"Just go watch Porn!" (Probably NFSW, duh)

[JamesStone]

The responses are attacking him.

Nah, not really. Only someone with remarkably thin skin would deem these responses as personal attacks.

OP literally describes (IRL) porn as "incredibly fake, and most of the time people aren't actually enjoying themselves". If the OP scoured the internet for porn and came to the above conclusion, then the OP is both objectively wrong and also he didn't look very hard.

Pointing this out is not a personal attack on him.

Is it? That's the view he gets from looking at porn and you're saying he's wrong about his tastes. It is a ton of posts just saying the OP's opinion is wrong, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he has emotional problems, etc. Very few people are actually addressing his argument (which is "why is he told to "just go watch porn" when this is what he wants" in case anyone forgot).

So what? An opinion can be wrong, and many are. I'm honestly flabbergastered every time I hear this argument. It's like when someone tries to justify a crappy play/book/whatever entire class of entertainment the pseudo-intellectuals cluster around by saying "It's a metaphor!". So what? There is such a thing as a shitty metaphor, and there is such a thing as a shitty, wrong opinion.

That is not at all true. There are opinions you don't agree with. There are opinions that not many people agree with. There are poorly researched opinions. But there is no such thing as a wrong opinion.

"All niggers/chinks/[whatever the slang for jew is]/retarded/non-aryan people are the scum of the Earth and deserve nothing but painful execution".


Feel free to invoke Godwin's law. There is such a thing as a wrong opinion, and I'm starting to believe that bullshit about PCness gone wrong or whatever if we truly reached an age where every opinion is supposed to be this precious little thing that can never be wrong. If you think the Earth was born 6000 years ago, that's all fine and dandy, it's your opinion, but your opinion is wrong, and being an opinion does absolutely nothing to prevent it from being wrong.

In the case of YEC's, it's a fact that can be disputed. They're just incorrectly using the word "opinion".

As to the first statement, that's an opinion that not many people agree with, but it is an opinion nonetheless. It can't be right or wrong, by definition.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment:
to ask for a second medical opinion.
4.
Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.:
to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6.
a favorable estimate; esteem:
I haven't much of an opinion of him.


Notice how absolutely nothing in the DEFINITION of opinion says it can't be right or wrong. It can, and many are. If you think the sky is blue, that's your opinion, and you're wrong and possibly sick.

Are we really at the dictionary point? Alright then, how do you prove an opinion wrong?

Case by case analysis. In my previous example, we prove the sky isn't red (said blue my mistake) by goddamned looking at it. We prove black people aren't inheritly inferior by scientific analysis.

And yes, when you're going around appropriating words and needlessly change their meaning just to fit an agenda/argument, we get to the dictionary point.

So you prove facts. What about opinions?

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty

An opinion is an unconfirmed belief that we hold as true. If it's confirmed true, and as such proven as a fact, it's right. If it's proven false, then it's wrong. It's as simple as that.

Many opinions can't be confirmed as right or wrong because they are formed about very complex and deep topics that require major discussion and are always shifting based on society's values, like, let's say, the rights of the trangesder.

Opinions on completely frivolous topics such as the OP's are not subjected to such ambiguity. Saying that real life porn looks incredibly fake yet clamoring and defending the substitute offered by DOAX is a wrong opinion, and pointing out his belief has a major hole in it does not constitute a personal attack in any way, shape or form, unless it's taylor-made to be so.

So what's your proof?

You are quite the master at extending a pointless argument for the sake of nothing but petty bickering, aren't you?

You're the one that started arguing with me.

The proof is obtained by measuring levels of reality. It is hard to take someone who claims real-life porn looks "fake" yet finds solace in drawn/animated porn, which is several levels more detached from reality than real-life porn. Which is not to say his opinion that porn looks fake to be wrong, that's just personal taste, but to claim that it looks fake when compared to animated porn/ecchi it is wrong and preposterous. It's also a good sign of a wrong opinion when someone's defending the integrity of a product who's own productors already admitted it to be nonexistant. Look no further than DOA2's (I think) "she kicks high" commercial.

So the staged sex devoid of all context between professionals with no attachment objectively feels more real than the animated dating sim?

On the account of actually being real, yes, yes it does.

Those screen images are no more real than any other screen image. The sounds are made the same way. OP feels more from ecchi than from contextless porn. He's not right or wrong in thinking this.

What he feels is not right or wrong. Claiming that ecchi/hentai is more real than porn is ridiculous and wrong. And yes, these screen images are more real than screen images of things that don't actually exist, and it is idiotic to the highest degree to try and say otherwise. Do you feel the same about a picture of Owen and Beru's carbonized skeletons than you feel about the result of a civilian shot to death in Syria?

