Jimquisition: The Adblock Episode

[Infernal Lawyer]

I must live in some magical fantasy world where the worst thing an ad would ever do is replay when you restart a buggy Youtube video.

Funny thing is that I have more of an issue of ads on fucking TF2 servers of all things (Forces you to watch an ad, and then crashes IMMEDIATELY after the ad ends) than the amount of trouble people are claiming happen on their browsers.

So I guess it's kind of like the whole piracy debate: For the most part it's wrong, you're denying content creators their well deserved earners. However, when they start pulling bullshit (i.e. broken DRM/ads that crash your system), then things become less black and white, to the point where you're probably in your rights to tell them to piss right off.

 

[Kameburger]

I have a few points to make, but let's get something straight first. You post videos about video games, I watch em. That is the extent of our relationship. What happens backstage - how and where you get your money - is not my concern. Does the Escapist care how I make a living? I don't think so. A content creator's personal/financial problems fall completely outside of the scope of our relationship.

We are not friends, and as a member of the audience, I don't owe online content creators any special treatment. If one of them stops making content tomorrow, I'll just watch something else.

The vast majority of people who use adblock don't do it to spite the content creators. This isn't personal, it's about not wanting to be annoyed with ads. I don't like it when our motivation is misconstrued as ill-will. I also don't like to be guilt-tripped into "inconveniencing myself" for the sake of someone who works online.

I'd rather a content creator just said "I want more money, watch my ads", than try to turn it into an ethical problem.
Adblock users are not doing anything wrong, in spite of how much content creators tend to vilify them. If Jim's employer doesn't want to grant me free access to this website, they can just block me. Seeing that they do not and since I am well within my rights to watch this content, not watch any ads and express any criticism freely on the internet, fuck you right back, Jimbo.

Fact of the matter is I can still criticize your work even though I do not contribute to your paycheck. There is no legitimacy whatsoever to the argument that you should shut up if you don't contribute. If someone is being an asshole to you, you can call them out on being assholes, NOT on the fact that they don't contribute to your paycheck.

Let me explain how advertising works, in case you've been living on another planet thus far: Ads are something people watch if they want to, they aren't mandatory. If your content is good enough, then you might have enough people in the audience watching your ads to make a living off of. Some people might even whitelist your content out of goodwill. It is also your prerogative to plead with your audience to whitelist your stuff, even though they don't HAVE to and would just be doing you a favor if they did. HOWEVER... this does not mean you get to guilt trip/emotionally manipulate people into watching more ads and paint it like you're some fucking moral champion. You are, in fact, a dick if you try to create a divide in your audience by making it seem like the people who watch ads are somehow better human beings than those who don't.

That's all I had to say.

PS: The "terms of service" for this forum are ambiguous as all hell, I presume I can be flagged for being "offensive" to some.

I don't understand your argument here.

Emotional black mail would be if he showed you pictures of his starving children and said here's what happens when you use adblock, and he isn't doing that in the slightest. He goes so painstakingly out of his way to drive the point home that he is not trying to say that its wrong to use adblock, he is simply spelling out how it effects the escapist and himself as well as your part in that equation.

To spell this out for you, If you want to criticize him and not contribute, your opinion is still valuable. If you want to criticize him, not contribute, and be an asshole, then your opinion is valueless (worthless, meaningless, etc).

Most artist and content creators do what they do to interact with their audience, why does it offend you so much when they try to?

Seriously, the way you wrote that post, I almost feel like you're writing to the Make A Wish Foundation, because how dare they appeal to you for donations because those kids will never care about whether or not you're dying.

tl;dr

Calm down!

 

[JaqueAlan]

Well this episode convinced me to finally kill two birds with one stone. (Okay, a large stick.) I'm now an official member of the escapist and have a subscription.

 

[XMark]

What I'm wondering is how much control the Escapist has over the content of the ads? I would assume that The Escapist doesn't want ads to auto-play sound in the background while a video is playing or break page designs or block site navigation, but it happens anyways, and there's likely several degrees of separation between The Escapist and the company at the end of the line that delivers a specific ad.

It seems to be a self-propagating issue. People are blocking ads? Well, the ads need to be more in-your-face and annoying to have more effect on the portion of people who are not blocking them. But then more of those who wouldn't have blocked them before end up blocking them because they're that much more annoying, which means the advertisers have to make their ads more annoying, which means more people block them, which means they have to make them more annoying, which makes more people block them and so on and so forth.

