Jimquisition: Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

LaochEire

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GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.
 

lacktheknack

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Come over here, then. Steam undercuts retail by $10-$20, and prices fall fast.

You're living in the wrong place.

EDIT: Your above post says "GS Skyrim LE: 29.97"

Here, EBGames sells Skyrim (standard edition) for $60 still.
 

Amir Kondori

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.

I guess people like me installing Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once are sort of what justified that. Again, the openness of the PC platform dictates that gates have to be closed somewhere. The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity, and since it is all circumvented eventually anyway, it makes making that DRM appealing in some way to buy into even more of a necessity. Steam's greatest achievement is that it has made people WANT games to use Steam; it has made people WANT a DRM-flavoured copy of their games. Huh.
To be fair you CAN still do that. You just have to trust your account to those people. You have to sign in to Steam on that machine, have it remember your credentials, then download and install the game. Then put Steam in offline mode and there you go.
In fact, you could even change your password right after that and tell them "if you ever go out of offline mode then the games won't work but otherwise you're golden."
 

GAunderrated

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LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.

Fair enough but if you just are looking for sales only on steam and not using the entire PC market, you are missing out on some great deals. Nothing wrong with it I just think its a waste
 

LaochEire

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Mar 9, 2010
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GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.

Fair enough but if you just are looking for sales only on steam and not using the entire PC market, you are missing out on some great deals. Nothing wrong with it I just think its a waste
I have over 100 games on Steam all bought during the sales. I'm just saying if I want to go out and buy COH 2, or any new game released I cannot get it on Steam because the price is anywhere between 10-20 euro in difference. Sometimes I don't feel like waiting 6 months to a 1 year to play a game I badly want to play.
 

grumpymooselion

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I find it funny people say Gamestop undercuts Steam when most PC titles aren't ever sold at my local gamestops, outside of a very few AAA titles, there isn't a PC gaming section at all in any of the three gamestops near me. And, usually, the prices are that 59.99 new release price, which does drop, but doesn't ever seem to drop any faster than the Steam equivalents, and a random Steam sale consistently blows any rare price difference of the water when it happens, and Steam sales seem to happen quite a lot.

Even when my local gamestops do carry those AAA titles, there's never a rack for them, they're always hidden behind the counter - you have to ask for them specifically. There is no actual PC gaming section at any of my three local gamestops.
 

Entitled

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I know, I know, GOG, Amazon, etc, but many titles require Steamworks to operate, so I think that falls flat. I mean, I like GOG, but it shouldn't be a method to excuse the fact that we have a monopolistic platform on PC as well.
Only in the realm of legal fiction.

I think it's an important factor to take it into account, that even though Valve might have a formal monopoly on controlling acces to certain titles, in practice, if their audience chooses to go around that monopoly, then unlike consoles, all that Valve can do is... shake their fists in the general direction of Sweden, and feel really mad about it.

I mean, sure, you can make arguments about how used sales are morally different from piracy either by the virtue of following legal alloances or by different commercial effects, but te end result is, that PC gaming has a rather popular established culture where in effect, most forms of playing a game without paying for it, (from lending to used sales), are serverd by piracy, even for those who otherwise also buy games.
 

Whoracle

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I've got just one addendum to this video:

PC DOESN'T get away with it. Simple as that. The reason why the DRM stuff on PC is like it is today is twofold: 1) Competition yadda yadda. Watch the video about that one. 2) Back when it was introduced, people had an alternative. The CONSOLES. They could (and did, oh boy, did they) vote with their wallets, leaving those that genuinely didn't care about DRM behind. Those left behind were fought over by the varous storefronts, and that's why the environment on PC is so (relatively) healthy today. If there hadn't been an alternative, PC wouldn't have been allowed to do that. Period.
 

Trishbot

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I can't even begin to tell you how much I wish I could do mods on my games. Seeing what people have done to games like Oblivion and Skyrim is incredible.

