"Just go watch Porn!" (Probably NFSW, duh)

[Areloch]

If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

Even the game's own developers don't seem to put much stock in it as a volleyball game. And none of the games fans are spending time detailing its sporting mechanics. One person did spend some time defending its merits as a virtual doll-house (albeit a very evidently porny one), so it's got that going for it?

If that's the case, then they might be missing a trick marketing it only to "red blooded" young males. It's not like virtual doll houses have show to have good sales potential or anything when opened to a wider market. =|

Eh. I'm not saying it's a particularly GOOD game, but all I ever hear people talk about is it's basically softcore porn and nothing else.

I'm just saying that for all it's erotic elements, it's still a game with a breadth of mechanics and I can entirely believe people happen to find those mechanics enjoyable in addition to girls in beachwear.

Otherwise it's the same sort of logic that follows the obnoxious elitist posters you get on the internet in the vein of "How can you like Fallout 4? All the mechanics are half-baked and crap!". They obviously DO enjoy those half-baked mechanics, so who cares?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Eh. I'm not saying it's a particularly GOOD game, but all I ever hear people talk about is it's basically softcore porn and nothing else.

I'm just saying that for all it's erotic elements, it's still a game with a breadth of mechanics and I can entirely believe people happen to find those mechanics enjoyable in addition to girls in beachwear.

Otherwise it's the same sort of logic that follows the obnoxious elitist posters you get on the internet in the vein of "How can you like Fallout 4? All the mechanics are half-baked and crap!". They obviously DO enjoy those half-baked mechanics, so who cares?

Hey, people can like what they like. I've said as much already. People can dislike what they dislike, too. In the GOTY thread a few people hated Witcher 3. I think those people are nuts, but they're not WRONG to not like it. And people aren't bad or mean or evil to snark at games they don't like, particularly when those games are more at the "Big Rigs" end of the gaming quality spectrum, as I'd argue DOAX is. I find it confusing anyone would get defensive about it. If I was playing DOAX and someone said "LOL HOW R U LIKING YOUR PORN GAME, NERD" I'd say "Eh I'm liking it okay, I guess".

 

[Areloch]

Eh. I'm not saying it's a particularly GOOD game, but all I ever hear people talk about is it's basically softcore porn and nothing else.

I'm just saying that for all it's erotic elements, it's still a game with a breadth of mechanics and I can entirely believe people happen to find those mechanics enjoyable in addition to girls in beachwear.

Otherwise it's the same sort of logic that follows the obnoxious elitist posters you get on the internet in the vein of "How can you like Fallout 4? All the mechanics are half-baked and crap!". They obviously DO enjoy those half-baked mechanics, so who cares?

Hey, people can like what they like. I've said as much already. People can dislike what they dislike, too. In the GOTY thread a few people hated Witcher 3. I think those people are nuts, but they're not WRONG to not like it. And people aren't bad or mean or evil to snark at games they don't like, particularly when those games are more at the "Big Rigs" end of the gaming quality spectrum, as I'd argue DOAX is. I find it confusing anyone would get defensive about it. If I was playing DOAX and someone said "LOL HOW R U LIKING YOUR PORN GAME, NERD" I'd say "Eh I'm liking it okay, I guess".

Right. (also, just to clarify, wasn't attempting to imply you were taking the elitist 'how could enjoy thing i no like?!?!' angle or anything)

Well, as we've seen, some people get more defensive than others about....well, everything, really. I agree that one really wouldn't need more than a measured response as a retort like you say. Getting super defensive over it is probably just as much a problem as anyone pulling the "LOL NICE PORN GAEM" angle.

 

[1981]

"Why even watch this? Why not just watch real porn! Its free too!"

I don't think they mean it literally. It's just a stock response to someone who acts like it's somehow different. "No, you don't read it for the articles."

I feel its incredibly fake, and most of the time people aren't actually enjoying themselves.

My problem is that they're often enjoying themselves too much.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

Even the game's own developers don't seem to put much stock in it as a volleyball game. And none of the games fans are spending time detailing its sporting mechanics. One person did spend some time defending its merits as a virtual doll-house (albeit a very evidently porny one), so it's got that going for it?

If that's the case, then they might be missing a trick marketing it only to "red blooded" young males. It's not like virtual doll houses have show to have good sales potential or anything when opened to a wider market. =|

I know this is a tangent to the discussion at large, but the thing about what a person might call pure virtual doll games (games where the primary purpose of the game is to dress up dolls) is that they are almost non existent outside of hardcore porn and crappy flash games for 5 year old girls. DOAX is literally the only example I can think of (and it only qualifies because it is erotica, not hardcore porn), and I actively look for games with that aspect. And it isn't even marketed as such and most people don't think of it as such.

