Jimquisition: Welcoming A Digital Future

FoolKiller

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RoseArch said:
Sorry, Jim, but it isn't quite that simple. A fully digital future is a dire one indeed, because I doubt that even in fifty years, the entire world will have access to an internet that allows them to download gigabytes upon gigabytes. Or to hardware that will store that amount. Cloud gaming? Again, requires a good internet and constant internet connection. As it stands, gaming will have to go the way of music where the market is half hard copy and half digital. That is a good future.
I second that. And add to it that when I download my digital music file, I can use it anywhere on any machine that I want. If I wanted to share it, I could and the music companies accept this hit. This is something that the likes of EA and Ubisoft would refuse so we would still be linked to annoying DRM.

My other problem is what happens when the license runs out on that company. Its stated that the license for XBLA games are stuck to my particular Xbox 360. Once a year I can migrate ALL OF IT to another machine (I guess if it dies) except for the content that Microsoft no longer has the license to. I call bullshit on this as well. I will never have this problem with my NES cartridges for two reasons:
1. If my NES dies, I can use the cartridge on another system
2. I'm on my fourth Xbox 360. My fucking NES is 22 years old and hasn't had a bad day.
 

ChupathingyX

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vxicepickxv said:
Pandemic - Destroy All Humans, Mercenaries, and a few other titles.
*sniff*

...Pandemic Studios...

*wipes away tear*

Also, you should realy add Star Wars: Battlefront II to that list, it was pretty damn popular and still is.
 

Kapol

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May 2, 2010
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Duskflamer said:
To the first part, if you don't play a lot of multiplayer, then you're not likely to get banned, just in general, a vast majority of things you can get banned for have to do with player interactions to my knowledge (which may be limited in this field).

To the second part, I'd not be willing to bank on that after what happened with Anno 2070.

Third, if you don't mind the idea...why are you complaining? Unless you don't think that failing to properly manage your paypal funds constitutes doing something wrong.

Also, Steam locking accounts for that reason is most likely to deter fraud, if a hacker has a method of downloading a game from Steam, modifying it so that it's separated from Steam and doesn't need it to run, there's not much stopping him from just buying a game, hacking it, and canceling the charge to essentially get the game for free if all it would do was remove the game from his account.
The first point ties in with the fact their taking away full access to your games when they close down your Steam/Origin account. Not just the multiplayer you got caught cheating in, but the single player that really doesn't hurt anyone with you playing (unless you include leaderboards, which isn't something I'd consider a large enough deal to grant the companies so much control over your account). And account bans aren't normally recieved for playing games anyways. Cheating in games are normally dealt with by the company who hosts the servers that are played on (VAC bans for Steam games and such).

The second isn't really a point since that's a single game. And, if I'm not mistaken, that's tied to a Ubisoft account who still hold the power to deny access to your game. You could say that it's possible that more games will recieve similar DRM access. That may be true, but with the huge backlash the game got for it, it will be something companies seriously have to consider before choosing to do. And again most of those types of games will likely need to link to some center account to keep track of the activations anyways, so they'd still hold the ability to lock you down without the restrictive DRM.

For the third, I said I don't care if single games are taken away. As it stands, they aren't. Steam just locks out your entire account. And Paypal is far from a perfect system. It's been known to do things like lock out your account if it tracks 'suspicious activity.' If you don't realize something like that's happened, or Paypal makes a more direct action like doing it themselves to make sure they don't lose any money, you're still SoL. Not to mention that customers are only human. If something does happen, why not only remove the game that was charge-backed? It's obviously possible to single out games, as what happened with the DiRT3 incident. Shutting down an entire account is pretty harsh when it's only one purchase that's gone awry.

And here's the problem with your last arguement: hackers can easily do that anyways. Steam accounts are free, and using them to purchase items then do what you suggested would not be difficult at all. Many people have duplicate accounts. That's one of the main issues they had during the christmas event, when farmers would buy a great deal of the Humble indie Bundles for a penny then use them to get gifts to sell/trade later. That's one of the main reasons they ran out of offical gifts before the end of the event and the last bit of it only have Valve games/coupons as prizes.

