideas from the market because some random guy decided the idea was bad. Steam Greenlight and Early Access were created expressly to address these concerns. Let the gaming community decide what will make it onto our storefront.

So no, Steam did not do just fine before Early Access and Greenlight.

And as for why Earth 2066 is still on Steam despite the problems, it was released 4 days ago. 4 days. 2 of those days were weekend days. They probably did not hear about the controversy until today, and they opened for business only 5 hours before your post. Give them some time to actually sort out and assess the problem, to contact the developer to ask what the hell and to get a person to actually play the game themselves and make a determination. These things take time and should take time to avoid mistakes. I would be very disappointed in Steam if they were in the business of making knee jerk removal of games from their store at the first sign of customer complaint.
 

Vivi22

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I get a bit tired of hearing about Steam needing more quality control. Not because I think it would be a bad thing, but because the kind of control people want them to exercise is not only bad for PC gaming, but probably impossible. Having at least some minimum level of quality control on consoles isn't so hard. The hardware is set, it's impossible to release a game on that hardware without the manufacturers okay, and you can thereby make sure that games meet a certain level of quality by insuring they're using your dev kits, meeting certain programming standards, etc. Of course the thing people tend to forget is this is all really just bullshit and these licensing requirements and "quality control," have never stopped shitty games that barely run from being released and frequently only serves to support the failing publishing paradigm in effect right now and bleed small companies dry if they try to navigate them on their own. You can look at Xbox Live Arcade as a fairly obvious case of this model utterly failing to bring in smaller companies. It launched with everyone heralding it as a new way for people to get their games on consoles, and it fizzled and died because the requirements were frequently unclear, certification was incredibly expensive, and they couldn't compete with other distribution platforms that were easier to get one and significantly cheaper.

And all of this without ever even having to point out that there is no hardware standard on the PC, and now Valve is dealing with three different operating systems that games can release on. And christ knows there's enough Linux variants alone to make it impossible for them to quality check every single game. Sorry people, but it will never happen. But for some reason, a small handful of examples of shitty games slipping through the cracks as the system exists right now is enough to have people running for the hills saying the sky is falling. It's not. And it won't.

Because here's where the system needs to go, and where it probably will: user control of content quality. Valve can't police everything. They'll never be able to check out every game that's unreleased, or properly quality test everything out there when it's released, but the community reacts a hell of a lot faster to these things. Give users the power to bring claims against companies. Limit it to a certain number of trusted users and punish those who falsely report if you must. Take the time to investigate pre-release claims, but suspend purchases of released titles until seemingly legitimate claims can be addressed, and if someone does release a game that's a scam, early access or not, cut them off. They can no longer release a title on Steam, and no company which they work with in some sort of management role can do so either. Come down hard on the people who scam the system, but let the users police and gather evidence for this stuff. They will do it faster and better than Valve ever could. Will some get burned by making bad purchases? Probably. But they'll have a recourse. And if you're buying a game sight unseen that you've never heard of before and no one has tried yet you need to be prepared to get burned no matter who made it. That's not being an apologist for a lack of quality control, that's just good old fashioned common sense because no matter how much control is in place some people are going to buy things they don't like. But if they can take action against the people that actually scam others, that counts for a lot. And it goes without saying that anyone who's game is pulled for being a scam should have refunds given to their customers and not be given a dime from the sales.

People who keep going on about a need for quality control on Steam are only half way there. Steam shouldn't be more closed off, it should be as open as possible, but that openness needs to cut both ways. If anyone can get on, then customers need ways to get the bad ones removed quickly and decisively to protect themselves and others. The open system can't just go one way, but just because there are problems now does not mean that we should go the other way in trying to solve them. That's the wrong view to take. We need to be open to trying new pathways to make this stuff happen and recognize that there will be some growing pains along the way. Too many people are too quick to jump straight to "this isn't working so let's go back to doing what consoles do even though that model has been failing them and they're moving away from it now too." Sometimes when given the choice between going forward or turning back, you just have to say fuck it and go left instead.
 

