Jimquisition: Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Jimothy Sterling

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Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Well, Microsoft went and did it. It took the step publishers have fantasized over for years, and destroyed the concept of videogame ownership.

Watch Video
 

Varya

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Thank God for you Jim Sterling. Serious catharsis just looking at this video
 

sturryz

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The Xbox Two will require you to wear an ankle brace that has to connect to the internet every 12 hours or the the ankle brace blows your leg off.
 

Fappy

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Soviet Heavy said:
Nice use of the Sarif Industries promotion when you talked about ownership and control.
I liked that too.

OT: 12 minutes until the hour of reckoning. I have a feeling Jim's next E3 episode will be 90% Microsoft.
 

kajinking

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I was honestly expecting this to come out AFTER the Xbox E3 thing.

You know...just in case the situation isn't actually all that bad and everything has been blow out of HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
 

Andy Shandy

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Jun 7, 2010
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Ah, there's nothing like an episode of the Jimquisition when you've been particularly riled up, Jim.
 

Xman490

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I, as a singular person (and NOT for One), am boycotting the Microsoft E3 conference because of their horrible DRM. If Sony doesn't plunge down that rabbit hole, I think people are justified in becoming/remaining PlayStation fanchildren.
 

V TheSystem V

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Anyone even considering ordering one of these machines needs to watch this video.

This generation, I have supported Nintendo and Microsoft. Nintendo had its heart in the right place, but couldn't provide enough quality content to satisfy me (great but scarce first party products, rather lazy third party products). Microsoft did what Nintendo couldn't, offering great online gameplay and some great experiences, whilst having some amazing third party products.

Now, they're expecting our loyalty to see them through the next generation of consoles, and it isn't going to work because no gamer gets a games console to watch TV and take away their game ownership.

Seriously, fuck you, Microsoft. Fuck you and your policies, fuck you and your big headedness, and fuck you. Just...fuck you.

If Sony have taken all the #PS4NoDRM campaigning to heart and keep to their (rather vague) word about pre-owned games and online connectivity, I will be very, very happy.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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hehe, good one, here we are sharpening our pitchforks and oiling out torches..

Well I'm crossing my fingers so Sony makes a stand for consumers... hah yeah that's gonna happen...
I have vowed.. that if they adhere to this bullshit, I won't buy their consoles, not even if they announce The last Guardian with a release date.

So.. it's WeeYOU and PeeCee for me, I guess... I'm a bit sad though.. there is a certain ritual to playing on the console that I will miss.

And thanks Jim, I often disagree and find you a bit over the top.. but it's still good that you put this issues forward.
 

timboo_drow

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I have to agree with Marcus Beer when he says that the worst thing that can happen at this E3 is for MS to get up there and promise a bunch of fantastic looking games and all is forgiven. I think that's why they timed this announcement, so that it can get swept away in the news cycle of the games they are developing. It sucks, because they will be games that I will miss out on unless they make their way to Steam or the WiiU.
 

TheSapphireKnight

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The whole 'check in every 24 hours' is more insulting than a constant internet connection honestly. And as much as I would like to see the xbone totally flop(at least at the start) and force MS to remove the 24 hour requirement, somehow I doubt most average people will care.

A constant connection is almost guaranteed to have issues which would irritate even the average consumer, but the 24 hour thing will probably fly under the radar of most people.

That said I still feel it is likely that the new xbox will become basically stuck to the US(and limited even more to larger Metro areas) while the Sony, Nintendo, and the PC overall will have the rest of the world.
 

Sehnsucht Engel

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I loved that intro, made me laugh until I coughed. Good episode. Hopefully we all get to see the Xbone crash and burn in an entertaining way.
 

Something Amyss

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THANK YOU for making the point about Gamestop. I don't know why anyone's naive enough to think this hurts Gamestop.

sturryz said:
The Xbox Two will require you to wear an ankle brace that has to connect to the internet every 12 hours or the the ankle brace blows your leg off.
This will be marketed as a necessary feature of Kinect 3.0, and in fact Kinect will be part of the mandatory check-in process.

Additionally, you will need special dispensation for Microsoft to leave the general vicinity of your Xbox. If you are vacationing, you may transfer your license to a different Xbox 2 for a fee, or use a limited number of annual "offline vouchers" if you won't be near one.

Microsoft will laud these options as generous" and 80% of the consumer market will say they "don't mind" and it's "not that bad."
 

Thaluikhain

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Meh...shoddy practice, but then its not like there isn't a massive games industry beyond this one platform. Certainly, there seems to be a worrying trend, but plenty of indy gaames, or even abandonware.
 

Antari

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I really can't wait to start seeing some numbers on how bad this hurts them.
 

the_soflo_guy

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Well I just got back from Gamestop, (pick up some cheep "used" Wii game to play over the summer.) I was talking with the clerk about the Xbox, I was saying this time around I was going to get a new Xbox, but after hearing all the BS Micro Soft is pulling I'm not even going to waist my time or money with them. sadly because I am a big support of Microsoft and the work with windows PC, network servers & office, (I am in college going for IT so I taking a lot of MS course) but after windows 8 this year and now the new Xbox BS, my respect for microsoft is dropping. I might just install Linux on my PC :p. But here is an FYI, the Gamestop clerk did say the Microsoft did make a agreement with them that the used game fee will be waved and the data to your account gets wipped when you trade a game into gamestop. so it look like Gamestop will not be effected by the Xboxs used game police. again this was just the store clerk saying it, so it all might not be true.
 

Fractral

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Great episode, but I'm slightly worried that we won't see anything but the Xbone in the next couple of Jimquisitions. Not that I don't hate the Xbone and all it stands for, but a little variety is nice now and again.
 

Kuilui

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If only this video could be shown on screen at the E3 conference while Microsoft is up on stage trying to convince everyone that being treated like a criminal and not being allowed to own the things they buy is really super awesome we promise because ummm, TV!

A problem I don't think many people have really sunk their teeth into yet is the end game of the xbox one. What happens when the servers for the Xbox One inevitably are permanently taken offline? With no authentication servers I guess your Xbox one would be rendered useless and your games unplayable. Maybe you'd be forced to buy the Xbox Two in order to keep owning your...holy... their trying Zune again. Keep paying or all the stuff you bought is gone! Sure you don't need xbox live to play the games I assume(so the zune model isn't immediately obvious) but eventually you'll have to fork over more money to buy xbox two unless you want your expensive game collection to go bye bye. Well that's my theory anyway and with the frankly disturbing things Microsoft is doing, would what I said surprise anyone if it came true?
 

Darken12

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Thank you for the man-ass, Jim. It was lovely.

Oh, and the entirety of the rest of the video. You say the things that need to be said, when they need to be said, and to the people that need to hear it (everyone). We couldn't ask for more.
 

Something Amyss

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TheSapphireKnight said:
A constant connection is almost guaranteed to have issues which would irritate even the average consumer, but the 24 hour thing will probably fly under the radar of most people
Keep in mind, they're offering the power of MacLeod...Sorry, of THE CLOUD to "quadruple the power" of the Xbox One. This means there will be games (and I bet a lot of them) that literally require an online connection to run. Even single-player games, I bet.

Also, depending on the way check-ins are handled, this could be a fairly big deal without always online. But mostly, the cloud bit.



"There can be only ONE!"
 

Wyvern65

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Not as good as I was expecting. The snark and rage was spot-on, but it's kind of getting old already. I guess I was hoping for more insight into how you see this actually playing out. Moar screaming about precisely how and why the XBone sucks contributes essentially nothing new or positive to the discussion.

I'm sure it felt good though! Self-righteous indignation for a good cause usually does.

I'm pretty sure Gamestop/Game will come to regret this, no matter how useful it is for them in the short term. Sure it will wipe out all of their competition, but then they'll stand alone and be much easier targets.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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sturryz said:
The Xbox Two will require you to wear an ankle brace that has to connect to the internet every 12 hours or the the ankle brace blows your leg off.
God you anti corporate liberals will complain about everything. It's only a leg. Who cares when I can get my dew and game on and play the amazing games like call of duty animal kingdom edition now with 5 THAT's RIGHT 5 new pixels per square meter.

Honestly though I want Microsoft to fail so badly because of this but I'm kinda worried they won't. Oh well High ho high ho it's off to PC I go.
 

Legion

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Sadly none of this will stop people causing it to sell out on day one. Too many people will want it just so they can play the next COD or because "Everybody else is getting one".

Even worse is that despite all of this hatred, people will still eventually get won over anyway, and by the next generation, such things will have become the norm, not worth getting worked up about.
 

Hazy992

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Just out of curiosity Jim, if you didn't need one for your job would you even be considering an Xbox One?

Saying that, do you even want to cover something so flagrantly anti-consumer?
 

DTWolfwood

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Would be nice to see the gaming press to show a bit of solidarity to the consumer by not covering the system and its exclusives upon release.

Having it die a pitiful death from lack of coverage is the best way to say fuck you to Microsoft and their new xbox.

I'll do my part in not buying the system, but alas me and my kind only make a small percentage of xbox customers. :(
 

DrunkOnEstus

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He'll buy one to review games on, and so will every other journalist who's "mad" about this, and we'll think of this "bullshit" like business as usual, just as we do with online passes, on-disc DLC, and everything else we deal with today.
 

Urh

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DTWolfwood said:
Would be nice to see the gaming press to show a bit of solidarity to the consumer by not covering the system and its exclusives upon release.

Having it die a pitiful death from lack of coverage is the best way to say fuck you to Microsoft and their new xbox.

I'll do my part in not buying the system, but alas me and my kind only make a small percentage of xbox customers. :(
And what would happen to said gaming press if publishers were to pull all their advertising in a show of solidarity to the Xbone?
 
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Fappy said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Nice use of the Sarif Industries promotion when you talked about ownership and control.
I liked that too.

OT: 12 minutes until the hour of reckoning. I have a feeling Jim's next E3 episode will be 90% Microsoft.
Not if Sony takes that opportunity to horrify us. Then Microsoft's blunders can become old news. I find it strange that Sony wouldn't jump on the same bandwagon because their competition, the XBOne, is giving gaming companies what they have been dreaming about for about a decade.

Jim's dismissal of the Wii U is strange to me. It seems to be precisely what he's been wanting for consoles for a long time. Less focused on graphics that make the games expensive, the games you buy are still yours and it included a system of input that can be used to good and that he praised the restraint it was being used with by the early titles. There are few games for it because game developers are pricks who don't want to make games for it.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Loki_The_Good said:
sturryz said:
The Xbox Two will require you to wear an ankle brace that has to connect to the internet every 12 hours or the the ankle brace blows your leg off.
God you anti corporate liberals will complain about everything. It's only a leg. Who cares when I can get my dew and game on and play the amazing games like call of duty animal kingdom edition now with 5 THAT's RIGHT 5 new pixels per square meter.

Honestly though I want Microsoft to fail so badly because of this but I'm kinda worried they won't. Oh well High ho high ho it's off to PC I go.
So wait you hate jim's followers but you agree with them. LOL good enough for me. when party lines can't even cause people to like the x box you gotta know your boned.
 

xPixelatedx

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Jimothy Sterling said:
If gamestop hasn't already come out
Yes Jim, Gamestop already did already come out with a giant hadron for the Xbox One. They loved the new Xbox before it was even announced:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/xbox-720-a-very-hot-compelling-device-says-gamestop-6406315

And I tried (I really did) to bring people's attention to this because you could smell the rancid stank of shenanigans a mile away.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.408606-Gamestop-conspiracy#17073693
Sadly, I don't think many people noticed or listened.

So I will just come out and say yet again to all the escapist:
I WARNED YOU! ...not that we could have done anything about it, but I did warn you haha.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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I honestly think the Xbox One and PS4 are going to lead to another video game crash. I mean look what happened to the Guitar Hero rhythm games: over saturated with increasingly poor games and boom. Dead. Haven't seen anyone play one of those games in what...two years? Two and a half?
The same thing will happen to this new generation. Sony and Microsoft are going to alienate SO many customers that the generation flops and dies. I love my 360 and my PC. I've been a loyal Microsoft supporter for many, many years. But this new Xbox is many steps too far. I won't buy it. Maybe I'll get the PS4, but only if its a reasonable price(like...less that $350. Any more and I'll get a new laptop) and FREE backwards compatibility. If I own a game, I want to be able to play it without paying a fee! Microsoft really screwed the pooch on this one. I can't imagine the executives that came up with the Xbox One thought they would be lauded as innovative heroes, rescuing us for our miserable lives of only being able to socially interact with our tablets, phones, current consoles and PCs.
 

Machine Man 1992

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Legion said:
Sadly none of this will stop people causing it to sell out on day one. Too many people will want it just so they can play the next COD or because "Everybody else is getting one".

Even worse is that despite all of this hatred, people will still eventually get won over anyway, and by the next generation, such things will have become the norm, not worth getting worked up about.
NOOOOOOOOOOOPE!

I won't allow it. This thing is a travesty, an abomination unto the most basic concepts of ownership. I'll plaster flyers all over stores that sell them informing people about what this thing does if I have to. It cannot be allowed to succeed, it must be smothered in the crib, for the good the games indus- No, basic fucking consumer rights.

(Also, what anime is your avatar from?)
 

I.Muir

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Getting some use out of that rubber fist I see
I just want to see the whole industry burn so we can have a re do
and there is ALWAYS the pc
 

Jaeger_CDN

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Jman1236 said:
Even if sony pulls this same stunt, at least nintendo is still here to save us.
Sony won't have a choice if they want anything other than 1st party exclusives.

Do you really think the reason EA pulled the online pass thing was because they knew this crap wasn't coming down the pipes? If Sony wants any EA or even Ubisoft games on their system they have to toe the line on this DRM scheme.

As for Nintendo, EA pretty much said that even developing for the WiiU is a meh-maybe thing
 

Luminos564

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*Sigh* I feel like I traveled into a Bizarro version of our world. I keep punching myself to see if I am still dreaming, but it turns out I am not. I'd have thought companies that existed to make money understood that if you piss off your customers, you won't get their money. A part of me hopes the XboxOne flops so hard that Microsoft is forced into fixing the complaints within weeks. But chances are this will not happen as there are still people out there who will buy the console regardless of these issues.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Lol.! Yup, they are approaching the perfect seller's world when you buy anything and own nothing. It's ironic that COnsole gaming has now surpassed PC gaming in terms of obnoxious drm. I mean sure, there's still having the cd, cd keys and always online services like steam but steam and greenman at least pay rent as it were. and GoG doesn't even bother with drm.

I the fact is MS has already shot itself in the foot, but now it's set to get the one it missed. Seriously.
 

Looming_Shadows

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WHAT IS THIS GOLDEN TIE HERESY JIM! With that said I don't think I'm going to be a microsoft consumer anytime soon
 

Callate

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I can only hope people will listen. This is the first time I've really felt a strong need to tell friends and family to not buy a product.

A quick word about a side issue, though-- Microsoft is also quietly screwing over independent games creators in a parallel way. The XBox Live Indie Games channel no longer has a community manager, they intend to discontinue future versions of XNA in 2014, and the word appears to be that it's increasingly hard to get a game on XBLA without either a publishing deal from Microsoft or the support of another big publisher- and both situations find ways to push the costs and work of pre-final polishing and post-final patching back onto the dev.

"Better prices and usability for the consumer" is not a compatible idea with "crowbar in more middlemen, each looking for their piece"- and that, above all, is where writers like Kuchera have taken leave of their senses.
 

Little Duck

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You know, I'm not worried about used games on the xbox one. Not at all. As it will affect no one. As no one is going to buy an xbox one at this rate.
 

DTWolfwood

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Urh said:
DTWolfwood said:
Would be nice to see the gaming press to show a bit of solidarity to the consumer by not covering the system and its exclusives upon release.

Having it die a pitiful death from lack of coverage is the best way to say fuck you to Microsoft and their new xbox.

I'll do my part in not buying the system, but alas me and my kind only make a small percentage of xbox customers. :(
And what would happen to said gaming press if publishers were to pull all their advertising in a show of solidarity to the Xbone?
There we go, a conflict of interest. The practice is abhorrent decries the gaming press, yet they have to talk about the games that are on that very system.

I can only wish the public catches on and straight up not buy this system!
 