Not to mention chargebacks don't happen right away. A hacker could buy a lot of games on the Steam account before it does get locked down, meaning he gets to do as he likes. That's one of the problems that's arised from the Steam Trading. People will buy games for trading, then the credit card information will have been false. Steam then removes the game from the people who traded legitimate games' inventory, the account with the fraud will be locked out, but the legitimate gifts will be traded to the person's main account or (normally) sold for cash, which is much more difficult for Steam to track. Though the people who traded things in the system can normally work out a way to get the game, or their items, back. It's still a pain to worry about and one of the main reasons I got out of trading.

For that last part though, it's important to note it didn't happen right after the trade. It normally seemed to happen about a few weeks to a month after the trade had gone through. So it does take time to catch that sort of thing.

And now I've gone off on a rant. Sorry.
 

RandV80

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Zachary Amaranth said:
If only we had a big digital distro network that was comparable to iTunes. Oh wait, we do. It's called Steam. And it hasn't changed pricing structures. It hasn't changed anything. Standard prices on Steam rival brick and mortar stores, the only breaks coming from Steam are sales. And that. Doesn't. Count.

This is a load of crap.
While digital distribution co-exists with physical retail I don't know if it can really change the price, or at the very least not without digital having a good market share for 5-10 years. As long as publishers still need retailers to sell physical copies of the games, the retailers will have the clout to enforce an equal selling price across all platforms. Force them to sell at a higher cost than digital and it likely won't be long until Gamestop goes down the Blockbuster road, and I don't think publishers are ready to throw them under the bus just yet.

But I have to strongly disagree with the Steam sales not counting, why wouldn't they? While they can't sell new games cheaper because they're still tied in with retailers, once the game is no longer new and leaves retail shelves then digital has full control to use creative pricing practices, and the consumer whens big time... assuming they had the patience to wait a while for the games.
 

tzimize

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Whats the name of the shooter from the Video with the guy that seems to zap into peoples minds? Anyone know?

Edit: Also, is it any good?
 

Therumancer

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I'm not sure I agree because the music industry hasn't gone 100% digital. The digital side of the music business is balanced by the continued prescence of a physical product. Not to mention the nature of the product... audio emission, makes it very difficult to limit access since anyone can hear a song being played and with the right equipment capture, clean it up, and duplicate it. Barring some kind of direct-to-brain stimulation music has a practical barrier in that it can only become so expensive given it's nature and the ease of copying it outside of the discs/hardware.

There is also the collector's market for music, records, 8-tracks, CDs, and other physical media have an intristic value that actually increases in many cases, unlike video games... where such things happen very, very rarely and usually represent far more of an exception rather than the rule. To be honest I've long felt that one of the reasons why the gaming industry has wanted to move into digital media so heavily is that despite splattering "collector's edition" on everything they can to demand more money, I think it doesn't want to deal with an actual collector's market on that level which could become quite powerful and wind up leveraging it. Believe it or not as a whole the music industry IS greatly influanced by former market penetration.

I'm probably not articulating this well, or explaining it well enough, but the point is that going entirely digital is a bad thing for consumers.

It's important to note that aside from everything I've said above, media companies have been going out of their way to do everything they can to control the internet and limit the free exchange of information. At the same time they are pushing to go digital, they are also pushing to put themselves into a position where they can't be challenged online.

Right now the endgame seems to be to force the internet into a position where media industries, like the gaming industry, have the power to shut people down pretty much on a whim for their own "protection". When physical media is gone the idea is that all video games will come from digital platforms like STEAM or Origin, which will be the only option so they can feel free to set the prices. They will have the abillity to effectively nuke anyone they even suspect is guilty of an IP violation, with proposed laws that are increasingly going inthe direction of the accused having to prove their innocence as opposed to the accuser to prove guilt, while taking down the site and information in question while things are being decided. This means that these small publishers that might otherwise be "empowered" are ultimatly forced to see the publishers to have their work distributed through their services. Those who buck the system, by running their own sites, and actually get enough exposure and/or a quality product to provide competition can be shut down out of hand since a big company just has to scream wolf, and unleash their highly paid lawyers. Sure, they might lose, but by the time they do the product they were out to squash will be outdated and obselete. People wonder why big companies horde IPs, well this is one of the reasons why, and hot that will be used, the idea being that they can find something similar to what someone they don't like is doing (when the target is weak enough) and launch a suit. Win or lose, by the time things are settled the guy on the receiving end is out of the game, all it would take to knock a lot of these small developers out of the water would be a year or so of inactivity and when it can take months to even get into court after a desist order, while waiting for things to be settled, that's enough.

