Jimquisition: The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

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CaitSeith

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theApoc said:
It was never just a gaming console, they never said it was, they never wanted it to be. It, like the 360 before it, is best described as a multi-media hub. It has replaced every other device in my living room for nearly 2 years now, and yes I do actually play games as well. Changing business strategy is a part of the industry. Did they screw up in presenting the device? Ayup. Was that some plot to screw the consumer, nope.
Pretty much of the things they proposed (and backpedaled) were counter-intuitive for the gaming consumers, and the target audience for "non-gaming gaming" consoles is still pretty small. It's like trying to sell ice cream in December on the streets of New York. Not the right place, not the right time, defenitely not the right product.
 

Something Amyss

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theApoc said:
[

They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them.
That's completely out of sync with the results, sorry. They didn't cater to the consumers.

They ignored the fickle gaming community and got bashed for it.
Apparently, that's the market they need, since the Xbone was getting hammered otherwise. Which still makes what they did stupid.


It actually is a software thing, which is getting better all of the time. The kinect is an amazing device when considering how cheap it is to make. LOTS of researchers are using the device for some pretty crazy things, none of which have anything to do with gaming. MS should double down on it as a peripheral and ignore it in terms of gaming.
You do understand part of why they do those amazing things is that it's not tied to an Xbone, right? And that they were doing it with the weaker Kinect that wasn't forcibly included in the 360 setup? And that the applications aren't in-line with its purpose as-is? I'm not sure how that helps the argument, since they haven't integrated it in the way you were claiming. Other people actually found reasons to use it, and that's great. A shame Microsoft couldn't do the same.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
And I said largely, so you're not even really arguing here. Gaming is still a huge reason people buy it. Or don't buy it, as the case may be. Now, if you want to pretend otherwise, that would at least be stating something contrary. But to point out that it's an "entertainment hub" is meaningless.

Either that, or the rest of the market just doesn't freaking want it. Take it however you want.

Gamers don't want it, and only gamers thinks PS4 is "winning" any more than Wii won last time. Units sold are great, but usage, something that has been growing dramatically for MS and XBLA, well that is something else altogether. "Eaten alive" that's funny...
Yeah, how absurd to think that being outstripped in sales, and forced to scale back nearly everything you claimed was integral to your vision counts as something bad. Again, you're not speaking in terms congruous with reality. I'm also not sure what's funny, unless you're agreeing with me that it's hilarious watching Microsoft completely backtrack on, well...everything. But I'm pretty sure you're not, so...what's so funny about Microsoft being forced to tuck tail because consumers don't give a crap?

These are not the actions of a company succeeding with the market they were courting.

And you know who realized this? MS.
You're contradicting yourself again.

Which is why XBOX ONE was not designed to be a super gaming rig with 3k worth of parts inside.
Since nobody's talking about anything that extreme a case, that sounds an awful lot like a strawman argument.

If people want 8k graphics, guess what, they will do that on a PC.
Come now, Microsoft is struggling to get 1080. And they were the ones promoting shiny new graphics. Which should hurt your argument more than help it.

Fruit Ninja need next gen? Fez? Peggle? Because those are the things that a lot of average people are playing, just like they are using netflx, hulu, youtube, redbox, etc.
Then an Xbone should sell well and not be dwarfed by the competition to the point that they're forced to backtrack on almost everything they claimed was integral.

Since that didn't happen....

But you're also stuck with the unfortunate fact that this isn't a new idea or unique to Microsoft, as both Microsoft and Sony made consoles designed as media hubs last gen

Um, no. The built a device that was right in line with what people were ready to have in their living room.
Evidently not.

Yup it plays games, and it does it just as well as PS4, anyone who tell you differently is to nerdy to matter.
Hmm...Insulting people who disagree with you is probably a poor way to get things done.

But even still, if the nerds didn't matter, then Microsoft wouldn't have reversed course as it has.
 

theApoc

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Zachary Amaranth said:
theApoc said:
[

They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them.
That's completely out of sync with the results, sorry. They didn't cater to the consumers.
The results according to who? Game reviewers? "Industry" analysts? From a purely business standpoint, neither console is lighting the world on fire, and that would be because "next-gen" was not as impressive as it was made out to be, and developers were not ready to stop what they were doing for last gen. The whole console war thing is nonsense. They will ultimately sell roughly the same amount, just like the last time. All of this "MS is screwed" hype is nonsense.

They ignored the fickle gaming community and got bashed for it.
Apparently, that's the market they need, since the Xbone was getting hammered otherwise. Which still makes what they did stupid.
Not really. The only thing they need, the same thing the PS4 needs BTW, is a better catalog of games, then the gaming community will go back to their basements and stare blankly into their screens as usual.