And yet again it comes down to objective facts. An opinion can be wrong because it is nothing more than a belief that can be or not supported by facts. No matter how you try to change the definition to fit the argument, that is the simplificated definition of opinion by commom consensus, so unless you want to form your own language and give your own meaning to words, by, again, DEFINITION an opinion can be right or wrong, and the opinion that porn is more fake than ecchi is wrong.

If OP feels more strongly about ecchi than he feels for real-life porn that's fine and dandy and I respect his feelings, but that doesn't change reality. I can claim all I want that Evil Dead's writing rivals Shakespeare, or that the sky is red, or even that lions are strictly herbivores. Those would be my opinions, and I'd be completely and utterly wrong.

Too bad the OP never claimed that objectively ecchi is more real than regular porn.

The real seems fake because its set-up, while the fake seems more real because its less staged and fun.

I've seen porn. But I don't really like it. I feel its incredibly fake

If he had, you might have had a point. But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

Which is why I repeteadly said "if". Because I'm not arguing against the OP, I'm arguing against your notion that opinions can't be wrong, which is a stupid discussion because it's essentially you vs the formal definition of the word, but then again let's not let such things as facts and reality dissuade our arguments.

And again, one can still call upon the inherit absurdity of constrasting the fakeness of live-action porn with Dead and goddamned Alive Extreme without it being a personal attack.
Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

 

[IceForce]

But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

I really don't know where you're getting this idea from.

Spoiler: (Critical Miss to the rescue)

I'm curious, would you say Hitler's opinions on the Jews were wrong?

Or for something a bit more close to home, if someone claimed it was their opinion that Gamergate was a harassment campaign, then you'd say it's impossible for them to be wrong?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The responses are attacking him.

Nah, not really. Only someone with remarkably thin skin would deem these responses as personal attacks.

OP literally describes (IRL) porn as "incredibly fake, and most of the time people aren't actually enjoying themselves". If the OP scoured the internet for porn and came to the above conclusion, then the OP is both objectively wrong and also he didn't look very hard.

Pointing this out is not a personal attack on him.

Is it? That's the view he gets from looking at porn and you're saying he's wrong about his tastes. It is a ton of posts just saying the OP's opinion is wrong, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he has emotional problems, etc. Very few people are actually addressing his argument (which is "why is he told to "just go watch porn" when this is what he wants" in case anyone forgot).

So what? An opinion can be wrong, and many are. I'm honestly flabbergastered every time I hear this argument. It's like when someone tries to justify a crappy play/book/whatever entire class of entertainment the pseudo-intellectuals cluster around by saying "It's a metaphor!". So what? There is such a thing as a shitty metaphor, and there is such a thing as a shitty, wrong opinion.

That is not at all true. There are opinions you don't agree with. There are opinions that not many people agree with. There are poorly researched opinions. But there is no such thing as a wrong opinion.

"All niggers/chinks/[whatever the slang for jew is]/retarded/non-aryan people are the scum of the Earth and deserve nothing but painful execution".


Feel free to invoke Godwin's law. There is such a thing as a wrong opinion, and I'm starting to believe that bullshit about PCness gone wrong or whatever if we truly reached an age where every opinion is supposed to be this precious little thing that can never be wrong. If you think the Earth was born 6000 years ago, that's all fine and dandy, it's your opinion, but your opinion is wrong, and being an opinion does absolutely nothing to prevent it from being wrong.

In the case of YEC's, it's a fact that can be disputed. They're just incorrectly using the word "opinion".

As to the first statement, that's an opinion that not many people agree with, but it is an opinion nonetheless. It can't be right or wrong, by definition.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment:
to ask for a second medical opinion.
4.
Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.:
to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6.
a favorable estimate; esteem:
I haven't much of an opinion of him.


Notice how absolutely nothing in the DEFINITION of opinion says it can't be right or wrong. It can, and many are. If you think the sky is blue, that's your opinion, and you're wrong and possibly sick.

Are we really at the dictionary point? Alright then, how do you prove an opinion wrong?

Case by case analysis. In my previous example, we prove the sky isn't red (said blue my mistake) by goddamned looking at it. We prove black people aren't inheritly inferior by scientific analysis.

And yes, when you're going around appropriating words and needlessly change their meaning just to fit an agenda/argument, we get to the dictionary point.

So you prove facts. What about opinions?

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty

An opinion is an unconfirmed belief that we hold as true. If it's confirmed true, and as such proven as a fact, it's right. If it's proven false, then it's wrong. It's as simple as that.