I think there is lots of potential in video games for niche genres like this that get overlooked because it hasn't been shown they are money earners because no one has ever tried it. I mean, you could put together a decent DOAX like doll game for pretty cheap, especially if you made it with preexisting characters like DOAX does and market it properly.

Also, I think it is a very strong reason of why "just go watch porn" is missing the point. I would bet real money the dress up aspect enhances the porny aspect greatly for many of the people who play it. All three aspects (dress up, the minigames, and the pervy stuff) compliment each other. As with many things, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

But since the game is largely marketed at young men who have been trained since they were 2 year olds that playing with dolls makes them a sissy they don't frame it like that. For many young men it is easier to admit to being into porn than into dolls (both to their peers and to themselves.)

 

[I can't enter my old name]

I also find it bizarre that it's the "critics of the game are sex-negative puritans" crowd who keep insisting "porn" is an inherently loathsome designation (I'm not including you in that, by the way). I find this to be a confusing assertion, particularly given the average age and gender of this forum. I'd anticipate an overwhelmingly "porn friendly" if not "porn enthusiastic" attitude. And yet it's being treated like a default insult. Possibly in part because such people are swift to find insults everywhere, but I digress.

I mean for heavens sake this is a culture and a generation that appends "porn" to random things to make them sound desirable. Earth porn. Food porn. Ear porn.

"Your game looks a bit porny."
"HOW DARE YOU."

Like I said, I'm confused.

While everyone in this thread is okay with porn, it's still a hush topic. I would assume for most people that they would not dare mention porn in front of their family, strangers, acquaintances, and so on. In a professional environment, I would say it would be extremely beneficial not to do so. Now I'm sure we have found friends and groups willing to discuss such things in vivid detail, but generally we don't bring it up. On the internet it is easier because we are discussing with anonymous entities and have less hesitation when talking about issues through text instead of face to face. We can all individually be as sex-positive as we want, but we still must adhere to society's standards.

Sexual activity is performed in private for humans. This includes watching porn and wanking. Society has deemed sexuality as taboo because of its nature. Sex sounds like it should be celebrated as the creation of life, but it always has associations with rape, incest, perversion, homosexuality, and other things people would be extremely disturbed to see. The taboo of sex and its association with digust is why we have words like, which is why we have words like "fuck", "****", "bugger", and "tosser".

Using porn to describe words can be humorous like you said "food porn". Stumbling onto these words is a humorous subversion of expectations. Repeated exposure makes the "porn" part be less dysphemistic if used with non-sexual, neutral words. It is just a semantic shift.

Now about the accusations of sex-negativity. I don't think anyone in this thread is sex-negative to a great degree as accused. However, since OP said this does not apply to DOAX3 in general but ecchi and the common argument "Eww fanservice. Why don't you just watch porn?", I will make this a defense of overt sexuality. They are making a value judgement of sexualized anime and games as porn. In this case we can assume porn means hardcore internet pornography. The problem is these things are generally related, but not substitutable. They feel as if sexuality in public display is not pleasant because of the taboo of sex, whilst sexuality in private is acceptable because it is out of mind (also they are wankers). It is implied that they mean anime and games with overt sexualization is a negative, because I would guess they don't want to deal with the embarrassment and public ire of playing, watching , or bearing any association with these things. If you disagree, let me know.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Try to be part of the group, then insult and be indifferent to the feelings of the people in it first, and yeah, you're going to make enemies, not friends.

I think the people who thought the were there first and need to be bowed to probably deserve to be taken down a peg anyways. That kind of personality generally needs a serious dose of reality.

When being 'friends' means bowing and scraping to undeserved self-importance, enemies is the preferable option.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Now about the accusations of sex-negativity. I don't think anyone in this thread is sex-negative to a great degree as accused. However, since OP said this does not apply to DOAX3 in general but ecchi and the common argument "Eww fanservice. Why don't you just watch porn?", I will make this a defense of overt sexuality. They are making a value judgement of sexualized anime and games as porn. In this case we can assume porn means hardcore internet pornography. The problem is these things are generally related, but not substitutable. They feel as if sexuality in public display is not pleasant because of the taboo of sex, whilst sexuality in private is acceptable because it is out of mind (also they are wankers). It is implied that they mean anime and games with overt sexualization is a negative, because I would guess they don't want to deal with the embarrassment and public ire of playing, watching , or bearing any association with these things. If you disagree, let me know.

