Jimquisition: The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists

[Fiairflair]

I don't think the under-representation of females in gaming is helped by attacking developers for struggling to overcome the problems with AI.

I also think the criticisms of female representation has left the message of "next time, don't even bother" as it's not really criticism in the sense of "we want more of this, and less of that" or "why can't we have more characters like these".

Agreed. However, neither AI programming issues nor model development issues are inexhaustible excuses. As programming becomes more sophisticated more will be possible. Over time criticisms or this kind will become fairer.

When was the last time you heard PRAISE for a female character in video games? Even looking at a small aspect, any "criticism" fails to be constructive with the agenda of "is this character good or bad". More often bad. We can't talk about how awesome a female character is without a load of people coming in with how awful that female character is.

A review of Tomb Raider from Good Game at the beginning of this month stands out:

With this brilliant re-imagining of Lara, she really is one of the most powerful, relatable, and truly human heroes, irrespective of gender, that I've encountered in a game. This experience manages to be exciting, mature, gritty and well paced. All while showcasing a host of fluid mechanics and animations that bring this gripping story to life almost flawlessly. It's 10 out of 10 from me.
- Stephanie "Hex" Bendixsen. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/stories/s3703900.htm

Males in games frequently have more intricate and complex personalities than their female counterparts.

Really?

The trend I see is of protagonist/player-characters being men and then being "blank slates" or as close to blank slates as possible, for various reasons. It's the supporting characters who very often end up being women and they have a lot to reveal about their character... even have a character arc.

Many shooters do have rather generic protagonists, but it is not quite as straight forward in other genres.
The following are lists of Role Playing and Action/Adventure games that have sold well over the last three years, derived from http://www.vgchartz.com/

Role-playing games:
Dark Souls
Diablo III
Dragon Quest Monsters: Terry's Wonderland 3D (released only in Japan)
Dragon Warrior VII
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, The
Fable III
Fantasy Life
Final Fantasy XIII-2
Guild Wars 2
Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
Mass Effect 3
Monster Hunter Tri
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
Pokemon Black / White
Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Sword Art Online: Infinity Moment
World of Warcraft: Musts of Pandaria

Action and Adventure games:
Animal Crossing: New Leaf
Assassin's Creed III
Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood
Assassin's Creed: Revelations
Batman: Arkham City
Dead Island
DMC
Dragon's Dogma
Dynasty Warriors 8
God of War: Ascension
Grand Theft Auto IV
Hitman: Absolution
inFAMOUS 2
Kinect Star Wars
L.A. Noire
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, The
Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, The
LEGO Batman 2: DC Super Heroes
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
New Super Mario Bros. U
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
One Piece Pirate Musou
Paper Mario: Sticker Star
Professor Layton and the Last Specter
Red Dead Redemption
Resident Evil 6
Saints Row: The Third
Senran Kagura Shinovi Verses: Shoujotachi no Shoumei
Skylanders Giants
Skylanders: Spyro's Adventure
Soul Sacrifice
Tomb Raider (2013)
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception
Uncharted: Golden Abyss
Walking Dead: A Telltale Game Series, The

A trend toward "blank slates" need not prevent us from assessing the extent of female characterisation in games compared to the extent of male characterisation in games. Judging from these lists, my overall impression (for what it is worth) is what I said before. Males in games frequently have more intricate and complex personalities than their female counterparts. This includes supporting characters.

 

[lunam-kardas]

I've been bitching about this crap for years, though not nearly as eloquently as Jim of course. But then again this isn't bitching, he's pointing out a real legitimate problem.

Gotta love how the big guys are all "We can't do THIS to male gamers, that would be weird and wrong!!" all the while completely missing the follow up reply of "But you've been doing it to female gamers for years"

I feel like this is such an untapped market too, I mean... I love games that are all about experiencing new horizons and viewpoints, male oriented stories would be so much more potent if they weren't, for the most part, the only option.

 

[lunam-kardas]

Okay, so I'm confused here.
Some people are saying that female characters shouldn't be prevented from having the same traits as male characters and that traits aren't necessarily gender-specific. Okay, yeah, I get that, makes sense. One guy put it very well, I won't bother paraphrasing him to the word, but basically he said that there isn't any significant difference in how you write a male or a female character.
But then I see someone saying that there are ways of writing women that are 'incorrect', and basically serve only to make a man with tits. Now hang on a second, what?
What the hell kind of sense does that make? And how did we get this split and self-contradictory? Why do these kinds of threads always spiral off into batshit insanity?
Please, answers are appreciated.