Jimothy Sterling

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DrunkOnEstus said:
He'll buy one to review games on, and so will every other journalist who's "mad" about this, and we'll think of this "bullshit" like business as usual, just as we do with online passes, on-disc DLC, and everything else we deal with today.
This is all because games are a little more complicated than words on paper, light on film, sound waves on whatever. If it really does get ugly and there is no schism, and Yahtzee just gleefully goes about reaming one Orwellian DRM game after the next, I won't be coming back. I think he has more self respect than that anyway (edited: I make an example of Yahtzee and not Jim because Yahtzee's format is timely reviews)

Besides, the games are all going to be shit anyway. They only seem like a good investment to people who've never tried anything out of their time or not in their face or ever had a single discriminating thought whatsoever.
 

medv4380

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kajinking said:
I was honestly expecting this to come out AFTER the Xbox E3 thing.

You know...just in case the situation isn't actually all that bad and everything has been blow out of HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Given that MS already did an official "clarification" the only news that could come out of E3 is that they're in full retreat, or move ahead at full steam.
 

hazydawn

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I wish this was my "fucking ass" (´∀`)~♡ ...I demand more (homo-)erotic content in the Jimquisition!
While I think that your humour and use of foul language is sometimes over the top, I still very much like these openings and ending parts with you most of the time. Just cut a little bit back on the use of the f word? ^^
And keep spreading the good word Jim! Maybe it will enlighten a few stray sheep.
 

BloodRed Pixel

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Justin Smith said:
How could the Xbox One possible sell!?
by people thinking "oh it's not that bad". And they go down all the line until they wait in turn to be made to Soylent Green and still thinking "at least the food will be pure with no fucking *insert racist expression here* residuals in it".

It's really unsettling how many people silently and willingly accepting things getting worse and so few care about making things better.
 

The Lugz

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Delcast said:
hehe, good one, here we are sharpening our pitchforks and oiling out torches..

Well I'm crossing my fingers so Sony makes a stand for consumers... hah yeah that's gonna happen...
I have vowed.. that if they adhere to this bullshit, I won't buy their consoles, not even if they announce The last Guardian with a release date.
and then microsoft launches a 3 part half life episode 3 mega trilogy and crossover with a reboot of poral with collectable capes and flags because in desperation they bought valve.

then where do your loyalties lay?

muhahahahahahaha.

ok, yeah they'd just screw it up and fail but still.
 

Deacon Cole

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So when is the Miniature Fantasy Willem Dafoe - Belladonna's ***** Fist wedding?

I find it strange that Sony wouldn't jump on the same bandwagon because their competition, the XBOne, is giving gaming companies what they have been dreaming about for about a decade.
let's make one thing perfectly clear, Sony and Microsoft are not gaming companies. They are large multimedia conglomerates with relatively small gaming divisions. Never, ever forget that because that is what has informed every boneheaded decision on every console they've ever made.

Remember the Nokia Ngage? Well, few do. It was a cell phone gaming device that, unlike the recently flopped Xperia Play (sadness) used little game cards like the DS. Except you had to OPEN UP THE BACK OF THE PHONE AND REMOVE THE BATTERY TO CHANGE THE GAME CARD. When told this was a stupid thing to do, Nokia replied that people don't mind that their SIM card is under the battery.

It's that kind of missing the point. This kind of having focus on other technology and consumer goods that they just don't understand what makes for a good game experience and how to bring it to people.

I can't explain the WiiU, though. Other than Nintendo is Japanese and Japan is, to put it charitably,.... different. I assume they were trying to make a Nintendo smartphone/tablet thing there. But, game systems are rarely as good as their launch titles. And with the early release of the WiiU, well before the other two even announced they had a new game system coming soon, third party developers may have been skittish on making anything for it. And Nintendo has been late with the flagship titles lately. Probably trying to make sure they're good, one would hope.
 

Deacon Cole

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The Lugz said:
and then microsoft launches a 3 part half life episode 3 mega trilogy and crossover with a reboot of poral with collectable capes and flags because in desperation they bought valve.
Actually, that's what's going to sell the Steam Box.
 

Canadamus Prime

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I.Muir said:
Justin Smith said:
How could the Xbox One possible sell!?
Idiots
Frat boys
Kids

People so desperate for call of duty and madden they will sign whatever the hell they are asked to without thinking twice
In other words idiots, frat boys, and kids.
 

Jaeger_CDN

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canadamus_prime said:
I.Muir said:
Justin Smith said:
How could the Xbox One possible sell!?
Idiots
Frat boys
Kids

People so desperate for call of duty and madden they will sign whatever the hell they are asked to without thinking twice
In other words idiots, frat boys, and kids.
Forgot to add in grandparents buying it for said kids
 

The Lugz

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the antithesis said:
The Lugz said:
and then microsoft launches a 3 part half life episode 3 mega trilogy and crossover with a reboot of poral with collectable capes and flags because in desperation they bought valve.
Actually, that's what's going to sell the Steam Box.

LOL, yeah.. you're probably right.. kinda sad, canned and forced, really isn't it /sigh
at least there will be ONE decent game on it, eh :p

kinda looking forward to seeing exactly what the steambox brings, could legitimately be good.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jaeger_CDN said:
canadamus_prime said:
I.Muir said:
Justin Smith said:
How could the Xbox One possible sell!?
Idiots
Frat boys
Kids

People so desperate for call of duty and madden they will sign whatever the hell they are asked to without thinking twice
In other words idiots, frat boys, and kids.
Forgot to add in grandparents buying it for said kids
Yes yes, them too. Although they're not really desperate for Call of Duty.
 

Mr. Q

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So, anybody taking bets on how badly people will react to Microsoft's E3 press conference? Is anyone taking money on the "chasing the business casual spokesmen out of town with pitchforks and shotguns" scenario?

At this point, I highly doubt their console exclusives will save the Xbone. Even if they were planning to offer a new Killer Instinct, I can't picture myself ponying up money for a game system that has more issues than my comic book collection.
 

Deacon Cole

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The Lugz said:
kinda looking forward to seeing exactly what the steambox brings, could legitimately be good.
I think the answer to that question is "Steam to your livingroom TV." I get the feeling that the Steam box is not going to be a groundbreaking new thing. Hardcore Steam users who take advantage of their Big Picture feature no doubt already have a setup that does this from their massive gaming rig. What the Steambox is, then, is just another way for users to use Steam. I get a feeling like it's more of a sideline than a product Valve is focused upon.

That said, I would be shocked if the launch of the Steam Box did not coincide with the release of Half-Life Episode 3, finally. I doubt if it'll be the pack-in title, though.
 

theApoc

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I generally like your videos Jim, but you are way off base on this one.

People need to understand one thing. Digital media has no inherent value. Let me repeat that. DIGITAL MEDIA HAS NO INHERENT VALUE. Anything that can be duplicated an infinite amount of times at no additional cost for production can not by its very nature have any true monetary value.

So then, what are we paying for?

Simply put, usage rights. We are paying for the right to use/view a given piece of media content. We do not gain ownership of that content when we buy a piece of media, we are simply given access to it for our entertainment. Can you charge someone to watch a football game? Can you charge someone to listen to someone else's music? Can you charge someone to watch a movie? The answer is no. Theaters, venues, stadiums... They PAY to show movies, play music, hold sporting events, you PAY for the ability to experience the content, you do not gain ownership of that viewing experience just because you were there.

Games are no different. Just because the medium has changed, that does not mean that we have any more or less "ownership" than we did before. Could you have opened an arcade and charged people to play XBOX? Specifically set prices for certain games, consoles, etc? No. You may open an internet cafe and allow people access to machines, but in the end you are selling bandwidth and time, NOT the game in an of itself.

The problem with the upcoming generation is not always being connected(try watching PPV on your DVR without an internet connection and then tell me how ridiculous MS is). The problem is not the limiting of who has the right to resale/redistribution. No.

The real problem with the games industry, the thing that is truly screwing consumers, something you touched on briefly, is the fact that there is no distinction being made between the cost of "ownership" and the cost of obtaining usage rights. Publishers are charging people the same regardless of who ACTUALLY owns that copy of Halo.

However, consider mobile gaming. Games are priced to sell, with a clear understanding of the limitations. Clearly no one expects Angry birds to transfer from their iPhone to a Galaxy? No one worries about buying another copy for their iPad. Why is that? Because it costs $.99, that's why. People do not see it as a purchase, they see it as access. Sure maybe they think the "own" it on their phone. But no one balks at the idea of it being linked to their phone and ONLY their phone.

Why make that assumption about games on a console? The answer is simple. Because we see $60 as a significant investment, thus we perceive that to denote ownership. Unfortunately, we are mistaken, and you know what, if we could get the prices of games more in line with their actual "value", that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Online connection allows for updates, DLC, co-operative gaming, patches, etc. You cannot in good conscience decry the negatives of this type of system without also mentioning the good. Less reliance on hardware, more flexibility in terms of bug fixes.

No, the system is not perfect. Far from it. But the reality is that our expectations of what purchase actually means needs to change, as does our willingness to pay full price for something we are only "renting". The responsibility falls as much on the consume as it does on the game companies.

Consider another point of view...
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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canadamus_prime said:
In other words idiots, frat boys, and kids.
So then, anyone who plays a game that they enjoy and you don't must be an idiot? Man, I wish I had that world view, it'd make disagreements with people so much simpler. "*gasp* you prefer chocolate to vanilla? You must be an idiot!", "*gasp*, you prefer historical fiction to bibliographies?! You must be an idiot!" If only I could get planetary bodies to also revolve around me then I'd be all set.

To anyone who enjoys COD, and there are a lot of those people, more than the ones that enjoy pretty much any other game (as far as gamers' wallets indicate), please note that it's also sold on the ps4 which is looking to be a promising system.

On the other hand, people who only play COD have to connect to the internet anyways. So this wouldn't be such a problem for them.
 

sadmac

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Getting real sick of Jim talking about corporations needing to put the consumer first. Why does it matter if a corporation is shitty to its consumers? How does it affect you? It's not like you're doing business with them, because surely you wouldn't actually pay someone to treat you this way, right? Right?

The problem with Jim getting upset about EA or Microsoft or whoever is the same as the problem with people who get angry because other people are gay: all of this "corporate abuse" is happening between two consenting parties in the privacy of their own homes. It doesn't involve you unless you not only consent to have it involve you, but CONTINUOUSLY PAY MONEY to be involved.
 

PunkRex

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Please release some freaking games Nintendo... I think we could all use abit of fun.
 

Amir Kondori

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I know this will offend some people and for that I apologize in advance.

The launch of the Xbox One for me, in a small way, feels like 9/11. I feel like I am witnessing something that will change the video game world forever, that it will never be the same.

The physical media is now nothing but a handy carry case for the code, the right to execute said code is handed out or taken back by Microsoft and the publishers. Something I have not seen many people mention is that if you get banned from Xbox Live, if your profile gets suspended or banned, it seems to me like you will lose access to ALL your game.

This is the brave new digital world we live in. Hopefully ten or twenty years down the line the GOG.com's of the world will win out against the closed platform Microsofts.
 

Demolition_Human

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Great video today Jim! Love it! Now on to the subject of the Xbox (N)one, I hope this thing flops harder than a freshly-caught trout in the Sahara Desert! >_> This thing does not deserve to sell well, it represent everything wrong with the the Video Game Industry and Industry in general in a small box of misery. But hey there's TV, that sells right? Right!? :D
 

themilo504

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I get the feeling that the Xbox one will be a important moment if gaming, if it succeeds it publishers will start making games even more consumer unfriendly.

If it fails and I mean truly and utterly bomb, the industry will finally learn that they can?t get away with everything, and maybe stop or at least diminish their anti consumer behavior.

if it simply does okay, Microsoft will most likely blame its okayness (is that a word?) on pirates and game stop.
 

I.Muir

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canadamus_prime said:
I.Muir said:
Justin Smith said:
How could the Xbox One possible sell!?
Idiots
Frat boys
Kids

People so desperate for call of duty and madden they will sign whatever the hell they are asked to without thinking twice
In other words idiots, frat boys, and kids.
Very succinct
 

hentropy

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I sort of wish I could be outraged about this, but I haven't owned a console since the original Xbox. I can't really say I would buy it if it was completely free with no BS restrictions. Consoles in general are more or less obsolete and in the end the Xbone will only sell as much as people are willing to buy into it. It doesn't hail the end of gaming, not if gamers don't want it to.
 

synobal

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Seriously I imagine we can expect to see continued growth in PC game sales this year. Also with the Xbone, Ps4 and PCs all using the same hardware I imagine us PC users will be seeing better ports and fewer console exclusives. It's a good time to be a PC gamer.
 

Barciad

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See you down the 19th Jim! That was excellent. My opinion, just ignore these cretins, don't buy their stuff. Okay, easy for me to say, I'm a PC man through and through. However, just keep on with the old generation of games and platforms and refuse to buy a thing until a year or two after the thing has come out. By that time the following will have occurred:-

A reasonable games library should have built up on that particular platform
A initial prices should have dropped
They should have cottoned on to the outcry that has emerged and thus dropped some of the less reasonable features.

However, these are all assumptions and all include the key word 'should'. They all assume that Microsoft et al are a sensible firm that runs a sensible business model and does not take its customers for granted. It also assumes that your average consumer has a reasonable amount of critical thinking skills and thus is aware if and when it is being taken for a ride.
Thus, this generation will be a test of the consumers more than anything. Will their common sense outweigh their vanity or visa-versa? That, in my opinion remains to be seen.
 

alvaro barcenass

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The barring of games, way to kill what first started the game industry. to screw up so bad to cause physical harm bad design and bad thoughts remember games get better with liberty as in fallout 3 the access to change from 8 weapons that's a simple step forward, the original XBOX controller had two spare buttons to get odd jobs however the odd job was switching weapons activating combos or stuff that that YOU the player could chose!
 

Jenny Jones

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So does anyone else have concerns about the newly disclosed NSA prism information and the fact that the XBone is essentially a full surveillance system?

As for the topic in general, not too bothered, one look at fatuglyorslutty.com turned me off ever migrating from my PC games. All this other stuff just re-enforces that notion. At least steam has bouncing off the walls crazy sales at least twice a year to justify it's little DRM and need to be online to download the game then play offline for months on end.
 

GamemasterAnthony

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Kuilui said:
If only this video could be shown on screen at the E3 conference while Microsoft is up on stage trying to convince everyone that being treated like a criminal and not being allowed to own the things they buy is really super awesome we promise because ummm, TV!
Well, you never know. Perhaps some well known hacktivist group known for standing up for the First Amendment and the rights of individuals could POSSIBLY see this and figure out a way to play it while Microsoft is trying to do its schpiel. *grins interestingly in Anonymous's direction*

Seriously, though...I think the only way Microsucks will get the hint is if the One becomes one of the worst flops in the history of everything. Personally, I feel this generation of consoles is a wash. Just look at what Yahtzee said in his last video and you'll get the idea.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Jaeger_CDN said:
Sony won't have a choice if they want anything other than 1st party exclusives.

Do you really think the reason EA pulled the online pass thing was because they knew this crap wasn't coming down the pipes? If Sony wants any EA or even Ubisoft games on their system they have to toe the line on this DRM scheme.

As for Nintendo, EA pretty much said that even developing for the WiiU is a meh-maybe thing
Well they do have a choice.
IF Sony manages to own this generation, be it through having the best console/marketing or, in fact, best image, EA and Ubisoft would have no choice.
If Sony would have a marketshare of something like 60% and MS shares the 40% left with Nintendo, EA and Ubisoft would jump on the bandwagon no matter if Sony has no DRM of this kind, simply to not loose more than half the market. The whole scenario is hypothetical of course; but what I'm trying to say is that the publishers, no matter how evil they are, won't drop support for the console with the biggest share.
Maybe they'll give the Xbone benefits to lure customers over, but they won't drop support completely.

It, without question, would take balls for Sony to pull this off, and that's my sticking point. I really want this to happen, but I don't have a good feeling because I know how unlikely that is and I cannot fool myself about it. :/

Well, I guess the best thing is waiting for their conforence...
CAPTCHA: gimme pizza
Yes please! :D
 

Doug

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sturryz said:
The Xbox Two will require you to wear an ankle brace that has to connect to the internet every 12 hours or the the ankle brace blows your leg off.
That's very mild. I'm pretty sure they'll require you to have a locking device around your balls every moment you sit within visible range of the XBox (Kinnect -will- see you trying to hide or remove it), which will explode on the mere thought of not giving microsoft all your cash.

