Jimquisition: Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

LaochEire

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Evilpigeon said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
A chunk of it is due to you using steam in Euros. Steam doesn't like Euros. For example Company of heroes 2 is £39.99 which is cheaper. You might want to look at trying to change your location to the UK to get better deals.

Skyrim legendary is £24.99

Bioshock infinite is £29.99

Rome 2 is currently £29.99 on steam :D
Crazy, why are they shafting the Euro crowd? Although the pound to Euro puts them on equal footing with GS give or take a few cents. COH2 is on sale on the UK store, now how is that fair to everyone else?

Doesn't matter now anyway, I do most of my gaming on PS3 now. Only go on PC for RTS and Strategy gaming.
 

Whoracle

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hermes200 said:
I works because Irrational did some work on the original code to work on modern PC/Mac via the gog system; which is nice, but not different than if some developers try to resell a 360 game on XBox One after they recompile it with the new SDK. The point is, it requires some work on the developer side, otherwise it won't happen... ever.
This is false. Some guys over at TTLG did it, and have been since the Windows 2k/XP days, which, due to their differing kernelhad problems running dark engine games out of the box.Nothing a /lgntforce couldn't handle back on win2k, though. Gog just packaged it.

If I can take my copy of Descent or FX Fighter and make them run decently on my Windows 7, quad core PC, I will admit the superiority of the PC as a platform in terms of preserving past games for future generations. Otherwise, it might have some advantages, but it is not better than most consoles in that regard.
I don't know FX Fighter, but my Gold Games version of Descent runs. Via DOSBox, granted, but the fact that such software even EXISTS is a major boon and something you just can't do on Consoles. You're confusing Backwards Compatibility, NATIVE Backwards Compatibility, and Rereleases.
 

Dragonbums

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Jim, you are a patronising, condescending arsewipe of a human being and I hope you choke on what I'm sure you regard as the beautiful, beautiful taste of your own excrement.
I'm not really a person to make a comment that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but Hate to say it dude, while you brought up good points in the rest of your argument, you can criticize someone without using vulgar insults such as this one.
 

Dragonbums

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Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
 

EvilRoy

The face I make when I see unguarded pie.
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Jan 9, 2011
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hermes200 said:
scott91575 said:
hermes200 said:
Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
If you have an old copy it won't run well on a modern operating system, but you can still get a copy of a current operating system that allows compatibility mode. There are ways to do it. It's not always easy, but there are ways. For consoles it's impossible. Just simply not going to happen no matter how hard you try.
EvilRoy said:
I bought sys shock 2 the other day on GOG, it has been running no problem for me about 3 hours in.
I works because Irrational did some work on the original code to work on modern PC/Mac via the gog system; which is nice, but not different than if some developers try to resell a 360 game on XBox One after they recompile it with the new SDK. The point is, it requires some work on the developer side, otherwise it won't happen... ever.

If I can take my copy of Descent or FX Fighter and make them run decently on my Windows 7, quad core PC, I will admit the superiority of the PC as a platform in terms of preserving past games for future generations. Otherwise, it might have some advantages, but it is not better than most consoles in that regard.
It has been mentioned down the page by a different poster, but it was actually a fan made patch that allows system shock 2 (and thief 2) to run on current machines. GOG/Irrational may have taken a look at the patch to make sure there was nothing that would murder a computer user in there, but the work had already been done before it was set up for official digital distribution.
 

Reeve

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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
 

nogoodreason

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Any chance of a list of all the games shown in that video? I recognised Witcher 2 and Portal 2 but none of the others. Particularly interested to know what that 'dude walking through frozen time mid-explosion' thing was as it looked really cool.
 

sorsa

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Jim, you never fail to brighten up my day with your clever mix of journalism and sarcasm. Rock on forever!
 

targren

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Machine Man 1992 said:
Holythirteen said:
Console gamers are running out of excuses to not go PC.
You mean beisdes prohibitive cost?
You can build a middling gaming-PC, on par with console experience, for the same or less than the cost of an XBone.

Or the fact that some of us have an extensive console library already?
Irrelevant. Whether you build a gaming PC or buy the next gen of consoles, you won't be able to play those without the old console you already own.

Or the unspoken guarantee that a game put in a console will work, every time?
Unspoken, and not particularly true.