See, a lot of the current issues we're looking at now all fit together as part of an overall plan. You also have to look at trends, see the industry is heavily invested in things like SOPA and the power it gives, it's a key part of their long term marketing plans. If things like SOPA are stopped, it just means that they will immediatly relaunch the same thing under a differant name, continually hammering the system until they eventually get it through... and honestly at this level it's increasingly about lobbyists than what people actually think. When it comes to business policies like this it's typically a matter of paying off the politicians, and then the politicians themselves spin the desician to convince people that what they did was the right call. That sounds totally borked... but that's what we're looking at.

Those thinking "well, people will never stand for it!" are sort of missing the point. In general gamers have never been able to form a unified front, we whine, but ultimatly spend money on all these "project $10" type schemes, digital content, and games loaded with DRM and malware. The industry ignores us because they get our money anyway... people complain about the lack of dedicated servers for say Modern Warfare 2? Does it matter when the series not only broke records then, but continues to break more and more of them with each installment? The protests over the release of "Left for Dead 2" before the promised support for the firsr game? Does it matter with the number of copies the sequel sold?

The music industry was kind of late to the game, by the time it decided to get really brutal it had already created subtantial groups of people who both could, and would stand against them. Not to mention the nature of their product which doesn't exist entirely inside of a computer (ie it's projected sound... where witgh a game the projections are only part of the whole, you can't get a game by recording just the noise and then cleaning it up). The gaming industry seems to be wise enough to try and prevent this from happening. There isn't even a collector's market buying up CDs, comics, or whatever by the thousands, because things like game cartridges which have increased in value are compairively rare... where really, almost any record that is a couple of decades old is probably worth more than you initially paid for it to someone. Nobody ran out to buy games (and it's now impossible with the physical copies usually just being links to digital services) in hopes they would increase in value, unlike tghe situation with music... and especially comics, where you might see people buying multiple copies of every first issue in hopes that one or more series will be a big deal in a decade or three with the price increasing.... and that is one of the reasons why comics and music are never likely to go entirely digital.
 

Metalrocks

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sure its handy if you can download games, music etc but this still doesnt mean every company has to do it.
like ?A with their spyware origin, forcing people to have it. i will not get my self ME3 just because of this. not on steam..., retail version still requires spyware origin and im not willing to let ?A on my pc so that i can play this game.

but its understandable why bigger companies always spend tones of money in a game because they want to make sure they get more money back. they really lost touch and are afraid of competition since smaller developers make lots of money by making simple games.
 

TwiZtah

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Offtopic in horror here. In Sweden where I live, I have a 24/10 connection/fiber, and it costs us about 25-30$ ofcourse unlimited downloading uploading etc. (there has never been a cap)

I'm horrified by how far back a country like USA is in infrastructure.

Anyway, I'm happy about the digital age, as long as we don't get shit like SOPA/PIPA/ACTA.
 

Metalrocks

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FelixG said:
TwiZtah said:
Offtopic in horror here. In Sweden where I live, I have a 24/10 connection/fiber, and it costs us about 25-30$ ofcourse unlimited downloading uploading etc. (there has never been a cap)

I'm horrified by how far back a country like USA is in infrastructure.

Anyway, I'm happy about the digital age, as long as we don't get shit like SOPA/PIPA/ACTA.
God and here I pay $50 USD a month for standard cable...

..and top out at 8/2

Now I is depressed :(
in australia where i used to live, my connection was a wireless broadband connection and i had to pay 50$ a month and had only 5gb available. downloading was really slow. 100mb took over 45min. 30 min when i was lucky.
 

SensibleCrout

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I skipped most JQ episodes because I did not find the first ones too interesting. They were just stating the obvious, and so does this one. But this one goes on to explain several non-trivial connections and does this in a logical, well-structured way. That earned it a place in my bookmarks so I can give it to anyone who lacks foresight about the future of video game distribution.
 