It actually is a software thing, which is getting better all of the time. The kinect is an amazing device when considering how cheap it is to make. LOTS of researchers are using the device for some pretty crazy things, none of which have anything to do with gaming. MS should double down on it as a peripheral and ignore it in terms of gaming.
You do understand part of why they do those amazing things is that it's not tied to an Xbone, right? And that they were doing it with the weaker Kinect that wasn't forcibly included in the 360 setup? And that the applications aren't in-line with its purpose as-is? I'm not sure how that helps the argument, since they haven't integrated it in the way you were claiming. Other people actually found reasons to use it, and that's great. A shame Microsoft couldn't do the same.
No one forced anyone to do anything. In 6 months you will be able to get a Kinect and system for the price of the kinectless system now. People who wanted to be first in line, payed for it. And lets be honest here, the kinect is not "useless", it actually is quite awesome for multi-media, so acting like it is a lead weight in the box makes no sense. Regardless, it is the IDEA behind the kinect that is important, not the device itself. And that idea, well, it is here to stay.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
And I said largely, so you're not even really arguing here. Gaming is still a huge reason people buy it. Or don't buy it, as the case may be. Now, if you want to pretend otherwise, that would at least be stating something contrary. But to point out that it's an "entertainment hub" is meaningless.

Either that, or the rest of the market just doesn't freaking want it. Take it however you want.
The claim is that they lied about the intentions. They didn't. The lack of games has hurt BOTH consoles. Why? Because most people who are going to upgrade, are going to do so for games. The media stuff, works just fine on last gen. The point? It is far too early to tell what the market is for the new devices. Gaming is a huge reason people UPGRADE, not why they buy a console. PS3 got a lot of sales from being a blu-ray player. XBOX 360 got a lot of sales for XBLA and the inter connectivity to inline services. I don't need to UPGRADE because the games I play were last gen only. The fact that BOTH companies didn't have backwards comparability has also hurt them. See, you can make the flimsy "MS sucks and will fail" argument all you like. The reality, is much more straightforward and has nothing to do with the nonsense spouted by Jim.

Gamers don't want it, and only gamers thinks PS4 is "winning" any more than Wii won last time. Units sold are great, but usage, something that has been growing dramatically for MS and XBLA, well that is something else altogether. "Eaten alive" that's funny...
Yeah, how absurd to think that being outstripped in sales, and forced to scale back nearly everything you claimed was integral to your vision counts as something bad. Again, you're not speaking in terms congruous with reality. I'm also not sure what's funny, unless you're agreeing with me that it's hilarious watching Microsoft completely backtrack on, well...everything. But I'm pretty sure you're not, so...what's so funny about Microsoft being forced to tuck tail because consumers don't give a crap?

These are not the actions of a company succeeding with the market they were courting.
See above. Nothing you just said holds any water.


Which is why XBOX ONE was not designed to be a super gaming rig with 3k worth of parts inside.
Since nobody's talking about anything that extreme a case, that sounds an awful lot like a strawman argument.
Way to miss the point. Current gen consoles are never going to be able to compete with PC's from a hardware standpoint. Which is why neither one of them tried to do that. They used the most cost effective materials to incrementally upgrade the gaming aspect. Both ultimately want to go in the direction of a service as opposed to a box. They want to be able to deliver the latest content and not be dependent on hardware. You know what hasn't lagged behind? XBLA and PSN. Both have expanded and continue to do so, and do you know why? Because they are not hardware dependent. Neither company is worried about games, they want subscribers. And MS is doing just fine in that department. Games get the boxes into homes, media content makes the boxes part of the household. Short sighted gamers don't see this, doesn't change the fact that it is real.


Fruit Ninja need next gen? Fez? Peggle? Because those are the things that a lot of average people are playing, just like they are using netflx, hulu, youtube, redbox, etc.
Then an Xbone should sell well and not be dwarfed by the competition to the point that they're forced to backtrack on almost everything they claimed was integral.

Since that didn't happen....
They changed two things about the device. No constant connection and kinect is optional. The overall impact of both things is minimal.

But you're also stuck with the unfortunate fact that this isn't a new idea or unique to Microsoft, as both Microsoft and Sony made consoles designed as media hubs last gen
Wrong. Sony tacked that crap on after the fact and is not even close to offering the same level of service as XBLA. MS XBLA usage DOUBLED in the two years prior to XBOX ONE. They know exactly what they are doing and who their audience is... As support for 360 fades, XBOX ONE will grow accordingly.