Many opinions can't be confirmed as right or wrong because they are formed about very complex and deep topics that require major discussion and are always shifting based on society's values, like, let's say, the rights of the trangesder.

Opinions on completely frivolous topics such as the OP's are not subjected to such ambiguity. Saying that real life porn looks incredibly fake yet clamoring and defending the substitute offered by DOAX is a wrong opinion, and pointing out his belief has a major hole in it does not constitute a personal attack in any way, shape or form, unless it's taylor-made to be so.

So what's your proof?

You are quite the master at extending a pointless argument for the sake of nothing but petty bickering, aren't you?

You're the one that started arguing with me.

The proof is obtained by measuring levels of reality. It is hard to take someone who claims real-life porn looks "fake" yet finds solace in drawn/animated porn, which is several levels more detached from reality than real-life porn. Which is not to say his opinion that porn looks fake to be wrong, that's just personal taste, but to claim that it looks fake when compared to animated porn/ecchi it is wrong and preposterous. It's also a good sign of a wrong opinion when someone's defending the integrity of a product who's own productors already admitted it to be nonexistant. Look no further than DOA2's (I think) "she kicks high" commercial.

So the staged sex devoid of all context between professionals with no attachment objectively feels more real than the animated dating sim?

On the account of actually being real, yes, yes it does.

Those screen images are no more real than any other screen image. The sounds are made the same way. OP feels more from ecchi than from contextless porn. He's not right or wrong in thinking this.

What he feels is not right or wrong. Claiming that ecchi/hentai is more real than porn is ridiculous and wrong. And yes, these screen images are more real than screen images of things that don't actually exist, and it is idiotic to the highest degree to try and say otherwise. Do you feel the same about a picture of Owen and Beru's carbonized skeletons than you feel about the result of a civilian shot to death in Syria?

And yet again it comes down to objective facts. An opinion can be wrong because it is nothing more than a belief that can be or not supported by facts. No matter how you try to change the definition to fit the argument, that is the simplificated definition of opinion by commom consensus, so unless you want to form your own language and give your own meaning to words, by, again, DEFINITION an opinion can be right or wrong, and the opinion that porn is more fake than ecchi is wrong.

If OP feels more strongly about ecchi than he feels for real-life porn that's fine and dandy and I respect his feelings, but that doesn't change reality. I can claim all I want that Evil Dead's writing rivals Shakespeare, or that the sky is red, or even that lions are strictly herbivores. Those would be my opinions, and I'd be completely and utterly wrong.

Too bad the OP never claimed that objectively ecchi is more real than regular porn.

The real seems fake because its set-up, while the fake seems more real because its less staged and fun.

I've seen porn. But I don't really like it. I feel its incredibly fake

If he had, you might have had a point. But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

Which is why I repeteadly said "if". Because I'm not arguing against the OP, I'm arguing against your notion that opinions can't be wrong, which is a stupid discussion because it's essentially you vs the formal definition of the word, but then again let's not let such things as facts and reality dissuade our arguments.

And again, one can still call upon the inherit absurdity of constrasting the fakeness of live-action porn with Dead and goddamned Alive Extreme without it being a personal attack.
Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Any one softcore porn would then invalidate other softcore porn existing. This is not the point. OP wants DoA and just telling him his opinion is invalid is not a valid response.

And opinions are unfalsifiable. If they are falsifiable, they're not opinions.

But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

I really don't know where you're getting this idea from.

Reality.

I'm curious, would you say Hitler's opinions on the Jews were wrong?

Or for something a bit more close to home, if someone claimed it was their opinion that Gamergate was a harassment campaign, then you'd say it's impossible for them to be wrong?

I'd say they were misguided and with his power destructive. But not wrong.

I'm trying to think if that's a falsifiable statement. I suppose there would have to be a definition for a harassment campaign. But let's do us both a favor and not turn this into a GG discussion.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

The issue isn't about opinions being right or wrong, the issue is that opinions are not really right or wrong. They're just thoughts we have, and that's all. That's the point, not to validate your every whim or become the ultimate sophist/relativist.

Youuuuu, haven't been reading my posts, have you?

But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

I'm here to defend OP's tastes. Some people think anime girls are weird, and regular porn is fine. Neither are weird, both are fine.

Again, is the issue about his tastes, or his frustration and depression around real women? That's not a taste, that's a disability.

Disability? Perhaps OP got tired of watching real porn and now prefers anime girls or something. Maybe he was like "I've seen it all, I want something new" or something like that. I don't know anything about his life, so i'm not going to make any assumptions or judge.