The White Hunter

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CardinalPiggles said:
SkarKrow said:
Issue: What about console sources? If the major hardware companies go digital only we will pretty much have prices dictated to you. Frankly, who the fuck wants to pay £55 for Bodycount because the publisher said so and SCEE don't give a fuck about us?

EDIT: Before I'm told to get a PC instead, I simply can't afford to get my PC up to snuff and won't be able to for a good 3 or 4 years. So yeah.
Simply don't buy the game, passively boycott any game/franchise/developer/publisher that sells their mediocre shit at extreme prices. This is why I am choosing not to buy Mass Effect 3, because it will not be on Steam and I don't like EA/Origin or even Bioware anymore.
Oh I agree absolutely, I didn't want bodycount (the demo was awful) but it served as the most immediate example to come to mind. I won't pay a stupid price for a game even if it's one I do want. I'm not buying anything from EA until they cut out most of their bullshit, I'll pick up the new SSX when I see it for £10 preowned and refuse to pay for the pass and play with real flesh people in the same room instead. I'm also not buying the Darkness 2 simply because it's another £40 game that lasts 6 hours.

As for Mass Effect 3? 2 bored the hell out of me, and Dragon Age 2 sucked, so yeah, it's a no-go for me.
 

Squidbulb

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SkarKrow said:
Issue: What about console sources? If the major hardware companies go digital only we will pretty much have prices dictated to you. Frankly, who the fuck wants to pay £55 for Bodycount because the publisher said so and SCEE don't give a fuck about us?
Then it will sell poorly and the publisher will be forced to lower the price. I'm pretty sure publishers aren't dumb enough to believe we'll pay any price.
 

Techno Squidgy

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TheKasp said:
Kumagawa Misogi said:
We are approaching the end of increasing computer power now and will probably max it inside the decade.

An example of a technology dead end you say? in atmosphere manned flight speed.

1903 wright brothers first powered manned flight speed 6.82mph

1967 North American X-15 4,519mph

64 years difference between the two and yet 45 years later NO progress.
You are wrong. Several months ago scientists found out a way to store so much data without increasing our storage devices in size that it was unthinkable of. Hundreds of terrabyte. The same goes for processing power and everything, we are not even close to what can be reached in computing technology.
I think they're having problems on the processing aspect at the moment, but it has been a while since I looked into it. They can't cool processors fast enough any more with current designs. I believe there was something about turning processors from flat things into what is essentially an array of blades to make cooling easier, but I struggle to recall and cannae be fecked to look it up.
 

The White Hunter

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Squidbulb said:
SkarKrow said:
Issue: What about console sources? If the major hardware companies go digital only we will pretty much have prices dictated to you. Frankly, who the fuck wants to pay £55 for Bodycount because the publisher said so and SCEE don't give a fuck about us?
Then it will sell poorly and the publisher will be forced to lower the price. I'm pretty sure publishers aren't dumb enough to believe we'll pay any price.
You'd think but some of the prices for games on the EU PSN are simply obscene at release. Nor do they drop within a reasonable time, alot of games at launch on the PSN are £54.99 on the store but £34.99 on Amazon. Even games that have been out a number of years suffer from the issue, Darksiders recently launched on the PSN for £12 when I got my copy a year ago for £8 on disc.

I'd hope they would, but they won't, not for a very long time. EA, Activision, THQ, Ubisoft, they're all dinosaurs and they need to start to understand that sometimes what they offer just isn't worth the price.
 

viranimus

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Nov 20, 2009
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You know Jim, your not exactly wrong. Yes digital distribution can be a good thing. It has that potential to destroy the existing model that has so many problems. That is not the problem. Not at all.

