Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Aardvaarkman]

Calling someone cocksure is as much capable of being perceived as an insult as calling someone dense.

How so? "Cocksure" simply means "over-confident," while "dense" means stupid.

Yours was clearly an insult. Mine was just saying that I think you are over-confident in validity of your argument.

 

[wulf3n]

Why would you assume that?

It has been my observation that the majority of games fall into the power fantasy category usually from the male perspective.

We're talking about fiction - I think many writers want to explore worlds and scenarios and characters that are different to their own. Look how many people write Science Fiction or Fantasy - they aren't writing those novels to explore their own world, but to explore the unfamiliar.

In other industries perhaps, but we're talking about writing in games.

Heck, isn't that what role playing and a lot of video games are about? Playing in a world that you don't experience in your day-to-day life? Most fiction isn't about the author's crappy day at the office.

Hence the power fantasy.

So, why wouldn't a male writer be more interested in writing a female character or vice-versa?

I'm not saying a male writer wouldn't. Simply that I've observed male writers [in games] don't.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Well, I have to agree that the 'attractive' thing can be a problem, but for me, T&A is a different thing. So for three and a half out of four, Reimu Hakurei:

Spoiler: Image.

While I've already conceded the 'attractive' point, she's clearly not T&A, and for that matter there's not even a midriff to be found in the entire (all-female) cast. As for personality, she's widely regarded as a jerk, usually resolving incidents for her own personal gain rather than any sense of altruism. The other protagonist, Marisa Kirisame, isn't much better in that regard, but certainly the two of them make an interesting case study on that third point about not having daddy issues or unquestionable moral high ground.

 

[Thanatos2k]

Well, I have to agree that the 'attractive' thing can be a problem, but for me, T&A is a different thing. So for three and a half out of four, Reimu Hakurei:

Spoiler: Image.

While I've already conceded the 'attractive' point, she's clearly not T&A, and for that matter there's not even a midriff to be found in the entire (all-female) cast. As for personality, she's widely regarded as a jerk, usually resolving incidents for her own personal gain rather than any sense of altruism. The other protagonist, Marisa Kirisame, isn't much better in that regard, but certainly the two of them make an interesting case study on that third point about not having daddy issues or unquestionable moral high ground.

Sadly, I think moe now falls under the "traditionally attractive" category in Japan, terrifyingly enough.

 

[Velocir_X]

So a fucking documentary has more say and validity over me- a woman, who was at some point a little girl living the stereotype of dolls and princesses because some scientist said "because biology?"

You know what? No.
That's it.
I'm not even going to continue this further.
I'm not making a "claim"
I'm telling you how I actually experience the very thing you claimed. The stupid "All girls like princesses" notion that is more often than not a result of the parents buying said toys for them early on without even so much as asking them what they want because the assume all girls like dolls.
The only way you, or this video can know for a fact which is biology and which is societal culture is if you have parents who are willing to give up their newborn baby boy and baby girl and subjugate them for the next 5-8 years to a totally controlled gender neutral environment and see what happens. In fact, they won't even have names. They will be chosen by the kid themselves.

I had to beg my parents before they finally caved in and bought me an Nintendo 64

Woah Woah Woah, calm down; no need to explode. But yes, generally presentations of a series of related cited facts (documentaries), peer reviewed scholarly articles, logical lines of argumentation, and the results of controlled experiments are considered closer to the "truth" (as much as that can exist) than one persons individual experience. There's a reason anecdotal evidence is considered a logical fallacy. Moreover you do not need to completely strip something of its environment to get meaningful results; something called regression analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_analysis) exists. The results of numerous studies (Simon's is simply the most well known) are generally in consensus here, preference of toys at an early age: dolls and human-like things for girls and mechanical things for boys is most closely related to prenatal testosterone.

Now I understand you may have had a trying relationship with the norm. You are clearly genetically predisposed to something else, and I'm generally happy you found happiness somewhere else. But your experience does not discount the validity of the statistical baseline or its models.

And finally, why is the fact that you're a woman pertinent? Logic is logic, no matter who it comes from.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Sadly, I think moe now falls under the "traditionally attractive" category in Japan, terrifyingly enough.

Point. I still think it's at least a step up from T&A, but she still counts as being 'attractive'. I already conceded that, though.

 

[Velocir_X]

Calling someone cocksure is as much capable of being perceived as an insult as calling someone dense.

How so? "Cocksure" simply means "over-confident," while "dense" means stupid.