Don't have balls? Sorry, you need them for our console - you'll either have to have a pair installed (at your expense), or just piss off and die.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Additionally, you will need special dispensation for Microsoft to leave the general vicinity of your Xbox. If you are vacationing, you may transfer your license to a different Xbox 2 for a fee, or use a limited number of annual "offline vouchers" if you won't be near one.

Microsoft will laud these options as generous" and 80% of the consumer market will say they "don't mind" and it's "not that bad."
Or not notice until they buy the XBox and realise all too late their mistake.
 

MB202

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It's funny, I was just at GameStop, and the cashier I was talking to (I typically like to drum up conversations with these guys) said he actually WAS excited for the Xbos One, because of Halo 5. I didn't get a chance to talk to him anymore because there was someone behind me, but I'm sorry, I don't care WHAT games you're excited for, if they're on the Xbox One, they're not worth it... Or rather they are, they're just being held ransom, as Yahtzee puts it.

Oh, and I say this one funny YouTube comment that I had to repeat here:

"Xbox One? More like Xbox LOST!"

Edit: After seeing the video, I am now no longer surprised that the GameStop cashier didn't seem that upset by what the Xbox LOST is doing.
 
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But Jim there is just one problem with media that you buy. You have never owned a piece of media for sale, your just getting a license grant to use it. All of this is made possible thanks to the eula agreements you agree to every-time you purchase a game/sarcasm.

Please note that really was sarcasm, I do not support laws likes this in anyway due in part that it does make it illegal for your to lend, borrow or sell software you payed for.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_license_agreement
 

SilverBullets000

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Thank God I'm a Nintendo fanboy...and that they're the company that isn't taking away user rights little by little with DRM schemes and always online bullshit. I respect them for that more than anything else, even if they're tech is a little weak and they won't get much third party support.

Even so, here's hoping the PS4 won't pull this kind of shit. I started out last console generation with a 360, then got a wii, then a PS3. I think I have more games for the PS3 on virtue of them having better exclusives alone, but even my wii saw more use than my 360 did. I think last time I played it was for Gears 3, and I wasn't interested enough in the series to continue to the prequel.

I'll admit even as a Nintendo fan: If Sony doesn't pull this crap on us, then they'll be the most appealing system this console cycle due to their exclusives, third party support, and graphical power...but we'll have to wait and see. I won't say that Sony is perfect until after they've told us what their console does.

Even so, I already have a Wii U and have been having a blast with it, so whatever.
 

Vausch

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What I see happening is the console is going to be hacked.

There's no question, people will hack the console to make it work properly. With that in mind, will Microsoft be like Sony and sue, or will the judges finally not side with a corporation and keep with the rights of first ownership that lets us do what we want with something we own?
 

Pink Apocalypse

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sadmac said:
Getting real sick of Jim talking about corporations needing to put the consumer first. Why does it matter if a corporation is shitty to its consumers? How does it affect you? It's not like you're doing business with them, because surely you wouldn't actually pay someone to treat you this way, right? Right?

The problem with Jim getting upset about EA or Microsoft or whoever is the same as the problem with people who get angry because other people are gay: all of this "corporate abuse" is happening between two consenting parties in the privacy of their own homes. It doesn't involve you unless you not only consent to have it involve you, but CONTINUOUSLY PAY MONEY to be involved.
You need to Google 'False Equivalency'. Because you clearly don't understand the concept, and just made one.

He's upset because it predicates on ignorance. The amount of people that don't understand how profoundly this product will re-conceptualize the fundamental structure of 'ownership' is staggering. And in their ignorance, they will end up supporting a product that will have widespread, negative repercussions in the years to come. This isn't a 'slippery slope' fallacy; it's literary re-writing the concept of ownership.

If any clunky, ill-fitted analogy were to be drawn, it would be on par with the *opposite* of your proposal. It's an attempt by a far-reaching organization to take rights away, prevent them from being codified, or denying they existed in any form to begin with.
 

Parakeettheprawn

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Xman490 said:
I, as a singular person (and NOT for One), am boycotting the Microsoft E3 conference because of their horrible DRM. If Sony doesn't plunge down that rabbit hole, I think people are justified in becoming/remaining PlayStation fanchildren.
You didn't miss anything. Seriously, the M$ fanboys tried to go "OH LOOK! A HALO TRAILER! I -NEVER- EXPECTED THAT!"

It was some of the most pathetically self-deluding bullshit I think I've ever seen. FFS there were people saying the conference sold them or that Sony needs to "up it's game"... how stupid can people be?

OT -- This goes in my treasure trove of must-link-other-people-to-it of videos.
 

geizr

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And, yet, watch this thing still sell like gangbusters because gamers are just too addicted to their hobby to have any care how they get treated. As long as we get the next shiny.

Well, that's probably being too much a Negative Nancy, but it's hard to deny that the reason game companies have been escalating to these nefarious practices is because not enough of us are voting with our dollars. In my opinion, the video game community has been far too tolerant for too long of bad business and bad games, and I think it's time we become more discerning and assertive of our preferences and demand to be treated respectfully as customers, rather than cash-producing crops to be harvested. I think any other industry that treated its customers the way the triple-A segment has (and I emphasize that the bulk of the shit in the video game industry seems fairly isolated to just the triple-A segment) would find itself either bankrupt or relegated to a very niche market in short order. But often, it feels like the plurality of the video game community has become electronic-crack junkies who'll put up with anything as long as they get their next high-fidelity graphics fix, and, given the behavior of the game companies, it would seem the game companies are counting on this to be exactly true. Oh, wouldn't it be so great to shock the absolute living hell out of them all by voting with our dollars (and our feet) to turn away from their upcoming offerings in a ubiquitous display of complete and utter disgust at the direction they are taking this industry? I think if the entire gaming community really did that, we would find these companies, almost overnight, absolutely killing themselves to back-peddle on everything they have been pushing toward in an effort to win back our dollars. If they don't, then they'll likely find themselves quickly out-of-business, with nothing to blame other than their own failure to address the concerns of and provide proper service to their market.

I know I refuse to buy the Xbox-One in it's current state, and I am certain many here on the Escapist feel similar. The question is whether the gaming community at large is willing to make the same firm stance (and really mean it this time).
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Magog1 said:
Loki_The_Good said:
sturryz said:
The Xbox Two will require you to wear an ankle brace that has to connect to the internet every 12 hours or the the ankle brace blows your leg off.
God you anti corporate liberals will complain about everything. It's only a leg. Who cares when I can get my dew and game on and play the amazing games like call of duty animal kingdom edition now with 5 THAT's RIGHT 5 new pixels per square meter.

Honestly though I want Microsoft to fail so badly because of this but I'm kinda worried they won't. Oh well High ho high ho it's off to PC I go.
So wait you hate jim's followers but you agree with them. LOL good enough for me. when party lines can't even cause people to like the x box you gotta know your boned.
I think one of us is missing the other's sarcasm. For my part I was talking about being cool with getting a leg blown off. Thought that made it obvious but typed stuff can get misread so easily.
 

geizr

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Cecilthedarkknight_234 said:
But Jim there is just one problem with media that you buy. You have never owned a piece of media for sale, your just getting a license grant to use it. All of this is made possible thanks to the eula agreements you agree to every-time you purchase a game/sarcasm.

Please note that really was sarcasm, I do not support laws likes this in anyway due in part that it does make it illegal for your to lend, borrow or sell software you payed for.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_license_agreement
Actually, you do own the medium, i.e. the CD/DVD/Bluray disc that you purchased. What has usually been argued is that you are licensing the information that is contained on that medium. You are free to do with the medium as you please; however, you are not free to do with the information as you please. This has been the argument, as I understand it. The medium and the information are considered separate entities.

Now, granted, I feel that taking the strict sense of that often goes too far in justifying some of the inconveniences that content publishers have put customers through, but that is the argument that has been made in the past.

OFF-TOPIC: whoever designed this little "The Sub" video ad on the web-page needs to get his skull cracked. The thing is in the way of one-quarter of the text box that I'm typing this post in, obscuring it so I can't see what I'm typing, and I can't get rid of it.

MINOR EDITS: to correct spelling and other errors because a stupid video ad was obscuring what I was typing.
 

triggrhappy94

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Did you go to a sex shop specifically to get that fist, or did you already have it laying around?
Also, I wouldn't put that thing near my mouth.
 

Kenjitsuka

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Yes, that's all very true, and so VERY, VERY SAD....
I just hope my 360, PS3, Gamecube and PS2 never die on me.
Because I will have to hunt for new secondhand units of those.
NEVER will I buy this monstrosity.

Siiiigh. :(
 

BrainBlow

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triggrhappy94 said:
Did you go to a sex shop specifically to get that fist, or did you already have it laying around?
Also, I wouldn't put that thing near my mouth.
He got it sent to him in the mail.
 

LetalisK

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Didn't Sony say the exact same thing about PS4? That it's up to the publishers whether or not to allow their game to be sold used? Where is the hate for them? Not saying this in some weird attempt to defend Microsoft, but I'd rather gamers don't flee into the arms of a menacing wolf simply because the other wolf is growling and snapping more.
 

Moosejaw

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This is really the logical conclusion to IP laws, the only reason no-one's been feeling it is because they haven't been trying to think of ways to enforce it very effectively. Now they are. The eventual dream: People who control the IP charging you per-view per-person, on a medium that you can only have as long as it's being viewed if there's any medium at all.
 

Proverbial Jon

Not evil, just mildly malevolent
Nov 10, 2009
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Mikeyfell said:
WHOOT!! Biker Mice from Mars!!! Any body else nostalgia all over their pants?
Hell yeah! And The Racoons too. It's like this video was dipped in my childhood memories before being served.

OT: I honestly have nothing more to say about the Xbox One. I'm done. Finished. Ceased to be. End of line.
 

Bbleds

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So I am curious how does everyone really see this going? Sorry if I haven't paid attention to other posts but I wonder if this will hurt the current generations like everyone hopes. I am just going off simple numbers,but considering that if we want a good gaming PC that is about 1-3 grand and you have gaming consoles that only cost what analysts have guesstimated at 350-400 they still might have a leg up no matter what MS or Sony pulls.
 

timboo_drow

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sadmac said:
Getting real sick of Jim talking about corporations needing to put the consumer first. Why does it matter if a corporation is shitty to its consumers? How does it affect you? It's not like you're doing business with them, because surely you wouldn't actually pay someone to treat you this way, right? Right?

The problem with Jim getting upset about EA or Microsoft or whoever is the same as the problem with people who get angry because other people are gay: all of this "corporate abuse" is happening between two consenting parties in the privacy of their own homes. It doesn't involve you unless you not only consent to have it involve you, but CONTINUOUSLY PAY MONEY to be involved.
I've heard this argument a lot. "Don't get upset, just don't give them any money". This is all well and good, and exactly what I plan on doing, however, the problem is, as Yahtzee pointed out, MS and probably Sony, are ending up holding a great deal of our hobby hostage. If you want to take part in a very large chunk of gaming as a hobby you're going to have to "negotiate with the terrorists" so to speak.

It's a little disheartening that so many good titles are going to get tied to this anti-consumer crap. I will, of course, have no part of it, but don't expect me to go quietly into that good night as a huge section of my hobby gets whored out to EA.
 

KeyMaster45

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Jun 16, 2008
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Jman1236 said:
Even if sony pulls this same stunt, at least nintendo is still here to save us.
Exactly, depending on how the Sony press conference goes, I may or may not run down to gamestop and buy a WiiU out of pure spite.
 

Akytalusia

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with any luck, the system won't sell, and microsoft will learn its lesson.
...
i won't hold my breath though.
 

Edguy

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Haven't Jim complained enough about the Xbox one now? There's many things that hit the target range of stuff he's against, I get it, but didn't het get that across well enough in the first ten videos?
 

God of Path

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Jul 6, 2011
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The appearance of (what I believe is) "Belladona's ***** Fist" made my day. Every time I see Jim use that thing I just have to laugh.
 

RJ Dalton

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This trend isn't going to change until we remind the corporations that they need us, but we don't need them. And the only way we can do that is by not buying the shit they try to push. We can live without it, but they can't live if we decide we're willing to live without it rather than put up with all this crap. We have absolute power here.

So why aren't we exercising it?

Complacency, probably.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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theApoc said:
*le snip*
you made me read a lot

now try some back

http://www.twobirds.com/English/News/Articles/Pages/UsedSoft_v_Oracle_What_does_it_mean_for_your_business.Aspx

the more i've read the more im sure i know know what the immature "cloud gaming" is about and the more i believe this will probably end with Microsoft in court (in Europe anyway)

and Jim was exactly right when he spoke of "Statutory Rights".

"Statutory Rights" cannot be signed away. it's actually illegal to even try and get someone to do so in the UK (under the sale of goods act) which is why ever competition or promotional offer in the UK that has conditions and basic rules always carries an always visable "This does not affect your statutory rights" sign tacked on by the legal department....and our "Statutory Rights" (and much of rest of the worlds) actually have a great deal to say on the subject of "economic loss" and its deliberate incursion on one party by another at a given point in the supply chain because it runs contrary to the entire basic structure of all civilized Human trade.

ye see "second hand" is not just "second hand"....at every point in a chain when a thing is sold, thoughtout the entire time a thing exists someone gets paid (even its so casual both parties involved don't see it as a sale and even if said sale only results in "payment in kind" it's sill "economic activity") and easily half the real world economy is "off the books" and more than that has to stay that way to stay as vibrant and fundamentally supportive of the "real economy" as it is.

it's a precedent that cannot be allowed to gain ground and i don't mean "cannot be allowed" in the sense "let's start a facebook page!" i mean cannot be allowed in the sense the highest courts have already laid down the law and the only reason its not being applied is because as of yet said courts are largely ignorant about what the relatively new video games industry is actually up to.

there has been a crunch coming in this area for a while and if anything Microsoft have seriously shot themselves in the foot by selling physical media and and then saying "you can sell it on once but no more that that" thereby placing the incurrence of deliberate economic lose squarely in their hands.
 

frizzlebyte

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My first thought: is Ben Kuchera just gleefully naive, or a moron?

My second thought: Thank God for Jim Sterling. More people need to see this video.
 

immortalfrieza

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I have to hand it to Microsoft, I really do. This kind of f***ing up is so terrible that it loops around to becoming a work of genius. Everything they could possibly have done to alienate their fans and potential customers, to f*** up this console and it's reveal they did. It's starting to look like they WANT the Xbox One to fail as this point, like the higher ups at Microsoft all got together and brainstormed the absolute worst kind of console they possibly could. They'd have to market and sell a literal turd as the BEST CONSOLE EVER to do worse at this point.
 

TJC

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frizzlebyte said:
My first thought: is Ben Kuchera just gleefully naive, or a moron?

My second thought: Thank God for Jim Sterling. More people need to see this video.
Seriously, quite a few of his articles have been downright insulting to intelligence or plain boring. I'm not saying Kuchera is a corporate bootlicker... but it feels like he's a terrible columnist and not as sharp-witted as I#d expect from the PA report.

OT: You know what I find disturbing? This feels like an iceberg... in iceberg of shit. And so far, this is only the shit we actually can see but 90% of it is still hidden from sight. So I'm still waiting for microsoft's E3 press conference because I think they still have some ultimate bullshit they haven't shown so far.

On a side note: anyone else noticing that every mention of the xbone feels like an ad for the WiiU?
 

rembrandtqeinstein

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There has never been a better time to join the glorious pc gaming master race.

An entry level system is $600 and will play games that aren't "top of the line" for 6-10 years.

A "great" system is about 1k and will blow any console out of the water.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Jenny Jones said:
So does anyone else have concerns about the newly disclosed NSA prism information and the fact that the XBone is essentially a full surveillance system?

