John Williams and why he isnt a great composer.

[Hiraeth]

So OP, basically because John Williams doesn't write complex music, his music has no value? If I were to carry that logic through to another medium, say the art world, then by the same logic someone like Mondrian is a total hack.
http://www.bijlmakers.com/art/images/Mondriaan%20Yellow%20Blue%20Red%20300.JPG
Hell, I could have done that with a ruler and some paint brushes.

How about if instead of using the comparison to Beiber *shudders* we instead compare Williams to Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote for the people, and was widely maligned by his contemporaries as being a talentless hack who was overreaching his status by trying to compete with university educated writers. He's now considered one of, if not the, best writer in the history of the English language.

There are words in our language that he created. If I say 'to be or not to be' you know what I'm talking about. If I hum those two notes from Jaws you know what I'm talking about. John Williams is talented precisely because he can write those little musical hooks that get into your head and stick there. Sure, maybe he's not that skillful, maybe anyone could have done what he did, the point is that they didn't. Any idiot could have painted some black squares and filled some of them in with yellow, blue or red paint, but they didn't. Being able to see things that are so simple, yet turning them into something else is what I feel makes a genius, more so than being able to adequately construct something, that while complex, that is entirely forgettable. That's not to say complexity is a bad thing, but to say that simplicity doesn't have to be.

 

[Cazza]

But... But... But Star Wars, dude. Star Wars.

heavily influenced from The Planets. If you listen to all them you can hear the influence they had on the music in Star wars. How can you take credit from taking something changing it a bit and calling it yours?

The planets did influence his scores, but it's far from just taking something and changing it a little. That's like saying that The Dark Knight was taking the original Batman movies and changed them a little bit. Or that Under the Bridge was just pachelbel but changed a bit.

True it does take skill in changing something. Really though a movie compared to music is very different. He took the it from The Planets and made it into Star Wars.

It doesn't matter how simple or uncreative somthing is, if people like it that would make them good at what they do. They give people what they want.

 

[UberMore]

Well, people hear this guy's music and it sticks with them. Fortunately for him, his melodies are linked to some of the most watched and most iconic films around, so that could explain why he's so revered.

 

[orangecharger]

But... But... But Star Wars, dude. Star Wars.

That was pretty much my opinion.

The iconic music of Indiana Jones and Star Wars is enough to put him in pantheon of the best at what he does. Only time will tell if his music will stand on it's own merits beyond that.

But as I have quoted here... Star Wars, Indiana Jones, 'nuff said.

 

[Cowabungaa]

So why are we fine with this as listeners?

You're approaching this from a way too technical and way too musical angle.

Writing film scores isn't about the music, it's all about the movie. The entire purpose of a film score is to help invoke a certain emotion, help create a certain atmosphere, supplement the visual images in doing so and it has very very little time to do so. That's something completely different from the symphonies you're giving as examples.

John Williams is absolutely brilliant at doing this. What does the Indiana Jones theme make you feel? What does the Imperial March make you feel? What kind of thing would you associate those tunes with? Doesn't the Indy theme perfectly transpire that feeling of adventure? Doesn't the Imperial March perfectly describe a dictatorial regime? Doesn't the famous Jaws tune perfectly describe approaching doom?

If you ask me; yes, yes it does, hence why John Williams is a great composer, a great film composer.

Basically I'm trying to say what this guy here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.234306.8298352] says, only less finely worded.

 

[Meilthorn]

I'm amazed by some comments here. Where is john williams music simple? He worked as a jazz player. His harmony is far beyond most of classical composers, until impresionsist. Even he uses so many tensions, and 11ths 13ths and all the tools that impresionists had, but he makes it romantically. As a jazz player he understands tensions way better than any other kind of musician. He writes down romantic themes , in the musical sense with all the complexity in harmony. Simple chords? where? in the diminished 11ths 5th inversions of riders the lost arch, that juggles from chord to chord like a devil until the theme sounds ful? simple counterpoint? where ? His orchestration is great and very bright, and with such a dynamics, that scares. Harry potter simple? did u listen to the counterpoint? It is better than the carnival overture of Dvorak almost( for u mentioned him). I think u mix .. melodies that are of easy memorization with simplicity. The themes from Williams u memorize are because he has strength in the theme, cause it is expresive. The fact u can memorize it doesnt say but it is superexpresive. Indeed he has a melodic imagination that reminds me to tchaikovsky a lot. And he wrote an amazing amount of music. He wrote seveal symphonies and many concerts. For tuba , chello, basson! did u listen to em?? U are judging a soundtrack as a classica composition? if u do it, know that john williams makes the most similar thing to absolute music , doing programatic music. Even he didnt makethe music of e.t. for the movie. The end of the movie was done for his music to fit in. Cause the context, direction, sense , thematic consistency.. , he vaires the themes a lot, and the counter melodies , the answering themes, the number of themes he can create is amazing. Im not american, and i realy think u all shoudl be proud of having that guy . i wish i were there for listening and watch him conducting. His hands are amazing.

 

[Meilthorn]

and i should add, he does write complex music, if u call complex , highly disonant or schonberg like. Try check the disney hall innnaguration concert. On youtube. Actually he tends to write very complex things. But cares of what u can get, while watching.

 

[Alandoril]

Great composition isn't about technique, it's about effect.

 

[Meilthorn]

and influences are in every composer. Stravinsky said the good composer copies. And it is stupid to say that the merit is for Hoslt. It is as if i would say that the merit of the general theory of gravitation is cause of fidgerald compression. It was a tinny idea that gave birth to a great thing. just that

 

[Meilthorn]

i agree

 

[Serperoth]

So a basic, yet compelling melody is somehow not good? I disagree, with all due respect. The point of music isn't always to push the limits of the "hardware", or to reinvent the wheel. I, for one, like simpler stuff. The Indy theme you mentioned, when I hear it my mind screams "INDY!". Similar with Star Wars and the Harry Potter theme. The Imperial March is basically Darth Vader distilled in musical form.
Yes, there's better/more technical/more complex/whatever you want music out there. But just because there is, it doesn't mean that Mr. Williams is not a great composer.