Yup it plays games, and it does it just as well as PS4, anyone who tell you differently is to nerdy to matter.
Hmm...Insulting people who disagree with you is probably a poor way to get things done.

But even still, if the nerds didn't matter, then Microsoft wouldn't have reversed course as it has.
I didn't insult anyone. No one who matters gives a crap about any of this stuff. The minute differences in performance between to already outdated machines. Are you kidding me?
 

hydrolythe

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Knarral said:
hydrolythe said:
Knarral said:
The Great JT said:
cyvaris said:
The Great JT said:
Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
Considering Mass Effect:The Next One will also release on PC (and Sunset Overdrive is rumored to as well) there is really no reason to buy an Xbone. Even if SO doesn't come to PC, it's not worth buying the Xbone.
My computer isn't very good...I am shamed.
Why spend $400 on an Xbone when you can spend that $400 on PC hardware so you have a better PC? I mean, a decent "above modern console grade" PC is about $700 give or take, and from then on it's just upgrading what you already have one piece at a time whenever you feel like you have the cash to spend on it. And Steam sales means, if you wait to buy games until they're on sale, you spend WAAAAAAAAAAY less on games.
Because on a console developers exactly know how far they can go in terms of graphical capabilities. They can see the limitations of a console and use them as their own. For the PC there are way too many graphic cards on the market and developers will just have a hard time figuring out how developed the PC will be for the average consumer base.

The above is the reason why there are so many games on consoles that never see their transition to PC. I could understand that games that do not rely on graphics did only have the PC to reside in, but with Sony and Microsoft's new policies to get indie developers quicker working for them on colsoles that advantage minimizes over time.

And yes, there is steam, but it just keeps getting less and less relevant over time, due to the fact that lots of games on steam are never played.

Secondly, ever tried to purchase games on last-gen consoles? You can get a last-gen console for like 150$ and most of the games only cost around 15$ (and if you are already happy with primitive graphics, check out the games for even older consoles, most consoles cost around 40$ and their games around 5$). Steam has nothing on this.
1. No they don't. See: Every single 30 fps game on Xbone and PS4 ever. They have no idea how shiny they can make it without tanking the hardware. I'm not even talking about how it's only 30 fps, I'm talking about how frequently it dips BELOW that. Also, developers up to now haven't had too difficult a time optimizing for the PC, so I really don't see your point.

2. There aren't many games that are on consoles that aren't on PC. The ones that aren't are not on PC for other reasons. Like the first party devs being assholes.

3. We're not talking about last gen machines, we're talking about current gen machines. I don't give a fuck about an xbox 360, it's a 10 year old piece of junk. If we want to go back to before last gen, the PC has emulators. For free. Yeah, I don't care that the gamecube is $25 at your local gamestop and Super Mario Sunshine is $2.25 on sale, I can just download dolphin emulator and play it on my PC for free (albeit the legality of doing so is slightly questionable, though literally nobody in the entire world gives a fuck), using a dualshock 4 instead of a gamecube controller, AND it'll run at 1080p if I decide I want it to.

Also, what do you mean most games on steam are never played? You mean all of that shit that somehow manages to find its way on steam? No, nobody is playing that. All that means is its harder for indie devs, and while I'd love some quality control on steam, that's an entirely different subject for debate. That doesn't make steam any less relevant, considering the sheer amount of people who use it. There are still steam sales where most games are heavily discounted. Also, GoG and Humble are things.
1: As a game developer it takes time and research to understand at what graphical capabilities the PC of the average will be. That takes lots of time and effort. On a console, all you need to do is talk with the man behind it what the graphical capabilities of the console are and what game engines are the most suited for the console. Now it suddenly becomes a cheap and easy task, doesn't it?

2: Yeah, Japanese third-party devs are trolls, but I think that it is more due to the fact that PC gaming is a niche in Japan (90% of all Japanese PC games are Visual Novels, notable for cheap and easy production). No wonder that many Japanese games are console and handheld exclusive.
 

theApoc

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Blue Ranger said:
And again you miss the whole point. Microsoft may not be the only company making consoles, but they are the only company making the Xbox. Microsoft also pretty much said that they couldn't do an Xbox without Kinect. Yet they still did. Again you contradict yourself.

Yes, they were only making ONE console. That is, until they finally decided to give us a cheaper choice. No, people didn't actually know they would release options like this. Their only choice was the Xbox One WITH a Kinect. So yes, they were kind of forcing it on people who wanted an Xbox but not the Kinect. There was also no guarantee that Microsoft would eventually release a system without the Kinect, even though you love to assume that is the case.