DrOswald

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Aardvaarkman said:
DrOswald said:
Steam cannot possibly afford moderating every single forum and without moderation forums quickly turn into useless pits of crap.
I was under the impression that Steam is doing quite well, and that Valve is not hurting for money. What are you basing the statement that they "cannot possibly afford" it on? Moderating isn't very expensive, and Valve has lots of money.

It's not that hard if you set up the system properly. In particular, I would make these developers subject to moderation themselves. If they are seen abusing the moderation of their own boards like this guy, then they should be kicked of Steam. I don't know how the system currently works, but it seems that the developers have immunity for their actions in moderating their boards.

Cracking down on the most egregious abusers (on both sides of the moderation picture) makes a big difference, cutting down vastly on the ongoing work that needs to be done.
There are more than 3000 games on steam. That is 3000 forums to moderate. How many man hours would be dedicated to this task every single day? Even looking to see if new posts had been made, saying nothing of the content of those posts, would employ several people full time. They would need many employees to do this. And managers for those employees, and a new building for those employees, etc. It would be a massive expense for a very small purpose. Every year enough money to make Half Life 3 would be pissed away on managing forums. All so developers can't delete negative comments about their game, which, as we all know, is completely ineffective anyway and results in a Streisand effect that spreads the news more effectively than negative comments ever could.

When I said "Steam couldn't possibly afford it" I really meant that no company would every be so stupid to piss away such massive sums of money for something so stupid and trivial. It would never be a cost effective use of money.

So I suppose that Steam could afford it, but it would be the dumbest possible thing they could do with their money.
 

Rozalia1

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gamegod25 said:
Rozalia1 said:
I'm really not seeing the issue honestly. As this Muxwell fellow states its early access so regardless of the quality he isn't "scamming" you (though if the concept of early access is in itself a scam is another matter).
His game can be as broken as he wills it, and if you get burned than...just don't be a sucker.

As for deleting "negative feedback" (in quotes as I'm sure he did in fact receive a lot of abuse that would be classed as abuse, not criticism"), well Steam agrees with him on allowing him to have that power. Take it up with them if you don't like it.

People need to understand that some developers simply don't give a toss what you think is correct, just, or good. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes you naive for expecting/demanding they all to be nice guys.
Uh no, that absolutely makes them wrong. That's like saying some people just don't care if stealing or murder is wrong and will do it anyway and it's your fault for getting robbed or murdered.
Did you just compare early access to murder? No its not like murder, or getting mugged in the street, or any such serious thing.

They have no duty to actually put good games on there, so if you buy into it and feel burned...tough, you should have known what to expect. Is the fact its early access hidden from you? No, so its solely your mistake/fault.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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DrOswald said:
So no, Steam did not do just fine before Early Access and Greenlight.
Were they not making profits before Early Access and Greenlight? Have their profits risen noticeably since those initiatives?

Some people wanting more access for Indies to Steam is not the same as Steam doing poorly. I could complain that Steam doesn't give me free magical bunnies that crap gold nuggets, but my complaint wouldn't mean that Steam is doing a bad job, as they never promised to deliver magical bunnies.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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DrOswald said:
There are more than 3000 games on steam. That is 3000 forums to moderate. How many man hours would be dedicated to this task every single day? Even looking to see if new posts had been made, saying nothing of the content of those posts, would employ several people full time.
Why would they need to do that? They wouldn't need to read every post, just investigate posts or users that have been flagged for abuse. Which is only going to be a small percentage in a well-run system.

DrOswald said:
Every year enough money to make Half Life 3 would be pissed away on managing forums.
That seems like an absurd claim. Half Life 3 will cost millions of dollars to develop. Even if moderators had to read every post, as you claim, that would only take a few people - and they wouldn't be getting programmer-level salaries.

