"Just go watch Porn!" (Probably NFSW, duh)

[BloatedGuppy]

In fairness, the same goes to the other side.

The "other side" eh? Are we delineated into two armed camps then?

Honestly, what I'm taking away from the DOAX3 debacle is that the efforts to make gaming more inclusive have had the opposite effect, making them even more angry, protective, and hostile to outsiders, and right now, created a market for products that piss off "SJWs".

Gee I dunno Redd. I've been gaming since about 1980, and I'm white, straight, and I have a penis, and none of this made me "angry, protective and hostile". Watching the self-designated gate-keepers of the hobby throw diaper baby tantrums every single time someone criticizes some element of the hobby for being socially regressive makes me annoyed and embarrassed, but that's about as far as it goes.

Then again, I've been saying that for a couple of years now. Try to be part of the group, then insult and be indifferent to the feelings of the people in it first, and yeah, you're going to make enemies, not friends.

That's funny, because I insulted gamers for decades, and no one took any issue with it. I also received insults on the regular while gaming online, something I am to understand is part and parcel of the hobby. I also see insults being hurled around here, entirely from one "side", directed at another "side" that for all intents and purposes seems to be continually absent from these discussions. Indeed, the only time I ever see that "side" in action is when someone posts shit they data-mined from the internet, and 90% of the time it turns out to be a ridiculously obvious Poe.

So in light of this, why were "insults" some kind of Rubicon that demanded a hobby of media consumption be turned into the front line of a culture war? Are "gamers" as you are defining them just exceptionally thin skinned, and swift to take offense? That seems contrary to how they present themselves. If someone says "Fuk u die ******" every three seconds during an online match, I'm to understand it's part of the charm of the hobby, but if someone says "this ambulatory pair of tits is a good example of objectification in the medium" it's nuclear war time?

Don't worry, I'm not under the impression I'm convincing you of anything. I'm well aware of where "battle lines" have been drawn, and if I've learned anything it's that those who have chosen to encamp are not particularly interested in budging. But as long as we're "sharing theories" I'm sure you'll be comfortable with me sharing mine. How was it someone put it a few days ago...that gaming was "under attack" because some people "got their fee fees hurt". I consistently see one group of people talking very loudly and very intently about how hurt their "fee fees" are when it comes to these subjects. Pro tip: it's not sinister progressives from the land of Tumblr.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

A Greek sculpture or a Botticelli painting might be seen as erotic by some, but placing them next to Debbie Does Dallas or some piece of camcorder-recorded anything-goes amateur gonzo video does not encourage viewers to contemplate them as anything else.

A fair point, and I'm not averse to more precision in language (indeed I'm a proponent for it). I don't have an issue with delineations like "erotica" or "ecchi" (or however it's spelled, I'm too lazy to look), or any other distinctions. By the same token, I'm also not averse to people colloquially applying "pornography" to material that was very evidently developed with that at least partly in mind. I've seen some cranking in the thread about people fishing out dictionary definitions, but that's part of the problem with these discussions, is you've got thirty-two people working with thirty-two definitions of a word. It does not lead to clarity of understanding. OP opens the thread incensed because people called his titty game porn, without any real understanding of what those individuals might have been thinking of when they applied that label.

I also find it bizarre that it's the "critics of the game are sex-negative puritans" crowd who keep insisting "porn" is an inherently loathsome designation (I'm not including you in that, by the way). I find this to be a confusing assertion, particularly given the average age and gender of this forum. I'd anticipate an overwhelmingly "porn friendly" if not "porn enthusiastic" attitude. And yet it's being treated like a default insult. Possibly in part because such people are swift to find insults everywhere, but I digress.

I mean for heavens sake this is a culture and a generation that appends "porn" to random things to make them sound desirable. Earth porn. Food porn. Ear porn.

"Your game looks a bit porny."
"HOW DARE YOU."

Like I said, I'm confused.

 

[Something Amyss]

This is an attitude I can understand more than anything. I personally have no shame in admitting that I sometimes enjoy the over-the-top stylized basically-fap-material. I've no issue with it being in games myself, and only have one lingering request that developers stop trying to rationalize it and call a spade a spade, or in this case call it fanservice/fap material, so long as its honest. *shrug*

I dunno what that adds to the discussion, but I just had to point out that I am quite happy that there are more people being rational about the idea of it not being a problem other than dishonest intentions/rationalizations.

Hell, I write erotica. I like looking at attractive women (and men, and sometimes aliens). I watch porn. I also generally don't give a crap what other people get off on. That doesn't mean I'm not going to think it's porn. Hell, I posed the intro a couple pages back, it's more pornographic than a lot of softcore porn in my opinion. For his, I am apparently a puritanical sex-negative SJW who's out to censor all sex.

