Jimquisition: Vertigo

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Can't sleep again, so I figure I'll toss out the usual answer nobody wants to hear.

The way women are portrayed in video games is because this is what women want as much as what guys want. If you look at the characters created by and for women within the fantasy and science fiction generes they are identical to what you generally see from video game characters.

What's more the argument that the heroic ideal for men is that different is flawed. In most of the examples of "ugly guys" Jim gives your dealing with characters who represent a physical ideal as well. Even these old dudes are generally speaking ripped beyond belief when they take off their shirts. Being a bit grizzled or having some scars on the face can actually be quite attractive, and really can't be used to make an "ugly" argument in these cases especially if your going to omit characters like say Mileena or Cammy. Cammy's face being scarred being a part of her original backround, and Mileena is a horribly deformed monster under her mask (albeit you can't see it except during her fatalities). In short if your going to argue that a girl say wearing an eye patch doesn't count, then most of this won't either, since the type of argument Jim is using is "well look at the body" which is also what I'm pointing out. I mean even the wimpy looking guys have washboard tummies and a decent amount of muscle definition. Marcus Fenix has arms at least as big around as his neck. While many women will claim they aren't attracted to muscles, the truth is the vast majority are which is how things like "Chippendales" have become huge money makers, and why guys showing off their massive guns pumping iron at the beach generally don't have any trouble getting girls.

As a general rule there is no real sexism in video games, it's pretty much indicative of the generes it sets out to cover, keeping both male and female creators and audiences in mind. A much more fair argument would be that there aren't many characters in video games that don't approach some kind of heroic ideal. Even the fat guys are generally portrayed as being "power lifter" fat and are usually among the strongest characters in the games they appear in (and if you've ever watched things like "World's Strongest Man" you kind of know where they are coming from). I mean sure, we've got guys like "Mario" and girls like say "Cooking Mama" but they represent exceptions rather than the rule. This situation is so pronounced that it was kind of the point of why the guys who did "Rochard" and Yahtzee's hairy Yorkshireman were designed to look the way they did.

It's also important to note that in these arguments one has to also exclude fan fiction where pretty much some perv is going to sexualize anything. To be brutally honest I never got the impression characters like "Roll", or "Princess Peach" were really going for the sex appeal in the way they were designed. The same could be said of a lot of characters, especially ones that existed largely as overlarge heads attached to barey visible bodies in old school pixelated games.

What's more if your going to take "Vertigo" as an example, you can also go for say "Quina" or "Freya" from "Final Fantasy IX" neither of whom were attractive by anything close to a conventional standard and actually kind of went
into grotesque territory. You can even take that further by going into say "Shin Megami Tensei" games where not all of the female demons who are playable are anything close to being attractive. The point is that the exceptions are there if you bother to look and aren't so intent on just making an argument for the sake of making an argument. Also, as I said, just because someone sexed something up, doesn't reflect on the entire body of work, even if some developers did do a sexed up version of the character at some point. For example while we've seen "hawt" depictions of Samus even within the games how often does this generally come up? Part of the point was that it's generally not noticible since she's usually trotting around with so much armor there could be a talking dog inside the suit for all we know.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,632
2,849
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Okay, did a quick look at the first couple of posts and last couple of posts, so I have not looked through the whole thread, but I wanted to point something out to everyone that someone I know pointed out to me.

Reverse Jim's test. Apply it to the opposite gender and see what happens. The fact that they can't be influenced by past trauma is especially damning.

Honestly... I've only been looking at Jim's stuff for a few months and so far I actually think I like him worse than Bob (As he's become now). His videos so often seem to be much ado about nothing, he's good at really playing up what he's saying but it's often a problem of his own design or just him saying something as if it's amazing or revolutionary but is really just common stuff (But he makes it sound amazing), or something like this which is so arbitrary that it's useless.
 

The Random Critic

New member
Jul 2, 2011
112
0
0
Didn't read the whole 18 pages of word, because err..

However, there is one character I think this Jim man missed (it's a pretty well known game too)

"Beauty is power. This thought comforted Medusa--the youngest and loveliest of three beautiful Gorgon sisters, born to a sea goddess--because she alone of the sisters was mortal. It comforted her, that is, until the day masked assailants invaded the Gorgon realm and tore the two immortal sisters from their home, unmoved by their beauty or by their tears. One of the invaders seized Medusa as well, but then cast her aside with a disgusted look: 'This one has the mortal stink upon her. We have no use for that which dies.' Humiliated, enraged, Medusa fled to the temple of her mother and cast herself before the goddess, crying, 'You denied me eternal life--therefore I beg you, give me power! Power, so I can dedicate what life I have to rescuing my sisters and avenging this injustice!' After long thought, the goddess granted her daughter's request, allowing Medusa to trade her legendary beauty for a face and form of terrifying strength. Never for a moment has Medusa regretted her choice. She understands that power is the only beauty worth possessing--for only power can change the world." (from http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Medusa)

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/c/cf/Medusa_splash.jpg

Just want to say it because she is one of my favorites (the back story and the design at least)

Edit: then again, she did suffer. But ehhh
 

Amaror

New member
Apr 15, 2011
1,509
0
0
Jan Smejkal said:
And with this I agree. Completely.