DrOswald said:
When I said "Steam couldn't possibly afford it" I really meant that no company would every be so stupid to piss away such massive sums of money for something so stupid and trivial. It would never be a cost effective use of money.
I'd like to see your math on how it would cost "massive amounts of money" - and it wouldn't be "pissed away" - it would be dramatically improving their service, and probably result in a net profit if it attracts more people to Steam because of the well-moderated forums and better chance of seeing proper feedback and evaluation of games.

Getting rid of this crap would certainly raise trust levels, and that trust gets people to open their wallets more readily.

DrOswald said:
So I suppose that Steam could afford it, but it would be the dumbest possible thing they could do with their money.
Why? It's a core part of their business, I don't see how it's so dumb to improve it.
 

Ima Lemming

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Jan 16, 2009
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So this one game recently passed Greenlight, Pier Solar HD? It's a remake of a Genesis game that was released in 2010, and one of the most atrocious experiences [http://www.codiekitty.com/File/PierSolar/index.htm] I've had in recent memory.

Maybe the HD version irons out some of the issues with the original like there only being two enemy formations a dungeon, and changes the ending to something that doesn't render the player's actions completely meaningless, but there's some pretty shady shit going on with this game. As well as a line taken from The Escapist's own Yahtzee (in a JRPG! I think everyone here can see what's especially wrong with that), plot points are lifted from Final Fantasy IV, some characters are modified sprites from SNES games like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy IV and V, and the final boss is heavily inspired by Easytype Zeromus. Maybe that doesn't raise too many alarms, but the developers once called the SNES an "8-bitter in disguise [http://www.codiekitty.com/MOREC/piersolar.htm]."

Oh yeah, and the group is making a couple more games, and a character from one is clearly a modified Witcher emblem [http://www.codiekitty.com/MOREC/aprilfools/aprilfools2014.htm].

These guys might be too small time for Jim to spend a video on, but for fuck's sake Steam, sort yourselves fucking out (see, I can steal from the Escapist too!).
 

gamegod25

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Rozalia1 said:
gamegod25 said:
Rozalia1 said:
I'm really not seeing the issue honestly. As this Muxwell fellow states its early access so regardless of the quality he isn't "scamming" you (though if the concept of early access is in itself a scam is another matter).
His game can be as broken as he wills it, and if you get burned than...just don't be a sucker.

As for deleting "negative feedback" (in quotes as I'm sure he did in fact receive a lot of abuse that would be classed as abuse, not criticism"), well Steam agrees with him on allowing him to have that power. Take it up with them if you don't like it.

People need to understand that some developers simply don't give a toss what you think is correct, just, or good. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes you naive for expecting/demanding they all to be nice guys.
Uh no, that absolutely makes them wrong. That's like saying some people just don't care if stealing or murder is wrong and will do it anyway and it's your fault for getting robbed or murdered.
Did you just compare early access to murder? No its not like murder, or getting mugged in the street, or any such serious thing.

They have no duty to actually put good games on there, so if you buy into it and feel burned...tough, you should have known what to expect. Is the fact its early access hidden from you? No, so its solely your mistake/fault.
You are the same kind of person who says that companies exist to make money as if that absolves them of any responsibility or criticism. Yes there will always be people who abuse the system, take advantage of people, and silence any naysayers...but that doesn't make it right. People like Muxwell give the early access system a bad name and hide behind the "well it's early access" excuse all the while scamming as many people as they can. It's because of them that gamers have to be so diligent, so cautious, so paranoid when it comes to early access when they shouldn't have to be. Jim has already talked about this in great length better than I ever could.

Muxwell is still wrong for putting out crap but Valve is also in the wrong for ALLOWING such horrible excuses for games to pile up on their service like so much feces. Early access or not, there needs to be some quality control.
 

KennardKId5

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May 26, 2011
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Do people not realize that nobody is playing this game? The issue is completely moot. Everybody realizes that this game is a shitstain, and they have enough common sense to not throw money at it. When the game's store page has a grammatical error, people know to stay away. The steam charts report a maximum of three simultaneous players.