Maybe you should read some more of the thread, it would answer those questions you have.

Its not that I don't find real women attractive - its just much less depressing and frustrating when its 2D women.

That's what I've been talking about, and that's nothing to do with porn.

I know, I read it. Now that I've read it again it sounds worse.

But he never says that he abandoned all hope in the real world. You might think that he's saying that, but I want a definite answer, because frankly it's insulting to assume so first. That's what I meant when we should have clarification. Unfortunately we never got it.

Actually it's common for weebs to say 2D better than 3D as a joke. It's sounds really strange, but I found a thread full of people who prefer hentai to real life. Most likely they weren't joking. Weird tastes but understandable.

 

[Redd the Sock]

So really, as far as I'm concerned this whole "why don't you just look at porn" comes from a very specific and very restrictive mindset as to what's "proper" and what "isn't" when it comes to media.

Honestly, I think the question gets asked by people that are more sex-negative than they want to admit to themselves, and the firm line between titillation and "normal" entertainment must be there and very clear so that they can feel sex-positive without having to face a more sex positive (and less repressed) world.

Yes, when confronted by criticism of either oneself or something one likes, it is very typical and tempting to try and cast aspersions upon the source of the criticism. Sure, they're criticizing you, but they're prudes, so it stands to reason. I'd say it's a relatively new cultural phenomenon...IE jump on the whole "participation award" generation slam wagon and pretend that young people need constant approval or their balls drop off...but in reality it's a pretty human thing to do. "Oh, X said a bad thing about me? Well, I'm amazing, so clearly X is stupid." We are, after all, the protagonists in our own life stories.

Personally, I have what qualifies as an extremely liberal and forgiving attitude towards sex. I'm not terribly keen on some of the less savory aspects, particularly where the porn/escort industry tends to overlap with human trafficking...but the concept that I'd be "sex negative", or "have a very specific or restrictive mindset as to what's proper" is...frankly...hilarious. And yet, in spite of this, I think DOAX is a ridiculous joke. I thought the same thing about Quiet and the (rather hilarious) explanations behind her bikini clad attire. I don't CARE, I'm not going to petition the games out of existence, and if I thought such a thing was actually apt to happen I'd probably argue vehemently for their survival...but I think they're fucking ridiculous. And I think listening to people argue about DOAX3 being EVER SO MILDLY more problematic to purchase (IE, you might have to buy something ONLINE, the horror!) as if they were Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on the bus to be so fucking ridiculous that I find it difficult to put into words.

It's a titty game. It's stupid. I don't care if people like it or not, we all like something stupid from time to time, but for gods sake just own it. OP is literally stressing out because people on the internet are disrespecting jiggly anime girls playing volleyball. This, apparently, is beyond reproach. I'm speechless.

Okay, first off, don't get defensive unless I'm talking about you specifically.

Secondly, the "minor inconvenience" in buying DOAX3 or other import games is an extra 20 - 30 dollars plus shipping and no access to any DLC (for which DOAX3 will be full of). So someone's ability to not accidentally be offended by this at Gamestop costs those that want the game a fair bit. (I mentioned Moe Chronicle which ran me double the cost of a normal vita game)

As for the main course: remember the context of the thread: being asked why we don't watch porn instead of liking titillation in video games and other media. You don't often hear: why don't you go to a gun range instead of playing Call of Duty, or why don't you go play whatever sport the game you're playing is about. That in and of itself impies the question comes from someone that thinks a clear line needs to be drawn between normal entertainment and material meant to titillate.

It does kind of beg the question why? Why should Quiet be seen as weird, and more out of place than Hewey's giant metal Sayter legs, or the guy in MGS3 covered in hornets? Why look at a game to look at half naked girls as sillier than a game like Dear Ester where you look at the scenery, or something heavy in cinematics? Sex and sexualization outside of porn seems to get a lot of undue negativity for reasons that seem to apply just as much to things without sex but aren't accuses of ruining or holding back the industry.

It is just a theory of mine at the moment, and this isn't to target you specifically, but as a general though for people: if you are more often than not on the side that thinks something sexual is silly, stupid, wrong, problematic, harmful, or just happy if it gets taken away, you may not be as sex positive as you think you are.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sex and sexualization outside of porn seems to get a lot of undue negativity for reasons that seem to apply just as much to things without sex but aren't accuses of ruining or holding back the industry.

Is anyone making that argument in this thread?

If you are more often than not on the side that thinks something sexual is silly, stupid, wrong, problematic, harmful, or just happy if it gets taken away, you may not be as sex positive as you think you are.