Also Planescape Torment, give it a try. It is available on GOG.com (use Infinity Engine Widescreen mod to play it in ~HD). Awesome and unsusual game in many aspects.
Thanks, i heard a lot about it. I don't know if i can really play it, because i failed at playing baldurs gate mainly because of the interface and how it controls. but maybe i will check it out nonetheless.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
0
0
Keep in mind while reading my posts. I love Jim's work. He and Ben basically keep me coming back all the time for more. I just disagree with his criteria in this instance but I enjoyed the video and appreciate the time he put into it.

I have also presented at least 4 characters (three from the same game, Thomas was alone, the other from The Cave) who obviously match the criteria and that's just a start.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Lightknight said:
Attractive is not just the clean shaved appearance. An attractive character is one that appeals to what we want to be like. Plenty of men want to look like powerful badasses, grizzled and capable.
That looks less like Jim making a mistake, and more about you trying to play a semantics game.
How? A cornerstone point of his video is that there are loads of ugly male characters when there are clearly different criteria for attractiveness in male characters than in female characters. A man can look grizzled and tough and clearly fit look that people want to emulate. Are there some male characters that break the mold and aren't any of those things? Sure. I presented the nerd from Day of the Tentacles and the slob from Heavy Rain has also been brought up. But these characters are extremely rare and I have already presented some clear examples of plain or outright unattractive female characters.

The most blatant example that hits all the criteria being the scientist from The Case, Again:

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/0/1516/2508490-s4.jpg

Pear-shaped cankles giving anyone the hots here? Wouldn't matter if so because this is all wrong where classic beauty is concerned. Her motivation? Greed. She even meets the bad girl playable character that Jim didn't even try to reach. But that's double fine's hallmark, unique and memorable characters and stories.

Then there's the three female squares that are playable protagonists in Thomas Was Alone. The direct opposite of curvy beauty.

Faith from Mirror's Edge who I posted a picture of from the next title they're developing. She's decidedly not anything more than plain to me.

Then there's a significant list of female characters who are pretty but who aren't all breasts, butts and legs. Dressed appropriately and realistic proportions.

I also think you're bright enough to understand that you've added a criteria clearly not part of Jim's list. Do you honestly think, given his video, he was talking about how the video games industry tailors these characters to women? Talking about what women want seems more like a distraction than an honest point. and that appears to be a pattern here.
My comments regarding the tailoring of them to women is the question of "what's the point?". At least in Heavy Rain the guy looked like the standard weary eyed slob of a detective. Avatars of playable protagonists aren't just thrown together. They look the way they appear for a reason. Who wants to play as an ugly female? Why would someone do that unless it's relevant to the core mechanic of the game?

This isn't just a red herring. This is questioning the conclusion or point of the whole video. If there's no kind of serious demand for an ugly female protagonist like there is for some meat-fisted-scarred-badass male then, so what? So what if there aren't as many ugly female protagonists? It'd be like pointing out that there are no or very few chocolate-filled hotdogs for sale out there. So clearly the hotdog industry is against chocolate despite the clearly apparent reason being that there's no demand for chocolate-filling in hotdog meat.

piscian said:
Chell doesn't have any speaking parts and I think generally you only know shes female because Valve told us shes female. Valve is doing the right thing. No females are sexed up in valve games but if everyone was like valve in that regard we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm not arguing to defend jim or for the sake of argument so much as I honestly find this to be an interesting game. I've been wracking my brain and I can't think of anything. Developers just don't seem to know how to give female protagonist any type of physical character. It would be neat if someone could really call Jim on this but I'm truly stumped.
Or, if you used portals to look at yourself you'd know it. Seeing as that was basically the first thing most people did it's not a rare occurance. You just put two portals on adjacent walls in a corner. There's also any of the jumps where you have to place a portal directly next to another while in mid-air in which you see yourself flying towards the portal next to it.