All that said, I have to disagree with Jim on this one. I know he's more forgiving of PC DRM, but the fact is that Steam is just as bad as Origin in that your only choices are to agree to whatever they might feel like jamming into the TOS, or your library is forfeit (Origin is more obnoxious about this so far, but Steam's done it too). But for some reason he glossed over one of the big arguments against the XBone: anyone with a bad/no internet connection is screwed. Now that you get titles like DX:HR and Borderlands 2 coming with steam even on the physical disc (there are many more examples, those are just the ones I can think of that I wanted but passed on) has those people just as screwed.
 

kajinking

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PunkRex said:
kajinking said:
PunkRex said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Me to, I REALLY miss backwards compatability... I also have no experience with gaming PC's so I found this vid quit informative, thanks Jim.
That is one of the better parts of PC, I can install and play games from 10+ years ago on my system without having to do much.

I don't have my PS2 around the house but want to play GTA:SA? Download the PC version and get playing within 5 minutes!

Gaming PCs seem scary as hell when you first get them and get into them (I was terrified the first time I had to pop the case open to deal with something inside) but once you get the hang of it it's not all that badf.
Well, when you say it like that it doesn't sound badf at all.
I really gotta re-read my stuff before posting LOLf.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

The Xbox One no longer enforces restrictions on used games, but the debate over console DRM is not over. One lingering question is this -- why are consoles criticized, but PC gets away with it?
I think it's more that nobody (who counts) cares about PC gaming.
 

Dragonbums

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Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.
 

SoDaRa

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the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
The WiiU is actually cheaper than $400 at its most basic set and does have games that the PC will probably never have. So the WiiU does have that going for it.
 

Reeve

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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?
 

Kinitawowi

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scott91575 said:
Now I understand why Jim sounds so frustrated.

It's not that DRM and no used games are part of the things he listed. It's the fact the plusses allow them to add in some negatives and still have it a net overall gain for many users vs. other platforms. It may not be ok for you, and that is fine. Yet, obviously, there are many people who are willing to put up with the DRM and lack of used games in order to take advantage of what the PC can offer. Those same plusses are not available on consoles, so they cannot add in a negative like DRM and eliminate used game. They don't have that luxury.

I have stated this over and over again in this thread. I have no idea why you people cannot fathom that. If DRM destroys any experience for you, then sure, PC gaming not for you. Yet PC gaming offers other plusses that offset that minus for many people. Consoles do not have those added plusses and therefore have less leeway in adding restrictive measures. The consoles simply don't have the added plusses to offset any additional negative features. In order for the consoles to add a negative feature they needed to offset that feature with a positive even though neither is a requirement for the other. From what we saw, there simply were not enough added positives for the consumer to accept a negative addition.
But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.

I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.
 

Dragonbums

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Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

You see where I'm getting at here?
 

SoDaRa

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The WiiU is backward compatible with the Wii, so I don't know what he'd talking about when he says none of the systems are backward compatible anymore. Also, I bought Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath last December and I still can't play it nor can I find a patch for it. :\ Plus, I could probably think of several PC games that just won't work on modern systems due to them not being backward compatible. And as OSs change, more games will have this problem. Sure GOG is releasing old ones for modern systems, but they can't get to every game and there are sure to be some that just fall through the cracks of time.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that backward-compatibility, or rather the preservation of older games is still a really big issue facing the medium, just like how film had the same problem when the first films ever made weren't preserved and were lost in time. Although I must say I'm really glad with how Nintendo is at least trying to preserve their older titles, if only for the present. Sony has done very little in this regard and I constantly fear for the day my old PS2 discs just stop working.
 

Dragonbums

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Kinitawowi said:
scott91575 said:
Now I understand why Jim sounds so frustrated.

It's not that DRM and no used games are part of the things he listed. It's the fact the plusses allow them to add in some negatives and still have it a net overall gain for many users vs. other platforms. It may not be ok for you, and that is fine. Yet, obviously, there are many people who are willing to put up with the DRM and lack of used games in order to take advantage of what the PC can offer. Those same plusses are not available on consoles, so they cannot add in a negative like DRM and eliminate used game. They don't have that luxury.

I have stated this over and over again in this thread. I have no idea why you people cannot fathom that. If DRM destroys any experience for you, then sure, PC gaming not for you. Yet PC gaming offers other plusses that offset that minus for many people. Consoles do not have those added plusses and therefore have less leeway in adding restrictive measures. The consoles simply don't have the added plusses to offset any additional negative features. In order for the consoles to add a negative feature they needed to offset that feature with a positive even though neither is a requirement for the other. From what we saw, there simply were not enough added positives for the consumer to accept a negative addition.
But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.


I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.
I believe the title of the video is why "PC Gets Away with it" not "Why Do PC gamers Tolerate DRM"
 

Reeve

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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

You see where I'm getting at here?
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.
I know. However most people don't want to have to buy their games digitally because it apparently violates their petty sense of ownership of the game. Whereas people don't buy cars, TVs, monitors, heating, cooling etc for a reason as ridiculous as that.