As for the topic in general, not too bothered, one look at fatuglyorslutty.com turned me off ever migrating from my PC games. All this other stuff just re-enforces that notion. At least steam has bouncing off the walls crazy sales at least twice a year to justify it's little DRM and need to be online to download the game then play offline for months on end.
i was thinking this earlier. with millions of xbones being sold worldwide basically giving open surveillance inside someones living room or bedroom, it would be an amazing resource from a group like the NSA when they know someone they are after has one
 

00slash00

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i guess i should be upset or something, but over the past few years i've done most of my gaming through steam, therefore i don't really own about 90% of the games I paid for, so this is nothing new for me. after their conference, im actually more excited about the xbox one than the ps4. of course that could quickly change. but none of the policies of the xbox one really bother me that much. my only concern was that they werent going to make gaming a priority, but their lineup was fairly impressive so thats no longer a big concern of mine
 

Seracen

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Soooo... this may look more attractive AFTER someone has reverse engineered a jailbreak mod, sort of like what they did on the iPhone.

I really don't need companies getting any more data on me than they have, and I really don't need to pay for better internet than I do, especially in order to accommodate a service I don't care to use (or enjoy using).

I never really liked PSN, but it's better now than XBL has been; so if no DRM on PS4, Sony here I come!

I mean really, where I live, if it threatens to rain, power goes out and internet gets reset; and I'm in a major city! I really don't need to deal with persistent online requirements screwing up my single player experiences.

If the "download to HD" defense is used, why can't MS just institute a disk check? PC's used that for years as an anti-theft device. I won't argue the effectiveness of such tactics, but DRM simply penalizes the honest paying customers.

EDIT: the "anti-robot" checker is hilarious. "IE is great for Win 7?" Isn't MS pushing Win 8? Or have they acknowledged that: a) Chrome is better, and b) nobody wants Win 8...
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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Antari said:
I really can't wait to start seeing some numbers on how bad this hurts them.
I'd assume it won't hurt them at all. For all of us who do have a decent understanding of how disgustingly corporate and fairly Orwellian the new console is, there's going to be folks who'll go "Oh, but the new Halo's on that thing! I don't wanna build a PC because it's too fucking complicated (it isn't) but I still wanna play the new CoD! But my sports games! I needs my sports games!"

All will be forgiven, for folks like this.

Seracen said:
Or have they acknowledged that: a) Chrome is better, and b) nobody wants Win 8...
Seeing how the Windows 8.1 update that's slated to hit this summer includes a Start button on the Desktop (basically a Classic Shell rip-off), they've decided to try and placate the masses - which is fairly stupid. Even if I had cash to spend on a new rig, I probably wouldn't invest in a touchscreen monitor.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Urh said:
DTWolfwood said:
Would be nice to see the gaming press to show a bit of solidarity to the consumer by not covering the system and its exclusives upon release.

Having it die a pitiful death from lack of coverage is the best way to say fuck you to Microsoft and their new xbox.

I'll do my part in not buying the system, but alas me and my kind only make a small percentage of xbox customers. :(
And what would happen to said gaming press if publishers were to pull all their advertising in a show of solidarity to the Xbone?
And that's the fallacy of gaming "journalism" right there; Real journalists don't rely on ad revenue from the very things they are supposed to be objectively reporting on!
 

Jimothy Sterling

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wombat_of_war said:
Jenny Jones said:
So does anyone else have concerns about the newly disclosed NSA prism information and the fact that the XBone is essentially a full surveillance system?

As for the topic in general, not too bothered, one look at fatuglyorslutty.com turned me off ever migrating from my PC games. All this other stuff just re-enforces that notion. At least steam has bouncing off the walls crazy sales at least twice a year to justify it's little DRM and need to be online to download the game then play offline for months on end.
i was thinking this earlier. with millions of xbones being sold worldwide basically giving open surveillance inside someones living room or bedroom, it would be an amazing resource from a group like the NSA when they know someone they are after has one
well if you haven't heard "all windows PC have an NSA backdoor" by now...

sometimes i wonder people had their head under a rock before 2001 or something (not necessarily meaning you).

i mean a guy from fucking Microsoft basically rode up in a straight face mask and said "we're Microsoft and we make great games (cause we buy people who make them with our huge pile of monopoly money) and we're really into gamers and the whole gaming thing yessiree. buy our mini PC in a box" and some folks where like "oh wow, these folks are the best gaming company ever and they're really into games and gamers because i can play loads of cool games (mostly made by other people) on a this box they made...and that they charge me to use..."

but it's fucking Microsoft.

they are the most self obsessed and exploitative wanna be monopolist business on the planet.

almost "officially" (given the legal cases).

...but at least they almost have no money left...tehe

they can't afford to go around buying up other companies to keep it looking like they are a vibrant business any more.
after almost 20 years of being a follower without a stand out hit their war chest is empty.

hence the squeeeeze...
 

lostlevel

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I'm now assuming consoles are doomed and I'm signing up for steam as soon as I find a decent username that isn't taken.
 

Banzaiman

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Edguy said:
Haven't Jim complained enough about the Xbox one now? There's many things that hit the target range of stuff he's against, I get it, but didn't het get that across well enough in the first ten videos?
Feel like I should point out that this is only his second video (for the Jimquisition at least) that discusses the Xbone, though he's done several on other topics that fall into the same vein of anti-consumerism. Still, I understand where you're coming from and it might be a bit of a tired topic, but this console is the boldest step yet towards the kind of market that Microsoft and its cohorts are dreaming of, and, if successful, will probably be the most progressive towards said market. Bold and progressive enough that it's worth bringing up these same tired complaints to spread awareness of this crappy practice.


theApoc said:
Just because the medium has changed, that does not mean that we have any more or less "ownership" than we did before.
This quote doesn't do your post justice, but it was very long and this has enough context for me to put forward my point.

I understand and agree with your basic claim, which is that we do not own the games we buy. There is one thing I would like to point out though: if someone buys as disc with a game on it, like game retailing has been done for over the last decade, who owns that disc? Does the developer of the game own it? Does the publisher who paid to make it? Does the retailer because he boughht it from both and then sold it to the consumer? The buyer of the finished product might not own the game and all its licenses, but the buyer owns that specific license of the game and should be able to do with it as they please.

Now the software on that disc can be installed on as many hardware devices as desired, but to run the program the disc itself must be within the device. This means that license can be lent out, given, or sold without anyone being shortchanged; as the person surrenders their license they surrender their access to the content on it because they are no longer able to access it, thus that copy of the game is owned by whoever they sold their license to. So while we do not own the 'games' per say, I would say that we own copies of the games that we should do with as we please.

Of course, digital distribution throws a cinch in that. Physical license keys are replaced with digital license keys, discs with accounts, and new measures need to be put in to be sure that they're not abused. Hence no account sharing, the constant desire to want you to be online for them to make sure you're really you and not your friend borrowing your account do download a game they can then use thereafter. The Xbone is basically Microsoft's flailing attempt at figuring it out, settling on something that works well for em, but then seriously pisses off the customers because they have to jumpt through hoops to enjoy their games - of which I am one just as a side note.

Perhaps I am archaic or naive in my thinking, but then that's what this forum is for, right? I'm sure someone will tackle me with counterpoints soon enough.
 

Pink Apocalypse

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rembrandtqeinstein said:
There has never been a better time to join the glorious pc gaming master race.

An entry level system is $600 and will play games that aren't "top of the line" for 6-10 years.

A "great" system is about 1k and will blow any console out of the water.
Xbox One (500), 2nd controller (50?), Year of mandatory Live (let's not kid ourselves) (50? minimum), a single game you actually want to play (60), probably some proprietary 'optional' (let's not kid ourselves) revised batteries and charger incompatible with what you already own (40), keyboard control pad I can't live without because I'm lame (30), hole-in-your-head extended warranty, tax...

Hey magic 8-Ball, will I spend upwards of $800 for something that imposes draconian measures on my game play and ownership, while replicating things my t.v. and cable box already do, as it adds idiotic features I don't want and never asked for, and NOT feel deep resentment every time I turn it on?

*shake*

'Outlook not so good.'

Hey magic 8-Ball, will I beg tech head guys to tell me what computer to buy six months from now, as well as instructions on how to finally use all the Bethesda mods I've been wanting from afar?

*shake*

'Without A Doubt.'
 

sadmac

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Pink Apocalypse said:
sadmac said:
Getting real sick of Jim talking about corporations needing to put the consumer first. Why does it matter if a corporation is shitty to its consumers? How does it affect you? It's not like you're doing business with them, because surely you wouldn't actually pay someone to treat you this way, right? Right?

The problem with Jim getting upset about EA or Microsoft or whoever is the same as the problem with people who get angry because other people are gay: all of this "corporate abuse" is happening between two consenting parties in the privacy of their own homes. It doesn't involve you unless you not only consent to have it involve you, but CONTINUOUSLY PAY MONEY to be involved.
You need to Google 'False Equivalency'. Because you clearly don't understand the concept, and just made one.

He's upset because it predicates on ignorance. The amount of people that don't understand how profoundly this product will re-conceptualize the fundamental structure of 'ownership' is staggering. And in their ignorance, they will end up supporting a product that will have widespread, negative repercussions in the years to come. This isn't a 'slippery slope' fallacy; it's literary re-writing the concept of ownership.

If any clunky, ill-fitted analogy were to be drawn, it would be on par with the *opposite* of your proposal. It's an attempt by a far-reaching organization to take rights away, prevent them from being codified, or denying they existed in any form to begin with.
They didn't. Property law is arbitrary, and IP law has allowed for this sort of thing for decades. They're exercising their copyright. It doesn't set a legal precedent; the laws are already on the books.

From another angle, you're going to end up not owning your games due to the other end of the phenomena I've cited: just as you don't have to buy games, Microsoft doesn't have to sell them either. They can also rent them, under whatever contract they see fit.
 

AWAR

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Well, Microsoft went and did it. It took the step publishers have fantasized over for years, and destroyed the concept of videogame ownership.

Watch Video
It just boils down to this Jim: Are you going to buy the Xbone on release date and review its games, effectively promoting the bussiness practices you seem to despise so much or not?

If you really are, then should we call you a hypocrite, a liar or simply naive?
 

ShadowHamster

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sadmac said:
Pink Apocalypse said:
sadmac said:
Getting real sick of Jim talking about corporations needing to put the consumer first. Why does it matter if a corporation is shitty to its consumers? How does it affect you? It's not like you're doing business with them, because surely you wouldn't actually pay someone to treat you this way, right? Right?

The problem with Jim getting upset about EA or Microsoft or whoever is the same as the problem with people who get angry because other people are gay: all of this "corporate abuse" is happening between two consenting parties in the privacy of their own homes. It doesn't involve you unless you not only consent to have it involve you, but CONTINUOUSLY PAY MONEY to be involved.
You need to Google 'False Equivalency'. Because you clearly don't understand the concept, and just made one.

He's upset because it predicates on ignorance. The amount of people that don't understand how profoundly this product will re-conceptualize the fundamental structure of 'ownership' is staggering. And in their ignorance, they will end up supporting a product that will have widespread, negative repercussions in the years to come. This isn't a 'slippery slope' fallacy; it's literary re-writing the concept of ownership.

If any clunky, ill-fitted analogy were to be drawn, it would be on par with the *opposite* of your proposal. It's an attempt by a far-reaching organization to take rights away, prevent them from being codified, or denying they existed in any form to begin with.
They didn't. Property law is arbitrary, and IP law has allowed for this sort of thing for decades. They're exercising their copyright. It doesn't set a legal precedent; the laws are already on the books.

From another angle, you're going to end up not owning your games due to the other end of the phenomena I've cited: just as you don't have to buy games, Microsoft doesn't have to sell them either. They can also rent them, under whatever contract they see fit.
If I wanted to, I couldn't possibly find 15 articles on why that law is considered both draconic and archaic. I couldn't discuss how such laws add ridiculous costs on everything from art to education, and I couldn't possibly discuss the very real profit these companies are seeing, or the amount they put in to build things that "entertain" us. I would never bring up how much money is stuck...literally STUCK, not coming back out, just in there...in the hands of people who brutally misuse such laws with loopholes and ever growing extensions on what a copyright means.

I couldn't give you a chart showing how much more reach copyright laws have now, than say...oh...the 90s. Couldn't do any of it, and I don't want to, so there is that.
 

magicmonkeybars

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Nov 20, 2007
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Thank God for you Jim Sterling, are you a carpenter ? because you're hitting all the nails on the head.
You could say you're nailing it.
 

Dragonbums

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Sir Christopher McFarlane said:
Fappy said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Nice use of the Sarif Industries promotion when you talked about ownership and control.
I liked that too.

OT: 12 minutes until the hour of reckoning. I have a feeling Jim's next E3 episode will be 90% Microsoft.
Not if Sony takes that opportunity to horrify us. Then Microsoft's blunders can become old news. I find it strange that Sony wouldn't jump on the same bandwagon because their competition, the XBOne, is giving gaming companies what they have been dreaming about for about a decade.

Jim's dismissal of the Wii U is strange to me. It seems to be precisely what he's been wanting for consoles for a long time. Less focused on graphics that make the games expensive, the games you buy are still yours and it included a system of input that can be used to good and that he praised the restraint it was being used with by the early titles. There are few games for it because game developers are pricks who don't want to make games for it.
Honestly, outside of Nintendo centric websites it seems the entire internet is dismissive of the WiiU.
I get it, there aren't many games to go on it, but what you say is correct. Nintendo never treated us like we were potential thieves. They never implemented DRM in games like Pokemon- which is notorious for having a bazillion websites that have ROM hacks of the games before they even release here, they still have a "buy our stuff, get points, get rewards" system.
And yeah, I agree third party devs are being assholes. At this point Nintendo just got a big fuck you from them. Probably because they won't let them implement DRM and online passes on their consoles. Especially EA.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Well, Microsoft went and did it. It took the step publishers have fantasized over for years, and destroyed the concept of videogame ownership.

Watch Video
It just boils down to this Jim: Are you going to buy the Xbone on release date and review its games, effectively promoting the bussiness practices you seem to despise so much or not?

If you really are, then should we call you a hypocrite, a liar or simply naive?
You could call me a game reviewer, since that's my job.

And you, uh, realize reviewing a system isn't the same as promoting it, right? It's not hypocritical to review a product, especially if I go on to criticize the very practices I'm attacking. The ONLY way this would be hypocrisy would be if, when reviewing the system, I praise the very policies I find so disturbing. I don't intend to do that at all, should I end up reviewing the Xbox One.

I realize you're very gleefully looking forward to busting out the "hypocrite" word that so many online people love using, yet so few grasp the meaning of, but you're gonna have to wait patiently like a good little boy until the system's out and I do whatever it is I do.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Well, Microsoft went and did it. It took the step publishers have fantasized over for years, and destroyed the concept of videogame ownership.

Watch Video
Hey Jim you ever heard of Valve?
 

sadmac

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ShadowHamster said:
If I wanted to, I couldn't possibly find 15 articles on why that law is considered both draconic and archaic. I couldn't discuss how such laws add ridiculous costs on everything from art to education, and I couldn't possibly discuss the very real profit these companies are seeing, or the amount they put in to build things that "entertain" us. I would never bring up how much money is stuck...literally STUCK, not coming back out, just in there...in the hands of people who brutally misuse such laws with loopholes and ever growing extensions on what a copyright means.

I couldn't give you a chart showing how much more reach copyright laws have now, than say...oh...the 90s. Couldn't do any of it, and I don't want to, so there is that.
Copyright reform? Sure, where do I sign up? Doesn't make Microsoft wrong, here, though. The law is more or less instructions on how to do business in this space. As I said before, property rights are arbitrary, and we define the practice of business by defining them.
 

irishda

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I think they could've named this video: Xbox One (props on not using the stupid Xbone moniker at least) and Hyperbole.

Or Billy and the Cloneasaurus. Either way.
 

Cheeseman Muncher

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Akalabeth said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Well, Microsoft went and did it. It took the step publishers have fantasized over for years, and destroyed the concept of videogame ownership.

Watch Video
Hey Jim you ever heard of Valve?
Valve is but one choice out of many. If you want an Xbox One, there's only Microsoft's way. No alternative.

Also, Steam offline mode only needs a monthly check-up and they seem to get the fact that digital games should be cheaper than a disc based copy. Good luck hoping for MS to realise that.
 

Something Amyss

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Doug said:
Or not notice until they buy the XBox and realise all too late their mistake.
Wonder how many of them will willingly slap the cuff on themselves like an episode of Get Smart.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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The scary part is that this is fairly logical and there's a shitload of people out there, without any common sense who will buy this thing.