In fact, that's what I would add to this discussion that I didn't think of last night: sex and sexuality. I was replying to someone who claimed that people try and lump all sex and sexuality into the porn category. That's true, but only from a very limited perspective.

We do tend to lump together sex and sexuality in the sense of things like Quiet or DOA Xtreme, because they're basically there as fap material, and it seems everyone knows it. Even the OP has said he doesn't like porn with real girls because of reasons I won't unpack, and parallels looking at this stuff to porn as he complains he's being told to just watch porn. But I mean, I've been having conversations about sex and sexuality on this site for something like 8 years. And a lot of the people who suddenly think I'm a prude or a puritan were the folks who were all "STFU SJWs" not too long ago. Outside of pure titillation, we don't actually get much discourse on sex and sexuality, because "STFU SJWs." Sex happens in a lot of games without this kind of fanfare (which I will touch on in a moment), and sexuality?

Well, the only type of sexuality that seems to count is the kind where I want to bone this hot polygonal chick. But bring up any other element of sexuality? It can't be talked about without at the very least a shouting match, and how quickly do the cries of "puritan" become something else.

And yeah, the fanfare didn't even come from the "SJWs" here. People got outraged when they found out a game that already wasn't coming to the West still wasn't coming to the West. The only difference? They couldn't have it before, but now they can't have it "because SJWs." And suddenly, this is a big deal and everyone should care. People who will demand someone be fired for speaking their opinion in an editorial piece are suddenly very, very against censorship.

One group on the internet is offended and displaying its outrage, and it's not the SJWs. The SJWs appear to be the ones who simply don't get why it's such a big deal. The "dude, just watch porn" thing. It seems like most people simply don't care if a titty game comes stateside. And the big controversy here is that we would dare call it one.

Which brings me to....

It's nobody's business what gets you off.

I would point out that this is literally only an issue because people are talking about it in the first place. This isn't "whatever happens in your own bedroom/living room/dungeon," it's people who have been outraged that they can't have their game (without importing it, because it's not being outlawed or anything). They have made this a fairly "public" discussion and very much made it relevant. OP has even made multiple threads specifically discussing what "gets him off," and not just on this subject.

People are going to give their opinions. Especially on a board like this, which mandates discussion value as part of its content rules.

Ostensibly, it's nobody's business if I don't like bacon. But if I start to post about my dislike of bacon and people post in response, it would be a bti absurd for me to say "it's none of your business what I like!"

I would obviously draw the line at someone being called names specifically for not liking bacon, or the usual line of stuff. But that's not what's happening, either.

"Ghettoized" in its original sense does not imply a negative, only a segregation. The occupants of a ghetto may be worse off for being so segregated- and I'd argue that the broad spectrum of the erotic is also made poorer if it's restricted to only what exists for erotic purposes, and almost exclusively those purposes- but that doesn't mean the occupants were inherently bad for being put there. A Greek sculpture or a Botticelli painting might be seen as erotic by some, but placing them next to Debbie Does Dallas or some piece of camcorder-recorded anything-goes amateur gonzo video does not encourage viewers to contemplate them as anything else.

And if we were talking about something where the sex was incidental, I'd agree. But this shit is marketed specifically in a way to emphasise it as a focus. Hell, it's not even the Xtreme line.

Spoiler: Erring on the SNFW side

Anything might get someone off (and probably does), but not everything is marketed to that end. If Michaelangelo's David had been mass marketed as "David lets it ALL HANG OUT!!!!!!" we might have slightly different conversations about it.

EDIT: and on the flip side, if someone said "I enjoy Debbie Does Dallas for the nuanced characters and deep cinematography...why else would I watch it?" I doubt anyone would believe them.

 

[Areloch]

I also find it bizarre that it's the "critics of the game are sex-negative puritans" crowd who keep insisting "porn" is an inherently loathsome designation (I'm not including you in that, by the way). I find this to be a confusing assertion, particularly given the average age and gender of this forum. I'd anticipate an overwhelmingly "porn friendly" if not "porn enthusiastic" attitude. And yet it's being treated like a default insult. Possibly in part because such people are swift to find insults everywhere, but I digress.

I mean for heavens sake this is a culture and a generation that appends "porn" to random things to make them sound desirable. Earth porn. Food porn. Ear porn.

"Your game looks a bit porny."
"HOW DARE YOU."

Like I said, I'm confused.