And it's easier than ever to figure out if a game is good or not. GOOGLE IT. If the game has any amount of players, somebody will have uploaded gameplay or a review to a site. There's no reason to rely wholly on the Steam forums for info- though I do agree that developers shouldn't have God-Mod powers.

And if nobody has ever made a single review or made a post on a forum about it, DON'T PLAY IT. If nobody in the entire world has played it, why should you be the guinea pig? There are surely better games out there that are cheaper and more fun.

I'm trying to get this point across to Mr. Sterling, Mr. Bain, and everybody else who agrees with them; it's not Steam's fault that you can't think for yourself. Word of mouth still works. By God, check at least one review before you spend your money. Even if Steam implements QC, bad and broken games will still exist. We all need to learn how to make intelligent purchasing decisions.
 

alceste007

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Steam / Valve just simply need to start offering refunds like every other digital service (GoG, Origin, Amazon, etc.). If you dislike the game, you should be able to return said game.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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KennardKId5 said:
When the game's store page has a grammatical error, people know to stay away.
Seriously, you're trusting people on the internet to judge quality by grammar?

I'm convinced that most people on the internet don't even know what grammar is. Even worse, most communication online has such a poor level of grammar and spelling that people are starting to think that it's the proper (or at least cool) way to write. To the extent that "TL;DR" is considered by some a valid response, and "LOL" has become a word that people actually say to each other without irony. I think we're getting pretty close to the world of Idiocracy - where people who speak or write in full sentences are regarded as strange and foreign.
 

Reyold

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I thought I heard Jim say the game was going for $99.99. That would've made this whole thing even more ridiculous.

With all the other examples of this kind of behavior (Guise of the Wolf, Garry's Incident, etc.), you'd think people would start realizing that it just isn't going to end well.
 

TrevHead

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Even if the current open-ended Steam we have is a good thing for devs and gamers, The fact that Valve hasn't stepped in and wrapped Muxwell's knuckles is deplorable.

The old Valve would have removed blatant scams like this from the store front and offered refunds to those who bought the game.
 

omnifarious

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DrOswald said:
Before Steam Greenlight was a thing one of the biggest complaints leveled against steam was how closed the platform was and how that made it very difficult for aspiring indie developers to break into the market. 2 years ago the discussion was all about how the Steam quality control was locking out perfectly good ideas from the market because some random guy decided the idea was bad. Steam Greenlight and Early Access were created expressly to address these concerns. Let the gaming community decide what will make it onto our storefront.

So no, Steam did not do just fine before Early Access and Greenlight.
You do know Valve didn't just make money from indie devs, yes? AAA releases, holiday sales, the very fact that Steam was available on the PS3...the Humble Indie Bundle? Sure, it wasn't nearly as effective as simply opening the floodgates as they did with Greenlight, but to say Steam did not do just fine is also forgetting that indie games were still a growing market. Steam was responsible for an estimated 70% of ALL games distributed on a digital platform several years before Greenlight. If you ask me, I'd say that's no small feat.

And as for why Earth 2066 is still on Steam despite the problems, it was released 4 days ago. 4 days. 2 of those days were weekend days. They probably did not hear about the controversy until today, and they opened for business only 5 hours before your post. Give them some time to actually sort out and assess the problem, to contact the developer to ask what the hell and to get a person to actually play the game themselves and make a determination. These things take time and should take time to avoid mistakes. I would be very disappointed in Steam if they were in the business of making knee jerk removal of games from their store at the first sign of customer complaint.
I'll give you that, it was Easter after all. Day One: Garry's Incident is still on Steam, and the developer went as far as to improperly use the DMCA to hush a bad review. Not to mention Muxwell is already a known scam artist.

Even with that aside, I wasn't really looking for Valve to forcefully tell 2066 to GTFO at the drop of a hat. Valve has fulfilled refunds in the past, so it's not as if they don't ever take any responsibility. There's been quite a few times Valve has acted within days of initial complaints.
 