The Xbone is the death of gaming as we know it and sets a frightening precedent for poor customer service, worldwide.
 

iniudan

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Akalabeth said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Well, Microsoft went and did it. It took the step publishers have fantasized over for years, and destroyed the concept of videogame ownership.

Watch Video
Hey Jim you ever heard of Valve?
The different is that Valve doesn't have the monopole of the platform they are on, they actually got competition, even if they by far the top dog, so they actually have to offer a good service to keep ahead of the competition.
 

Chris Slime

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The sad irony is until they come out with a model that includes a screen it will never really do everything. The Wii U is more "one" then the Xbox One is.

Also i don't see why people keep bring up Valve and Steam in this, if nothing else at least Steam itself is completely free and not a $500 investment to get jerked around.
 

franciscois

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Microsoft delivered some good looking games, avoided the hate topics and by what I've read in many places, turned some former haters to their favor... But fuck Microsoft anyways, not gonna compromise my privacy and personal data, for a shitty system that embodies some of the worst practices in the industry... I already have Facebook and Zuckerberg spying and selling my personal info. [Fuck DRM and used games policy too]
 

Colt47

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AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

Well, Microsoft went and did it. It took the step publishers have fantasized over for years, and destroyed the concept of videogame ownership.

Watch Video
It just boils down to this Jim: Are you going to buy the Xbone on release date and review its games, effectively promoting the bussiness practices you seem to despise so much or not?

If you really are, then should we call you a hypocrite, a liar or simply naive?
We are calling people who review games hypocritical for having to buy or be supplied the consoles needed to do their job now?
 

Olas

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I'm starting to think they should have named it the Xbox 9000.



Sorry, I couldn't help it.

I remember when I was a kid, me and my friends were constantly going over to each other's houses and bringing our games along with us to play and show off, frequently borrowing and trading games with one another, and sometimes if a friend really liked a game of mine, he'd go out and buy his own copy so he could play it whenever he wanted. Still, the disks were ours to use, trade, sell to each other as we pleased, and in the end we probably ended up buying MORE games because of it. It'll be sad if future generations of kids never get to experience that kind of openness with the hobby due to all these restrictions telling you how you're allowed to play and share your games. As an adult this won't affect me too much, but there are kids out there right now with nothing but meager allowance money to buy with who are really getting screwed over by this.

I kinda hope for the sake of the medium that the Xbox One is a failure.
 

AWAR

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Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
 

Razorback0z

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Spot on Jim. The concept of purchase and ownership is at stake and if history is any guide, enough of the market will bend over and take it to make MS a tidy profit.
 

Baresark

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I like this game. It's the waiting game that is fun. It's like watching your annoying neighbor build something wrong. He wants to build his own two car garage, but he has never built anything before. You offer him help but he pushes away your attempts to be neighborly, for he doesn't need you and despises the idea of help from someone like you because he is smart and capable enough on his own. So, you watch and wait for it fall on his cars when they are parked in there. It's perverse fun, waiting for someone to fail. So, I'll keep watching and waiting. I'll watch them flounder about when release comes. I'll watch them scratch their heads and wonder why the garage fell on their new cars. Then I'll watch them back pedal. It'll be fantastic fun.

Or, that might not happen to them at all. Perhaps the system will sell well, it'll fly off the shelf. The latest greatest widget always does, regardless of facts about it (look at iPhones). Then I'll still get to have a bit of perverse fun. I'll get to watch the consumer flounder and flop about. I'll get to watch them scratch their heads and wonder why their new $500 system doesn't do the things they thought it did. And I'll watch them back pedal. They will be the ones who will swear up and down that they didn't buy that black box, they bought another one that promised them more than this one is giving.

Either way, I'll have some fun. If you tell people a ship will sink, one way or another, but they still get on it. It's hard to have sympathy. And in my book, both the passenger and the captain have been told.
 

timboo_drow

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AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you.
I suppose Martin Luther King should have stopped supporting racism so much and gone on to be a farmer instead.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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iniudan said:
Akalabeth said:
Hey Jim you ever heard of Valve?
The different is that Valve doesn't have the monopole of the platform they are on, they actually got competition, even if they by far the top dog, so they actually have to offer a good service to keep ahead of the competition.
Yes because Valve didn't CREATE the PC so of course they don't have a monopoly.
But any PC gamer who wants to play recent releases pretty much needs Steam on their system.


The point is this shit is all old news. The PC gamers have been eating it and liking it for years. So why when microsoft does it are they suddenly the devil?

Microsoft CAN and WILL get away with this, because the PC Gamers have proven that they don't give a shit. They'll take the DRM and so will the console gamers.

Cheeseman Muncher said:
Valve is but one choice out of many. If you want an Xbox One, there's only Microsoft's way. No alternative.

Also, Steam offline mode only needs a monthly check-up and they seem to get the fact that digital games should be cheaper than a disc based copy. Good luck hoping for MS to realise that.
You're talking minor details that don't matter. Monthly check-up instead of daily? What's the difference.

As I said above, PC Gamers have proven that gamers will take this style of DRM and still be happy.
If Steam had flopped, then Xbox One wouldn't have this shit today. So thank you, Steam supporters, for "ruining" the console experience.
 

ThinkerT

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AWAR said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe.
First, exposure doesn't equal promotion, except in a very general sense of making people aware that it exists. No legitimate reviewer in any field refuses to review something because they don't want to give it any "promotion".

Second, why can't he be both a game reviewer AND a consumer advocate? I don't see how those two are mutually exclusive. There are many journalists out there that do objective journalism and write editorials as well. There's no reason that a person can't editorialize on the failings and shortcomings of a company or industry while at the same time reviewing things about that company or industry. Where you should have the problem isn't in trying to do both, it's if that person obviously lets their personal feelings about the company's actions affect the reviews of their product and doesn't give an honest critique. If Jim does that, then you have every right to call him out.

And lastly, ignoring something doesn't make it go away, especially when that something is one of the most powerful and dominant companies in their field. In that case, silence implies consent more often than it does disagreement. And people will just go to other places for their content. Which is more effective - covering it and having an audience for your criticisms of it, or ignoring it and having people get their info somewhere else?
 

ThinkerT

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Akalabeth said:
The point is this shit is all old news. The PC gamers have been eating it and liking it for years. So why when microsoft does it are they suddenly the devil?

Microsoft CAN and WILL get away with this, because the PC Gamers have proven that they don't give a shit. They'll take the DRM and so will the console gamers.

...

You're talking minor details that don't matter. Monthly check-up instead of daily? What's the difference.

As I said above, PC Gamers have proven that gamers will take this style of DRM and still be happy.
If Steam had flopped, then Xbox One wouldn't have this shit today. So thank you, Steam supporters, for "ruining" the console experience.
The details aren't minor and they do matter. As is usually the case, the devil is in the details.

Saying that Steam is like what MS is proposing is like saying a filet mignon is like a hamburger. After all, they're both food made from cows, so everything else is a minor detail, right? But those "minor" details make all of the difference to food lovers.

The same is true here. Among those "minor" details:

- Monthly vs daily: Big detail to those with extended internet outages, taking your machine on trips where there's no internet, dial-up users, etc. Any of those can be done much more easily with monthly checks than with daily.

- Cost: There's a trade-off with digital ownership for the DRM and lack of used media in cost. Games have much bigger discounts and more rapid price reductions on PC than on consoles. For example, I can, right now, go pre-order a PC copy of Batman: Arkham Origins for $37 at GMG. Find me one place where I can do that for Xbox or PS. There's no reason to assume right now that this will change with this upcoming console generation.

- Backwards compatibility and availability: Again, a trade-off for the limitations. Steam provides MUCH more than just current games. Xbox One won't.

The bottom line is, saying that the differences in things like "DRM" are minor and don't matter is just hogwash, lazy and usually self-serving. Everything, including the details and trade-offs provided, has to be taken into consideration.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Steam is to the PC, what Xbox1 is to the consoles.
You can say it's not quite as bad as the new Xbox but it still does bad.
 

ThreeName

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The incredible smugness during that final pun was obviously just too much to hide. Well done.
 

babinro

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People Like Jim Sterling and Yahtzee should stick to their guns and not support Xbox One in the next generation.
Only do shows and reviews for the WiiU and possibly the PS4 (if they feel that console is acceptable enough in its practices).
 

Jimothy Sterling

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ThinkerT said:
The same is true here. Among those "minor" details:

- Monthly vs daily: Big detail to those with extended internet outages, taking your machine on trips where there's no internet, dial-up users, etc. Any of those can be done much more easily with monthly checks than with daily.
I'm sorry but how many people take their xbox on vacation? We have Ipads and portable devices for that.
How many people are still on dialup?

Do people on dialup benefit from downloading 5-10% of the game they bought in a store? (as is with Valve Games)

You're scrambling for reasons.

ThinkerT said:
- Cost: There's a trade-off with digital ownership for the DRM and lack of used media in cost. Games have much bigger discounts and more rapid price reductions on PC than on consoles. For example, I can, right now, go pre-order a PC copy of Batman: Arkham Origins for $37 at GMG. Find me one place where I can do that for Xbox or PS. There's no reason to assume right now that this will change with this upcoming console generation.
Name me one game you can buy on the Xbox One right now?
You can't.

You're comparing the prices of a current gen system, a system which allows for USED games (as opposed to steam) to a next gen system that isn't even out yet.

ThinkerT said:
- Backwards compatibility and availability: Again, a trade-off for the limitations. Steam provides MUCH more than just current games. Xbox One won't.
I don't care about backwards compatibility. I don't have time to play all the new games I want to play let alone replaying old games that came out years ago. I'd rather pay 500 instead of 600 for a console if it means I wont get to replay games that I've already played.

ThinkerT said:
The bottom line is, saying that the differences in things like "DRM" are minor and don't matter is just hogwash, lazy and usually self-serving. Everything, including the details and trade-offs provided, has to be taken into consideration.
When you base your opinion on fact rather than speculation you can let me know.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.
 

Alexandre Lemke

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Jimothy Sterling said:
AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.
Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Alexandre Lemke said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.
Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?
Because the Wii U's position in the market is weird right now. I'm waiting to see where it positions itself when the dust has settled. Maybe it'll be clear as soon as the end of this week.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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What's the deal with the piano player with creepy robotic hands? And when is Jim going to get rid of that horrible shiny backdrop?
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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Aardvaarkman said:
What's the deal with the piano player with creepy robotic hands?
It's from a trailer (or the intro?) of Deus Ex: Human Revolution - later on there was a guy with a metallic hand tossing a ball at a kid, it's from the same in-game commercial. It's from a company supplying cybernetic prosthetics.

Anyway, as far as I see I'm the only one to mention this but Xbox One is not going to need 1.5 megabytes per second (MB/s) but 1.5 megabits (Mbps), which is equal to 192 kilobytes per second (8 bit = 1 byte). Sorry, compsci here, I was obliged to mention it. Other than that, thank god for Jim! :)
 

Amir Kondori

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AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
I am sorry but you are either willfully misrepresenting facts here to try and make a point, which is what I strongly suspect, or you are just misunderstanding what it means to be a critic.

Are you seriously implying that if Jim reviews the Xbone he is "promoting it"? What if he gives it a bad review and tears it to shreds? Is he still "promoting it"? A critic's job is to dissect what ever he is a critic of. To point out its good points and bad points. To try and explain what it means in the context of the time it is released and what other products it is released with.

You are trying to make the point that if Roger Ebert talks about how much he hates B movie slashers and then reviews a B movie slasher he is a hypocrite, no matter what kind of review he gives it. That is frankly asinine. I don't mean to be insulting, but it is clearly just not true.

But I think you know that and I think you are just a big fan of Microsoft, you are excited about the Xbox One, you feel threatened by all the negative press and so you are lashing out.
 

AWAR

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ThinkerT said:
AWAR said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe.
First, exposure doesn't equal promotion, except in a very general sense of making people aware that it exists. No legitimate reviewer in any field refuses to review something because they don't want to give it any "promotion".

Second, why can't he be both a game reviewer AND a consumer advocate? I don't see how those two are mutually exclusive. There are many journalists out there that do objective journalism and write editorials as well. There's no reason that a person can't editorialize on the failings and shortcomings of a company or industry while at the same time reviewing things about that company or industry. Where you should have the problem isn't in trying to do both, it's if that person obviously lets their personal feelings about the company's actions affect the reviews of their product and doesn't give an honest critique. If Jim does that, then you have every right to call him out.

And lastly, ignoring something doesn't make it go away, especially when that something is one of the most powerful and dominant companies in their field. In that case, silence implies consent more often than it does disagreement. And people will just go to other places for their content. Which is more effective - covering it and having an audience for your criticisms of it, or ignoring it and having people get their info somewhere else?
Most of the responses I got have a touch of fatalism I believe. What is really scary to me is not the ridiculous always online DRM spying bullshit, but the assumption that we the gamers are all going to buy Microsoft's trinkets anyhow.
Let's also never forget that we are talking about video games here. I really do believe in consumer rights but I know that the consumer speaks better with his wallet than with his mouth.
My main gripe on this issue is that I really can't see the use of whining about these stuff if it's already predetermined that we are going to deal with it anyhow, whether we like it or not. There is a choice and Microsoft said it themselves, rather cynically but they did anyway, that the kinect can be turned off. In other words, yes there are privacy and consumer issues but no one is forcing you to buy the thing and deal with all the crap in the first place!
And if people actually do buy the Xbone in the end on their own volition, doesn't that entail that they willingly trade off some of their privacy for the sake of the entertainment provided by the console?
 

Yuuki

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"Oh well...there's always the Wii U?"

No Jim, there's always the PC :)
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Yuuki said:
"Oh well...there's always the Wii U?"

No Jim, there's always the PC :)
A PC running Microsoft Windows, I presume?

One of the weirdest things about these thread is the number of people who essentially say: "Screw Microsoft, I'm going back to a Windows PC!"

Note, I am not accusing you in particular of this hypocrisy, just observing a general trend. If Microsoft is willing to do this on the Xbone, what's to stop them doing it on Windows? Another interesting thing is the naïvety of people saying that the Xbone won't sell, just because of some negative reviews. Back in reality, people will buy this in droves. Never under-esitmate the power of a teenager to convince their parents to buy new toys. I mean, what are they going to do once the Xbone and PS4 are the standard models for sale? Buy an old PS3 or Xbox 360? Not going to happen.

If people are actually serious about reducing Microsoft and other companies' strongholds, that requires serious commitment - like learning Linux and swearing off all non-open-source software. I really don't think that's likely to occur on a large enough scale to have any significant impact.
 

Trishbot

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I can play my NES from 1986 TODAY.

10 years from now, when the Xbox One's servers go down, and the games can no longer "authenticate" online, what happens to my game library? It all becomes useless.

Because I never "owned" them. I merely was granted "permission" to play them. And they can deny that position when it suits them.

Sorry, but I like OWNING the product I buy. I can still play my original Mario and Zelda games on the original hardware without asking daddy Nintendo for permission. Microsoft can screw off if they think they can tell the consumer how, when, and where they'll be "allowed" to play their games.
 

Alexandre Lemke

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Alexandre Lemke said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.
Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?
Because the Wii U's position in the market is weird right now. I'm waiting to see where it positions itself when the dust has settled. Maybe it'll be clear as soon as the end of this week.
Thanks for answering. Hope to see your views soon.

WiiU is my backup plan if Sony screws up. Never going to buy XBox One. PC is always the last resort, of course.
 

immortalfrieza

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Akalabeth said:
I'm sorry but how many people take their xbox on vacation? We have Ipads and portable devices for that.
How many people are still on dialup?

Do people on dialup benefit from downloading 5-10% of the game they bought in a store? (as is with Valve Games)

You're scrambling for reasons.
The only one here scrambling for reasons here is you. Personally, I go to visit my Grandmother (who doesn't have internet) about 5-10 times a year for at least 3-5 days at a time, and I bring at least 1 of my consoles with me. If my 360 or my PS3 shut down after 24 hours I'd be stuck with just my handhelds after the first day, and I don't have anywhere near enough handheld games that I haven't already played to death for that to be feasible, and very few of them are anywhere near as good or last anywhere near as long as console games anyway. That's just me, now think about the people who's jobs or whatever other reason require them to travel ALL THE TIME, if they weren't able to bring their consoles with them they'd probably rarely ever get a chance to play them at all.

