Jimquisition: Tomodachi Strife

[Dragonbums]

The issue is that even if he was just focusing on the statement it reinforces the increasingly popular and very bad notion that if "If your not for us, your against us". Especially when it comes to clash with other regions and cultures that don't give a shit about Western ideals. In the case of Nintendo they make a game that is only for a Japanese audience. Japan is a place where gay marriage is illegal. As such it comes to no surprise that they don't put that feature in the game.

Would you finally shut up with your "If your not for us, your against us" bullshit? Jim and many others explained why in this issue Nintendo did not act in a neutral way.
Doesn't matter what culture you're from. The moral argumentation of whether something is wrong is still the same no matter what part of the world you are from and whether it is socially acceptable in this place.

How about I won't shut up?

Because this is exactly what I'm talking about. "It doesn't matter what culture your from" argument never works because the culture it assumes everyone has to live up to is the Western culture with no consideration for other countries in the slightest.

Ethnocentrism is quite a blindfold in a lot of situations it seems.

Actually I am inclined to agree that culture plays a huge role in the argument because different cultures tackle different problems differently, to state the amazingly extreme obvious. Not that anyone could come to defense of Nintendo for excluding gay people, and the initial statement from Nintendo of America was a big fumble on their part, but issues like this are tackled in very different ways in Japan then they are in the US.

Sexism is a good example. Japan has a lot of content that is considered quite sexist in the west however, there is a clear segmented content for men and women in Japan, and so while this kind of content is seen to alienate women in the west from mainstream gaming, in Japan women have games, comics, and various other forms of entertainment designed by them and for them. Sure this has not eliminated sexism, far from it, but it has eliminated this feeling of alienation and even misrepresentation as you can find plenty of content with positive depictions of women. A lot of this doesn't make it to the west and that is another problem, but again its a different solution that is based on the culture in question.

Similarly, with Japan, we are not dealing with a culture that has a violent opposition to gay culture, gay people are not being beaten in the streets. Gay people in Japan face more of a cultural barrier that stems for very entrenched family values which means that there aren't nearly as many hate rallies explaining how gay people threaten the fabric of society, but rather there are a lot more parents disowning their children because they embarrass the family type attitudes. But one thing is for sure, not many are stepping forward to talk about the gay experience. In that way, no one talks about these problems. Nintendo would likely have said nothing, and no one would have lifted a finger in Japan. At the same time, Nintendo Japan, coming forward in defense of gay people would probably do very little to help the problems that the Japanese Gay community faces, because again a lot of the problems stem from the family and culture of shame in Japan.

So yes culture makes a difference, maybe not in the morality of the core issue but certainly in how the issue manifests, is perceived and handled.

Jim's argument is absolutely correct, and he has a point and I didn't disagree with a word he said. But that is no excuse to ignore the nuances of reality.

I understand.
I suppose I should make it clear that I personally feel that Nintendo should of put gay relationships in the game. However I look a the larger picture and realize that my personal feelings of the matter shouldn't blindfold me from the larger picture.

The bottom line is that they aren't going to put gay marriage into a game where it's only released in Japan. A country where gay marriage is illegal.

As such it's really annoying to seeing people go the route of calling them bigots, anti-gay rights, etc.

It's even more annoying when Jim pulled the "It's 2014!" and " only sensible, well adjusted, etc..." phrases which would imply that the people working at Nintendo of Japan are the equivalent of backwater country shrubs over a heavily political and cultural issue that's very different from the West. Not once did any news outlet reporting this topic ever address that aspect of the issue at all.

It's extremely self centered. That's what I have a problem with.

 

[Rozalia1]

Typical thread involving people congratulating themselves on how anti-X they are. Nice touch having most of them ignore the posters who have laid the actual situation out.

3. Finally, and most disturbingly, people seem to think it's ok to compare gay relationships to paedophillia.
I'm genuinely worried. Paedophillia is illegal - it hurts people and ruins lives. It's either full on or statutory rape.
Gay relationships, however, are consensual and legal. That's why we draw the line at gay relationships. Did you guys really just ask that question!?

And its illegal in Japan, and isn't it also a felony in many American states...so...yeah. Is homosexuality as bad as peaedophillia? To me no as I have nothing against homosexuality, but the fact of the matter is you can't get away with your logic when it is in fact illegal in a lot of places, including your own in certain areas.

 

[Matthewmagic]

As a gay man.