I used to use things like Game Genies, Gamesharks, and Action Replays, but modern systems pretty much block them, meaning I can't screw around with the games code like I used to.

All that being said, I REALLY wish we could get PC prices... or at least all that free DLC. Microsoft are total scrooges.
 

GAunderrated

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LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.

Fair enough but if you just are looking for sales only on steam and not using the entire PC market, you are missing out on some great deals. Nothing wrong with it I just think its a waste
I have over 100 games on Steam all bought during the sales. I'm just saying if I want to go out and buy COH 2, or any new game released I cannot get it on Steam because the price is anywhere between 10-20 euro in difference. Sometimes I don't feel like waiting 6 months to a 1 year to play a game I badly want to play.
On release I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks from Green Man Gaming which had a steam activation code. Again you are free to purchase it where you want but you are missing out on great deals but not checking out all your options. :)
 

Clovus

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I think an important point here is that PC's do not have DRM. Yes, Steam, Origin, and many games themselves have DRM, but the actual PC doesn't. You can buy tons of games with no DRM. The level of DRM on PC is able to change based on the market - it's not dictated by a single source company like Microsoft or Sony. If a publisher decides to drop a DRM system, it's gone.
 

scott91575

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Mr Cwtchy said:
This video is basically one big, slobbery blowjob for PC gaming. Shouldn't have expected anything less from The Escapist I suppose, but it certainly does remind me why I stopped watching the Jimquisition.

If you're going to claim that DRM is bad, or that abandoning used games is bad(like people have been doing here for the longest time, mostly against consoles of course), you'd better fucking be consistent about it. The surrounding circumstances, like all that crap about community features, modding and everything else is disconnected and not relevant to the discussion.

Your little whinefest about people criticising Valve and Steam was amusing, apparently expecting them to be held to the same standards of everyone else is out of order. They get far less flak when they pull the same shit as companies like EA than they should. Your own 'criticism' of the issues with PC gaming were as half-assed as remotely possible.

In short, as usual you're talking bullshit, and honestly I'd rather I hadn't wasted my time watching one guy's verbal lapdance for the PC.
I think you are missing the point. PC can get away with those restrictions due to the plusses you get with PC gaming. They may not be directly tied together, but when you add up the plusses and minuses it comes out as an overall positive for many consumers. Consoles would not be able to get away with those practices because if they implement them, why would anyone get a console? Used games and lack of DRM are pretty much the two main plusses consoles have over a PC. Once you get rid of those plusses and add in negatives (he explicitly stated this, guess you missed it) then all you are left with is negatives. It would literally kill the consoles. I stated this same exact thing to XBox fanboys who defended Microsoft's now former tactics. They all slobbered over it like it was supposed to be the future, and I explained how I can do everything Microsoft showed in their press conferences right now on a PC (or will be able to soon since Kinect is coming to the PC) while having a mostly open platform with competing digital distribution, dedicated servers ran by the community, mods, multiple programs for communication, tons and tons of peripherals that can take tons of different forms, free multiplayer, and on and on and on. It was amazing how clueless many console fans are when it comes to PC's. Heck, I have been switching between TV and games or even split screen between the two for about 5 years, yet XBox fanboys creamed themselves when they saw it. The only unique thing was the Kinect interface, yet that will be coming to PC too.

Anyway, to sum it up, you missed the point. PC can get away with it because PC gaming offers a wide array of benefits to the consumer not seen on consoles. Consoles simply cannot implement those same strategies because they just don't have enough benefits over PC gaming once you implement those restrictions. I know what you are getting at, and that is DRM is not needed on PC either. Yet PC gamers are willing to put up with those restrictions due to the tons of benefits that comes with PC gaming. The same could not be said with console gaming.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Jim, I enjoyed this video immensely.