Sure, people could have bought the Xbox One with Kinect and simply not used the Kinect, but then that would be a waste of money. That's why people wanted one without Kinect and Microsoft finally caved only because they were getting owned by Sony in sales.
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional. It was designed to use voice commands, facial recognition, etc. An HDTV is designed to display hi resolution content, that doesn't mean it won't play standard def content, just that the standard def stuff won't look as good when blown up to a larger size. You can use XBOX ONE without kinect, but their intended vision of alternate control mechanisms, won't work. Regardless of how good or bad the kinect may be, their intent was innovation, not some anti-consumer crap. THAT is the point.
 

CaitSeith

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I think Harmonix would had embraced the Kinect even if it had been announced as an optional accessory from day one. They have made the best Kinect games (because they actually work) in the past generation. And even before that, they made great games that required slightly more interaction than just pressing buttons and triggers in a controller: Rock Band.
 

Dragonbums

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Blue Ranger said:
theApoc said:
Blue Ranger said:
Oh, look, it's one of these guys who doesn't have one god damned clue about anything. There is nothing about these features that you mentioned that required an always online internet, contrary to what you want to believe.

Also, these "alternate control peripherals" are still there. People can still get a Kinect if they want. However, having an alternative control method doesn't mean it should be a requirement and the only control method. Think about that before speaking.
You are pretty sure of yourself for being completely wrong. I applaud you for that.

Always online is required if you want it to happen automatically and to be as unobtrusive as possible. Every internet connected device I have is "always on-line" you know why? Because it is more convenient that way. Claiming that there was some MS conspiracy to screw the customer by wanting constant connectivity is silly. It makes it easy for them to keep the machine up to date, to deliver content when the device is not in use, and to diagnose issues. Just like any other internet connected PC.

Does the kinect need to be used to operate the XBOX one? I mean is it the only way to control the thing, or to play games? Complaining about them charging for an included peripheral is plain silly. Hey, when I bought my TV, I didn't need 4 HDMI ports or a USB port for playing music and pictures, do you think Smasung was trying to screw me by adding those in and charging more than some other brands?

You truly are clueless. Must be boring in summer school.
Good job in proving to all of us you have no god damned clue what you are talking about. Nothing you said was factual. Just a load of garbage.

Everything you said is so god damned stupid and out of touch with reality. Nothing you said has convinced any of us that Xbox One NEEDS to be always online. In fact, these features you keep mentioning are already here, on systems that don't require a constant internet connection. So where is this convenience you keep talking about?

Kinect is the only way to control and use your system? Really? Did you forget about the actual xbox controller? Of course you did, because you aren't using your brain. Your HDMI example just proves you need to shut the hell up and actually educate yourself. That isn't even a proper analogy, considering HDMI port are required to access high definition. Not to mention, Samsung isn't the only company making TVs. Nice try, buddy.
Look man you really need to cool your jets. Your really walking a thin line here with the insults and bad attitude. Take a deep breath and step back from this thread. It's foolish to get warning and suspended over an Xbone thread.
 

Spaceman Spiff

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Good video, Jim. That is one of the reasons why, even after they flip-flopped on their controversial "features", I still won't buy an XBone180. The other reason being that I don't care for their intended "future of gaming": the camera, the all-in-one media box, sports, skype, television, lack of game sharing, and having to check in online for permission to play games I would have already owned.
 

CaitSeith

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theApoc said:
They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them.
They catered to them because they were going to lose them. Sorry, but in the gaming industry, risk is inversly proportional to inovation. And it doesn't matter how much you rationalize it, Xbox is a game console brand name and is bought mainly by gamers for playing games (for multimedia entertainment, non-gamers usually buy home theaters). Include a new feature on it? Maybe it could work. Include something unwanted at expense of the main purpose and for more money? Really risky (specially if the rival does it better or cheaper)
 

SeventhSigil

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theApoc said:
Okay, looking at your posts throughout the thread, there are a couple of consistent points you bring forth that seem to be missing something.

1) You've said a few times that Microsoft was not, and at no point was ever, forcing consumers to purchase the Xbox One as it was originally advanced. Whether it was with the old digital policies, or with the Kinect as an attached peripheral; you pointed out that people had the option, always had the option, simply not to buy it, or to instead buy the competitor's product. You outright said that disliking a direction the company has taken is not the same as 'being forced to endure some draconian policy.'

I actually agree with you. Completely, a hundred percent; while it could be argued that using something like Halo as a lure for less popular features isn't going to be a beloved move, especially around the hardcore Halo fans who dislike Kinect, at no point was Microsoft forcing anyone to buy the Xbox One. Besides which, using exclusive franchises as a selling point is par for the course anyway, so it all but cancels itself out. All consumers, be they gamers or otherwise, had the option to vote with their wallets and simply not hand over their money. So on that note, you and I are most certainly on the same page; it was always the decision of the customer whether to buy it or not.