I wonder if an advertising company could make a profitable business out of very strictly serving nothing but simple non-intrusive image-only ads with strict policies against deceptive practices like fake virus warnings. If they stuck to their guns, maybe their ads would be less visible to the public, but almost nobody would feel the need to block them either.

 

[VondeVon]

I had no idea that adblock had an effect at all. Companies can see that their ads *aren't* being seen?

I never click on ads anyway because they've never interested me and/or I'm convinced that doing so will cause viruses to spontaneously manifest themselves on all my computers at once, but I thought that advertisers only *paid* 'per click' in the first place?

 

[jaymiechan]

i run an adblocker, yes. However, i DO Whitelist sites. Even with whitelisting, i am still protected from the malicious bull that people pull because i run a heavily modified HOSTS file that prevents those connections that the bad ads try to cause.

 

[Synthetica]

The thing is: adblock users (just turned off mine btw, thanks for the reminder) don't care. It's both tragedy of the commons and "I don't see the ads, why would I care the ads get worse".

 

[IceForce]

This just seems really paranoid, and chilling to proper discussion. Can you tell us how far up The Escapist's management chain this authorisation of warning for people simply admitting to using ad blockers in this thread went? Who was it that approved the terms of this supposed "armistice"?

I'm wondering that too.

Jim okayed it with a mod, so I'm just wondering where in the chain of command this agreement took place.

Briefly discussed with a moderator yesterday that exceptions would have to be made here. I cannot speak for the admins, but I would like to believe they understand that, in order to comment here, an armistice is gonna be needed.

"Armistice" was an interesting and now sadly appropriate choice of words there, Jim:

armistice
noun
1. an agreement made by opposing sides in a war to stop fighting for a certain time; a truce.

Interesting (but not surprising) that users of the site are seen as enemies in a war. Also not surprising that it seems most of the forum rules are in place to protect advertisers and business interests, rather than to benefit users or provide a higher quality forum.

I'm no lawyer, but I'd say many of the people who have received warnings in this thread probably have a good case for appeal of those warnings.
Especially since people appear to have been misled to an extent.

Anyway, I'm confident Jim can get this all sorted out.

 

[Frozengale]

I had no idea that adblock had an effect at all. Companies can see that their ads *aren't* being seen?

I never click on ads anyway because they've never interested me and/or I'm convinced that doing so will cause viruses to spontaneously manifest themselves on all my computers at once, but I thought that advertisers only *paid* 'per click' in the first place?

I think I may have the answer. Of course I'm not well versed in online marketing so anyone is welcome to jump in and tell me I'm wrong.

If you obtain your ads from an AdFarm like "Ads by Google" or some other 3rd party that basically is an Ad database then you are paid by click. Basically the Ad Database people get paid by a company to host their Ads, and then the Ad Database makes it so that those Ads are easy to obtain for websites. So if you start a website right now, you could sign up to host ad space via someone like "Ads By Google". Since they offer this service relatively free and easy, you aren't paid per view but rather are paid by click. This ensures that it was your site that brought them to the website of whoever wanted the ad in the first place, and are thus paid. Basically you get easy advertising, the downside being you get paid by click.

However, someone like The Escapist doesn't use a 3rd party but rather deals with the companies in a more direct manner. Say some publisher wants to run some ads for the latest Shooter, so they go out and contact high profile gaming websites like The Escapist. They say they want them to run the ad for 2 months. Escapist hosts the ad, and for each view they get a little bit of cash, and for each click they get a little more. Their is probably also an initial cost they get paid upfront for hosting the ad.

That is my highly ill-informed and assumption heavy idea of what is going on.

 

[Veerdin]

What I realised watching this was pretty scary...

I love Jimquisition. Hell, I love this site! I've been coming here ever since Yahtzee moved from Youtube to this site and I don't think I'll ever stop.

I've also been using Adblock for longer than I can remember. And you know what's scary?

I had no damn clue the damage that was potentially doing.

I was vaguely aware of the whole "don't adblock our stuff you dirty content thieves!" fiasco that some people were pulling and frankly I didn't care for it, so I avoided it. I legitimately wasn't aware that by doing this I was essentially saying "I don't support your stuff" to the publishers themselves.

Adblock came with no warnings and I think Jim's the first person whose put this into calm, understanding words (Instead of froth-lined screeches) And because Jim asked nicely, and I quite like Jim and this whole site, I've white-listed it. Something I wasn't actually sure I could do until I tried.

I used adblock because I preferred things how they were when I started using the net, where I could watch a Youtube video without some smuck trying to sell me a fridge for 5 minutes beforehand. That was it, but now I'm gonna' try and find out if it's possible to disable adblock on certain Youtube Channels, cause I'd quite like Markiplier and Game Grumps to keep doing things.