I think it may have something to do with the need some people (and even societies themselves) have to put things in clearly defined boxes. They see men and women as two separate groups with established personality types limited to their respective gender and sexuality.


Hilariously enough, one of my best friends is a living breathing example which proves this whole stupid thing completely wrong.

 

[Easton Dark]

The big thing I did not see mentioned was if the gang behind Mass Effect ever bothered to track the trend of people choosing to play the female Shephard?

I think that's data the industry could use.

I saw someone earlier with the quote that 20% of players chose female Shepard.

At least in the third game, I believe.

 

[acosn]

Because all the good data suggests there's no market for it.

These are businesses. They're not going to take a risk unless they feel their backs are to the wall.

Even if women make up ~45% of the demographic for gamers, most won't go for the "core" gaming scene. They play world of warcraft. They play farmville. They play angry birds.



There's no problem here that can't be addresses to the industry as a whole; why are they so afraid of their own shadows? Because they're businesses, that's why.

 

[CC17]

I saw someone earlier with the quote that 20% of players chose female Shepard.

At least in the third game, I believe.

The figure was 18%, and it was for the third game. However, it was only for first playthroughs, so its possible more played as femshep on a second play.

 

[Mosstromo]

The answer to your compulsion question is: Your size.
You are our Big Daddy (although we just call you Mr. Bubbles).

 

[Treblaine]

If my posts are long, perhaps it is because I am putting more effort into thinking about what I am saying?

Brevity would be appreciated though.

You are failing Hanlon's razor because you have assigned malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. You are failing Occam's razor because the simpler explanation, that greed alone is at fault, is "better" than that they are both greedy and sexist. The burden of proof is on you to show that they are actually sexist and not just greedy.

Saying "they are" isn't sufficient evidence.

No I've assigned stupidity. Paranoia is stupidity, it's reacting of something that isn't there, and I don't have to follow Hanlon's Razor.

I certainly don't have to follow Occam's Razor as it's illogical that the simplest explanation is always true as things can so easily get complicated. There is some truth to Hanlon's Razor as people are far more likely to be stupid than deliberately malicious.

The burden of proof is on you to show that they are actually greedy and not just idiots.

I have proof they are clueless on game design (stupid) as they are not game designers, they background is in hedge fund managers and they are telling GAME DESIGNERS how to design games.

I think they are being sexist, but not maliciously sexist, but sexist out of stupidity.

Doing "art by the numbers", you mean like with statistics? Which is part of math? Which is a foundational concept to science?

You never heard of the phrase ?painting by numbers? it's not science. Science it's numbers any more than card reading has predictive powers.

This isn't new. Any thorough study of industry would show that it has always been bumping up against the borders of legality and abuse. Ever heard of child labor? Chemical dumping? Smog?

What's new is justifying it as an imperative, before it was nothing but personal greed of those who collected the profits, now those who take home bonuses after reaching milestones still feel they must push further at all costs.

I don't disagree the publishers are stupid, but I have yet to see one major problem that another industry hasn't already gone through, or is not still struggling with. This snowflake syndrome can't pass soon enough.

Or perhaps you aren't aware that the automotive industry has, after almost 50 years, still not figured out how to advertise to women? When the majority of drivers are (as of 2010) women, and women play a role in the majority of car buying decisions?
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/03/car_ads_for_women_does_the_industry_get_it_all_wrong.single.html

Hey, I didn't say they were exceptionally idiots, I'm just saying they are idiots.

Numbers are absolutes. Science itself relies on absolutes to work. With absolutes you have a "right" and "wrong". Without absolutes, there is no "right" or "wrong", and what becomes "right" and "wrong" is merely a matter of dates.

You aren't being scientific though, not on arbitrary dichotomies like you have made.

Then you're straw-manning. If their inclusion is not vital, their exclusion is also irrelevant.

No straw man, I was pointing out that preference in a loaded choice (like chose Mass Effect shepard gender) isn't the basis of exclusion.

Who is buying art for "artistic integrity"? Art is a form of entertainment. If there is no entertainment, nobody is going to care about the art. How could we change that? It should sound very familiar: education. Teach people how and why to appreciate the art.