However. What you should know- and perhaps I've simply misinterpreted what you've been saying- is that even though Microsoft isn't forcing the consumers to purchase their device 'as is,' it is still their primary goal to get the machine into as many houses as possible, for obvious reasons. That, above all else, is their aim, and they will do anything necessary to accomplish it. They initially believed that they could accomplish this primary goal with the original vision- advancing the idea of a futuristic, unique console that would completely set it apart from the competition and, by extension, cause it to radically outsell the 'Same Old, Same Old' machine that Sony was advancing. They also believed that by 'broadening the audience,' and trying to reach non-gamers, they would expand their market, and radically expand their sales.

And, to be fair, it did indeed set them apart from the competition... only not in a positive way. Instead of being viewed as a device that was desirable and advanced, it was viewed as restrictive, and ultimately being handled by a marketing staff that was fumbling the ball at every opportunity and displaying Sony-PS3 levels of arrogance. But again! At no time was Microsoft forcing anyone to purchase it; but because they weren't forcing anyone to purchase it... well, they found out that not many people were purchasing it. And, once again, what's Microsoft's primary goal?

Microsoft does, yes, have the right to say 'Our Way Or The Highway.' But when enough people start saying; 'Well, Highway It Is!' then the company faces a choice; first, they can either stick to their guns, and try to wait out the market in the hopes that, sooner or later, things will swing back in their favor because their product is so darned awesome. Sony did that with the PS3 in the early days, ignoring warning signs on the Internet, figuring that their device would be so gosh darned wonderful that, sooner or later, people would come to see things their way. This decision pretty much obliterated them in the U.S, because by the time Sony finally gave up their game of Chicken and started their own backpeddles and consumer-coaxing initiatives like PS Plus, Microsoft had gained so much of a lead they were pretty much unstoppable, and continued to hold that lead even after Xbox 360 exclusives were barely trickling out, and almost no Non-Kinect, non-Halo/Forza/Gears/Fable exclusives were being released in over three years.

Microsoft did say it's a marathon, not a sprint, and that's true. However, Microsoft wasn't expecting to be behind at all. This wasn't some master plan, 'Oh, we'll fall behind the PS4 for three years, and after that, BAM. Domination.' They were expecting, from the get-go, far more sales than they've gotten up-to-date, and when they realized they were losing ground, they decided that what they were doing just flat-out wouldn't work.

In conclusion; people have a choice on whether or not to buy something. Lotsa people didn't buy it. That's why Microsoft's changing it. Same as Sony in the PS3 days.

---

2) You've advanced the idea that Microsoft's focus, their vision, was to appeal as an entertainment hub, not simply as a game console. I swear to God, we must have had this discussion before, because you seem familiar, but even if we did, let me reiterate, The Xbox One's chances of succeeding as a game console are far greater than its chances of succeeding as a multimedia device. There are simply too many 'Pure-Blooded' devices, entertainment gizmos that range from being half the price, to one quarter the price of even the Kinectless SKU, for Microsoft to gain any traction in the wider market, and that was their miscalculation. They might have come in 'too early' for an Online-Focused Console, but they came in far too late to release a 'Media Box,' especially one so hilariously overpriced.

Now, If Microsoft released, say, a Kinect camera and enough hardware to handle video streaming and multimedia, maybe even simple indie games, (but none of the big blockbusters like Halo, or whatever, I mean like Ouya-level stuff,) and priced it very competitively, (Say 150, 200 dollars maximum, ideally just 100,) then I can see that device decently doing well in the non-Hardcore-gaming market. That would truly be 'catering to consumers.' The Kinect, the One Guide, they are worthwhile features, and I do think that they could draw in a non-gaming audience. (Although, in your case, I guess it would just be the Kinect, since you mentioned you cut cable.)

But the price. The price. It's a massive ball-and-chain around their ankle, and pretty much guarantees they will get viciously outsold by less feature-rich, but far more affordable, entertainment devices. Beyond Kinect and One Guide, the only real feature the Xbox One has over those FAR cheaper competitors is that it can play big, fancy games, and only gamers are going to care about that.

So, really, the Xbox One SHOULD focus on being a gaming device, because that's the only battle they might actually be able to win.