Personally, aside from the above I'm hardly going to be effected by this at all, I oppose what Microsoft is doing largely on principle alone, but if it did effect me I'd be even more pissed off. Microsoft may have the law behind them with this, but there are some things you just DO NOT DO, some lines that should never be crossed, some things that are just plain wrong, and the crap that Microsoft is doing with the Xbox One is among those things.

Akalabeth said:
Name me one game you can buy on the Xbox One right now?
You can't.

You're comparing the prices of a current gen system, a system which allows for USED games (as opposed to steam) to a next gen system that isn't even out yet.
How it's done now is a pretty good indicator of how it will be done later. If it's cheaper on the PC now it'll probably be cheaper on the PC later. We can't see the future so all we CAN do is guess at the prices, but that doesn't mean doing so is wrong.

Akalabeth said:
I don't care about backwards compatibility. I don't have time to play all the new games I want to play let alone replaying old games that came out years ago. I'd rather pay 500 instead of 600 for a console if it means I wont get to replay games that I've already played.
You don't care about backwards compatibility, fine, but there are PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO DO!!! If you don't care about it you shouldn't be having an opinion on it. That's like someone who's never smoked in their lives telling people who do that it's easy to quit. You have no idea what you're talking about and shouldn't say anything.

Akalabeth said:
When you base your opinion on fact rather than speculation you can let me know.
Of course! Why bother actually listening to what Thinker's saying, much less admitting that what he's saying is right when you can just dismiss it out of hand. After all, how can you lose an argument if you just ignore what the other person said and don't ever admit that you're wrong no matter how pathetically obvious it is that you are? [/sarcasm]

Get over yourself and actually consider the other side for once.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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immortalfrieza said:
Akalabeth said:
I'm sorry but how many people take their xbox on vacation? We have Ipads and portable devices for that.
How many people are still on dialup?

Do people on dialup benefit from downloading 5-10% of the game they bought in a store? (as is with Valve Games)

You're scrambling for reasons.
The only one here scrambling for reasons here is you. Personally, I go to visit my Grandmother (who doesn't have internet) about 5-10 times a year for at least 3-5 days at a time, and I bring at least 1 of my consoles with me. If my 360 or my PS3 shut down after 24 hours I'd be stuck with just my handhelds after the first day, and I don't have anywhere near enough handheld games that I haven't already played to death for that to be feasible, and very few of them are anywhere near as good or last anywhere near as long as console games anyway. That's just me, now think about the people who's jobs or whatever other reason require them to travel ALL THE TIME, if they weren't able to bring their consoles with them they'd probably rarely ever get a chance to play them at all.
Anecdotal evidence.
I very much doubt that your experience reflects that of the majority.

And if you're visiting your grandma, you should spend time, you know, visiting her, not playing your video games.


immortalfrieza said:
Akalabeth said:
Name me one game you can buy on the Xbox One right now?
You can't.

You're comparing the prices of a current gen system, a system which allows for USED games (as opposed to steam) to a next gen system that isn't even out yet.
How it's done now is a pretty good indicator of how it will be done later. If it's cheaper on the PC now it'll probably be cheaper on the PC later. We can't see the future so all we CAN do is guess at the prices, but that doesn't mean doing so is wrong.
When you present theory as fact you're doing it wrong.


immortalfrieza said:
Akalabeth said:
I don't care about backwards compatibility. I don't have time to play all the new games I want to play let alone replaying old games that came out years ago. I'd rather pay 500 instead of 600 for a console if it means I wont get to replay games that I've already played.
You don't care about backwards compatibility, fine, but there are PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO DO!!! If you don't care about it you shouldn't be having an opinion on it. That's like someone who's never smoked in their lives telling people who do that it's easy to quit. You have no idea what you're talking about and shouldn't say anything.
So only people who care about backwards compatibility have an opinion? Therefore every opinion on backwards compatibility is in favour of it? Sorry but logic doesn't work that way.

When the Playstation 3 dropped BC mid-generation were people up in arms about it? No the console kept selling, and even more than it did when it first came out. When the 360 didn't make all original games backwards compatible did people get up in arms about it? No they kept buying games. When Nintendo re-released the same game that gamers had already bought 4 times did they buy it a 5 time? You bet they did.

If dropping BC was unprofitable they wouldn't be doing it. Fact is not many people care.

Why is the used games market so allegedly huge? Because people DON'T KEEP THEIR GAMES. They play them. Then they trade them in.


immortalfrieza said:
Akalabeth said:
When you base your opinion on fact rather than speculation you can let me know.
Of course! Why bother actually listening to what Thinker's saying, much less admitting that what he's saying is right when you can just dismiss it out of hand. After all, how can you lose an argument if you just ignore what the other person said and don't ever admit that you're wrong no matter how pathetically obvious it is that you are? [/sarcasm]

Get over yourself and actually consider the other side for once.
You're not a thinker you're a speculator. You're a doom and gloom reactionary. You forget that Steam of today, as great as people claim it to be, was not that great when it first debuted. You're saying things will be a certain way, when you don't know that as fact.

You want to predict the future based on evidence of the past?

The new Xbox is basically the same DRM as steam, except that it actually allows for some used games, people love Steam, therefore people will love the xbox. They put enough sales on there and people won't complain. Heck Xbox gold is even following PS+ and will be offering free games to people. There's your evidence that things are changing.
 

Gamegodtre

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Alexandre Lemke said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.
Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?
Because the Wii U's position in the market is weird right now. I'm waiting to see where it positions itself when the dust has settled. Maybe it'll be clear as soon as the end of this week.
My feel is that the only reason the Wii U is in this state is due to it not having this fuck you attitude towards the consumers where the publishers can block used games or make money off of them, and that scares the hell out of me, since i love the way Nintendo treats its fans i am hoping that they can get some more games and love from people
 

marurder

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So... you'll refuse to review new xbox games? Refuse to buy the XBox one outright? I see many crying blue murder about this, but reviewers will still buy the console(s) and exclusive titles which equate to free publicity for the manufacturers and publishers. I mean, it's their job.
 

Yuuki

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Aardvaarkman said:
Yuuki said:
"Oh well...there's always the Wii U?"

No Jim, there's always the PC :)
A PC running Microsoft Windows, I presume?

One of the weirdest things about these thread is the number of people who essentially say: "Screw Microsoft, I'm going back to a Windows PC!"

Note, I am not accusing you in particular of this hypocrisy, just observing a general trend. If Microsoft is willing to do this on the Xbone, what's to stop them doing it on Windows? Another interesting thing is the naïvety of people saying that the Xbone won't sell, just because of some negative reviews. Back in reality, people will buy this in droves. Never under-esitmate the power of a teenager to convince their parents to buy new toys. I mean, what are they going to do once the Xbone and PS4 are the standard models for sale? Buy an old PS3 or Xbox 360? Not going to happen.

If people are actually serious about reducing Microsoft and other companies' strongholds, that requires serious commitment - like learning Linux and swearing off all non-open-source software. I really don't think that's likely to occur on a large enough scale to have any significant impact.
"What's to stop them doing it on Windows". Stop them doing what? Used games haven't worked on PC for a long time, they've been using the CD-key system for over a decade now. Steam & Origin tie the game to your account and that's the end of that. Whoever tries to implement bullshit DRM gets wrecked by high piracy rates (e.g. Ubisoft) or at the least flamed to hell by the internet because PC gaming and the internet community go hand-in-hand.

Consoles offered simple/quick operation and the ability to share/trade games, something which PC's couldn't do. But now consoles are kicking their only advantages in the head - nearly every game has to install itself on the hard-drive and go through lengthy patching/updating processes, loading times have become nothing short of INSANE (it's like console gamers have simply become used to sitting through 1-2 minute loading screens), and now used games are getting hit. With all those advantages getting melted away, there's no reason to just build a solid gaming PC and roll with that.

It's consoles that seem to be going along a crazy unpredictable rollercoaster ride now, while PC's continue to happily keep doing what they've always done - just let you play your damn game, and let you use whatever controller you like, let you re-visit games from almost every era - and do all this with gorgeous sharp visuals & textures to boot.

That's why I said "there's always the PC".
 

Adeptus Aspartem

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I don't even know why everyone overreacts to that. Someone advertises a shitty product so i go *shrug* walk past it and buy something nice.
In this console case that "something" will be the PS4 for everyone that wants a console.

Just let them drown in a never ending pile of unsold consoles.
 

TheSpyIsASpyWDZ

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Akalabeth said:
Holy Snip...
Right, because your not basing any of your points on opinions at all, and your applying a liberal amount of facts here too right? Right...? I mean, you had evidence to back up that people don't keep their games? I'm just saying anecdotal evidence is better than what you have, which is none. I mean, I keep my games instead of trading them in, so I can replay them. But that's just my experience so it obviously doesn't matter. I mean, your complaints about lack of evidence really is kind of strange when you have hardly any evidence for what you said. Also, what evidence do you have for Steam users not having Dial-Up, because I used Steam with Dial-Up at one point. Sure, downloads were painful, but at least I could play games.
 

Jenny Jones

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Jimothy Sterling said:
AWAR said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.
But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

A bad review will turn off more people from a company and game in general than any amount of awareness brought to it through the review existing. Examples of this can be seen on some of the more recent epic fails from some bad companies (Simcity, Diablo 3, Mass Effect 3 choose your colour ending etc) and a lot of the time they have put people off future products.

At least I know that Jim and Yahtzee have the balls to give something shit when it deserves it even if they are very offensive while doing so and nitpick. As for most other reviewers, well I lost faith in them when they reviewed a lazy half baked cash cow and proclaimed it to the our lord and saviour. Case in point IGN rated the examples above as 70, 95 and 95, all of which have massive fundamental flaws and were outdone by their predecessors in nearly every way possible. Yet they still got...er I think I'm running away with this. Unfortunately it would be very unprofessional for Jim to do a show on his fellow reviewers and companies buying reviews and positive promotion through good reviews.

Point is they're doing more good by giving it a bad review than staying mum.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Lightknight said:
canadamus_prime said:
In other words idiots, frat boys, and kids.
So then, anyone who plays a game that they enjoy and you don't must be an idiot? Man, I wish I had that world view, it'd make disagreements with people so much simpler. "*gasp* you prefer chocolate to vanilla? You must be an idiot!", "*gasp*, you prefer historical fiction to bibliographies?! You must be an idiot!" If only I could get planetary bodies to also revolve around me then I'd be all set.

To anyone who enjoys COD, and there are a lot of those people, more than the ones that enjoy pretty much any other game (as far as gamers' wallets indicate), please note that it's also sold on the ps4 which is looking to be a promising system.

On the other hand, people who only play COD have to connect to the internet anyways. So this wouldn't be such a problem for them.
That is not what I said. In future please try to take into account the person I'm quoting before quoting me. I really don't care if people like things that I don't. What I was getting at is that people who are willing to take it up the ass (metaphorically speaking) as long as they get spoon fed their favourite franchise(s) are idiots.
 

Therumancer

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Antari said:
I really can't wait to start seeing some numbers on how bad this hurts them.
I don't think it will. Forums like this and the users that populate them represent a tiny minority of the gaming public. Most people do not follow developers, publishers, hardware, and similar things. Even E-famous personalities like Jim Sterling and Yahtzee reach a very small number of gamers overall. At the end of the day most people who go out there and buy an X-box will be totally unaware of these kinds of details, and by the time they find out they will already be committed.

To be honest, there is also the issue of the way games have been mainstreamed as well. Right now most gamers are not the savvy, intelligent, fringe people that they used to be. Most gamers are well... the lowest human denominator, the people the geeks and nerds stand out from. The Bros, frat boys, and even lower levels of intellectual humanity, people who were romanced by game companies and came into the hobby in large numbers at a time when things were never any other way, what is being seen here is just a little bit removed from what the gaming industry has already been doing. Most of the people gaming always had their ownership of games compromised, and are used to being nickel and dimed, and put under constant corporate surveillance. What's more rather than looking at what were largely social outcasts doing the gaming (ie nerds and geeks) catering to this mainstream means social pressure now applies and this is heavily exploited which is one of the reasons why social networking has been something forced into gaming and continually being wedged in. Right now plenty of people, even those who otherwise know better, are quite blunt about going to get an X-box because all of their friends will be doing it, and they don't want to be left out of what has become a big part of their social circle (ie getting together to play/talk about "Call Of Duty" or whatever else). Microsoft arguably already won this battle as even among the detractors we're seeing more attitudes about how "Microsoft is going to force me to endure this" and how wrong it is, than people seriously contemplating going without.

I will hopefully be proven wrong, but honestly I do not anticipate a major collapse over this, especially if Sony turns out to be just as bad, and I expect it to... as that will put people into the position of "endure, or don't do console gaming" and honestly, I doubt many people are going to give up the console gaming. It would be awesome if they did, and we saw a new rise of PC gaming, but I have my serious doubts as to that happening.

At any rate, Jim is right about pretty much everything here, not much for me to disagree with, I just don't have enough faith in humanity, or the masses of gamers that we see out there today, for this to end well. If everyone on The Escapist was to not buy an Xbox, I'd imagine the number of lost sales would be pretty much irrevelent to Microsoft, and honestly I'd imagine that even within this community tons of people will buy one.

The irony of Jim's position is that for all his railing against it, he's pretty much a guaranteed sale since his job(s) within the gaming cosm will require him to keep up with the new consoles and their games to some extent, and to use them. Think about this for a second, and then realize exactly how badly Microsoft has us all by our collective wrinklies when even it's most vocal critics among the gaming community are forced into being customers.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Crony Capitalism runs the entire Western civilization, not just the gaming industry. Are people really surprised that the industry is taking this route? Really? The more lucrative and mainstream gaming becomes (and this isn't an argument to keep gaming for 'hardcore' gamers) the more BS they'll peddle to make even more money.
 

Talvrae

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Thanks you Jim for using the Terms Cronies Capitalisms, i think it's important and good we make the difference betwen capitalisms, and cronies capitalisms who want to kill conpetitions
 

immortalfrieza

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TheSpyIsASpyWDZ said:
Akalabeth said:
Holy Snip...
Right, because your not basing any of your points on opinions at all, and your applying a liberal amount of facts here too right? Right...? I mean, you had evidence to back up that people don't keep their games? I'm just saying anecdotal evidence is better than what you have, which is none. I mean, I keep my games instead of trading them in, so I can replay them. But that's just my experience so it obviously doesn't matter. I mean, your complaints about lack of evidence really is kind of strange when you have hardly any evidence for what you said. Also, what evidence do you have for Steam users not having Dial-Up, because I used Steam with Dial-Up at one point. Sure, downloads were painful, but at least I could play games.
/End argument. Something like this is about what I was going to say. Akalabeth couldn't be more obviously wrong if he drummed up a committee to come up with the worst forum arguments possible, and yet he keeps arguing.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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TheSpyIsASpyWDZ said:
Akalabeth said:
Holy Snip...
Right, because your not basing any of your points on opinions at all, and your applying a liberal amount of facts here too right? Right...? I mean, you had evidence to back up that people don't keep their games? I'm just saying anecdotal evidence is better than what you have, which is none.
Evidence that people don't keep their games?
HAVE YOU BEEN IN A STORE? Do you not see an ENTIRE WALL devoted to used games? Do you not see bins full of used games? Or entire stores that sell nothing but used games?

Man alive.

TheSpyIsASpyWDZ said:
I mean, I keep my games instead of trading them in, so I can replay them. But that's just my experience so it obviously doesn't matter. I mean, your complaints about lack of evidence really is kind of strange when you have hardly any evidence for what you said. Also, what evidence do you have for Steam users not having Dial-Up, because I used Steam with Dial-Up at one point. Sure, downloads were painful, but at least I could play games.
Good for you. Now with the xbox one, you can do EXACTLY the same thing, play your games.

As for your old games, what are you going to throw out your 360? I have a Sega Master System, I don't complain that I can't play those cartridges on my 360. I didn't complain that I couldn't play Atari games on my Master System.