The problem is that in destroying the current industry model you are willingly giving the publishers enough power to compensate and that compensation comes in the form willingly allowing them to take away consumer rights as they utilize digital distribution as a mean to destroy the used market. Now I have discussed this enough times, but apparently it bears repeating. Giving away ownership rights, allowing publishers/developers to hoard all the money from gaming by turning it into a subscription rather than a product is NOT a good thing. It does not matter how it is spun. It does not matter how many positives you can illustrate. It is a bad thing. Yes obviously it hurts the consumer by killing off used/rental markets and we are already seeing that death happen because of how much people have already accepted digital distribution. But it does not end there and this is the painfully truth filled nugget that people want you to not pay attention to because it destroys the counter argument. It literally takes an entire industry and eliminates thousands upon thousands of jobs, between gamestop employees that act as the publishers intended target, to the collateral damage of Shippers, warehouse, physical production, public advertisement, general retail such as target and walmart who stock games (as with no physical games to sell thats a large portion of stock that gets sold daily, so less need for someone to be working that counter, and you can get by with 2 on staff rather than 4) Gamefly would be eradicated as well as a painful chunk out of local businesses still trying to operate under media rental and sooo much more.

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.
Even here this is something that has so much bearing on this situation. Trying to provide the industry security at all the patently false claim that used/piracy/rental markets are all killing the industry by ensuring the money goes to those producing the games we all know and love is NEVER going to give the industry security. It simply cant. Its not possible. You cannot force security into something that either was not in jeopardy, or its problems stem from other underlying internal issues. YOU DONT FIX PROBLEMS BY ZERG RUSHING THEM WITH MONEY! So allowing the profits from a game to be forcefully redirected you wont see some glorious proliferation of that studios performance. Allowing digital distribution to subjugate rights does not cure the disease. Its an example of killing the disease by killing the patient. And when it is all said and done? The industry will be no more healthy (and arguably less healthy) than it is today, yet, in the process people willingly gave up value in the products they were buying, they allowed sub industries to be raped and obliterated, they allowed those who are already more than wealthy enough to use that wealth to eliminate fair and equitable competition. Gutting the variety of options one has to obtain their desired media.

Jim, I think we all understand. your clearly an apple fanboy. Youve made it abundantly clear you adore apple as well as their structure. But tell me Jim, Even though you can buy the stuff you want without having to buy junk you dont, what happens when your tastes change. What happens when you look back on digital purchases you made that make you think, My god, was I on drugs when I decided to buy that? Did I ever really Like that? What is your recourse? Can you sell that embarrassing track out of your list? Do you even have a method to? Yet, even if when you purchased it, even if you bought it on sale, you bought it based on the sale price of a physical comparative that intrinsically has less than half the value. Example. A typical CD runs 12-15 USD. Typically a music CD will house 10-15 music tracks. So just giving a rough estimate, that breaks down to 1$ per track. Much like apples lauded pricing structure. However, you paid 1$ for that track with literally half the value already extracted because part of the value is if you do not like it , you can get some of your value back in trade/sell. So you gladly accepted the base rate of the physical model, with literally half the features extracted. The exact same model holds true with games. Now ask, what benefits does apple receive because of this model? As the service becomes more pervasive do you see the track prices go down? Do you see the removal of apples withholding of the right to suspend your account without reason or recompense? Do you see a better product in any way shape or form? No. But what you do see is more restrictions being placed on what sort of content can be purchased. You see more restrictions on how when where that content can be used. You see apple dictating how its service is used from front to back regardless if its a feature someone was using or not. You see Apple with the freedom to hold your content hostage if they wanted to do so.

So why would anyone willingly promote giving the people putting content in your hands the freedom to do this? They have laws for this. THIS is racketeering and should only be viewed as such. Today its "you keep your content so long as you behave the way we want you to behave", and where will we be a decade from now in this fully digital distribution world? "If you buy this content, you are buying a license that we guarantee for 1 year. We will still charge you the same amount as we did yesterday, but you will have to repay that amount once a year if you expect to continue accessing the license we gave you" And before anyone says anything without actually thinking about this Go check the Origin EULA, Find the provision that dictates that your license can be revoked at any time EA Origin decides to retire content. Its literally racketeering. So the real question at this end is, why is it that the DoJ isnt busting down doors in Redwood city, seizing content, instead of doing it in Hong Kong or New Zealand? Simply put, it is already happening, and it will continue to happen as long as people with more money than sense continue to voluntarily waive their own rights in favor of irresponsible instant gratification.

Honestly I cant get the analogy out of my head. Its almost akin to if the government decided to outlaw sex, in exchange of free access to porn and masturbation as an equal alternative. Thats how people need to start viewing this matter, because that is in essence much closer to the reality than what people with a vested interest in you believing what they tell you is.