I don't find the failure to include homosexuals in Tomodachi Life that big of deal. If you want to make a fun cute game taking a whimsical approach on life, make that approach take place around the traditional nuclear family makes sense to me. I find just not including it far less condescending than the "oh and the one other gay man in the whole universe" option you find in Mass Effect 3 or dragon age (though Zevran was a pimp). Make the game you want to make, and lets not artificially take offense if it is not "inclusive" enough. I think it would be a much farther step forward for the gay community as a whole if we could just let shit like this slide and realize that not every game is going to have a gay character, or a black character, or a muslim character.

 

[Matthewmagic]

This is kinda like being upset that the game does not include a apartment complex. Many people would rather live in one, the option of having one isn't the end of the world, but it just seems silly that people would get so upset. The game isn't being anti-gay it is just being the game it set out to be, and I respect that.

 

[wulf3n]

Right, so software devs don't have tests in place to ensure what is currently working is still working before they push their changes out... (hint, they do actually. Or some do, at least)

You'd be surprised.

And you obviously don't use automated testing on new features before you push them, to ensure you aren't pushing something broken. That would just be silly, right? I mean, who uses test driven development, amirite?

Automated testing in games development only goes so far. Automated functional testing would be a nightmare to code, and unit testing is only really useful for testing a single bit of functionality, it doesn't ensure it will work correctly when live.

More towards your conversation. I agree that it's not as much work as Sticky suggests, but it's hardly "a couple of lines here or there". Plus you have to factor in design, implementation, testing and deployment, and that's assuming Nintendo doesn't have any bureaucratic red-tape to go through.

But I think what's driving Nintendo in this decision isn't the difficulty to change, but the snowball effects that change would have.

Say for example, nintendo patched the game so that the marriage/relationship check didn't filter out same sex mii's. If the "random-relationship" information I've heard is true, they've now created a situation in which the sexuality of the mii is not up to the player.

"What's the problem" I here you say, and to rational people there really isn't one, however the majority of the world is not rational. Just imagine the shit-storm that would ensue about how the game "Forces children into same-sex marriages" and all the talk about brainwashing. Thinking about it makes my head hurt, and it would put the current "controversy" to shame.

Now of course they could add in a "sexuality" option during character creation, much like the gender option, again more design,dev etc. and even then I'd still expect to see a significant backlash from parents raging about how their 3 year old was asking what sexuality they are, which would then spiral out of control, when the anti-gaming groups get their hands on it.

A simple change can have far reaching consequences. The difficulty of the change doesn't lie with the code itself.

 

[eatenbyagrue]

Am I the only one who clapped when Jim said "You've heard of Jim Sterling now"?

Because I thought all that was missing was Jim dropping the mic and walking away.

 

[Sticky]

More towards your conversation. I agree that it's not as much work as Sticky suggests, but it's hardly "a couple of lines here or there". Plus you have to factor in design, implementation, testing and deployment, and that's assuming Nintendo doesn't have any bureaucratic red-tape to go through.

I disagree about it not being as much work as it seems on the surface (the devil is always the details) but humbly accept that as your opinion that you are more than entitled to have.

Say for example, nintendo patched the game so that the marriage/relationship check didn't filter out same sex mii's. If the "random-relationship" information I've heard is true, they've now created a situation in which the sexuality of the mii is not up to the player.

This is another interesting point I didn't touch upon. The solution to this would be to let the player choose their sexuality upon creation, but once again that's more functionality that would have be added and tested on a game that has already gone gold in several parts of the world.

 

[wulf3n]

More towards your conversation. I agree that it's not as much work as Sticky suggests, but it's hardly "a couple of lines here or there". Plus you have to factor in design, implementation, testing and deployment, and that's assuming Nintendo doesn't have any bureaucratic red-tape to go through.

I disagree about it not being as much work as it seems on the surface (the devil is always the details) but humbly accept that as your opinion that you are more than entitled to have.

It's all kind of moot really, given that we haven't really defined what constitutes a large/small amount of work. What we need is a baseline. i.e. Less/More than ME3's extended cut? I would say less.

 

[RoonMian]

Oh great Jimquisitor,

You spoke out directly what's on my mind these days... And it needs to be spoken out, often, everywhere. In my country there is a book selling like crazy right now, haunting all the best-seller lists. Its name is: "Germany out of its mind - The insane cult about women, homosexuals and immigrants" Yes, it is exactly what it sounds like.

Please, Jim... Please, learn German and spread your wisdom here as well... Please...

 

[Casual Shinji]

Hey guys, what's- OH GOD.

I just wanted to say you made me day with this. That's the funniest damn thing I've seen in a long while.

 

[1337mokro]

You do know what this means right Jim?

We now need an episode that will feature the Dumb Comment of the Year Awards.