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/2179/1776452-chell_portal_1.pngShe's actually kind of ugly there. Portal 2 changes that though:

http://thegamingliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/portal2-chell.jpg.
piscian said:
See the problem is in the first sentence "Jim's criteria are meaningless". Everyone seems to be posting examples that don't fit his criteria in anyway way shape or found and now the defense is basically "well his criteria sucks". I disagree. It's tough but I think he's right. I think a cool example of fighting this kind of stigma is that weird anime dating game where the kid is in a school full of hot but disabled girls. Not my thing but it's a step in the right direction.
You misunderstand, saying that Jim's criteria is meaningless doesn't mean it sucks. Just that it so unnecessarily constricts the possible results so as to limit the point of the comment in the first place. "Ok, sure, there aren't many women named Frank who work in the construction business and wear a wife beater shirt to work regularly even though there are a ton of males who meet those criteria". But why is that criteria relevant? What is it trying to prove when there are women who do work in the construction industry even though their names aren't Frank.

So the lines drawn are often arbitrary. Why must the individual be specifically ugly rather than just plain or nondescript like Faith and several other characters? Why can't the individual be pretty but simply not be hyper-sexualised like Jade or Chell or Lara Croft's most recent manifestation? Why don't survival games count (seriously, why throw out a genre just to do it)? Why can't the motivation be a man in the same way hundreds if not thousands of male protagonist games are about a woman?

While I do have a qualm about dismissing customiseable protagonists altogether, I understand why it's done here so my mentioning it wasn't really a detractor so much as a comment. I just brought it up because, still, as a character type that would be incredibly niche, character creation is a great way to fill that niche without creating an avatar that no one really wants to play with. Girls do like the idea of a female option to play as, they don't seem to express the desire for an ugly one just like most males want handsome or strong/dangerous/mysterious/rough or some combination thereof. So the problem isn't that you can't play as an ugly female character if you want to which begs the question of what the problem is at all. For some people, Fem Shepard from Mass Effect was ugly. To them. Why does it matter if she wasn't ugly for other gamers who decided not to go with an ugly one? Is it so important that we force things we want on other gamers so that we may feel socially vindicated?

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9515/uglyshep.jpg

I was at a bar last night with a friend and that surfer Bethany Hamilton was on TV. We both agreed we hit that in a heartbeat even though she's "unconventionally attractive". As a gamer I'd have no problem playing as a horribly disfigured female character if it fit the plot.
Oh, I don't have any problem with playing as such characters. I practically forget what my character looks like during the game as long as the story is worthwhile.

As for Bethany, she's very much conventionally attractive. She's just missing an arm.

http://cdn03.cdn.justjaredjr.com/wp-content/uploads/pictures/2011/04/annasophia-acms/annasophia-robb-bethany-hamilton-acms-02.jpg

My main point though is exactly that. "Conventionally attractive" and what that constitutes is entirely relative. As I stated, Faith from Mirror's Edge looks very plain to me. To me, she fits all of Jim's criteria.
 

Pat Hulse

New member
Oct 17, 2011
67
0
0
MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
Peacock - Her motivations center around being used as a test subject, which Jim would justifiably qualify as "power from trauma".
Wait that was one of his conditions? Ok so it's no longer about "there's not a lot of variety in women" and now it's "I can't find my perfect version of a not-attractive female protagonist except for Vertgo".

If we exclude power from trauma we'd have to exclude Kratos, and Niko Bellic and most of anyone else out for revenge.
It's true that we'd have to exclude Kratos and Niko, but there are still plenty of male characters that are strong simply because they wanted to be or because of an intellectual or idyllic pursuit of some kind. The point isn't that characters who get power from trauma aren't interesting, just that when that's overwhelmingly the most common origin story for strong women,
Says who?
I certainly am having a hard time thinking of well-developed, non-fetishistic strong female playable protagonists that don't have traumatic origin stories, but maybe you have a few in mind that I'm overlooking?
You added fetishistic which is moving the goalposts and strong is subjective and vague. I don't have a list of female protagonists off the top of my head, but it's your claim. Usually games are about stopping an evil villain because they're evil, not because of trauma, although that is vague enough to cover every revenge story ever.
We can't keep making the argument that games are too simple or supposed to be about fun first if we expect it to evolve as a medium. Yeah, we can have fun, but we can't hide behind fun when someone wants to bring up more complicated arguments or wants to expect more than that. I want this medium to keep getting better. It has the potential to be the best.

MuffinMan74 said:
Off the top of my head

Chell
protagonist from Pirates: The Legend of Black Kat
the female playable characters from the Mercenaries games.
Tira from Soul Calbur
I can name other protagonists but I don't know their backstories.
Lacking a backstory kind of makes it hard to make them interesting. Not impossible, just difficult. And if gaming is going to keep evolving, characters are going to get more fleshed out backstories (and they already are). So far, women tend to get very specific kinds of backstories like the ones I talked about.

As for your examples... I do love Chell, but her backstory is unquestionably pretty traumatic. If you don't pay attention to the subtext, GLaDOS suggests that her parents abandoned her and she because a test subject in Aperture Labs, which is pretty much by definition traumatic. If you do pay attention to the subtext, she was brought to Aperture Labs during Bring Your Daughter To Work Day, which implies that her parents worked there and were killed during the massacre that happened on that day. Pretty traumatic. Still, I will give the games credit, while her backstory is tragic, her strength never seems to stem from it. Instead, her strength seems to stem from her stubborn nature. So I'd say that's at least a partial victory.