 

[moose_man]

Who cares? It's STAR WARS. And INDIANA JONES! Two of the MOST memorable theme songs in history.

 

[BonsaiK]

While we do have a pretty memorable melody what the harmony and rhythm behind it is very unimaginative and quite boring. let me ask you what does it do besides beat out a basic rhythm and the basic chord. This isnt so bad a lot of good composer suffer from this but what makes it worse is the fact he does very little to change up the theme besides put it in a different key. Wheres the variation?

Sometimes the simple things in life are the best. Sometimes getting straight to the point is better than beating around the bush. He writes stuff, people dig it, it works, for what it is. Not everything has to be all fancy schmancy to be effective.

 

[Aurgelmir]

I was watch extra credits and this topic entered my mind. I am not trying to flame and please read my whole post before you respond.

I am a music major and i have spent my whole life trying to understand music/prefect it. (Yes I know either isn't possible) John William isn't a highly skilled or talented composer like everyone believe him to be. My main argument for is that while he does write a good melody he doesnt do anything with it. ill use the Indiana Jones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVNNhBtBbOs theme song as an example for this but all of his works fall under this same category. While we do have a pretty memorable melody what the harmony and rhythm behind it is very unimaginative and quite boring. let me ask you what does it do besides beat out a basic rhythm and the basic chord. This isnt so bad a lot of good composer suffer from this but what makes it worse is the fact he does very little to change up the theme besides put it in a different key. Wheres the variation? wheres the augmentation or diminution (to make the melody longer or shorter) why cant he find a good way to meld the fast and the slow section together? So why are we fine with this as listeners? so if something as a good melody we are willing to accepted all its faults and phrase it? Do you want to know the kicker John Williams Only writes the melody of a piece he hires out other composers to do everything else. He is supposed to be the most skilled composer of my generation? I am the only person who finds this unacceptable? in college we never play him and we use him as an example of bad writing in some cases. He isn't skilled, and he doesn't have the skill enough to write something that isn't a part of a movie score. tell me honestly would you even know of the imperial march if it wasn't a part of the star wars movies?

Now i want to show an example of good music writing. I will use a melody that everyone knows. Its from Brahms symphony 2. Its the famous lullaby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcqHxnGfV7c is probably how most of us know the tune (this isn't my example piece but i am just showing the melody that we all know). Great melody isn't it. Reminds us all of pleasant childhood days or of sleeping. If we listen to the original symphony where it came from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UccOlCBcIs8&feature=PlayList&p=085728D7F5CD456E&index=0 (listen to the first 5 minutes please) we dont even hear that famous melody until 2:50 seconds into it It starts of with a complete different melody and it blends into the lullaby so beautifully. This as a piece goes place and does so many wonderfully things with the variation on said melody. The harmoys almost sound as if the were the melody them selves and the whole thing is just well written from every standpoint. Chords are complex but enjoyable. melody is simple but the varations end up making it complex as well.

Forgive spelling errors (i did proof this but at the end of the day i am not a good speller)

You are sort of enforcing what the Extra Credit video said though. Simpler is more memorable.
The Beatles make great music, but its not the most complex music in the world.

That said, comparing Williams to Brahms is sort of like comparing the a Ford to a Ferrari... they are both cars, but they are in different league, but the market has room for both.

 

[Meilthorn]

Indiana knows theme the harmony is complex. Dont u hear the inverted dimished 11th? or the modal modulation. Do you think everyone can do this? brahms coudnt. It has nothing, it is all diatonic almost. doesnt modulate. And the one inetersting thing is a dominant it has,and few more things. Do you know how many more things indiana jones theme has?? U are not even a musician i say. Melody of brahms doesnt vary. compklex chords where? It is ridiculous. At least i know that most of people can see the diference.
Now u check this, and tell me if it varies or not. ( and indiana does 2, has 2 parts of 2 parts each tne, which brahms doesnt have).. and see how it is modulated. But dont lie to me saying u studied music. Come on. Just someoone who didnt could compare those 2 and say brahms is more complex. And people is not stupid. I knwo some music too, and the rest of people do. Dont u see they realize u dont?

 

[Meilthorn]

If u would have chosen something about counterpoint from brahms, maybe. He was a master in that. but in creating themes, few can better than williams. I dont know what is the sense of trying to make him look bad. And about copying, did u try to compose? Cause most of what it is about is recalling from memory pieces u internalized and made u feel music. And though whiches u learnt relative pitch and more skills. Well that if u dont do something based on reasoning, more.. neoclasicist. Even when not trying to , it happens. If u pay attention things are there. But none who would know would say it is to copy. at all. We are what we are cause of who we learnt from. Just taht, Williams might sound like steiner, korngold, hermannn, and it is perfectly logical. As it is perfectly logical, that brahms, that piece u chose, is less. If u dont believe me do an harmonic analisis, for ur ear doesnt seem to tell u . Download it.( the score)

 

[FalloutJack]

Oh, this is a silly argument. Just because ME! doesn't do anything outside of movies and such doesn't mean that he isn't a good composer. Music exists and must be composed, especially if you needed an entire orchistra to do it. ME! created and composed the music for films, ergo he is a composer. And if people like what ME! composes, then he must be a great composer.

QED

 

[Meilthorn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilnDB1nl7Xc here it is e.t. i forgot.