I think a lot of people aren't as tolerant as they think they are. From my perspective, they tend to stand out as the people hurling blanket pejoratives at armies of imaginary enemies, or making poisoned well statements implying that anyone who disagrees with them on particular issues is somehow wanting...whether they are described as puritans, or zealots, or whatever the label du jour is.

I keep reading posts from people who I am to understand are hyper sensitive to insults or even perceived insults, to the point where they accepted that "potential criticism" was sufficient reason to not regionally release a game. So much so they found it far, far more convincing than the fact the game never sold well to begin with. These seem to be the same people who feel quite comfortable raining insults like confetti when the targets are more to their liking. Now, pointing out incidences of hypocrisy in these debates is becoming really tiresome, it's like pointing out fish in the ocean, but I'm genuinely confused what message I'm supposed to be taking away from all this. The message I keep getting is "nothing is sacred, except for titty games, and the people who like them".

People are welcome to their creeds, I guess, that's just a particularly confusing one, from my POV.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

The issue isn't about opinions being right or wrong, the issue is that opinions are not really right or wrong. They're just thoughts we have, and that's all. That's the point, not to validate your every whim or become the ultimate sophist/relativist.

I think, in regards to your point, you're trying to settle the difference between being objectively right/wrong and the idea that subjective opinions are never right or wrong as they're subjective. One can think that one can have an opinion on factual information, and be wrong in that opinion because the matter in question is not actually subjective because its based in facts.

Am I hitting the nail close to the head?

 

[IceForce]

These seem to be the same people who feel quite comfortable raining insults like confetti when the targets are more to their choosing.

Yeah... MovieBob had a nifty little saying regarding that. Something about tactics and targets and some such...

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Well...

It all boils down to preferences.

Some people like X. Some people like Y.

Some people dislike X. Some people dislike Y.

Some people who like Y/X don't like that some people like X/Y.

Some people then take their dislike, scrunch it down into a ball of anger, bitterness, resentment, and general asshattery, then vomit out their innermost hatreds and insecurities through their keyboards, directly into the faces of people who had the grave misfortune of having an affinity for X/Y.

Some people are just dicks.

Spoiler: Also, this.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Sex and sexualization outside of porn seems to get a lot of undue negativity for reasons that seem to apply just as much to things without sex but aren't accuses of ruining or holding back the industry.

Is anyone making that argument in this thread?

If you are more often than not on the side that thinks something sexual is silly, stupid, wrong, problematic, harmful, or just happy if it gets taken away, you may not be as sex positive as you think you are.

I think a lot of people aren't as tolerant as they think they are. From my perspective, they tend to stand out as the people hurling blanket pejoratives at armies of imaginary enemies, or making poisoned well statements implying that anyone who disagrees with them on particular issues is somehow wanting...whether they are described as puritans, or zealots, or whatever the label du jour is.

I keep reading posts from people who I am to understand are hyper sensitive to insults or even perceived insults, to the point where they accepted that "potential criticism" was sufficient reason to not regionally release a game. So much so they found it far, far more convincing than the fact the game never sold well to begin with. These seem to be the same people who feel quite comfortable raining insults like confetti when the targets are more to their liking. Now, pointing out incidences of hypocrisy in these debates is becoming really tiresome, it's like pointing out fish in the ocean, but I'm genuinely confused what message I'm supposed to be taking away from all this. The message I keep getting is "nothing is sacred, except for titty games, and the people who like them".

People are welcome to their creeds, I guess, that's just a particularly confusing one, from my POV.

In fairness, the same goes to the other side. Can't criticize the critic criticizing the games, and gmaers have to quit being angry about being called sexists, virgin loser neckbeards, and terrorists, but "SJW nonsense" is enough to swarm an online store with empty threats and anger.

Honestly, what I'm taking away from the DOAX3 debacle is that the efforts to make gaming more inclusive have had the opposite effect, making them even more angry, protective, and hostile to outsiders, and right now, created a market for products that piss off "SJWs". Then again, I've been saying that for a couple of years now. Try to be part of the group, then insult and be indifferent to the feelings of the people in it first, and yeah, you're going to make enemies, not friends.

 

[Deathmageddon]

And I have to wonder...are people really so blind? That maybe its the fact that its not actually porn that makes people like it?

Hit the nail on the head right there. I thought everyone over 13 knew that it's about achieving balance between what's seen and not seen. That's why lingerie is a thing.

That, and it seems to ignore personal preference too; maybe someone doesn't like actual sex that much but just likes attractive women?