I never played "Pirates: The Legend of Black Kat", but from the Wikipedia page, yeah, I'd say she's a good example. She's traditionally attractive, meaning she doesn't fit Jim's criteria, but I'm less picky. To me, she doesn't seem directly sexualized as well as having an interesting backstory motivated by ambition and altruism rather than trauma or the ambitions of a man. Good find. Well done.

I haven't played the "Mercenaries" games either, but the women in those games seem appropriate as well.

Tira is definitely sexualized, but ignoring that, she was trained as an assassin while she was still a child. You don't find that traumatic?

Meanwhile, let me see what I can do for male playable protagonists. Again, they can be physically attractive, just not explicitly designed to be. They have to be remotely interesting and they have to be strong without having a traumatic backstory that came before their moment of strength. So long as there could be no implication that the character is strong because of their trauma, trauma is just fine in my book.

Rayman, Sonic, Chase McCain, Mario, Luigi, Booker DeWitt (trauma, yes, but it happened after he became a soldier and went to war, not before), Michael De Santa, Franklin Clinton... and that's just characters that appeared in games this year.

MuffinMan74 said:
As for ones that are motivated by trauma I can think of 3 (4 depending on how you count it) from a series where most of the characters are motivated by trauma/revenge.
I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of male characters motivated by trauma/revenge. Nor am I saying that there aren't a lot of male characters who could be arguably strong because of their trauma or desire for revenge. What I am saying is that there are numerous examples of male characters who aren't motivated by those things. Characters that can serve as role models, examples, or conduits for male gamers to explore feelings of strength and agency without feeling like they have to suffer to get it. The foundation for the desire to be proactive and heroic. That you shouldn't need a reason to stand up and do the right thing. However, there aren't very many playable female protagonists that can also serve that purpose. Is it any wonder why a lot of people confuse strength with masculinity? When a man is strong, it's typical and heroic and expected, when a woman is strong, she needs a reason, something that makes her unusual, something that makes her "broken".

MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
it implies that women are only believably strong when something traumatic has happened to them, or to put it another way, because something is "wrong" with them.
Maybe if you get all your information on women from games and read subliminal message that don't exist. Is there a term for reading between the lines information that wasn't actually there?

Haven't played the new Tomb Raider, can't comment on it.
It's not just games. Most popular media tend to touch on these tropes all the time. And people of all ages are subtly informed by our media. Just because a message isn't intended doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You said that they implied women are only strong if they're traumatized. As if it's a message they're trying to get across.

And yeah going across the entire history of games you'll see a lot of games employing every trope.
Again, it's not about whether or not we employ tropes. It's about whether or not we're doing anything to step outside them. Whether or not there are examples we can go to that don't rely on those tropes. Whether or not we understand as a culture that those tropes are problematic and probably shouldn't be used quite as much. Unfortunately, counter-examples are really hard to come by and require a lot of digging to turn up. Furthermore, anything that tries to explore the pervasiveness, implications, and consequences of reliance on these tropes tends to get blasted and flamed by the gaming community as though it were some kind of threat.

Imagine if this were about any other kind of trope or tendency in video games. When people say, "Too many AAA video games rely on cutscenes to tell their stories," people usually reply with, "Well, I do like cutscenes, but yeah, sometimes it can get annoying," and when games like "Half-Life" come out, people praise them for stepping outside the trope and showing how much better it can be without it. We have entire shows ("Unskippable") dedicated to pointing out the stupidity in this trope.

Imagine if people in our community treated this trope like they do with the tropes regarding women in video games...

"Why are you trying to get rid of cutscenes!?"
"I'm not, I'm just saying we could use more games that try not to rely on them."
"Plenty of older games don't have a lot of cutscenes. Like what about Pong?"
"Well, Pong doesn't really have a story..."
"Oh, now we're moving the goalposts? OK, so now we need to have games with good stories that don't use cutscenes for you to be happy?"
"I don't think that's much to ask..."
"Well what about 'Half-Life'? Isn't that good enough for you? Let us have our cutscenes!"
"I just think that games would be better if they let the story evolve more naturally. When the story happens in cutscenes, it breaks immersion and implies the events are happening to a character, not to me as a player."
"I think you're reading too much into it. Stop reading between lines that aren't there! The game developers are just trying to make something fun!"
"I'm not saying they're doing it on purpose, but I don't think you can argue that it's not true."
"But you said it 'implies' like it's some kind of message they're trying to get across. Cutscenes aren't put there to offend you! They're there because they're more economical than creating more gameplay. It's just capitalism! Stop making a big deal out of it!"