And yes, the EARLY 360s were notably unreliable, the later models are not. The 360 will be around for a long time. And if at some point it happens to die out, then I'm sure some guy is gonna throw together an emulator and you can play them on PC or the popular ones will get rereleased in cheap bundles or whatnot.
 

immortalfrieza

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beef_razor said:
Crony Capitalism runs the entire Western civilization, not just the gaming industry. Are people really surprised that the industry is taking this route? Really? The more lucrative and mainstream gaming becomes (and this isn't an argument to keep gaming for 'hardcore' gamers) the more BS they'll peddle to make even more money.
Not really. When other industries do crap like this they at least TRY to hide the fact that they're screwing their customers all the time, they couldn't get away with being this exploitive AND being this blatant about it, and if it's revealed to the world that they do crap like this, they quickly reverse things or end up dying out. However, the gaming industry not only treats it's customers like nothing more than walking wallets, they flaunt the fact that they do this and yet SOMEHOW get away with it. No other industry could do this and stay afloat, but the gaming industry gets a pass for some reason.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jimothy Sterling said:
You could call me a game reviewer, since that's my job.

And you, uh, realize reviewing a system isn't the same as promoting it, right? It's not hypocritical to review a product, especially if I go on to criticize the very practices I'm attacking. The ONLY way this would be hypocrisy would be if, when reviewing the system, I praise the very policies I find so disturbing. I don't intend to do that at all, should I end up reviewing the Xbox One.
I have to disagree with this. By buying the product, you are supporting it. If you sincerely mean what you are saying here, you would refuse to buy it, and put that stance ahead of your job as "game reviewer." It also seems that you have plenty of potential income as a commenter on the games industry without having to directly review games. Your Jimquisition episodes are very popular here, and none of them have been an actual game review.

So, I think you should put your money where your mouth is. If you disagree so vehemently with what Microsoft is doing, then you should not support them financially by buying their games, consoles, or Operating Systems. That just enables the policies you supposedly despise.

And what of your viewers/readers? Those of us who aren't game critics don't have the excuse of "it's my job." If you enjoy a Xbone game, do we get moral absolution to buy the Xbone, despite us not being employed as game critics? Apart from the financial support you would be providing Microsoft, any positive review you would give of an Xbone game would equate to promoting the platform.

I think hypocrisy is a very appropriate word to use here, because you want to use your pedestal to be outraged, while simultaneously enjoying the system without guilt.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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immortalfrieza said:
beef_razor said:
Crony Capitalism runs the entire Western civilization, not just the gaming industry. Are people really surprised that the industry is taking this route? Really? The more lucrative and mainstream gaming becomes (and this isn't an argument to keep gaming for 'hardcore' gamers) the more BS they'll peddle to make even more money.
Not really. When other industries do crap like this they at least TRY to hide the fact that they're screwing their customers all the time, they couldn't get away with being this exploitive AND being this blatant about it, and if it's revealed to the world that they do crap like this, they quickly reverse things or end up dying out. However, the gaming industry not only treats it's customers like nothing more than walking wallets, they flaunt the fact that they do this and yet SOMEHOW get away with it. No other industry could do this and stay afloat, but the gaming industry gets a pass for some reason.
Yeah, that's a good point. Though my main point was that this type of BS isn't exclusive to the gaming industry by any means.
 

Colt47

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Maybe next week will be a positive Jimquisition! The Sony conference actually came out good!
 

immortalfrieza

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Akalabeth said:
Evidence that people don't keep their games?
HAVE YOU BEEN IN A STORE? Do you not see an ENTIRE WALL devoted to used games? Do you not see bins full of used games? Or entire stores that sell nothing but used games?

Man alive.
That's a Bandwagon fallacy. Just because there are a large number of people who DO sell their games doesn't mean that there isn't a large number of people who don't.

Akalabeth said:
Good for you. Now with the xbox one, you can do EXACTLY the same thing, play your games.

As for your old games, what are you going to throw out your 360? I have a Sega Master System, I don't complain that I can't play those cartridges on my 360. I didn't complain that I couldn't play Atari games on my Master System.

And yes, the EARLY 360s were notably unreliable, the later models are not. The 360 will be around for a long time. And if at some point it happens to die out, then I'm sure some guy is gonna throw together an emulator and you can play them on PC or the popular ones will get rereleased in cheap bundles or whatnot.
You're accusing people of using anecdotal evidence while also doing the same. Just because YOU don't give a rat's ass about backwards compatibility doesn't mean that there's no value in it. Consoles break, discs get cracked or smudged or whatever, cartridges fall apart, maybe people want to be able to sell their old consoles to pay for new ones, or just because their taking up too much room. Sure, maybe someday someone will emulate the 360 or whatever and you'll be able to play it on your computer, or maybe like with the original Xbox it'll turn out to be all but impossible for even the ORIGINAL DEVELOPERS to be able to effectively emulate it or maybe like with the Wii it'll have a control scheme that's difficult if not impossible to replicate on a computer.
 

Colt47

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Aardvaarkman said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
You could call me a game reviewer, since that's my job.

And you, uh, realize reviewing a system isn't the same as promoting it, right? It's not hypocritical to review a product, especially if I go on to criticize the very practices I'm attacking. The ONLY way this would be hypocrisy would be if, when reviewing the system, I praise the very policies I find so disturbing. I don't intend to do that at all, should I end up reviewing the Xbox One.
I have to disagree with this. By buying the product, you are supporting it. If you sincerely mean what you are saying here, you would refuse to buy it, and put that stance ahead of your job as "game reviewer." It also seems that you have plenty of potential income as a commenter on the games industry without having to directly review games. Your Jimquisition episodes are very popular here, and none of them have been an actual game review.

So, I think you should put your money where your mouth is. If you disagree so vehemently with what Microsoft is doing, then you should not support them financially by buying their games, consoles, or Operating Systems. That just enables the policies you supposedly despise.

And what of your viewers/readers? Those of us who aren't game critics don't have the excuse of "it's my job." If you enjoy a Xbone game, do we get moral absolution to buy the Xbone, despite us not being employed as game critics? Apart from the financial support you would be providing Microsoft, any positive review you would give of an Xbone game would equate to promoting the platform.

I think hypocrisy is a very appropriate word to use here, because you want to use your pedestal to be outraged, while simultaneously enjoying the system without guilt.
If someone worked on cars and ended up needing a wrench from a manufacturer that he disliked in order to service a customers car, do you think it's fair to tell the customer "sorry, can't fix your car because I don't like the wrench manufacturer?" I sure as heck don't. Further more, we just had a good finish to the day with E3, can we not argue about something that ultimately comes off as petty?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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immortalfrieza said:
You're accusing people of using anecdotal evidence while also doing the same.
Um, hello? He ASKED me for anecdotal evidence so I gave him some. Read the posts.


immortalfrieza said:
Just because YOU don't give a rat's ass about backwards compatibility doesn't mean that there's no value in it.
Do you understand why things are made the way they're made?

If there's a demand for something, it'll be provided. If there's no demand, they won't bother.

Or in other words if backwards compatibility was important to a SIGNIFICANT number of people, the 360 and PS3 would still have it. Because that significant portion of the population would cut into their bottom line. But it doesn't, so they don't care.

The fact that they're abandoning it is pretty much proof that your segment of the market doesn't matter.
 

immortalfrieza

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Aardvaarkman said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
You could call me a game reviewer, since that's my job.

And you, uh, realize reviewing a system isn't the same as promoting it, right? It's not hypocritical to review a product, especially if I go on to criticize the very practices I'm attacking. The ONLY way this would be hypocrisy would be if, when reviewing the system, I praise the very policies I find so disturbing. I don't intend to do that at all, should I end up reviewing the Xbox One.
I have to disagree with this. By buying the product, you are supporting it. If you sincerely mean what you are saying here, you would refuse to buy it, and put that stance ahead of your job as "game reviewer." It also seems that you have plenty of potential income as a commenter on the games industry without having to directly review games. Your Jimquisition episodes are very popular here, and none of them have been an actual game review.

So, I think you should put your money where your mouth is. If you disagree so vehemently with what Microsoft is doing, then you should not support them financially by buying their games, consoles, or Operating Systems. That just enables the policies you supposedly despise.

And what of your viewers/readers? Those of us who aren't game critics don't have the excuse of "it's my job." If you enjoy a Xbone game, do we get moral absolution to buy the Xbone, despite us not being employed as game critics? Apart from the financial support you would be providing Microsoft, any positive review you would give of an Xbone game would equate to promoting the platform.

I think hypocrisy is a very appropriate word to use here, because you want to use your pedestal to be outraged, while simultaneously enjoying the system without guilt.
By putting out negative reviews of their system and games, Jim is causing people to not buy into their B.S., which far outweighs the "support" that he's giving by buying the system and it's games to accurately give out these reviews. Jim is HURTING these practices he's against by rallying against them far more than he's helping them by buying one measly console and a few games, and he's getting paid for it in the bargin. It's a win win for him and consumers.
 

Roxor

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DTWolfwood said:
Would be nice to see the gaming press to show a bit of solidarity to the consumer by not covering the system and its exclusives upon release.

Having it die a pitiful death from lack of coverage is the best way to say fuck you to Microsoft and their new xbox.

I'll do my part in not buying the system, but alas me and my kind only make a small percentage of xbox customers. :(
It would be nice to see games reviewers adopt the position of "It's on the Xbox One. 0/10", but that'll never happen.

As for me, I'm not going to buy it. Why would I when I already have a decent PC?
 

Aardvaarkman

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Colt47 said:
If someone worked on cars and ended up needing a wrench from a manufacturer that he disliked in order to service a customers car, do you think it's fair to tell the customer "sorry, can't fix your car because I don't like the wrench manufacturer?"
Car mechanics don't tend to publish public podcasts ranting against the evils of wrench manufacturers. Also, we don't pay Jim Sterling to fix our cars (or our games).
 

Aardvaarkman

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immortalfrieza said:
By putting out negative reviews of their system and games, Jim is causing people to not buy into their B.S., which far outweighs the "support" that he's giving by buying the system and it's games to accurately give out these reviews. Jim is HURTING these practices he's against by rallying against them far more than he's helping them by buying one measly console and a few games, and he's getting paid for it in the bargin. It's a win win for him and consumers.
I don't agree. He would have far more negative impact by publicly stating that he refuses to the buy the system or review any games for it. And what happens when a good game for the Xbone comes out? That's bound to happen, because surely all of the games released for it can't be bad.

Ignoring something is much more damaging than giving it attention, even if it's negative.
 

immortalfrieza

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Akalabeth said:
immortalfrieza said:
You're accusing people of using anecdotal evidence while also doing the same.
Um, hello? He ASKED me for anecdotal evidence so I gave him some. Read the posts.
You're using anecdotal evidence by you saying "I don't complain about the fact that I can't play ____ on my _____ therefore it's not a problem." If you actually care about how irrelevant anecdotal evidence is, don't retort WITH anecdotal evidence, even if asked for it, retort with real evidence.

immortalfrieza said:
Just because YOU don't give a rat's ass about backwards compatibility doesn't mean that there's no value in it.
Do you understand why things are made the way they're made?

If there's a demand for something, it'll be provided. If there's no demand, they won't bother.

Or in other words if backwards compatibility was important to a SIGNIFICANT number of people, the 360 and PS3 would still have it. Because that significant portion of the population would cut into their bottom line. But it doesn't, so they don't care.

The fact that they're abandoning it is pretty much proof that your segment of the market doesn't matter.[/quote]

PS2 was able to play PS1 games, Gamecube was able to play Gameboy and GBA games with a separate attachment that they had clearly planned for in advance, Each new Nintendo handheld since the Gameboy Advance is able to play the previous handheld generation before it, Xbox 360 is able to play some original Xbox games, even if not that well, PS3 was able to play PS2 and PS1 games until they took out the PS2 BC to get the price down, Wii is able to play Gamecube games, WiiU is able to play Wii games...

Uh huh. I'm sure they had backwards compatibiltiy for 3 CONSOLE GENERATIONS STRAIGHT because there's no market in it for them.[/sarcasm]
 

timboo_drow

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This discussion is now moot. Sony listened and stuck it to MS good by actually COMPETING WITH THEM.
 

immortalfrieza

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Aardvaarkman said:
immortalfrieza said:
By putting out negative reviews of their system and games, Jim is causing people to not buy into their B.S., which far outweighs the "support" that he's giving by buying the system and it's games to accurately give out these reviews. Jim is HURTING these practices he's against by rallying against them far more than he's helping them by buying one measly console and a few games, and he's getting paid for it in the bargin. It's a win win for him and consumers.
I don't agree. He would have far more negative impact by publicly stating that he refuses to the buy the system or review any games for it. And what happens when a good game for the Xbone comes out? That's bound to happen, because surely all of the games released for it can't be bad.

Ignoring something is much more damaging than giving it attention, even if it's negative.
No, giving negative attention is the only thing that sees any results whatsoever. In fact, Jim made an entire video about this very point called "Why Boycotts Fail Where Whining Tantrums Win", check it out.
 

Aardvaarkman

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immortalfrieza said:
No, giving negative attention is the only thing that sees any results whatsoever. In fact, Jim made an entire video about this very point called "Why Boycotts Fail Where Whining Tantrums Win", check it out.
Buying a system and reviewing games for it is not giving it negative attention, though. So the argument kinda falls apart there. Jim doesn't need to buy an Xbone to complain about it, yet that is what he seemingly plans to do.

Also, you seem to assume that everything Jim says is always correct. Not a wise assumption, IMO. There are plenty of examples of boycotts being successful.
 

leviadragon99

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Jim... Jim, calm down, you're not meant to sharpen knives with other knives, I think you might be treading a little closer to unhinged territory than usual.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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immortalfrieza said:
PS2 was able to play PS1 games, Gamecube was able to play Gameboy and GBA games with a separate attachment that they had clearly planned for in advance, Each new Nintendo handheld since the Gameboy Advance is able to play the previous handheld generation before it, Xbox 360 is able to play some original Xbox games, even if not that well, PS3 was able to play PS2 and PS1 games until they took out the PS2 BC to get the price down, Wii is able to play Gamecube games, WiiU is able to play Wii games...

Uh huh. I'm sure they had backwards compatibiltiy for 3 CONSOLE GENERATIONS STRAIGHT because there's no market in it for them.[/sarcasm]
If you're not able to see the very obvious trend in that example then I can't help you.

360 never had more than limited compatibility. Xbox One dispenses with it entirely
PS3 abandoned backwards compatibility entirely mid-cycle. PS4 follows that example.
Nintendo has backwards compatibility, but only with the previous generation.

Where was the fan rage when the newer PS3 couldn't play the games people wanted? Where was the rage when the 360 couldn't play a specific title that fans wanted? It was no where. Because PEOPLE DON'T CARE.

Why did people buy Halo CE Anniversary edition when they could have just gone out and bought Halo 1 for the Xbox?
Why do HD collections of games get sold when people can just play their original games?

Not enough people complain when BC is taken out.
And people show a willingness to rebuy what they've already bought.


So why would they keep BC in? Especially when keeping it in might inflate the cost of the console and prevent people from buying it?


PS - the Gamecube was ELEVEN YEARS AGO. What they did with it, doesn't matter.
 

immortalfrieza

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Aardvaarkman said:
Buying a system and reviewing games for it is not giving it negative attention, though. So the argument kinda falls apart there. Jim doesn't need to buy an Xbone to complain about it, yet that is what he seemingly plans to do.
If the review buys it and says bad things about it, then YES IT IS! That's what "negative attention" IS. Any person that isn't just a blind lemming (and if they're smart enough to look up reviews, they probably aren't) that sees a review that negatively displays anything won't go out and buy it, especially if they see a good number of reviews that say roughly the same thing, and there goes a sale, thus support. This continues to most everybody that sees these reviews, which can number anywhere from 1 or 2 to the millions, and all that for the price of ONE console/game/whatever.
Aardvaarkman said:
Also, you seem to assume that everything Jim says is always correct. Not a wise assumption, IMO.
No, but he has been right a pretty damn good amount of the time and he's definitely right about that. Even if he had never made that video I'd still be saying the same. BTW, did you watch it?

If he wants to give an ACCURATE review then he should buy it and try it out before giving it, otherwise he's just talking out of his rear end.
Aardvaarkman said:
There are plenty of examples of boycotts being successful.
Name 1 time that boycotts have EVER worked in the video game industry. Hell, they rarely ever work in other industries these days either. The only time boycotts have really made a difference consistently was a couple centuries ago when there were significantly less people, thus a few people refusing to buy crap mattered much more.
 