Otherwise it's just oppression for the sake of beliefs, and we know how well everyone loves that.

Everyone is. Gears of War is a work of art, very low brow, but still art. Art and entertainment can be one and the same.

If greed is supposed to be the solution, how can greed also be the problem?

I never heard nor accepted that greed for money even was the solution. Games have to be made for money, but ultimately they have to be made also for the sake of making them. Steven Spielberg didn't just want money, he wanted to make Jurassic Park and he wanted to make Schindler's List.

It can't work if greed (greed for more and more money) is the only or even the overriding motivation.

Money matters... but money it's everything.

It's sad because we have the same goals, but you're so busy trying to wage an imaginary crusade

If you tell me again what I am and am not doing again I'll put your on my ignore list as a waste of my time. No replies. No nothing.

that you can't tell friend from foe. Despite using things like "I" and "I believe", somehow I am talking for everyone else? Is it so hard to believe that there can be more than "two sides" in an issue?

I claimed to speak for myself, something you then confirm one sentence later, so where are you wrong? Do I or don't I speak for myself?

I'm not going to reply to any more double-talk. This is either from being too clueless on how you are using words or are using a convenient double standard. I have no more time for either.
It's impossible to discuss this any further with you, you put PAGES into responses but not adequate consideration of what I have said and what you said before.

 

[Treblaine]

For example, I can say a lot about what Alyx Vance would or would not do.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-3gcVICiCs

about 4mins in he talks about Alyx......

also i wanted to spread more campster!

The fact that there is a character there to not like is something distinct from nothing there to Gordon Freeman's character to approve of nor reject.

 

[Treblaine]

Agreed. However, neither AI programming issues nor model development issues are inexhaustible excuses. As programming becomes more sophisticated more will be possible. Over time criticisms or this kind will become fairer.

The problem is how even gaming critics like Jim didn't take into account the inherent limitations of the medium in his rant.

A review of Tomb Raider from Good Game at the beginning of this month stands out:

With this brilliant re-imagining of Lara, she really is one of the most powerful, relatable, and truly human heroes, irrespective of gender, that I've encountered in a game. This experience manages to be exciting, mature, gritty and well paced. All while showcasing a host of fluid mechanics and animations that bring this gripping story to life almost flawlessly. It's 10 out of 10 from me.
- Stephanie "Hex" Bendixsen. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/stories/s3703900.htm

The problem is this doesn't break down aspects of the character, it's just a relatively small piece of approval. Not like how it is in attack where aspects of the character are picked apart in the negative.

The largest volume and passion is in the negative towards female characters but importantly disproportionately against female characters than against male characters. Characters like Nathan Drake are not broken down for pillory as negative force in the industry, in fact I saw a gametrailers bit where they broke down all the little things like liked about Nathan Drake, the half tuck, how he reacts to things... and they gloss over all the negative (and there is a lot to gloss over).

Many shooters do have rather generic protagonists, but it is not quite as straight forward in other genres.
The following are lists of Role Playing and Action/Adventure games that have sold well over the last three years, derived from http://www.vgchartz.com/

Spoiler: Role-playing games

Dark Souls
Diablo III
Dragon Quest Monsters: Terry's Wonderland 3D (released only in Japan)
Dragon Warrior VII
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, The
Fable III
Fantasy Life
Final Fantasy XIII-2
Guild Wars 2
Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
Mass Effect 3
Monster Hunter Tri
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
Pokemon Black / White
Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Sword Art Online: Infinity Moment
World of Warcraft: Musts of Pandaria

Spoiler: Action and Adventure games

Animal Crossing: New Leaf
Assassin's Creed III
Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood
Assassin's Creed: Revelations
Batman: Arkham City
Dead Island
DMC
Dragon's Dogma
Dynasty Warriors 8
God of War: Ascension
Grand Theft Auto IV
Hitman: Absolution
inFAMOUS 2
Kinect Star Wars
L.A. Noire
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, The
Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, The
LEGO Batman 2: DC Super Heroes
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
New Super Mario Bros. U
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
One Piece Pirate Musou
Paper Mario: Sticker Star
Professor Layton and the Last Specter
Red Dead Redemption
Resident Evil 6
Saints Row: The Third
Senran Kagura Shinovi Verses: Shoujotachi no Shoumei
Skylanders Giants
Skylanders: Spyro's Adventure
Soul Sacrifice
Tomb Raider (2013)
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception
Uncharted: Golden Abyss
Walking Dead: A Telltale Game Series, The

A trend toward "blank slates" need not prevent us from assessing the extent of female characterisation in games compared to the extent of male characterisation in games. Judging from these lists, my overall impression (for what it is worth) is what I said before. Males in games frequently have more intricate and complex personalities than their female counterparts. This includes supporting characters.