---

3) Finally, this idea that 'the hardcore gamer's opinion doesn't matter' is, frankly, ludicrous. When it comes to products, especially games or consoles, the most powerful force in advertisement is word-of-mouth, because you are significantly more likely to listen to a friend saying 'You should try this' than television commercial number 204 saying 'You should try this.' All the flashy television commercials in the world can't make a difference if it's not mingled with positive word-of-mouth, with enough regular consumers- which, in this case, would be gamers because why would anyone else have paid attention to the Xbox One before its release day- telling friends and relatives 'This thing is awesome.' On the flip side, one of the most destructive forces to a product's success is when a large enough group of people- and God knows there was a large enough group- decide that a product sucks Donkey Balls, for whatever reason. Because if someone either really really likes, or really really dislikes a product, you can bet your bottom dollar that they're going to express their opinion to everyone they know.

It's like going to a restaurant a few times, finding the food disgusting every single time, and when your friend asks you 'Hey, how about that place you went to last week?' you answer 'Bleeegh.' Chances are good, regardless of how fancy the banner is out front, your friend won't be going because he heard from you that it wasn't worth it.

The Internet has only magnified the power of word-of-mouth, allowing it to stretch across the entire globe, which is why sometimes companies have been caught paying people just to say positive and/or negative things about a certain product online. Enough people doing it, it makes a significant difference.

Just look at what happened! Many Unimportant Gamers hated the PS3, and the PS3 fell into third place, getting outsold what, 30 months STRAIGHT in the U.S., even in the later half of the generation? It was only able to achieve a Global second because of its dominance in Europe and Japan. Many Unimportant Gamers hated the Xbox One, and it's getting outsold by the PS4 in almost every single market, including its strongholds, and in recent months having trouble even outselling the Wii U globally, while the PS4, which plenty of the same Unimportant Gamers deemed the superior product, has catapaulted to first, DESPITE not having many titles on it; it's been propelled by hype and word-of-mouth alone. Heck, Many Unimportant Gamers didn't see the point of the WiiU in the first year, and it sold terribly! Companies don't simply need the individual sales of hardcore gamers, they need- they crave- the positive word-of-mouth that gets more units into the hands of gamers' less-researched friends and associates.

You might disagree with the opinions of gamers, fine, but if the voices decrying your product as shite outweigh the voices saying it's spun gold... don't expect to sell well.


((By the way, I know what you might say; 'But what about the Wii?! That's in first, hardcore gamers weren't all fans of that!' But before you forget, the Wii had a price advantage over its competitors, (which the Xbox One does not,) had an existing Nintendo-loving user base who spread positive word of mouth, (which for the Xbox One would only help in the gaming market, not help it in the wider entertainment market) and was designed to cater to a casual GAMING audience, not a casual entertainment audience.))
 

SeventhSigil

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CaitSeith said:
Nytr8 said:
For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik.
hydrolythe said:
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).

They were wrong. Most non-gamers didn't show any interest in the console, and the "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions" did what any "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining" consumer would do: they looked for an option with their rival company. I just imagine how pale their faces must have gone when Sony made their "How to share a PS4 game" sketch.

A hundred thousand percent this. Any product being released carries with it risk; you take something you think is going to do very, very well, (in this case being the previous Xbox dominance in the U.S., and their line of exclusive titles,) and pair it up with things that you, as a corporation, want to do well (some feature or attachment, like the Kinect) but are concerned won't be well-received, or won't succeed on its own if made optional. Sometimes, you succeed; Microsoft took a gamble on charging to pay for online multiplayer last generation, and the exclusives they released were more than enough to make that gamble pay off, giving them a lucrative secondary source of income. They took a gamble on sticking loads of advertisements in the layout later on in the 7th generation and, again, it paid off and they gained yet another lucrative stream of revenue. Any company, Sony, Microsoft, even Nintendo, will use existing influence and popular features to try and advance untested, or unpopular ones. Stricter paywall, unfriendly indie policies, all of these were things that paid off, because the positives outweighed them.

Sometimes, though, these gambles don't pay off; a feature list, or mandatory peripheral, or correspondingly higher price, gain so much scorn and dislike that it drags down the entire product. The Xbox One's higher price point, the Kinect that plenty of people didn't want, and other bumps in the road gutted their sales potential. At the same time, many indie developers finally had had enough, and Microsoft had to rework their indie policies to keep from missing out on titles that would be going to the PS4 instead.

Microsoft, like many, many other companies, took a gamble. The gamble failed. They are now scrabbling to get back on safe ground, and just like any other company that takes a failed gamble, they're going to be feeling fire singe their arse the entire way back.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.
Well, I could dismiss that as anecdotal evidence, but since you're lacking perspective doing so would accomplish little.

So...Always Online.