I was wondering what kind of role you believe that really poor average internet speeds play in hindering the establishment of the digital market in all its glory? I was just mentioning this in another thread but take Uncharted 3 for example. It is 40 GBs in size and nearly took an entire day of downloading just to get it into my console. Not only that, but because it was 40GB and my console was a 75GB model, I had to delete nearly all of my content just to get it on there (it actually needed 15GB more space than 40GB just to get there). The 500GB hard drives are better, but with a ps3 game being 40GB I'd assume that next gen games could become 3 times that file size without much trouble. This was a significant hassel and is even still burdensome with Steam on titles that are in the 10GB range.

I posit, and you may correct me if I'm wrong, that enough HDD space and fast enough download times (coupled with the reasonable business practices you mentioned) are the biggest problem facing the full adoption of digital downloads these days. With uncharted I could have gone to a store and been back within 30 minutes and probably would have had a cheaper price tag than the PSN's pricing. I also wouldn't have had to delete other content to run it. The problem now isn't just that there's little or no benefit to it. It's that the time consumed is an outright negative.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I mean, I like GOG, but it shouldn't be a method to excuse the fact that we have a monopolistic platform on PC as well.
Exactly. GOG shouldn't be used as an excuse for Steam, it should used as a large hammer to beat Valve around the head with.
 

LaochEire

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GAunderrated said:
On release I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks from Green Man Gaming which had a steam activation code. Again you are free to purchase it where you want but you are missing out on great deals but not checking out all your options. :)
Well, judging from the front page, GMG is still more expensive than GS. For Americans, Steam or other sites like GMG may be cheaper, but over here the prices do not equate to value. You're not wrong. I'm not saying what you're saying is incorrect, my argument is Steam (and others) are great, but not for all of us.

I do most of my gaming on PS3 these days. Most games drop on Amazon UK to under ?30 after 3-4months after release. Plus, there are other issue that turned me off PC gaming, but that's for another thread.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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grumpymooselion said:
There is no actual PC gaming section at any of my three local gamestops.
And this is the reason that Digital Distribution took off on the PC. With retailers basicall abandoning PC gaming there was no other legal alternative for PC gamers to get their games. A lot of us were dragged kicking and screaming into it and some of us still prefer to buy physical copies where possible... but the fact remains, PC gamers latched onto digital distribution because all our local games retailers were offering, if anthing at all, maybe 10 different AAA titles, a Warcraft III Battlechest and a stack of shitty $5 "value" games that wouldn't even make the cut on a phone these days. PC games went from half the shelf space to a few shelves to a musty box behind the toilet in the space of a few years... Any wonder that digital distribution worked?
 

scott91575

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Whoracle said:
I've got just one addendum to this video:

PC DOESN'T get away with it. Simple as that. The reason why the DRM stuff on PC is like it is today is twofold: 1) Competition yadda yadda. Watch the video about that one. 2) Back when it was introduced, people had an alternative. The CONSOLES. They could (and did, oh boy, did they) vote with their wallets, leaving those that genuinely didn't care about DRM behind. Those left behind were fought over by the varous storefronts, and that's why the environment on PC is so (relatively) healthy today. If there hadn't been an alternative, PC wouldn't have been allowed to do that. Period.
I think that is the point. The reason people go to consoles is so they don't have to deal with DRM and they can sell their games. Get rid of that, and what do you have left? A locked down PC with all the bull and none of the benefits. Hence why consoles simply cannot do it.

As for the PC, the market downturn was greatly exaggerated. This is due to one fact, digital distribution. The sales reports simply had no way to count digital downloads. They still don't, but at least now they estimate. Back when DD was first ramping up, places like NPD reported PC gaming was losing revenue. The simply fact was, PC gaming wasn't. The money was just shifting from physical store sales to DD. Once they started taking those into account (still not well done or completely accurate but better than nothing) you started seeing the PC gaming industry look like it was making some sort of massive comeback. The fact is, PC gaming was not dying and is now thriving better than ever thanks to many of the things mentioned in Jim's video.
 

Valkrex

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
I think it may be a regional thing. Here in the United States, day one releases on Steam will either be identical in price to that of game stop, or even up to $10 cheaper.