I don't have an issue with games tackling or displaying sexuality, nor owning to the fact that I'm playing them. If I have an issue, it's that games with a "sexual side" always seem to be engaged in what, at a cursory look, appears to be juvenile pandering. That's all well and good for those who enjoy it, but I'm well past the years in which I enjoy being pandered to in such a fashion.

I just got done posting in a "best opening scene" thread in which my submission was the opening shot for Boogie Nights, one of my favorite films of all time. Boogie Nights is an unabashedly sexual and adult film, to a degree that could be considered far more salacious and challenging of society's mores than jiggly girls playing volleyball. Its examination of sex and pornography, however, goes beyond "Here are some tits, watch them bounce". I have no problems with adults being adults in games, and that includes sex and sexuality. I'd just like to see the industry do a little growing up, or at least have some more "mature" offerings available (for lack of a better word. Sophisticated? More high brow? I don't know how to phrase that, I'm sure you know what I mean).

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.[/quote


By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.



And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

EDIT: I forgot a few ones

"The Sun orbits around the Earth"
"The Earth is flat"
"The brain serves only to cool the body"

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

I don't have an issue with games tackling or displaying sexuality, nor owning to the fact that I'm playing them. If I have an issue, it's that games with a "sexual side" always seem to be engaged in what, at a cursory look, appears to be juvenile pandering. That's all well and good for those who enjoy it, but I'm well past the years in which I enjoy being pandered to in such a fashion.

I just got done posting in a "best opening scene" thread in which my submission was the opening shot for Boogie Nights, one of my favorite films of all time. Boogie Nights is an unabashedly sexual and adult film, to a degree that could be considered far more salacious and challenging of society's mores than jiggly girls playing volleyball. Its examination of sex and pornography, however, goes beyond "Here are some tits, watch them bounce". I have no problems with adults being adults in games, and that includes sex and sexuality. I'd just like to see the industry do a little growing up, or at least have some more "mature" offerings available (for lack of a better word. Sophisticated? More high brow? I don't know how to phrase that, I'm sure you know what I mean).

After doing some thinking, I realized there is also a social aspect to overt sexualization. For example, not a lot of people complain about "sexy time" in the Witcher 3, because they view it as mature and romantic or something. Some people wanted nudity built into many Elder Scrolls games instead of having to downloading a mod, because why should characters have underwear bolted onto them? Examples of unabashed fanservice are Kill la Kill and Monogatari, very popular and acclaimed anime with fanservice, where anime watchers, who may not watch a lot of anime to begin with, either don't care about fanservice or attribute deeper meanings to it, so it seems less icky. My theory is, it has to be socially acceptable kinds of sexualization or at least have a bandwagon effect, lest it become negative.

Things that are not well respected or well understood, including anime in general, visual novels, and DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball, tend to be what people dislike when it has overt sexualization. The gist is that these things is that they are perverted, because this kind of sexualization is not the norm and not something very common in our culture, other than teen comedy films which certainly are not respected. Dating fictional girls in visual novels also is incredibly weird, so it is not the norm. Yet I would say that some of these things are certainly more romantic and "mature" than other offerings in the porn and romcom department.

Onto AAA games that are popular but have sexualization, I believe RPG or Sci-fi fantasy babes are not acceptable in a sense, because they are derived from geek culture, which does not always mesh well with the general audience. It's true, we can have less of this and more realistic designs, and we should in my opinion. However, some people really don't like the idea of ogling 3D fictional women, because it's not the norm. Other than that, I don't really have much else to say.

 

[wulf3n]

but I'm well past the years in which I enjoy being pandered to in such a fashion.

I don't understand why people equate sexual pandering to age? Maybe others just have a relatively uptight social circle but If my experiences are anything to go by it's your +40s that seem to be the most into sexual pandering.

I'd just like to see the industry do a little growing up,

The existence of immaturity does not effect an industries maturity.

or at least have some more "mature" offerings available (for lack of a better word. Sophisticated? More high brow? I don't know how to phrase that, I'm sure you know what I mean).

You get out what you put in. I find there's plenty of complex and sophisticated issues explored in video games, most people just aren't willing to look too deep into video games. Example: Everyone praised SpecOps: The line for it's introspective look at the players actions in video games, but MGS1 already did that 14 years earlier. The only difference between them is one paints itself as gritty and mature and the other camp.