 

[Ophenix]

This is kinda like being upset that the game does not include a apartment complex.

No, it isn't. This game is supposed to be a representation of a player but Nintendo is telling you that who you are and what you are is wrong.
I wouldn't have cared if it weren't for their reply which was pretty much "This is a whimsical world and we do not approve of any of that sin and sodomy you want to bring to it!"

At least the FireFox CEO had the balls to admit he is a biggot.

 

[Deadagent]

3. Finally, and most disturbingly, people seem to think it's ok to compare gay relationships to paedophillia.
I'm genuinely worried. Paedophillia is illegal

Nope, Pedophilia in itself is not illegal. However child molestation is, yes, there is a huge difference.
Pedophilia is a state of being, if it was illegal, it would essentially be a thought crime.

As for the comparison itself, it's simply insane to suggest that sex between consenting adults is in
anyway comparable to sex with children who do not even comprehend whats going on.

OT: Well, this episode was some grand scale shit. Not only did Jim apparently lie about how the incident played out. He then proceeds to intentionally misinterpet Nintendos quote to make them look like vile horrible people.

"You can only be making a statement wheter you intend to or not"
So every game should include these options by law or something? What the actual fuck Jim?
You're telling me, that if I make for example a dating sim,
and don't include gay options, I'm automatically a bigot?

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to say no on that. This is the same thing as the racism thing over games, just because a game dosen't include character of every single race and nationality, does not mean that the developers hate everyone who is not included.
And get this, by blowing off steam (and no less lying while doing it) like this,
only gives more ammo to REAL bigots.
So thank you for not only making a fool of yourself, but also for feeding biggotry for your own monetary gain.

 

[Cybylt]

I wanted to say some stuff on the issue, but two other people have it covered and in better ways than I could, so...

Well it's always weird, because people have such passionate connections to video games that I think they sometimes let themselves forget that businesses are businesses, and they're playing the numbers game like anyone else. Nintendo will put out whatever socially acceptable or unacceptable content gets them the most sales. They'll change when it feels like putting in gay marriage will be worth more money. It sucks that art gets run by a business, but video games are so large and so expensive that they're probably more vulnerable to this than anything else, even movies.

I can totally understand the reaction to Tomodachi Life, even more than Animal Crossing, because you are playing as literal a representation of you in Tomodachi Life as you can pretty much get in a video game. So it's probably a huge bummer when a game not only doesn't let you get married to someone of your preferred gender, but effectively pairs you off as a straight couple without asking you. It's probably a huge bummer to hear "you're going to get married to a woman" when you're a gay man playing a game that has a cartoon version of yourself in it. That's a little different than even Bioware games not having same-sex relationships. More on that here: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ChristianNutt/20140508/217351/Understanding_Nintendos_Tomodachi_Life_problem.php

Really they were never going to change this stuff, even if there weren't a bunch of cartridges already printed and sitting on a shelf. Changing code isn't as easy as flipping a switch. People should probably be happy that Nintendo responded to its gaffe as generously as it did, while also keeping their hearts close and recognize that even a company that makes whacky fun-loving games is still a company. You should treat them as a company, not your pal, and the disappointment that you levy at them (which is genuine and reasonable) should be in that context.

 

[jaateloauto]

Am I the only one who clapped when Jim said "You've heard of Jim Sterling now"?

Because I thought all that was missing was Jim dropping the mic and walking away.

Frankly he should have considering he misunderstood what Nintendo said. They said didn't intend to make social commentary by _not_ including same sex relationships rather than other way around.

The gay movement isn't going to be thrown back by some game, all really needs to happen now time. Only demographic against are old people and those people don't play games and won't change their opinion through persuasion, we'll just have to wait for them to die off. I completely tuned out and went to write this comment after Jim started ranting on about this game.

 

[lord.jeff]

This is just one of those issues where no one is gonna come out looking good. On one side you have Nintendo is full of idiots making a complicated situation worse and on the other you have social justice crusaders ignoring facts so they can have another bad guy to go after.

 

[Darmani]

Oh yes Nintendo is horrible because as a Japanese company, it applies Japanese cultural norms to a game.

Nintendo is of course also "racist" against Muslims, since this game does not allow marriages with little children (as the Prophet with Aisha), or plural marriages (a basic islamic right).

The western release could have easily included gay marriage as a feature.

Sigh no it couldn't. Its unlikely it could be DLC'ed in.

Gay marriage happened as a glitch. Literally. due to a transfer gender was misassigned and same sex marriages with pregnant men happened. This would eventually lead to system damaging glitches. That's it.