That also describes me perfectly. I won't even watch an anime if it's based on an eroge. Hard to enjoy UFOTable's animation knowing parts of Fate's source material were included with the sole, cynical purpose of making the player c**.

 

[Something Amyss]

Secondly, the "minor inconvenience" in buying DOAX3 or other import games is an extra 20 - 30 dollars plus shipping and no access to any DLC (for which DOAX3 will be full of).

ie what literally any other person importing a niche game has to deal with.

As for the main course: remember the context of the thread: being asked why we don't watch porn instead of liking titillation in video games and other media. You don't often hear: why don't you go to a gun range instead of playing Call of Duty, or why don't you go play whatever sport the game you're playing is about.

Actually, those are kind of common arguments. People have also been told to join the military instead of play COD, learn a real instrument instead of play Guitar Hero/Rock Band (hilarious to me because I play guitar and piano), or go join a racing club instead of playing Need For Speed. I've also seen "start your own illegal race circuit," but I think it was intended to be funny. These are pretty common things, all told, and "just watch porn" doesn't seem to be particularly outstanding except for how people decided to react to it.

It does kind of beg the question why? Why should Quiet be seen as weird, and more out of place than Hewey's giant metal Sayter legs, or the guy in MGS3 covered in hornets? Why look at a game to look at half naked girls as sillier than a game like Dear Ester where you look at the scenery, or something heavy in cinematics?

I'm confused. Which of those are porn? Because this is supposed to somehow be related to the topic at hand, right?

Sex and sexualization outside of porn seems to get a lot of undue negativity for reasons that seem to apply just as much to things without sex but aren't accuses of ruining or holding back the industry.

The overall response here seems to be "stop pretending it's not porn, we don't care what you spank to" rather than "this is ruining or holding back the industry." Who, exactly, are these people who are being so negative to sex and sexuality?

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

The overall response here seems to be "stop pretending it's not porn, we don't care what you spank to" rather than "this is ruining or holding back the industry."

This is an attitude I can understand more than anything. I personally have no shame in admitting that I sometimes enjoy the over-the-top stylized basically-fap-material. I've no issue with it being in games myself, and only have one lingering request that developers stop trying to rationalize it and call a spade a spade, or in this case call it fanservice/fap material, so long as its honest. *shrug*

I dunno what that adds to the discussion, but I just had to point out that I am quite happy that there are more people being rational about the idea of it not being a problem other than dishonest intentions/rationalizations.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Wait what? This might be one of the strangest things I have ever seen someone claim. How in the world does the existence of softcore porn invalidate the reason for DOAX to exist? You might as well say Super Mario Bros invalidates the existence of Mega Man.

I mean, DOAX is really quite unique. There isn't anything else like it out there.

 

[Callate]

It's more than a little weird to me in general that so many people seem to want everything sexual in media to be ghettoized into the pornography category.

Why is it a presumption that "pornography" indicates a ghetto category? Certainly there is problematic pornography, but it's an extremely generalized label that covers an extremely wide range of erotic material. It's not a default snarl word. There's an entire thread of people here shrugging at pornography and saying they have no problem with it, and yet we still have people chiming in to share their distress at the designation. It's baffling.

"Ghettoized" in its original sense does not imply a negative, only a segregation. The occupants of a ghetto may be worse off for being so segregated- and I'd argue that the broad spectrum of the erotic is also made poorer if it's restricted to only what exists for erotic purposes, and almost exclusively those purposes- but that doesn't mean the occupants were inherently bad for being put there. A Greek sculpture or a Botticelli painting might be seen as erotic by some, but placing them next to Debbie Does Dallas or some piece of camcorder-recorded anything-goes amateur gonzo video does not encourage viewers to contemplate them as anything else.

 

[sumanoskae]

It's nobody's business what gets you off. I'm still going to recommend that you YouTube that shit, and save yourself 60 bucks. The argument I would level against DOAX is not directed at it's content, but it's chosen medium. There is no reason to be charging people full price for what amounts to a virtual strip tease.

 

[JamesStone]

The responses are attacking him.

Nah, not really. Only someone with remarkably thin skin would deem these responses as personal attacks.

OP literally describes (IRL) porn as "incredibly fake, and most of the time people aren't actually enjoying themselves". If the OP scoured the internet for porn and came to the above conclusion, then the OP is both objectively wrong and also he didn't look very hard.

Pointing this out is not a personal attack on him.

Is it? That's the view he gets from looking at porn and you're saying he's wrong about his tastes. It is a ton of posts just saying the OP's opinion is wrong, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he has emotional problems, etc. Very few people are actually addressing his argument (which is "why is he told to "just go watch porn" when this is what he wants" in case anyone forgot).