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
Sep 4, 2010
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Imperator_DK said:
Well, who exactly is buying PC games through digital distribution without doing a quick ~20 second Google search about the title they're about to buy for $20?! A developer who delete negative feedback on one platform will obviously find it multiplying on every other one.

The consumer empowerment this information highway entail renders digital supply side hijinks virtually moot. I for one would rather have an open platform with a sea of shit, if this enables a rare few islands of unusual niche gems to spring forth. It's not like it'll take me long to find out about any PC title which catches my eye[footnote]If I'm on a digital console store, I'll have to boot up my PC though. And if I'm at a physical store, I'll have to whip out my smartphone. Oh, the stress![/footnote].

Shitty shovelware has always been put out there, but never has it been easier to find info on it. While the developer put out an unfinished game - the this being a condition of Early Access - game, no false advertising appear to have been involved.

Bottom line is, if you can spend $20 without spending 20 seconds researching what exactly you're spending it on, then your complaints are hard to take seriously.
KennardKId5 said:
Do people not realize that nobody is playing this game? The issue is completely moot. Everybody realizes that this game is a shitstain, and they have enough common sense to not throw money at it. When the game's store page has a grammatical error, people know to stay away. The steam charts report a maximum of three simultaneous players.

And it's easier than ever to figure out if a game is good or not. GOOGLE IT. If the game has any amount of players, somebody will have uploaded gameplay or a review to a site. There's no reason to rely wholly on the Steam forums for info- though I do agree that developers shouldn't have God-Mod powers.

And if nobody has ever made a single review or made a post on a forum about it, DON'T PLAY IT. If nobody in the entire world has played it, why should you be the guinea pig? There are surely better games out there that are cheaper and more fun.

I'm trying to get this point across to Mr. Sterling, Mr. Bain, and everybody else who agrees with them; it's not Steam's fault that you can't think for yourself. Word of mouth still works. By God, check at least one review before you spend your money. Even if Steam implements QC, bad and broken games will still exist. We all need to learn how to make intelligent purchasing decisions.
I've been spending the last hour trying to focus my anger at these two posts into coherent thoughts. I've been failing because I can't seem to base my arguments around a thesis so this will be long and slightly incoherent. I realize that this puts my respect at a dubious position, but from reading your posts, I'm don't think it would have mattered any way.

Quite simply, you are wrong on everything. Why are you placing all the blame upon the consumer? It is their fault that such a poor game made it on Steam? Oh, so the next time contaminated meat poisons people, be sure to blame the people who bought the meat. After, why didn't they know about the quality of their steak? It is their fault they are incredibly sick. Or better yet: the next time someone causes a mass shooting, blame to victims! After all, they MUST have known how crazy the killer was. Why didn't they stop him/her?

Now, is the above an unnecessary equivalence? Maybe, but hopefully the point I'm trying to make is getting through your skulls: the consumer isn't wrong here. While it certainly may be true that only a few has bought this game, why would the blame be on the consumer if they did buy this? Because they didn't research beyond the Steam Store page, something that you say will take only 20 seconds? Well why should they? Why should people be required to jump through hoops in order to find out if a game is functionally a game? And yeah, it might take you and I a few seconds to see whether or not a game is a scam, but we aren't the average consumer.

The average person is simply going to trust the Steam Store page because that should be good enough. As it should be! The average consumer should not have to know there are sites you need to trust. They should not have to wade through multiple reviews, forums, and discussions just to know if a game is working like a game! Mainly because such crap games SHOULD NOT EVEN BE SOLD IN THE FIRST PLACE! And no, I'm not talking about games I don't like. I'm talking about games that aren't even functional. But no, NO! The "free market" (which, by the way, you should really look towards the history books if you want to see how a truly free market acts) must be kept for the betterment of everyone!

OT: It is stuff like this that shows that Steam does need quality control. If nothing else, make sure that broken games like these gets removed from Steam so it doesn't eat up front page space and wastes the consumer's time.