 

[FalloutJack]

Aaand snippity

Well, since I don't use the blocker and I DO get annoyed at the intrusive ads, I'd like to make a request.

You've now made a video which explains the argument of why the ads are necessary, what your feelings on that are, and even where the real blame should be. Why not make one that tackles the issue on the other side, going into detail of the dangers of the intrusive ad at a time where people feel they need the things to make payroll? I feel that a general call to the sites on what works best and what should be avoided in the ad-potpourri that they're cooking up could be very useful. The more people that are informed in places like the Escapist, where people DO want to be here and enjoy the site without much inconvenience, the better.

It couldn't hurt to try, anyhow.

 

[fractal_butterfly]

My problem with Ads is a simple one: they take big chunks out of my monthly download volume. Let me explain: my Internet Service Provider, the only one available for me in the rural area I live in, decided that it would be best for his profits to impose a limit to the amount of downloaded data and make more "download-volume" available for extra pay. After I used up my "highspeed volume", I am slowed to a crawling 384 kbit/s (that is about 50 kbyte/s, hardly enough for emails or browsing, and definitely not enough for the Gigabyte of data I have to synchronize on a daily basis).
Now the thing is, that I need my fast internet for my work, which is programming and creating computer games. At the same time, I am one of these indie game makers (not the successful ones, I am struggeling at the moment), so I need every bit of money I can get or save.
That being said, I have to admit, that I am currently blocking the ads of "The Escapist", since they directly affect the amount of money I have available per month. I am not talking about inconveniences, I am talking about beeing able to pay rent. But Jim is really making a fine argument, so I can no longer watch "The Escapist" with an activated Ad Blocker. I will deactivate it, although I am impeding my work with it and having me cost actual money. But I think this site and your show is worth it.

 

[DigChrono]

I used to block ads on everything, a few months ago I turned it off for Youtube, and now I'm turning it off for the Escapist. I'm actually considering joining the Publisher's Club soon, since I come here so often.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

I wonder if an advertising company could make a profitable business out of very strictly serving nothing but simple non-intrusive image-only ads with strict policies against deceptive practices like fake virus warnings. If they stuck to their guns, maybe their ads would be less visible to the public, but almost nobody would feel the need to block them either.

There are already companies doing exactly that, such as this one: http://decknetwork.net

Although it does help to have the right audience for such a network. The Escapist is probably too much of a broad audience and not a particularly lucrative one for such specifically targeted ads.

I never click on ads anyway because they've never interested me and/or I'm convinced that doing so will cause viruses to spontaneously manifest themselves on all my computers at once, but I thought that advertisers only *paid* 'per click' in the first place?

No, most online advertising these days is sold based on page views, not ad clicks.

 

[TheEvilCheese]

I don't mid banner ads.
I don't mind animated ads.
I don't mind video ads as long as they're proportional to the content they support.
I don't mind the popup video player with ad-surround.
Hell, I don't even mind ads that play sound on mouseover.

When your ad plays sound and is hidden away in the corner, I will leave the site. When your ad breaks the function of the website I will go elsewhere. When there's a 3 minute ad for a 5 minute video you can bet I wont be watching your video next week.

It's just infuriating how bad ads get on certain sites. I was amazed at how bad the Escapist was when my PubClub ran out, but it's certainly not as bad as it used to be for me. It's reached a pretty decent medium. I don't feel any need to adblock here because the ads don't break the content.

 

[Buzzwords]

hmmm.

I've been adblocking the entire internet for as long as i've had firefox. it's been so long that i can't even remember if i installed adblock or if it came by default.

i've honestly never even thought about it. adblock just IS.

this vid has convinced me to whitelist the escapist and probably a few other sites. please don't make me regret it.

 

[Baron Teapot]

Y'know what, Jim? Since you asked so nicely, I'll turn off the ad-block for this site. I don't mind a few ads if it means I get to view your content. It's not that much of an inconvenience.

I mostly have Adblock Plus to avoid the sketchier ads that insist upon downloading executable files. I don't want to choke the life out of anyone's livelihood, but advertising could use some quality control. If ads are unobtrusive and short, I'll watch them; may even click on them. When it's over thirty-seconds of loud, obnoxious noise or awful music, I tend to just close the window immediately and never return.

Jim Sterling: "Send me a dildo or an alien."

Heheh.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Now you're just being needlessly rude. I'd suggest you tread very carefully.

Is that a threat?