First, I recognize that some media requires an internet connection. Fine, sometimes that's just the nature of the beast.
But the problem with unilaterally praising always online is that always online is just as much a limitation of a system as it is a benefit. Its dependency on the net makes it as good as one's net connection.

Since internet service can vary GREATLY (even in the primary game markets), you can't logically pitch Always Online as if it were a strictly good thing.

Second, there's the bloody obvious: When a device (or form of media) is reliant on something when it doesn't have to be, that's just bad design.

To be clear, I have no problem with media being offered through the net; I think it's a great option.
But it shouldn't be the only option when it doesn't have to be.

I strive to be a fair man, so I'll throw my own anecdotal experience into this: Steam lets me download games and while I can only get them through the net that dependency did not automatically require a persistent internet connection at all times to play those games.

If there is potential to be explored or conserved through a smarter system, through adaptability, why hold back?

To put this in perspective: You cannot lose any of your convenience as a result of an offline failsafe being present, but I have something to lose if it's taken away. And even if I had excellent internet, I would want a failsafe in place just in case the situation changes.

Incidentally this is why I say the "Always Online is the Future" argument is complete rubbish; it's glorifying a limitation and for all the worst reasons.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best.
Your attempt at baseless marginalization is not convincing in the slightest.

And since you've demonstrated a history of doing so:
Repeating this "gamers don't matter" ("entertainment device, not game console") line and insisting that it's fact without a shred of evidence to support that claim will only make you look foolish.

Especially in the light of Microsoft infamous 180. They backpedaled their system offer to meet Sony's system at parity. I'd wager the proof you would need doesn't actually exist. At best, you can claim neither system is especially mind blowing, but that's just evidence of two similar systems not being mind blowing.

It isn't evidence that Microsoft's original Xbone was a superior platform or that Microsoft wasn't being foolish with leveraging its brand. Gamers matter to Xbox because Xbox is a gaming brand first and foremost 13 years going.

So save us both some time and cut this marginalization bullshit. You're fooling nobody.

I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
Good for you, but frankly I don't care about what you do with your devices.

"It works for me, so it must work for everyone."
That's just elitism trying (and failing) to pass itself off as reason.
What goes on in your ivory tower does not help me or anyone else.
 

GonzoGamer

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It's very simple. Gamers let MS get away with too much last generation (a 50% fail rate, a fee for online, then raising the fee for online) so for this generation they tried to get away with more. I saw this shit coming towards the fan years ago.
I have to say that I'm surprised that they've felt the need to backpedal this much, if at all. If they got some games with real hype, there are plenty of gamers who would pay $600 for a XBone with a wearable kinekt, sub-dermal tracking chip, and a monthly fee to use the machine in any way.

Do I feel bad for the gamers who got suckered into buying the kinectfull xbone or the devs who decided to support the thing? No. Given MS' track record, they should've known better. Sorry if I can't even bother to get out my miniature violin.
 

CaitSeith

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SeventhSigil said:
CaitSeith said:
Nytr8 said:
For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik.
hydrolythe said:
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).

They were wrong. Most non-gamers didn't show any interest in the console, and the "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions" did what any "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining" consumer would do: they looked for an option with their rival company. I just imagine how pale their faces must have gone when Sony made their "How to share a PS4 game" sketch.

A hundred thousand percent this. Any product being released carries with it risk; you take something you think is going to do very, very well, (in this case being the previous Xbox dominance in the U.S., and their line of exclusive titles,) and pair it up with things that you, as a corporation, want to do well (some feature or attachment, like the Kinect) but are concerned won't be well-received, or won't succeed on its own if made optional. Sometimes, you succeed; Microsoft took a gamble on charging to pay for online multiplayer last generation, and the exclusives they released were more than enough to make that gamble pay off, giving them a lucrative secondary source of income. They took a gamble on sticking loads of advertisements in the layout later on in the 7th generation and, again, it paid off and they gained yet another lucrative stream of revenue. Any company, Sony, Microsoft, even Nintendo, will use existing influence and popular features to try and advance untested, or unpopular ones. Stricter paywall, unfriendly indie policies, all of these were things that paid off, because the positives outweighed them.

Sometimes, though, these gambles don't pay off; a feature list, or mandatory peripheral, or correspondingly higher price, gain so much scorn and dislike that it drags down the entire product. The Xbox One's higher price point, the Kinect that plenty of people didn't want, and other bumps in the road gutted their sales potential. At the same time, many indie developers finally had had enough, and Microsoft had to rework their indie policies to keep from missing out on titles that would be going to the PS4 instead.