Yours was clearly an insult. Mine was just saying that I think you are over-confident in validity of your argument.

From dictionary.com:
Cocksure: overconfident, arrogant, conceited

arrogant and conceited are clearly insults, and of a similar connotation to dense

Now I could give less than two shits about what people call me, but its inconsistent to complain about being called dense on the grounds that its an insult and then turn around and call someone cocksure in the same sentence.

 

[springheeljack]

I was just thinking today about the fact that rockstar has not made a game with a female lead yet
I wish they would it would be interesting playing as one

 

[Thanatos2k]

I was just thinking today about the fact that rockstar has not made a game with a female lead yet
I wish they would it would be interesting playing as one

Grand Theft Auto is a game where you play a criminal. The criminal gender ratio in real life is 10:1 male. It is not unrealistic for a game about criminals to have most of the characters be men.

 

[lord.jeff]

Well, I have to agree that the 'attractive' thing can be a problem, but for me, T&A is a different thing. So for three and a half out of four, Reimu Hakurei:

Spoiler: Image.

While I've already conceded the 'attractive' point, she's clearly not T&A, and for that matter there's not even a midriff to be found in the entire (all-female) cast. As for personality, she's widely regarded as a jerk, usually resolving incidents for her own personal gain rather than any sense of altruism. The other protagonist, Marisa Kirisame, isn't much better in that regard, but certainly the two of them make an interesting case study on that third point about not having daddy issues or unquestionable moral high ground.

Sadly, I think moe now falls under the "traditionally attractive" category in Japan, terrifyingly enough.

How is it sad that is considered attractive? Unless you think traditionally attractive means sexualized.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I was just thinking today about the fact that rockstar has not made a game with a female lead yet
I wish they would it would be interesting playing as one

They have. 'z called Oni. You played a female cop in a futuristic world. It wasn't open world, or anything, though. Pretty lianear beat-em-up.
Bungie had a hand in it, too, but my Oni avatar on my R* social says R* owns the property.

But Oni was like... a PS2 release game. It's definitely been long enough for it to be overlooked.

 

[Dragonbums]

I was just thinking today about the fact that rockstar has not made a game with a female lead yet
I wish they would it would be interesting playing as one

Grand Theft Auto is a game where you play a criminal. The criminal gender ratio in real life is 10:1 male. It is not unrealistic for a game about criminals to have most of the characters be men.

Well keep in mind he's not talking about GTA in general.

They have made...a few new IP's in the past. The only thing that comes up right now is Bully.
So it's entirely possible for them to make a new IP.

I mean, they made 1 billion dollars afterall.

 

[cidbahamut]

It might be time for a new soap box. This one is starting to show signs of wear and tear.

 

[Dragonbums]

So a fucking documentary has more say and validity over me- a woman, who was at some point a little girl living the stereotype of dolls and princesses because some scientist said "because biology?"

You know what? No.
That's it.
I'm not even going to continue this further.
I'm not making a "claim"
I'm telling you how I actually experience the very thing you claimed. The stupid "All girls like princesses" notion that is more often than not a result of the parents buying said toys for them early on without even so much as asking them what they want because the assume all girls like dolls.
The only way you, or this video can know for a fact which is biology and which is societal culture is if you have parents who are willing to give up their newborn baby boy and baby girl and subjugate them for the next 5-8 years to a totally controlled gender neutral environment and see what happens. In fact, they won't even have names. They will be chosen by the kid themselves.

I had to beg my parents before they finally caved in and bought me an Nintendo 64

Woah Woah Woah, calm down; no need to explode. But yes, generally presentations of a series of related cited facts (documentaries), peer reviewed scholarly articles, logical lines of argumentation, and the results of controlled experiments are considered closer to the "truth" (as much as that can exist) than one persons individual experience. There's a reason anecdotal evidence is considered a logical fallacy. Moreover you do not need to completely strip something of its environment to get meaningful results; something called regression analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_analysis) exists. The results of numerous studies (Simon's is simply the most well known) are generally in consensus here, preference of toys at an early age: dolls and human-like things for girls and mechanical things for boys is most closely related to prenatal testosterone.

Now I understand you may have had a trying relationship with the norm. You are clearly genetically predisposed to something else, and I'm generally happy you found happiness somewhere else. But your experience does not discount the validity of the statistical baseline or its models.

And finally, why is the fact that you're a woman pertinent? Logic is logic, no matter who it comes from.