Meanwhile, every episode of "Unskippable" has to turn commenting off in order to avoid getting accused of terrorism.

See, to me, this is how ridiculous it sounds when someone argues this heavily against trying to encourage stepping out of negative tropes regarding women in games. I don't think you can reasonably argue that it's not a common occurrence and that it tends to make the characters less interesting and the games less fun and that it alienates a respectable number of gamers. In my mind, that just means we ought to evolve past it. That we ought to raise our standards just like we would with any other annoying trope that game developers rely on in their lazier, less creative moments. Arguing that it's not intended or that you can find counter-examples or that we're being too picky or that it's not really all that bad is just pointless to me.

We find faults with our games all the time. We criticize them, we make them better, we find new things to criticize. This is normal behavior. Why are we so edgy about this particular criticism every time it comes up?
 

cefm

New member
Mar 26, 2010
380
0
0
This has less to do with the games industry than with general cultural views. Video games do pretty much exclusively present male characters that are "attractive". It just so happens that male "attractiveness" can derive from several different sources - it can be physical beauty, strength, power, importance, being funny. Female "attractiveness" used to also draw on an equally broad base, but under modern cultural presentation, female "attractiveness" has been whittled down to only two things: youth and beauty.

I don't blame the games industry for not giving us "unattractive" characters. They'd be foolish to do so. I blame us for having such narrow and limited views of what makes a female "attractive".
 

zacharyk88

New member
Oct 30, 2011
13
0
0
I Completely agree with Jim with what he's saying but as a counterpoint to the whole "Vertigo is the only one who fits this bill" argument: there was that girl on pikmin 3 who wasn't really attractive because it's pikmin and she's not really motivated by men she just works with them.
 

carnex

Senior Member
Jan 9, 2008
828
0
21
Dragonbums said:
Everything you present does not support that gender is social constructs, only that we can not test that idea due to constant presence of disruptor (society)

But I will tell you that in 19 century, when nature VS nurture first started (from industrial revolution up to WWI both boys and girls wore white dresses (easily bleached) untill the age of 5-6 (before that they wore whatever parents could get them, often meaning nothing)) and laws weren?t strict there were experiments with gender bending of infants with families removed from society tasked with treating girls like boys and boys like girls. While there were more tomboys and sissies gender bending haven't really worked.

So is there social influence, of course, only it's not fundamental. It might not be dolls and action figures but girls tend to be interested for games with social significance while boys generally go for physical activities and contact sports.
 

MEsoJD

New member
Aug 13, 2013
3
0
0
This has been beaten to death and is now just annoying. The main reason for the similar portrayal of Women is that the majority of game developers and consumers are male. If it were the other way around I guarantee you there would be a lot more interesting female characters. There is also society and biology that also has a role. The main consumer who is male is still buying games with these portrayal of females because it was made for them. If it's such a problem, people need to stop supporting those games and/or develop there own(indie hint hint). Let artist create whatever they want and decide whether you want to support there creation or not. Don't ***** about it. To end on this ramble, I'm tired of this view of men portrayed in the media that we don't have any problems compared to women when that is so far from the truth. The number of disadvantages/advantages pretty much equal out, but people fail to recognize.
 

Pat Hulse

New member
Oct 17, 2011
67
0
0
MuffinMan74 said:
MuffinMan74 said:
As for ones that are motivated by trauma I can think of 3 (4 depending on how you count it) from a series where most of the characters are motivated by trauma/revenge.
I was saying I could only think of 3 or 4 women who were motivated by trauma/revenge. One of those is kind of iffy now that I think about it.
When there aren't many playable women with backstories in the first place, it's not surprising to me that you can only think of a few.

MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
Furthermore, anything that tries to explore the pervasiveness, implications, and consequences of reliance on these tropes tends to get blasted and flamed by the gaming community as though it were some kind of threat.
Well it always sounds like the next logical step is "ok what should we do about it, get rid of them?" I mean if you think something is sexist or problematic then surely that means you'd like to see it gone.

Plus if the problem is lack of variety than it's not the problem of the tropes then. If there were lots of action movies about women repelling random aliens/terrorists then all of a sudden Kill Bill wouldn't be problematic any more.
It's not about whether or not I want something "gone". Think of it this way.

I don't much care for first person modern warfare shooters. Occasionally I might find exceptions to this, but as a rule, I don't really like them and regardless of how good one may be, I probably would never enjoy it unless it did something particularly unique or subversive. And it's not just about questions of taste, I have actual objections to the genre that I think justify my general dislike of it. These objections exist no matter what, the difference is just that most people are either fine with them or don't really care about them.

But I don't necessarily want them to stop making modern warfare shooters. Plenty of people like them and there are plenty of other games I can play that aren't modern warfare shooters.