So lets not use the same typical argument of "Steam would never do that, they would not piss off their consumers like that" because that argument is simply not valid. We SEE how this is done. Its not some instantaneous switch that gets flicked thus pissing everyone off. Its a slow methodical transition that by the time you notice whats happened its already too late. A decade ago did anyone think it was a realistic possibility for games to be transitioned to a "pay to win" model? Yet after a decade of DRM>DLC>Project 10$> Cutting out content for used buyers> DLC functioning as Pay 2 win.we are starting to see its presence more and more frequently. It can happen, it does happen, It WILL happen, just on such a gradual slope. These are people using foresight. The real problem above all others is that we as consumers, do not use foresight at all.

TL;DR
You know. Honestly I do not oppose digital distribution. It is a great thing for the industry. Last night, I downloaded and installed Civ V in 25 minutes. Literally less time than it would take for me to drive to a physical store and back to purchase a retail copy at roughly about the same cost, with less hassle involved all around. Thats the direction that the industry needs to go. However, We are stopped at progression, and we will continue to remain stopped in that progression until the matter of games being turned into a subscription rather than a product, and exchanging ownership for licensing is resolved. Until all digital property is protected in the same manner as all physical property we CANNOT adopt an industry wide digital distribution platform. If we do, all we accomplish is trading individual freedom the promise of security against a threat that does not actually exist and history has shown us, that simply does not work. And why? All because the people pushing for this know that the MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME crowd has no idea what fiscal responsibility is, Does not care about how their actions will impact everyone, Just so long as you ca give them what they want, they will blindly pay whatever price you ask and wont even care if didnt even give them the same thing as the physical alternative. There is nothing wrong with serving that niche. The problem arises when there are so many of them adopting these illogical practices that it creates a commercial standard operating procedure so as if there are people with enough wits about them to realize the impact of their purchases it wont matter because there will be no alternative.

So Jim. Please. Stop. You of all people being a part of the industry that these people would potentially love to destroy too, should really be more careful in the direction you try to sway public opinion. Its incredibly irresponsible, and uncharacteristically devoid of forethought on the subject. So please lets not go off stopping just short of calling non adopters luddites simply because they do not want to adopt a model that hurts themselves, the industry and ALL commerce as a whole. If you want the industry to get behind digital distribution? Im all for that. But make absolutely certain that the bullshit manipulations in place are completely worked out BEFORE you try to push in that direction, or else you are duping people into trading one theoretical set of problems for a different set of actual problems with infinitely worse effects.
 

Grunt_Man11

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You can try to con me into seeing digital distribution as a totally good thing all you want, but I'm not buying it.

Why? Because digital distribution alienates, and possibly flat-out discriminates, against people who don't have, and often can't get, high speed internet!

For example, back when Blizzard released the 4.0 pre-release patch for World of Warcraft: Cataclysm. The patch was a little over 1 gig in size. It took me two days to download that patch!

Yes that includes the times I had to stop the download so other members of my family could use the internet for e-mail and such. It still counts. I even had it downloading overnight it still took that long to download.

Here's something else too. All that happened before I was forced to downgrade to 1.5 DSL because I had to move.

Imagine how nightmarish downloading a full game would be? The blu-ray disc is getting an upgrade which will increase it's storage space to around 135 gigs. Imagine trying to download a 135 gig game.

If digital distribution becomes the only means of buying games, then a good number of people will be left out simply because of where they live.

"You're not willing to cram yourself into some dinky apartment in big city #1456? Then no games and movies for you! Go tip a cow, you hick!"

Let's not forget about what would happen if all those "evil brick and mortar stores" were forced out of business. Thousands of jobs going bye-bye. Have you seen how things are? The last thing the world needs right now is more job losses!

(You may now thank god for me, Jimmy.)
 

Gunner 51

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Snipermanic said:
God, where is that pink guy with the bent nose and cigar from? That's going to keep me up all night unless I remember
Allow me to answer your question and spare you a sleepless night.
That is Cyril Sneer from the show The Racoons.

Hope this lets you avoid a sleepless night.