BTW in the current game aside from pregnancy that's like one of the few restrictions your mii's sex entails. You can dress like a man and have a beard and be female.

As to Nintendo's first statement. I can see it being offensive but I'll take them at face value. They weren't weighing in on gay rights or marriage equality with the bug fix. Moreover its fun to lie to ourselves but gay rights still seen serious. Wanna know how to alleviate that

"I'm a Nintendo fan for x years and so is my husband/partner. We'd LOVE to buy your product and be a part of your whimsical world of fun. It doesn't have to be exactly like real life but we feel excluded as faithful customers..."

Some of the better people did do this. But there is STILL a lot of misinformation. TBF Jim is more about the initial response and the frustration that there even IS a struggle. I on the otherhand feel that's a social justice problem. I get exhaustion and frustration. I get being sick of having to prove yourself again and again. But if you want someone else to change their outlook or their actions for you, you can't look down on them and expect positive response unless you acknowledge your position as superior. And if so you can't react like a victim in need.

I am not sure what to send Nintendo now. I appreciate their final statement and promise. But I still want to incentivise the action so they don't forget it so its not a sout note of complaints and badgering but revelation and oppurtunities to the future.

 

[Ophenix]

"You can only be making a statement wheter you intend to or not"
So every game should include these options by law or something? What the actual fuck Jim?
You're telling me, that if I make for example a dating sim,
and don't include gay options, I'm automatically a bigot?

... Sigh. Again, people taking offense at something anyone with less hysterical thought process would understand.

This is a game in which you are supposed to create an avatar of yourself and let that avatar be an extension of you in a virtual world.
This isn't the same as a dating sim nor is it the same as a plot-based RPG.
No one objects to Final Fantasy games having (mostly, Cloud is a special case) straight protagonists and no one cares that your "Doki-Doki Tentacalu RayPoo 3" is for straight people only.

But in a game where you create an extension of yourself and you are informed that being anything but straight is impossible it is problematic.

Let me try and type is down slowly... If a game like Fire Emblem restricts gay relationships it is disappointing, but not something objectionable, it is possible that a cast of 40 characters will all be canonically straight and no one will protest. (they might ask for more gay representation but you know, people can ask for whatever they want.)

But if you are asked to create an extension of yourself and are then told that that extension cannot be anything but straight you are sending the players a message. You are telling them "Anything but straight is not acceptable."
If Nintendo wants to send that message, they are allowed, it's their game, but they shouldn't be telling us they "never intended to make social commentary" because TELLING ME IT ISN'T OK TO BE GAY IN THEIR WORLD IS SOCIAL COMMENTARY.

 

[Darmani]

The gist of what I removed from Dragonbums post: Jim got the details of the bug wrong and some other stuff. Link below.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.849789.20988250


Nature of the full bug at IGN (of all fucking places to get things right.) http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/05/nintendo-on-gay-marriage-and-tomodachi-life

The gay coupling players saw in screenshots were not a result of the bug. It was a result of Japanese players dressing up their "female" characters as male character and having them romance each other.

Wait.
Did they have the female Miis romance each other, or did they have the female Miis dressed as guys romance male Miis?

Anyway.

Yeah, I heard about that too. Glad Jim made the rest of it more about what Nintendo said to calm people and about how it's still so "risky" to just include gay people in games.

Still a shame about the misinformation, though I think you may be letting it get to you a bit too much.

They had female Mii's look and sound like Male Mii's and had them marry each other that way (I also think they were able to eliminate the default dresses as well to make it a lot more real)

I know it's getting to me, but man, look at the most commented section of this site. Most of them are directly related to the misinformation spreading of this entire issue. With people calling Nintendo bigots. I'm getting tired of it.

TBF you're getting a sample of what its like for the gay fans and people having to repeatedly assert or deal with myths, misinformation, or discrimination for a society that doesn't as actively disdain them. [http://www.cracked.com/article_21129_5-shocking-ways-society-still-doesnt-understand-gay-people_p2.html](2nd and 3rd points especially) Which is kind of why this blew up. In something so trivial activism is necessary to express themselves and be acknowledged as normal. and that can make you feel excluded for something private even in your own life or enjoyment.

 

[tstorm823]

I am saying its hilarious because you are quoting a book I haven't believed in since I was 12. It doesn't take much to completely and utterly disprove religion. There is an entire forum dedicated to it on this very site. That's why any sources tied to fundamentalists don't work.

a) If it takes so little, why would there be an entire forum for it?
b) I'm still here, so that disproving of religion hasn't really worked out all that well.