So what? An opinion can be wrong, and many are. I'm honestly flabbergastered every time I hear this argument. It's like when someone tries to justify a crappy play/book/whatever entire class of entertainment the pseudo-intellectuals cluster around by saying "It's a metaphor!". So what? There is such a thing as a shitty metaphor, and there is such a thing as a shitty, wrong opinion.

That is not at all true. There are opinions you don't agree with. There are opinions that not many people agree with. There are poorly researched opinions. But there is no such thing as a wrong opinion.

"All niggers/chinks/[whatever the slang for jew is]/retarded/non-aryan people are the scum of the Earth and deserve nothing but painful execution".


Feel free to invoke Godwin's law. There is such a thing as a wrong opinion, and I'm starting to believe that bullshit about PCness gone wrong or whatever if we truly reached an age where every opinion is supposed to be this precious little thing that can never be wrong. If you think the Earth was born 6000 years ago, that's all fine and dandy, it's your opinion, but your opinion is wrong, and being an opinion does absolutely nothing to prevent it from being wrong.

In the case of YEC's, it's a fact that can be disputed. They're just incorrectly using the word "opinion".

As to the first statement, that's an opinion that not many people agree with, but it is an opinion nonetheless. It can't be right or wrong, by definition.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment:
to ask for a second medical opinion.
4.
Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.:
to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6.
a favorable estimate; esteem:
I haven't much of an opinion of him.


Notice how absolutely nothing in the DEFINITION of opinion says it can't be right or wrong. It can, and many are. If you think the sky is blue, that's your opinion, and you're wrong and possibly sick.

Are we really at the dictionary point? Alright then, how do you prove an opinion wrong?

Case by case analysis. In my previous example, we prove the sky isn't red (said blue my mistake) by goddamned looking at it. We prove black people aren't inheritly inferior by scientific analysis.

And yes, when you're going around appropriating words and needlessly change their meaning just to fit an agenda/argument, we get to the dictionary point.

So you prove facts. What about opinions?

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty

An opinion is an unconfirmed belief that we hold as true. If it's confirmed true, and as such proven as a fact, it's right. If it's proven false, then it's wrong. It's as simple as that.

Many opinions can't be confirmed as right or wrong because they are formed about very complex and deep topics that require major discussion and are always shifting based on society's values, like, let's say, the rights of the trangesder.

Opinions on completely frivolous topics such as the OP's are not subjected to such ambiguity. Saying that real life porn looks incredibly fake yet clamoring and defending the substitute offered by DOAX is a wrong opinion, and pointing out his belief has a major hole in it does not constitute a personal attack in any way, shape or form, unless it's taylor-made to be so.

So what's your proof?

You are quite the master at extending a pointless argument for the sake of nothing but petty bickering, aren't you?

You're the one that started arguing with me.

The proof is obtained by measuring levels of reality. It is hard to take someone who claims real-life porn looks "fake" yet finds solace in drawn/animated porn, which is several levels more detached from reality than real-life porn. Which is not to say his opinion that porn looks fake to be wrong, that's just personal taste, but to claim that it looks fake when compared to animated porn/ecchi it is wrong and preposterous. It's also a good sign of a wrong opinion when someone's defending the integrity of a product who's own productors already admitted it to be nonexistant. Look no further than DOA2's (I think) "she kicks high" commercial.

So the staged sex devoid of all context between professionals with no attachment objectively feels more real than the animated dating sim?

On the account of actually being real, yes, yes it does.

Those screen images are no more real than any other screen image. The sounds are made the same way. OP feels more from ecchi than from contextless porn. He's not right or wrong in thinking this.

What he feels is not right or wrong. Claiming that ecchi/hentai is more real than porn is ridiculous and wrong. And yes, these screen images are more real than screen images of things that don't actually exist, and it is idiotic to the highest degree to try and say otherwise. Do you feel the same about a picture of Owen and Beru's carbonized skeletons than you feel about the result of a civilian shot to death in Syria?

And yet again it comes down to objective facts. An opinion can be wrong because it is nothing more than a belief that can be or not supported by facts. No matter how you try to change the definition to fit the argument, that is the simplificated definition of opinion by commom consensus, so unless you want to form your own language and give your own meaning to words, by, again, DEFINITION an opinion can be right or wrong, and the opinion that porn is more fake than ecchi is wrong.