However, if almost every game in the industry was a modern warfare shooter and games that weren't almost never came out, I'd understandably be a little pissed about it.

So yeah, I'll probably always see the Sorceress and the Amazon in "Dragon's Crown" as sexist and there's really nothing anyone can do to change my mind on that. But I'm still fine with the fact that the game exists and that people enjoy it. I won't think less of anyone for doing so unless they do so explicitly because it's offensive, but I know people don't. They just like T&A and side-scrolling beat-em-ups and there's really nothing inherently wrong with that. I just think it's unfair that there aren't a lot of options if you want strong female characters that don't embody those tropes.

Do I think these tropes are negative? Certainly. Would I lose sleep if they were gone overnight? Probably not. Do I need them all gone to feel satisfied that social justice has been served? Nah. I just want people to understand why people are bothered by these portrayals and why it's a problem that the industry doesn't seriously attempt to provide alternatives.

Just because something bothers some people doesn't mean we should get rid of it. Violence bothers a lot of people. But we still use it responsibly. We still offer alternative forms of entertainment that don't include lots of violence. And violence, even offensive levels of violence, can be used to make interesting points, but only if the social context of violence is fully explored and understood.

MuffinMan74 said:
And I was saying that I don't think most woman protagonists are motivated by trauma. I haven't been convinced.
Perhaps not most female protagonists are motivated by trauma, but I'd say that's because there are already very few female protagonists and the ones that do exist generally aren't interesting enough to have any kind of clear motivation. When a game attempts to actually have an interesting female protagonist, they're either very sexualized/fetishized in their design or they are given a tragic backstory to give her some degree of vulnerability.

MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
Imagine if this were about any other kind of trope or tendency in video games. When people say, "Too many AAA video games rely on cutscenes to tell their stories," people usually reply with, "Well, I do like cutscenes, but yeah, sometimes it can get annoying," and when games like "Half-Life" come out, people praise them for stepping outside the trope and showing how much better it can be without it. We have entire shows ("Unskippable") dedicated to pointing out the stupidity in this trope.
I get where you're trying to go but nobody says that too many cutscenes is problematic or sexist or that it influences anything other than game design. Nobody wants to be the person that says "yes this is sexist but it should stay" unless it was meant to be sexist.
You don't have to say, "Yes, this is sexist but it should stay". What you can instead say is, "Yes, this is sexist, but I still enjoy the game in spite of its flaws," or simply "Yes, I understand that you find this sexist and I understand why you wouldn't like to play it, but I don't necessarily feel the same way." That's really it. That's pretty much all people who criticize this sort of thing are expecting in response. To be listened to and acknowledged. They don't need to convince anyone of anything. They just want it brought up and discussed. Unfortunately, what tends to happen is that they get accused of pushing agendas or being ignorant about the medium or having some ulterior motivation. More often than not it's just somebody who feels uncomfortable about a particular aspect of a game or the industry as a whole and wants to voice their criticism of it. That criticism may stem from theories based in certain political movements, but that's just a perspective, not an agenda.

MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
See, to me, this is how ridiculous it sounds when someone argues this heavily against trying to encourage stepping out of negative tropes regarding women in games.
Negative trope? So is it bad whenever it's used? I don't think it is, I am a fan of God of War after all. I also think there's some interesting stories to be mined out of it.
I'd say that some see cutscenes as a general negative. I'd say that most see unnecessary cutscenes or a general dependence or prevalence on cutscenes would be a general negative.

MuffinMan74 said:
Pat Hulse said:
I don't think you can reasonably argue that it's not a common occurrence and that it tends to make the characters less interesting and the games less fun and that it alienates a respectable number of gamers.
In order:

Common yes (with either gender) most common no.
Less interesting sure (most of the time) but so does most other two sentence motivation (examples include: I'll get rich if I find this treasure, an evil being is invading and I must stop them)
Depends on the game.
Who knows.
No, it's more common for women to just not be included at all.
"I'll get rich if I find this treasure" is far more interesting to me than "I saw my father killed when I was a kid" because it deals with the desires of the character and their agency rather than the things that happened to them. That's another common theme with female protagonists. It's more common for things to happen to them rather than things happening as a result of their agency.
This is true, and again, that's why I'm not calling for an abolition of these tropes, just a better understanding of them so that when they're used, the person using them knows the societal implications surrounding them.
I'd say that the large number of gamers who generally talk about these things and keep bringing them up would know whether or not they feel alienated by them. If these people didn't exist in high numbers, I think Tumblr would be a very different place and Anita Sarkeesian probably wouldn't have enjoyed as much success.
 