Microsoft, like many, many other companies, took a gamble. The gamble failed. They are now scrabbling to get back on safe ground, and just like any other company that takes a failed gamble, they're going to be feeling fire singe their arse the entire way back.
Whenever I cross the street there is a risk. But if I cross the street without seeing the signs, without checking the red lights, without walking on the crossing path, or without looking at both sides before crossing, I increase the risk and rely more and more in luck to cross safetely. This isn't a black and white question. It's a question of how much they pushed their luck. And the answer is: too far this time. None of the previous things were so incovenient (or looked like a one-sided deal) for their average consumers than the always online DRM, lack of support of used games and Kinect always included, always enabled. Xbox is a game console brand. Xbox One was revealed to have gaming just as a secondary function.

And, the Kinect... why? Kinect was a lame experience for most gamers, and that made Kinect 2 a disaster for XB1. I know that if at first you don't succeed, try again; but I also know that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. For the consumers, Kinect and Kinect 2 were the same thing; and Microsoft did nothing to make clear it had been improved (kinda sounds like they didn't learn that from Nintendo's marketing mistake).
 

Aurion

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Sseth said:
I don't really understand this episode. Microsoft are liars. Okay. The Xbox One backpedaled. Okay... Personally I'm not even that cynical, they tried one route and it didn't work for them so they changed its course back towards something that works. And then like any sane company they covered it under heaps of PR and misinformation. To think that any other company wouldn't do the same thing is just plain ignorant. So why is this such a big deal?
I like how you literally recited almost the entire point of the episode (Microsoft is trying to roll in good press after blatantly lying about how the Xbox One worked) immediately after saying you didn't understand the point of the episode.

Microsoft saw what the consumer base wanted, and the consumer base didn't buy the Xbox One until it got what it wanted. Why does it matter that they did what every other major corporation that's a huge part of the market does? What matters is that the message is clear; we won't buy your console until we like what we see.
Maybe because they sold people a gigantic bill of goods about the Xbox One and the Kinect, and maybe they shouldn't get a free pass for doing so?

I'm really baffled honestly. If you're still driven by the honesty of Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony when choosing your console you're a moron and you should learn to be pragmatic instead. Because they all do the same thing and you'll just be screaming "SONY ARE LIARS DON'T BUY THE PS5" when the next company fucks up.
And now you're just haring off into the great beyond.

This just seems like pointless, try-hard idealism to me.
Yes, calling people out on lies is pointless, try-hard idealism. Wisdom indeed.
 

GonzoGamer

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
The 360 has about a 20% failure rate, not 50%. Some people are just super unlucky.
Is that what it is Now? Because I remember them taking years to fix the problem and around the time they fixed the thing, it was determined that it had a 50% defect rate. I think I read the article here in fact; can't imagine where else.

Granted it's not like your buying GM (a RROD 360 never killed anyone), but regardless of what the actual percentage was, they let that crap go on for way too long.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional.
Actually that's not true.
They said the XBONE needed to be connected to be functional at all.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/21/xbox-one-will-not-function-without-kinect-attached

M$'s exact words from their marketing event:
Harvey Eagle said:
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes."
Not "some cases", not "most cases"; ALL cases.
Literally, the only way to interpret that is that the Xbone will not work without the Kinect.
 

CaitSeith

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
CaitSeith said:
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).
That is incorrect. They literally said that. "Well if you don't have internet we have another device called the Xbox 360"
LOL. Much worse.
 

theApoc

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Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional.
Actually that's not true.
They said the XBONE needed to be connected to be functional at all.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/21/xbox-one-will-not-function-without-kinect-attached

M$'s exact words from their marketing event:
Harvey Eagle said:
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes."
Not "some cases", not "most cases"; ALL cases.
Literally, the only way to interpret that is that the Xbone will not work without the Kinect.
And when it launched neither of those two things were true. They wanted you to use the device, and they wanted a device connected to the network. There were some very good reasons for both.
 

theApoc

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
theApoc said:
Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
Ah yes. Just like Always Online, "it's inevitable".
As inevitable as cancer, and just as welcome.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
A move that was supremely foolish given the Xbox's history as a gaming brand.
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best. I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
You are wrong in both of your main points.

No device requires an always on connection if they can avoid it. Xbone required it for single player games, therefore, it was a poorly designed system. Coincidentally, they changed it back because the system had like 1/10th the pre-orders of the PS4. It was being utterly crushed by its only competitor simply because it lacked the 'features' of the Xbone.
Half of the games you play require an online connection to play properly. Seriously. While it is possible to play everything offline, you are not able to play 100% of pretty much any game released these days without a connection. Point being. There is a good reason for connectivity and it has nothing to do with screwing over the customer. And they removed the constant connection requirement because of nonsense like the things Jim posted in this video.