If OP feels more strongly about ecchi than he feels for real-life porn that's fine and dandy and I respect his feelings, but that doesn't change reality. I can claim all I want that Evil Dead's writing rivals Shakespeare, or that the sky is red, or even that lions are strictly herbivores. Those would be my opinions, and I'd be completely and utterly wrong.

Too bad the OP never claimed that objectively ecchi is more real than regular porn.

The real seems fake because its set-up, while the fake seems more real because its less staged and fun.

I've seen porn. But I don't really like it. I feel its incredibly fake

If he had, you might have had a point. But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

Which is why I repeteadly said "if". Because I'm not arguing against the OP, I'm arguing against your notion that opinions can't be wrong, which is a stupid discussion because it's essentially you vs the formal definition of the word, but then again let's not let such things as facts and reality dissuade our arguments.

And again, one can still call upon the inherit absurdity of constrasting the fakeness of live-action porn with Dead and goddamned Alive Extreme without it being a personal attack.
Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Any one softcore porn would then invalidate other softcore porn existing. This is not the point. OP wants DoA and just telling him his opinion is invalid is not a valid response.

And opinions are unfalsifiable. If they are falsifiable, they're not opinions.

But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

I really don't know where you're getting this idea from.

Reality.

I'm curious, would you say Hitler's opinions on the Jews were wrong?

Or for something a bit more close to home, if someone claimed it was their opinion that Gamergate was a harassment campaign, then you'd say it's impossible for them to be wrong?

I'd say they were misguided and with his power destructive. But not wrong.

I'm trying to think if that's a falsifiable statement. I suppose there would have to be a definition for a harassment campaign. But let's do us both a favor and not turn this into a GG discussion.

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

 

[JamesStone]

Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Wait what? This might be one of the strangest things I have ever seen someone claim. How in the world does the existence of softcore porn invalidate the reason for DOAX to exist? You might as well say Super Mario Bros invalidates the existence of Mega Man.

I mean, DOAX is really quite unique. There isn't anything else like it out there.

From my perspective, whatever DOAX can offer, softcore porn can offer in a much better state, and without the excuse of volleyball to hide behind (which ain't really an excuse by now and just a paper-thin disguise even the marketing department mocks).

I've got nothing against anyone who enjoys DOAX, it's probably someone's very particular cup of tea, I'm just saying that for what you're after when you go for DOAX, there's almost certainly a cheaper and better alternative, for volleyball games, very softcore porn or even a mixture of both.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Wait what? This might be one of the strangest things I have ever seen someone claim. How in the world does the existence of softcore porn invalidate the reason for DOAX to exist? You might as well say Super Mario Bros invalidates the existence of Mega Man.

I mean, DOAX is really quite unique. There isn't anything else like it out there.

From my perspective, whatever DOAX can offer, softcore porn can offer in a much better state, and without the excuse of volleyball to hide behind (which ain't really an excuse by now and just a paper-thin disguise even the marketing department mocks).

I've got nothing against anyone who enjoys DOAX, it's probably someone's very particular cup of tea, I'm just saying that for what you're after when you go for DOAX, there's almost certainly a cheaper and better alternative, for volleyball games, very softcore porn or even a mixture of both.

You got two out of three, but it is the one you missed that is the most unique thing about DOAX. DOAX is a dress up game. Choose your doll, choose the clothes, choose the accessories, and watch the doll be pretty in a variety of situations. People love to play dress up, and DOAX is the highest quality dress up game on the market. It has the highest quality models and the highest quality clothes and accessories.

And this is why the volley ball and all the other stupid minigames and little animation videos are so important to the game. Once you have dressed up the doll you want to see the doll in the cute outfit you put together in some sort of context.

I am 100% totally serious. It is almost worth buying the game for just that. If the dress up aspect were expanded it would be easily worth a purchase. Give it more items of clothing, a greater range of types of clothing (beautiful dresses for preference), a bunch more accessories (especially shoes and the ability to do something with their hair), and a lot more variety in the little movies you get to watch of the dolls, and make it a bit less porny in the camera angles and at least give us an option to reduce the boob jiggle and it would be practically a must buy for people like me.

The second best dress up game on the market right now is the Soul Calibur series, but since the focus of the game is not on the pretty dolls and pretty clothes it is lacking in many ways.

MMO's are often decent for this, but the incredible amount of effort you have to go to to get cute clothes and accessories is staggering, and the games do not well support seeing your doll in the cute outfits you put together.

DOAX is one of very, very few games out there that just gives you a selection of barbies and a pile of cute things to dress them in, and it is the only one that has any real quality to it. It isn't good enough to buy for the dress up aspect alone, but if you are also into the porny aspects it is a quality purchase.