Hang on a minute, a lot of those are games where you have the option of playing as a woman and/or have very "blank slate" protagonists.

This includes ones where your lead role may have a detailed back story, but it's just the character by their self doesn't characterise. Almost all the characterisation of Shepard is user controlled... but how much of that is false choice to give the mere illusion of player agency and increase immersion.

See it's where both I want and feel there is the greatest need for female lead is in violent-action shooters, not for women but for both male and female gamers its something that must be explored more widely.

And I think it's most important from the attitude to violent-action games that it doesn't become the sole preserve of male machismo.

Tomb Raider is one but I'm torn as I love that you have a woman in an action-violent role but on the other hand Tomb Raider was more of a pure platformer with a low emphasis of violence. Plus it's a god awful cover based shooter.

 

[Treblaine]

Because all the good data suggests there's no market for it.

Precisely what "good" data?

 

[Unia]

You honestly think they dont try to make Samus sexy?

And then theres Other M, which has a number of fan service shots of her in her zero suit.[/quote]

Aargh, my spine groans just from looking at that picture

Back towards the topic: I'd say the complaints about yet another sexism thread come from the fact that Jim is preaching to the choir here - I haven't read ALL 19 pages of responses but I'm betting there aren't too many disagreeing posts.
We're all pretty much agreed that the "guys don't want to play a girl" argument is iffy. How about we send the log of this thread to whoever makes those silly statistics marketing departments swear by.

 

[Dollabillyall]

This is a sexism issue.. in part.
But more it's an organisational issue.
It's all because people let MARKETING have an influence over CREATIVE.
The marketing departments of most any business have slowly been taking a larger and larger role in the actual end product. This is an abomination because marketing is the place where people who WANT to be creative but AREN'T end up. This lack of power for the creative branches of an organisation causes all product to be bland, repetetive and most importantly selling for MARKETING reasons rather than QUALITY reasons. By extension it is the reason we havn't had a real major new creative hit. Most creativity in game development is concentrated at smaller developers who most likely are working on smaller projects and don't have the rigid production structures of a company like EA causing great storytelling and gameplay ideas to get stuck in mediocre games for phones. The result? An industry where all creativity is doomed to be used in inferior product while big budget games will seldom bring anything fresh to the table.

Marketing thinks they know, but they don't. They say "we know the demographic most likely to buy games are fratboys with latent homosexual desires and an agression problem". What they don't realise is that that FACT is due to most games having been marketed to exactly that demographic! If the pseudo-scientific bastards had spent the last 15 years selling games to housewives the steroid-addled freak on the box art would've been as out of place as a mom driving her minivan is right now. Not because there are no business oppertunities but because marketing would be too stupid and scared to tap into them.

It's kind of like how WoW was a stupid move by Blizzard because MMO's are costly to maintain and only attract a handful of basement dwellers. If only those critics had known that there is a basement dweller in each and every one of us just waiting to get his first quest.

 

[Lightknight]

But more it's an organisational issue.
It's all because people let MARKETING have an influence over CREATIVE.

Well, yes and no. Marketing is the one influencing their decisions based on market research, statistics, and all those things. But the reason why it influences the developers is because they enjoy eating and having a stable job. There are some things you cannot do (or your game will be unsellable, such as if it gets a mature rating) and there are things you can do but will harm your bottom line.

So marketing's purpose, aside from informing consumers about your product is knowing what the environment is like for the product being made. Those of us who care about gaming enough to actually come in here and discuss it may be open enough to games from different perspectives but what if there really is a significant mass out there who would hate these kinds of things? Do we then expect producers to pump money into a game that won't make a return on investment?