AhumbleKnight

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It seems to me that Microsoft took one look at D3 and what they were doing and fell instantly in love, to the point where the built their whole console that philosophy. I just hope that games have learnt from that lesson and just don't buy in the first place.
 

AgDr_ODST

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barring my love of early Nintendo consoles(NES&N64 respectively) early on in my life, I've been an ardent Microsoft supporter since the original Xbox. But the bad taste in my mouth that I got from the X-One's grand reveal on top of Jim bashing the ever loving shit out of it(including his tweets which i read out of curiosity) at nearly every turn is starting to take the wind out of my sails.
 

Trishbot

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AgDr_ODST said:
barring my love of early Nintendo consoles(NES&N64 respectively) early on in my life, I've been an ardent Microsoft supporter since the original Xbox. But the bad taste in my mouth that I got from the X-One's grand reveal on top of Jim bashing the ever loving shit out of it(including his tweets which i read out of curiosity) at nearly every turn is starting to take the wind out of my sails.
Well, it should. Let's be honest here; you and me and everyone... we don't OWE Xbox any loyalty. We are not indentured servants or, as Microsoft wants to treat us, parole violators needing to check in with Microsoft every 24 hours for the "honor" and permission of playing the games we rightly paid them for.

I was a huge 360 owner. But not enough to be stupid to what they were doing. I jumped ship. Haven't looked back.

Though it does make me wonder if Jim will do his next podcast over PS4.
"PS4 and the Salvation of Ownership"

WOW, it feels good to have a next-gen console out there that doesn't treat me like a criminal.
 

immortalfrieza

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Akalabeth said:
immortalfrieza said:
PS2 was able to play PS1 games, Gamecube was able to play Gameboy and GBA games with a separate attachment that they had clearly planned for in advance, Each new Nintendo handheld since the Gameboy Advance is able to play the previous handheld generation before it, Xbox 360 is able to play some original Xbox games, even if not that well, PS3 was able to play PS2 and PS1 games until they took out the PS2 BC to get the price down, Wii is able to play Gamecube games, WiiU is able to play Wii games...

Uh huh. I'm sure they had backwards compatibiltiy for 3 CONSOLE GENERATIONS STRAIGHT because there's no market in it for them.[/sarcasm]
If you're not able to see the very obvious trend in that example then I can't help you.

360 never had more than limited compatibility. Xbox One dispenses with it entirely
PS3 abandoned backwards compatibility entirely mid-cycle. PS4 follows that example.
Nintendo has backwards compatibility, but only with the previous generation.

Where was the fan rage when the newer PS3 couldn't play the games people wanted? Where was the rage when the 360 couldn't play a specific title that fans wanted? It was no where. Because PEOPLE DON'T CARE.

Why did people buy Halo CE Anniversary edition when they could have just gone out and bought Halo 1 for the Xbox?
Why do HD collections of games get sold when people can just play their original games?

Not enough people complain when BC is taken out.
And people show a willingness to rebuy what they've already bought.


So why would they keep BC in? Especially when keeping it in might inflate the cost of the console and prevent people from buying it?


PS - the Gamecube was ELEVEN YEARS AGO. What they did with it, doesn't matter.
Where have you been? People complained LIKE HELL when 360 couldn't play all Xbox games. People complained even more when the PS3 lost it's compatibily with PS2 games, and they did for a while. Some people are STILL complaining about it in passing. There goes your "nobody cares" argument.

Yeah, I do see a trend here. You don't give a rat's ass about something, so it doesn't matter how many people do, they shouldn't either, even if that number of people is in the millions. You think something doesn't matter, so it doesn't matter, no matter how much it actually does. Nobody and nothing in this entire universe matters except YOU. You just dismiss everything that doesn't agree with you as irrelevant regardless of it's actual relevancy because you can't be bothered to think of actual arguments. You're less reasonable than a rock, because at least a rock will move if you push it hard enough.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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immortalfrieza said:
Where have you been? People complained LIKE HELL when 360 couldn't play all Xbox games. People complained even more when the PS3 lost it's compatibily with PS2 games, and they did for a while. Some people are STILL complaining about it in passing. There goes your "nobody cares" argument.

Yeah, I do see a trend here. You don't give a rat's ass about something, so it doesn't matter how many people do, they shouldn't either, even if that number of people is in the millions. You think something doesn't matter, so it doesn't matter, no matter how much it actually does. Nobody and nothing in this entire universe matters except YOU. You just dismiss everything that doesn't agree with you as irrelevant regardless of it's actual relevancy because you can't be bothered to think of actual arguments. You're less reasonable than a rock, because at least a rock will move if you push it hard enough.
Hahaha.
Dude quit embarrassing yourself by making this personal. You're more intelligent than that.

I don't care who you are. And I don't care if you or anyone else cares who I am. And I really don't care who these alleged millions of people are either. There are millions of people who have issues but none of them seem to regularly complain on these forums or any of the other forums I visit. People are still buying games. People are still buying new PS3 consoles when they dropped BC. They complain, and then they buy it anyway. The PS3 used to be the worst seller of the main three, then they dropped BC and they dropped the price, and then sales took off.

So if you're a console manufacturer.
And you drop the BC
And then sales increase

What do you think your plan for the future will be?

Are you going to release a pricier console with BC?
Or are you going to release a cheaper console without it?


If you resell a game that's already available via BC and people buy it, are you going to spend money to try and keep those gamers happy by ensuring they can play their old games? Or are you going to spend a few bucks, refurbish it, and resell it so people will buy it again?


The only voice that matters is how you spend your money and the way that people have been spending their money is determining, in part, the next generation of consoles. If you don't like the way it's going, then don't buy into it.
 

AgDr_ODST

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Trishbot said:
AgDr_ODST said:
barring my love of early Nintendo consoles(NES&N64 respectively) early on in my life, I've been an ardent Microsoft supporter since the original Xbox. But the bad taste in my mouth that I got from the X-One's grand reveal on top of Jim bashing the ever loving shit out of it(including his tweets which i read out of curiosity) at nearly every turn is starting to take the wind out of my sails.
Well, it should. Let's be honest here; you and me and everyone... we don't OWE Xbox any loyalty. We are not indentured servants or, as Microsoft wants to treat us, parole violators needing to check in with Microsoft every 24 hours for the "honor" and permission of playing the games we rightly paid them for.

I was a huge 360 owner. But not enough to be stupid to what they were doing. I jumped ship. Haven't looked back.

Though it does make me wonder if Jim will do his next podcast over PS4.
"PS4 and the Salvation of Ownership"

WOW, it feels good to have a next-gen console out there that doesn't treat me like a criminal.
I'm at abit of an impasse when it comes to how I feel about what you said and the next gen moving forward. On one hand I agree unquestionably that you and I as gamers don't owe loyalty to any particular console or company be it MS&Xbox or Sony&PS4 but the heavy handed wording over the check in, I don't quite agree with. If I were to still buy an Xbox One, at this particular time I would have no problem by and large with the 'check in', but I can see how for many it would be an issue so I'm not so blindly ignorant as to not be able to see how it would affect others. The used games thing might present a problem if not for the fact that I buy most of my games new and at launch[footnote]At this moment only 2-3 of the games in my admittedly small library were either previously owned or are currently on loan from a friend. [/footnote], that might become an issue later on down the road if I stick with Microsoft for now at least its not an issue. One final thing you say you were a 'huge' 360 owner, but what prompted the change? Was it something before or after the X-One reveal that made you change your mind?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Trishbot said:
Well, it should. Let's be honest here; you and me and everyone... we don't OWE Xbox any loyalty. We are not indentured servants or, as Microsoft wants to treat us, parole violators needing to check in with Microsoft every 24 hours for the "honor" and permission of playing the games we rightly paid them for.

I was a huge 360 owner. But not enough to be stupid to what they were doing. I jumped ship. Haven't looked back.

Though it does make me wonder if Jim will do his next podcast over PS4.
"PS4 and the Salvation of Ownership"

WOW, it feels good to have a next-gen console out there that doesn't treat me like a criminal.
Every time I turn on my 360 it goes to Xbox Live.
So explain to me how this next generation will be any different?

It wont affect me in the slightest, and that's the bottom line. Not only that but gold is offering free games now just as PS+ is doing. More incentive to buy into a program that I would not otherwise do.


I must wonder if some of the more vocal opponents of the 360 daily check in are not in fact individuals with modded consoles.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Thank God for the stern Jimling indeed.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly and wholesale on this one. I shall focus and channel my rage into a healthy workout regimen, just in case summer decides to happen eventually.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Akalabeth said:
Every time I turn on my 360 it goes to Xbox Live.
So explain to me how this next generation will be any different?
Currently, your internet connection going down for a couple minutes at a bad time may lose you your aim in Modern Warfare, causing you to curse briefly, apologize to your teammates, and continue. A longer outage means you'll spend your daily time playing Skyrim instead (for instance).

With the XBOne, your connection going down for a couple of minute interrupts your daily verification, and you cannot play anything, even single-player games, for a day or possibly until you call MS service (average turnaround on account issues: on the order of a week) because the corrupted check-in registered as an attempted spoof.

This is not considering ISPs playing stupid games with port blocking, DMCA requests misfiring and screwing ports and addresses, publishers mucking up the verification protocols (they will, we've seen it 100 times), MS having authentication issues or losing the authentication server (as seen every other month with every MMO ever) and temporarily bricking every XBO in existence, etc.

Your "always on anyway" connection is not anywhere near as always-on as you seem to think it is, even if you live in an urban area and it is in fact reliable from your practical perspective as a result of all your stuff being carefully designed to rely as little on connection consistency as humanly possible. The internet just isn't. That. Reliable. This is why every attempt at this kind of DRM has been a miserable failure from a service perspective, and why, for instance, Diablo 3 was a forgettable experience most people barely bothered with instead of catching the existing D2 fanbase that just enjoys playing it whenever they have free time.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Jim_Callahan said:
Akalabeth said:
Every time I turn on my 360 it goes to Xbox Live.
So explain to me how this next generation will be any different?
Currently, your internet connection going down for a couple minutes at a bad time may lose you your aim in Modern Warfare, causing you to curse briefly, apologize to your teammates, and continue. A longer outage means you'll spend your daily time playing Skyrim instead (for instance).

With the XBOne, your connection going down for a couple of minute interrupts your daily verification, and you cannot play anything, even single-player games, for a day or possibly until you call MS service (average turnaround on account issues: on the order of a week) because the corrupted check-in registered as an attempted spoof.
I'm sorry but unless you have actual proof of that process I call that fear mongering.

Here's what I believe will happen with the Xbox One

Turn it on
Ooops no internet connection
Can't access games.
Five minutes later internet is back on
Xbox tries to reconnect
Games enabled
Carry on.


See the internet doesn't work that way. If I try to go to a website with Internet Explorer and it's not available, it will tell me, and then I retry. You telling me that Xbox One will have less functionality than that? I don't think so.

Cannot connect. Retry?
YES
Cannot connect. Retry?
YES
Connection to Xbox Live made
Play game.
 

Aardvaarkman

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immortalfrieza said:
If the review buys it and says bad things about it, then YES IT IS! That's what "negative attention" IS.
No, at best it's giving "mixed signals" - sure you may have dissed it in your review - but you still gave the company money for the console, which is what really matters. And again, what happens when a good Xbone game comes along? Is Jim supposed to give it a bad review, despite being a good game? That would be less ethical than simply refusing to review the game in the first place.

No, but he has been right a pretty damn good amount of the time and he's definitely right about that. Even if he had never made that video I'd still be saying the same. BTW, did you watch it?
Yes, I've watched every Jimquisition episode.

If he wants to give an ACCURATE review then he should buy it and try it out before giving it, otherwise he's just talking out of his rear end.
Why does he have to buy it? Why couldn't he borrow someone else's system?

Name 1 time that boycotts have EVER worked in the video game industry. Hell, they rarely ever work in other industries these days either. The only time boycotts have really made a difference consistently was a couple centuries ago when there were significantly less people, thus a few people refusing to buy crap mattered much more.
What makes video games special? Boycotts have worked much more recently than "a couple of Centuries ago" - examples include Coca-Cola and Nestlé in the late 20th Century.

The the problem with this argument is that boycotts do not preclude whining. Boycotts, in fact, almost always involve vocal complaining in addition to the product boycott. Jim's argument that vocal complaining gets better results does not preclude complaining while also boycotting.

And again, I'd like to ask - if Jim hates what Microsoft is doing so much, then why should he buy the system? And where is the line? Is the title of "game critic" enough to allow him to violate his beliefs, while use lesser people shouldn't be supporting the game? The only thing these companies care about it money. If you're buying the system in order to criticize it, the company still makes as much money as if you don't criticize it. So, where's the downside?
 

Prosis

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Akalabeth said:
Yes, it will have less functionality.
Turn on XboxOne to play Single Player Game Offline
Oops no internet connection
Can't access games.
Look at router, internet is down.
Call Comcast.
"Sure, we'll get a guy out there by Friday."
It's Tuesday.
Recall the last four times internet went down this year.
Wonder why XboxOne needs an internet connection for an offline game.
Regret buying XboxOne.

Turn on XboxOne to play Single Player Game Offline.
Oops no internet connection.
Can't access games.
Router is working.
Google it.
Xbox has crashed server/servers down for emergency maintenance/suffered a DDOS attack/been hacked
Recall Sony fiasco, Diablo III fiasco, SimCity Fiasco, Ubisoft Fiasco
Wonder why XboxOne needs an internet connection for an offline game.
Regret buying XboxOne.

Turn on XboxOne to play Single Player Game Offline
Oops no internet connection
Can't access games.
Remember that you live outside of America or EU, or live in any rural area with minimal internet access
Suggest to friends that they buy a system they can actually play.
Wonder why XboxOne needs an internet connection for an offline game.
Regret buying XboxOne.

Turn on XboxOne to play Single Player Game Offline
Can't access game
Account has been hacked/account wrongfully suspended
Call Customer Support
Popular Company, can't get a human.
Try online Customer Support.
Bot replies. Can't get a hold of a human.
Four hours later, give up
Look at physical copy of game in your hands, which you guess that you no longer technically own.
Regret buying XboxOne.
See, the internet doesn't work that way. The internet is a fickle piece of technology, prone to failure and error. If the internet is down, there is very little I can do. I can understand though that it goes down. Its technology, and technology fails. What I do not understand, however, is why this daily connection is necessary, when all it does is create the possibility for my system to fail.

So please, tell me how someone's gaming experience is improved by being forced to connect once a day.
 

hauptberg

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Akalabeth said:
Jim_Callahan said:
Akalabeth said:
Every time I turn on my 360 it goes to Xbox Live.
So explain to me how this next generation will be any different?
Currently, your internet connection going down for a couple minutes at a bad time may lose you your aim in Modern Warfare, causing you to curse briefly, apologize to your teammates, and continue. A longer outage means you'll spend your daily time playing Skyrim instead (for instance).

With the XBOne, your connection going down for a couple of minute interrupts your daily verification, and you cannot play anything, even single-player games, for a day or possibly until you call MS service (average turnaround on account issues: on the order of a week) because the corrupted check-in registered as an attempted spoof.
I'm sorry but unless you have actual proof of that process I call that fear mongering.

Here's what I believe will happen with the Xbox One

Turn it on
Ooops no internet connection
Can't access games.
Five minutes later internet is back on
Xbox tries to reconnect
Games enabled
Carry on.


See the internet doesn't work that way. If I try to go to a website with Internet Explorer and it's not available, it will tell me, and then I retry. You telling me that Xbox One will have less functionality than that? I don't think so.

Cannot connect. Retry?
YES
Cannot connect. Retry?
YES
Connection to Xbox Live made
Play game.
He is right though, Microsoft has already stated that the XOne needs be connected to the internet at all times, it has to check in at least one hour a day in order to work. If it can't do that due to internet being down, and it happens a lot. There is only one internet service provider where I live and they can't keep the damn thing stable all the time. If the XOne can't check in then you can't play any video games, but you can still watch movies and shows. YAY!(sarcasm) If it goes down for instance in the middle of a game you are playing you only have an hour window before it shuts down your video game.

It isn't fear mongering.

All you have to do is go the microsoft website, look up Xbox One specs and read the entire thing. It's all there in digital black and white my friend.