Arfreid

New member
Aug 13, 2009
86
0
0
Tombsite said:
Arfreid said:
Hmmm how about Xel'lotath from Eternal Darkness... then again... 'she' and Vertigo have too much in common.

http://eternaldarkness.wikia.com/wiki/Xel%27lotath
She is not player controlled.
Ok, let me try again... Brittany from Pikmin 3 !!!

http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Brittany

She is playable

Even though she has a humanoid shape, I think we can agree that even though the character is pleasant to the eye, her design falls more on the scientist/gourmet approach, also, I get the feeling of normal looking astronaut girl from her more than anything else.

Her motivations are not tied to do the bidding or to look for the approval of any man, the character(s) are on a mission to collect seeds for their homeplanet and also, as a gourmet, she wants to taste as much fruit as possible, also she is probably be the most ruthless of all the characters in the game.


Damn... that was a lot harder than it should have been...
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
carnex said:
Dragonbums said:
Everything you present does not support that gender is social constructs, only that we can not test that idea due to constant presence of disruptor (society)

But I will tell you that in 19 century, when nature VS nurture first started (from industrial revolution up to WWI both boys and girls wore white dresses (easily bleached) untill the age of 5-6 (before that they wore whatever parents could get them, often meaning nothing)) and laws weren?t strict there were experiments with gender bending of infants with families removed from society tasked with treating girls like boys and boys like girls. While there were more tomboys and sissies gender bending haven't really worked.

So is there social influence, of course, only it's not fundamental. It might not be dolls and action figures but girls tend to be interested for games with social significance while boys generally go for physical activities and contact sports.
But my initial argument was not gender is purely a social construct.
My argument was that saying it was scientific fact that girls will play with dolls and princesses is horribly faulty.

There is a difference between sex and gender which I think you are getting mixed up here. (Understandable since they are used interchangeably)

Sex is the genetic makeup of a species that determines whether it is male or female.

Whereas gender is how said specific sex acts in society. So for example girls expected to be horse riders in country A as opposed to girls expected to be proficient fishermen in country B. If someone in country A states that girls are naturally more proficient at horse riding due to being expected to know how to ride horses since birth it would be incorrect to attribute that soley to genetics because the expectations of society surrounding them places heavy emphasis on female knowing how to ride horses. That is a social construct.

Being highly sociable does not equate to playing with dolls. Because then the same can apply to boys. There is literally no difference between an action figure and a doll. Action figures was just a term coined to separate the boy dolls from the girl dolls. Both are at the fundamental level plastic (or whatever material) toys that are meant to be played by children. Both boys and girls in essence like to play with "dolls". Now how they go about playing with them can vary. Some will be violent. Some will be careful. Others will probably just chew on it. Chances are, the boys will be more violent than the girls.

But again, the other person I was arguing with tried to claim that it is genetically hardwired for girls to play with dolls. Which is why me and a few other posters called him/her out on it.
 

JellySlimerMan

New member
Dec 28, 2012
211
0
0
Dragonbums said:
I pointed out that female chimps act the same way and asked who was influencing them. In other words I showed that you were full of shit.
Read the above post.
Also humans are not chimps.
You may want to take a look at Number 1 and 2:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19388_6-things-you-wont-believe-animals-do-just-like-us_p2.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_18766_5-creepy-ways-animal-societies-are-organizing.html

Also a chimp and a young child are mentally the same.
Humans aren't some magical creature that more intelligence than all animals throughout their entire life.
I'm going to just leave this quote right here and let you think about that for a while.
So i take you never heard of Arthur Schopenhauer:
"As a consequence of his monistic philosophy, Schopenhauer was very concerned about the welfare of animals. For him, all individual animals, including humans, are essentially the same, being phenomenal manifestations of the one underlying Will. The word "will" designated, for him, force, power, impulse, energy, and desire; it is the closest word we have that can signify both the real essence of all external things and also our own direct, inner experience. Since everything is basically Will, then humans and animals are fundamentally the same and can recognize themselves in each other. For this reason, he claimed that a good person would have sympathy for animals, who are our fellow sufferers."


Arthur was unique among philosophers because he saw human intellect as no better or different to the instinct of animals.
""Rationality" is sustained only for briefs periods of time, while the will perpetually drives us"

Then perhaps ponder why your dog is too stupid to realize that the object it's chasing is it's own tail.
Ponder why humans in Group A tear down posters of Group B(an act of censorship) and then proceed to claim that preventing them from tearing down posters constitutes an act of censorship against them. Too stupid to realize they are doing the very thing they are protesting against? they must be dogs, right?

"These people believe that preventing them from doing censorship is doing censorship against them... (dumbfound silence) Up is Down. Black is White. Inside is Outside. Left is Right. And Censorship equals Free Speech."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LogicBomb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jz63_lGuSE

Wait, which species is supposed to be the stupid again?
 

doomed89

New member
May 5, 2009
188
0
0
Just thought I'd put the characters I mention that fit his description.