I personally think the sex of the avatar doesn't matter. I mean, it would detract from some games like God of War unless it's a particularly bulky female (I always giggle a little in movies when a 130 lb girl kicks a 250 lb man through a wall, complete suspension of disbelief), but nowadays games are often about stealth, agile blade use, guns and such so the need for a no-necked meat soldier isn't as necessary for plausible power-fantasy warrior scenarios. Do I feel like more of a badass in such games if my avatar is male? Perhaps, maybe subconsciously. But it doesn't ruin a game or make it unenjoyable if my characters not the beefiest person in the room.

So if marketing is coming back with this kind of research I'd like to see their numbers. If Tomb Raider has taught us nothing it's that female protagonists can be a real asset to the game because guys do like curves. My honest guess is that their numbers are moreso just based on how other games have handled the situation and a lack of good female-led games can really hurt such statistics in dumb ways.

 

[Sir Prize]

Watching this video just shows how poorly publishers think of their target audience, and possibly men in general.

Do they honestly think that men everywhere will feel 'awkard' over a woman kissing a man?
Or is it that they cannot understand people are capable of seprating themselves from fictional characters?

 

[Lightknight]

Watching this video just shows how poorly publishers think of their target audience, and possibly men in general.

Do they honestly think that men everywhere will feel 'awkard' over a woman kissing a man?
Or is it that they cannot understand people are capable of seprating themselves from fictional characters?

Perfect question.

It's my hope that these marketing departments are actually doing some kind of research. If so, I'd love to see the numbers they're getting back that indicate that men watching a female kissing a man on screen screams homoerotic to them.

My guess is that they're drawing on conventional "wisdom" and basing numbers on female led games that already exist. The problem is that there's so few of them (especially if split up by genre) that there's no way they can arrive at a sample size large enough to make such a call. Especially not when any number of games significant enough to consider would have to span a decade or more (unless there are a lot more female-led games in each genre than I'm aware of). So the data wouldn't be relevant to today's gaming.

While we are quick to judge their results (I have an incredibly hard time believing them just like all of you), maybe there actually is a sea of biggoted guys out there who wouldn't buy a game with a female lead that does female things with men. I mean, maybe the lost city of Atlantis actually exists? All we need is data telling us otherwise, until then they're just dumb marketing departments who are scared to let innovation take plase.

I repeat that teenagers playing the original Tomb Raider back in the day would have paid money for code adding a sex scene with her in it. I seem to remember people getting scammed with all manner of viruses while searching for non-existent nude codes.

 

[nitrium oxide]

Considering Square Enix wussed out with both X and XII's male protagonists, I guess I should say it's refreshing to see Lightning on ALL THREE XIII games. I would, but they still wussed out ten years too late.

I presume you also ALWAYS play as a human too? If not, you are not being consistent.
I play whatever I feel like - it is a ROLE playing game after all.

 

[nitrium oxide]

Okay, fuck it!
I always play as a male in character creation RPGs because I like projecting myself into a character.
Next time though, I'm gunna try playing as a woman. MY SENSE OF SELF CAN TAKE IT!

Jim, call me! <3

I presume you also ALWAYS play as a human too? If not, you are not being consistent.
I play whatever I feel like - it is a ROLE playing game after all.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Okay, fuck it!
I always play as a male in character creation RPGs because I like projecting myself into a character.
Next time though, I'm gunna try playing as a woman. MY SENSE OF SELF CAN TAKE IT!

Jim, call me! <3

I presume you also ALWAYS play as a human too? If not, you are not being consistent.
I play whatever I feel like - it is a ROLE playing game after all.

Are those 2 things definitly equivalent though? I'm not convinced that they are, I know that they're not in my head.

He is also playing as what he feels like playing as(why else would he select what he does?), it's just that he feels like playing as a male character.

It's really ok. Nobody need judge him for it.

 

[SAMAS]

You honestly think they dont try to make Samus sexy?

And then theres Other M, which has a number of fan service shots of her in her zero suit.

Aargh, my spine groans just from looking at that picture [/quote]

Never see a contortionist or a ballet dancer. Your backbone may commit suicide.

Honestly, I don't care about the sexiness of a character, male or female, in an of itself. The fact that a character is going to be at least a little attractive by conventional standards is pretty much a given across all media (except literature, which can get away with it (but then gets hit in the adaptations)). As long as it's not absurdly blatant, at least.

What I want is for them to be characters on top of that.