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.


It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't understand why people equate sexual pandering to age? Maybe others just have a relatively uptight social circle but If my experiences are anything to go by it's your +40s that seem to be the most into sexual pandering.

I dunno dude, it's just my personal experience. I would've been keener on it when I was a teen.

The existence of immaturity does not effect an industries maturity.

No, but there's almost a complete void of "mature" offerings in this particular realm, and a great panoply of jiggly titty-fests.

You get out what you put in. I find there's plenty of complex and sophisticated issues explored in video games, most people just aren't willing to look too deep into video games.

Of course there are. And I'd be the first to argue this. And I'd also attribute a lot of that TO the flack the industry has taken over the last decade for infantile storytelling and characterization. That shit has improved by leaps and bounds, although we've still a ways to go.

But sexually? Games still do not handle "sex" well. At all. The pinnacle of achievement thus far is awkwardly animated sex sequences that manage to be mildly embarrassing instead of completely off-putting. I recognize there are uncanny valley issues at work, but even on the simple front of romantic relationships the offerings have been pretty thin on the ground. So people pointing to DOAX and saying "If you don't like this you don't want sex in games you puritan!" is a bit exhausting. I'd love to see some sex in games, but it'd be nice to have more in the buffet than the one pot of grape jello.

 

[JamesStone]

You get out what you put in. I find there's plenty of complex and sophisticated issues explored in video games, most people just aren't willing to look too deep into video games. Example: Everyone praised SpecOps: The line for it's introspective look at the players actions in video games, but MGS1 already did that 14 years earlier. The only difference between them is one paints itself as gritty and mature and the other camp.

But people also praise MGS1. Praising one doesn't mean taking praise away from the other. It's a new look at the same topic done just as well. What's the problem with that?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Dismissiveness is a sign that you don't have an answer anymore.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Actually the God statement is interesting, it's what's called an unfalsifiable statement. These are similar but different from opinions. It is a positive statement that could in theory be proven right or wrong, but there's no way to actually do so. But it is not an opinion.

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.

How so? Appending "I believe" to a statement doesn't magically make it an opinion.

It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

You said

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG.

Now, I gave (unlike you) an actual opinion that was supported by an (incorrect) actual factual statement. If this is not the method to determine whether an opinion is right or wrong, then what is?

 

[wulf3n]

I dunno dude, it's just my personal experience. I would've been keener on it when I was a teen.

Maybe it's just a difference in culture/sub-culture. I live in a fairly boganish part of Australia so...

No, but there's almost a complete void of "mature" offerings in this particular realm, and a great panoply of jiggly titty-fests.

Maybe we're thinking of different things when we talk about maturity. I think of it as mainly complex themes, and I haven't found it too difficult to find games that explore them.

Of course there are. And I'd be the first to argue this. And I'd also attribute a lot of that TO the flack the industry has taken over the last decade for infantile storytelling and characterization. That shit has improved by leaps and bounds, although we've still a ways to go.

I've found that even games with superficially infantile storytelling and characterization can actually be quite deep, if you're willing to put in the time. Not all of course, but some.

But sexually? Games still do not handle "sex" well. At all. The pinnacle of achievement thus far is awkwardly animated sex sequences that manage to be mildly embarrassing instead of completely off-putting. I recognize there are uncanny valley issues at work, but even on the simple front of romantic relationships the offerings have been pretty thin on the ground. So people pointing to DOAX and saying "If you don't like this you don't want sex in games you puritan!" is a bit exhausting. I'd love to see some sex in games, but it'd be nice to have more in the buffet than the one pot of grape jello.

I'd argue that's a technical limitation more so than anything else. Not just with the uncanny valley thing, but also exploring relationships. With games where a relationship is a sub-plot (non-interactive) there's not much time to dedicate it without taking away from the game aspect. With games where a relationship is an integral part (re: bioware) the breadth of player choice, writing and voice acting to create an in-depth experience is too much.

Fan-Service on the other hand is easy.

But people also praise MGS1. Praising one doesn't mean taking praise away from the other. It's a new look at the same topic done just as well. What's the problem with that?

I wasn't so much saying that the praise for spec ops negates the praise for MGS1 just that even though they explore similar themes, both were praised for different reasons. When one thinks mature and complex game stories they don't necessarily think Metal Gear Solid.

I think what I'm getting at is that the existence of immaturity in a game shouldn't detract from the mature elements.