Playable originally written character
Not conventionally attractive/overally sexualized
Unique motivation not for a man or generic motive

1. Now Faith is the first one who comes to mind from Mirror's Edge the only one where she even kinda hits a snag is the attractive one but she has flat tits and ass and well in my mind excluding faith would be asking for a flat out ugly character when faith has to be athletic.

2. Wynne from dragon age origins came to mind too, she's old so not hot, she's playable abeit a more supporting role in a role playing game still playable and she has a unique motivation although it isn't a very interesting one, she hates being in the tower, she hates it any excuse to get out of the tower she takes.

3. Dollface from twisted metal, playable main character in new one, she's wearing a dollmask which I'm sure some people are into but not traditional attractive.

She is a narcissistic, obsessive, and violent woman seeking to become a famous supermodel; to this end, she is willing to do anything, including sabotage and murder of her competition. One day she gets in a car accident, damaging her face. A doctor manages to restore her face except for a tiny scar, which Krysta's vain and paranoid mind interprets as a hideous wound. Irrationally accusing the doctor of working with her competition, she kills him by cutting off his head with a hacksaw.

I'd call that a unique motivation as well.

4? Alice from alice returns and the original also came to mind not hot, doesn't rely on man, unique motivation although I'm not entirely sure if she counts as an originally written character, since it's loosely based on wonderland.

So yeah I found 3 maybe 4 why can he only find one?
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
April Ryan from The Longest Journey and Dreamfall?

She looks perfectly ordinary, a slip of a thing (a physical aesthetic that strongly denotes a character on a slim budget and thus starving their way through university, rather than some aesthetic choice for attractiveness) that dresses in cheap chic in the time-honoured tradition of hungry, poor students everywhere. She stars in the game. And although she has male friends who help her, ultimately it's she who has to come up with all the plans, figure things out, and somehow come out on top.

In Dreamfall she dresses in thick leather garbs. Has a pallid, emaciated face. She has bulked in weight somewhat, giving her a more sturdy, rugged, battle-wearied presence. She has visibly aged, being a 28 year old she no longer has that teenage youthful exuberance or even a healthy skin tone. With grey streaked flesh denoting poor circulation from periodic exposure to the elements.

April Ryan is a character that is... everyone. I wish they kept the cosmetic-less look of the original April Ryan, but when you get down to it her outfit, style, intellect and barbed wit give her the weight of a more asexualized character. A point more poignant that in much of Dreamfall the Azadi believe 'Raven' during the rebellion is actually male, until April introduces herself.

She is also one of the few female characters that display feminine psychology over physical attributes. In short; she seems real when you interact with the world.
 

Lissa-QUON

New member
Jun 22, 2009
206
0
0
bobleponge said:
Lissa-QUON said:
I think people are taking Jim's argument too literally. Like the Bechdel Test this I think this is less a Law of Requirement and more of a "something to keep in mind."
Hell I'm a woman, feminist nerd sort, and some of my favorite movies are stupid sexist things that couldn't even begin to pass the Bechdel test if they tried or cared to. This doesn't make me love these movies less. But I am not saying all movies should be like them.

Being aware of something's flaws doesn't mean you can't still enjoy or love it. But being aware of something's flaws or short comings helps creativity and media as a whole. Creators from a creative standpoint are unwilling to change if they get no criticism and just keep receiving ass pats.

Jim's list of requirements is pretty long but it does make a few good points. The videogame industry doesn't have a lot of female characters that are playable - with more agency than "lost little girl" or "needs a man" - not designed specifically for eye candy - and are allowed to have a depth of character that allows them to be a villian or anti hero.

Our media as a whole has a tendency to not let female characters be rude, crude, disgusting, or criminal. Or when we do we toss in a lot of fan service T&A to balance it out. She's not a murderer, she's a Black Widow. She's not a con artist she's a Honey Trap.

We are told women can't be comedians, women can't be funny, women can't fight. Women are the virgin, the whore, the mother, the daughter, the femme fatale. Women can't be angry messes who just want to punch things because we are having a bad day. Narrative wise we are dragged into the events, because we aren't allowed the agency to go out and do something ourselves. A female character doesn't get to go robbing banks just cause she wants the money, a female character isn't allowed to go joy riding in stolen vehicles with a baseball bat in hand. We have to be dragged and kicked in the dirt to fight back. We have to be given a "do this or you die" alternative.
We don't need that kind of reasonableness in a thread like this! Only petty squabbling about logical fallacies you barely understand are allowed in the thread. Also, it should go without saying that your perspective as a woman has no value in a discussion about women's experiences. Not sure why you even mentioned it.

Now, if we can resume arguing against things we know nothing about, please.


/s
Of course - how silly of me.
I'll just go back to the kitchen and make sandwiches. /s