I must note that the tone of this comment, and having "License to Ban" beside your avatar seems highly unprofessional, adopts a hostile attitude, and goes against the spirit of community moderation.

Direct quote from Kross:

Just don't say THIS IS AWESOME AND I DO IT

This is the exact quote you quoted in your post.
Kross is saying here: "Don't say that you [use adblock]"

No, he isn't he's saying don't say you use adblock and say it is awesome (i.e: advocating) I was referring to simply admitting to using adblock, without the "it's awesome" part.

You responded with:

[they] were only mentioning that they used Adblock. They were not advocating.

And I responded with a correction to your misunderstanding of the rules, by pointing out that admitting to adblock use is still against the rules (same with advocating, too).

I hope this clears things up.

No, that doesn't clear anything up. I was questioning the exemption that seems to have been placed on people mentioning adblock, but also saying that they whitelist The Escapist. The rules do not saying anything about it being OK to mention adblock if you also say you whitelist. Yet those who say they use it and whitelist are not being warned, even when the content of their post is similar to the other party's, and adds the same amount to the discussion.

The initial post in this thread says that discussion of adblocking is OK if it contributes to the discussion. The criteria listed is related to discussion, not to whether one uses adblock or not. What's certainly not contributing to the discussion is handing out warnings to people of one particular opinion on the topic.

And again, I do understand the rules as written. It's a little insulting that you think I don't, especially when you aren't understanding what I am writing.

None of this clears up why there is a double-standard in this "mentioning adblock" exemption for this thread. And also wondering why there wasn't a clearer explanation of what will be allowed. The note on the first post is extremely vague, where it says it will allow discussion of adblocking, but doesn't say exactly where the line is drawn.

Also, who is responsible for writing/authorising these exemptions?

 

[Magmarock]

To any admins who read this
I understand that admitting or advocating the use of ad-blockers is against the Code of conduct for this website but before you start handing out warnings to either myself or to others please consider that this is a discussion on ad blocking initiated by one of your own members. Thus it is impossible to strictly abide to the code of conduct in a discussion such as this. Jim wants to talk about add blockers so let us talk about it in a civil manner without worrying about breaking any rules.

I have pot a lot of effort into what I posted and stand by it as an insightful and thoughtful post. However, I'm afraid I may have broken a rule or two and I really don't want to get into trouble again.

So please make an exception or take down the video. Because otherwise it's just not fair.
Thanks for your attention.

I loved this video, it said everything that needed to be said.

I'd still like to voice my thoughts on Add-blocking though. For the record I do use it.

I understand how this all works; you post a video, the video has adds in it that pay for it's broadcasting. Just like TV. However, when it comes to adds on the internet, many can be dangerous, inviting malware into your system even on safe websites such as this. Furthermore, unlike the adds you see on TV you have to actually pay for the ones you get on the internet. Whenever you see an add it's using your own broadband to broadcast it to you.

The reason I use ABP is the same reason I suspect many people torrent games instead of buying them. For convince. The more convent it is to buy something the more likely it will be bought. For example I buy most of my games from GOG and avoid Steam.

However when it comes to add block, I remember there was a joke on The Simpsons where Homer said to Bart and Lesa that if they don't watch the TV adbreack they are stealing TV. But here's the thing it was a joke put there by people who make a TV show.

Although I use ABP there are a number of things I'd like to list that I hope will help advertises understand how to do things a little better.

1. Even though I use APB I still see adds on the escapist advertising games and such. APB seems to only affect the adds in the video.

2. many adds such as the ones on live stream for example are intrusive and down right obnoxious, making it impossible to mute the volume so if you're siting there talking to someone on Skype for intense you have to hear that loud and abusive add that you never wanted.

3. many viruses and malware can get into your system through adds and add blocking can help stop that.

4. I welcome anything that reduces my exposure to anything designed to brainwash the way I think, and adds are designed to psychologically manipulate you into spending money you might not otherwise would have spend. Great products don't really need advertising because the reputation alone makes people want to buy them.

However ,if you ever watch Linus Tech tips he does his own advertising in the video so there's no intrusive use of broadband before the video has started. Jim, I think that is a good idea. If you find a product that you generally believe is really good maybe you could persuade the producers of it to fund your show and you could tell us about it in your own voice, by passing the add-block and not coming off as intrusive.

I use ABP because it not only because it reduces my exposure to adds but also gives me a sense of control. my PC, my browser, my add-block. That sort of thing

I'll close of by saying as much as I do enjoy your video, I believe that the advertising structure needs to change, and that won't happen if we bend ourselves for the advertisers. They need to bend over for us.