It matters that I'm a woman because at one point I was a girl. A literal person that is the object of the documantery and survey claims.
That's like saying poor Africans don't really know what they are suffering economically even though they tell you to your face what it is because some documentary by a white guy said something else.

 

[Erttheking]

I was just thinking today about the fact that rockstar has not made a game with a female lead yet
I wish they would it would be interesting playing as one

They have. 'z called Oni. You played a female cop in a futuristic world. It wasn't open world, or anything, though. Pretty lianear beat-em-up.
Bungie had a hand in it, too, but my Oni avatar on my R* social says R* owns the property.

But Oni was like... a PS2 release game. It's definitely been long enough for it to be overlooked.

Um, you may want to double check that. Bungie made that game. Rockstar just made the PS2 port. They may own the game now, but I'm pretty sure Bungie are the ones who made it.

 

[Silenttalker22]

Give me any subject involving characters or objects and I can make a list of increasingly stringent demands that only have one passing qualifier. That what he's done. Between the countless examples offered by other posters that prove this point almost complete fallacy, and obvious characters disqualified for the incorrectly applied definition of the qualification "protagonist", this video's point is ill-conceived.

I like Jim's insight on most subjects, but blindly agreeing with him, without stopping to ask if he's right, does everyone a disservice. He's shown in several videos that he's not nearly objective enough to argue this topic. Always picking the one side and hastily dismissing the legitimate points from the other side. Most of his sexism videos are Jim at the worst use of his, otherwise normally insightful, perspective.

 

[Velocir_X]

It matters that I'm a woman because at one point I was a girl. A literal person that is the object of the documantery and survey claims.
That's like saying poor Africans don't really know what they are suffering economically even though they tell you to your face what it is because some documentary by a white guy said something else.

The object of the documentary, and the studies its based on, is both sexes, not just women. Just wanted to get that out of the way first. As for your hypothetical scenario (which for the sake of argument I won't argue against) why is it pertinent that the guy who made the documentary is white? A claim is a claim, all that matters is the evidence and logic behind it. Any other approach is racist/sexist/whatevrist because its making prejudgements about the claim based on some quality of whomever made the claim.

Your line of argumentation is the same as saying (minus the word associations of course, from a purely formalist perspective):

"I was a neo-nazi once! How dare you say I didn't suffer from social ostracism in modern western society! Based of some study made by a jew about nazis killing six million?! Bogus!"

(and yes this can theoretically qualify as a reductio ad absurdum/ad hitlerum, but nonetheless I think its pertinent at least for illustrative purposes.)

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I was just thinking today about the fact that rockstar has not made a game with a female lead yet
I wish they would it would be interesting playing as one

They have. 'z called Oni. You played a female cop in a futuristic world. It wasn't open world, or anything, though. Pretty lianear beat-em-up.
Bungie had a hand in it, too, but my Oni avatar on my R* social says R* owns the property.

But Oni was like... a PS2 release game. It's definitely been long enough for it to be overlooked.

Um, you may want to double check that. Bungie made that game. Rockstar just made the PS2 port. They may own the game now, but I'm pretty sure Bungie are the ones who made it.

I am kinda murky on it, but I have the Oni icon for my R* social account, so they still have some control of the game. They also produced the PC version.
So bungie made the PC version, R* produced it, made a Ps2 port, and produced that. Close enough, kinda?

I think it's up to R* if they wanna make an Oni 2, and I wish they would.

 

[Arslan Aladeen]

Well, 13 pages, I'm sure mine will get lost in the shuffle, but I'd like to throw in my contender, Big Mama from Shock Troopers! She's a playable character, not conventionally attractive, totally a badass w/o getting her strength or motivation from any man, and she's a minority character to boot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBcHDWjm4TA

 

[Triality]

I can think of a recent example of a femme-protag that meets the Sterling test: Fat Princess from Playstation All-stars (Is that the title? I don't want to look it up).

You can play her in a solo campaign all the way through, and for all intents and purposes she is the cartoony videogame equivalent of what a dude-bro would label as a ham beast.



Personally, I agree with Jim. Gaming does need more examples like Brienne of Tarth. After seeing her kick ass all of last season in Game of Thrones I dare anyone to say they did not find her personality attractive as an orgy with a host of angels (guy or girl angels take your pick my compatriots. This is the no-judgement-zone).

What game makers don't understand, and what adolescent and pubescent shit heads need to be TAUGHT is that the most attractive quality on the entire planet is EMPATHY! Once both parties can accept this, the healing can begin.