I dunno about all the rest of the discussion happening in this thread, but the "Just go watch porn" statement, someone saying more or less "You shouldn't enjoy that piece of media like that because it's a little too close to porn but not fully porn' does come across as weirdly...I dunno, "sex negative" probably isn't it, but it seems like a demand to keep "sexy" and "not sexy" separate.

It's just a weird phrase all around, really.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I dunno about all the rest of the discussion happening in this thread, but the "Just go watch porn" statement, someone saying more or less "You shouldn't enjoy that piece of media like that because it's a little too close to porn but not fully porn' does come across as weirdly...I dunno, "sex negative" probably isn't it, but it seems like a demand to keep "sexy" and "not sexy" separate.

It's just a weird phrase all around, really.

I think it's just questioning the value of the game.

When I was quite young there was a game lurking on the PC, "Strip Poker". You could play Poker and get hilariously pixelated nudie girls if you won enough. Terribly erotic and enticing for me, I was probably 13 at the time. And we didn't even HAVE the goddam internet, it didn't exist yet.

If someone offered me that same game today, I'd probably think "Why wouldn't I just go look at porn?". And I'm guessing the people who don't find anime girls jiggling around while playing volleyball enticing are thinking the same thing. It's not really a debate that anyone is in it for the fucking volleyball.

And people looking at an aspect of a game and seeing no value in it, and subsequently shit talking said game, is not a new phenomenon. We do it all the time. It usually doesn't merit a five page thread. I'm not sure why it's surprising, alarming, or insulting that someone could look at DOAX and think "Meh, why not just watch porn?".

 

[Something Amyss]

It usually doesn't merit a five page thread.

Or the other several that were made here alone that went multiple pages. I would think this would validate the confusion surrounding this game.

 

[Areloch]

I dunno about all the rest of the discussion happening in this thread, but the "Just go watch porn" statement, someone saying more or less "You shouldn't enjoy that piece of media like that because it's a little too close to porn but not fully porn' does come across as weirdly...I dunno, "sex negative" probably isn't it, but it seems like a demand to keep "sexy" and "not sexy" separate.

It's just a weird phrase all around, really.

I think it's just questioning the value of the game.

When I was quite young there was a game lurking on the PC, "Strip Poker". You could play Poker and get hilariously pixelated nudie girls if you won enough. Terribly erotic and enticing for me, I was probably 13 at the time. And we didn't even HAVE the goddam internet, it didn't exist yet.

If someone offered me that same game today, I'd probably think "Why wouldn't I just go look at porn?". And I'm guessing the people who don't find anime girls jiggling around while playing volleyball enticing are thinking the same thing. It's not really a debate that anyone is in it for the fucking volleyball.

And people looking at an aspect of a game and seeing no value in it, and subsequently shit talking said game, is not a new phenomenon. We do it all the time. It usually doesn't merit a five page thread. I'm not sure why it's surprising, alarming, or insulting that someone could look at DOAX and think "Meh, why not just watch porn?".

I suppose that's true. That said, I haven't played it, but of what I've heard from others playing it, it's actually got several interesting gameplay mechanics and minigames than just simply being about "dem tittays". I mean, for your Strip Poker game example, if someone pulled the "Why not just watch porn", you may be slightly more inclined to go "well, sure, but..." if it happened to actually have a really good poker game behind the veneer of erotica, right?

I mean, I know if someone pulled the "Why not go watch porn" on something like Bayonetta, I'd definitely counterpoint about how the gameplay is actually really fun and the sexy poses are just an amusing varnish on top. If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

I can't say it's *surprising* that people go "I don't see why this is a thing", because lord knows most people seem to adopt the "stop liking what I don't like" angle, but it is disappointing.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

Even the game's own developers don't seem to put much stock in it as a volleyball game. And none of the games fans are spending time detailing its sporting mechanics. One person did spend some time defending its merits as a virtual doll-house (albeit a very evidently porny one), so it's got that going for it?

If that's the case, then they might be missing a trick marketing it only to "red blooded" young males. It's not like virtual doll houses have show to have good sales potential or anything when opened to a wider market. =|

 

[Areloch]

If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

Even the game's own developers don't seem to put much stock in it as a volleyball game. And none of the games fans are spending time detailing its sporting mechanics. One person did spend some time defending its merits as a virtual doll-house (albeit a very evidently porny one), so it's got that going for it?

If that's the case, then they might be missing a trick marketing it only to "red blooded" young males. It's not like virtual doll houses have show to have good sales potential or anything when opened to a wider market. =|

Eh. I'm not saying it's a particularly GOOD game, but all I ever hear people talk about is it's basically softcore porn and nothing else.

I'm just saying that for all it's erotic elements, it's still a game with a breadth of mechanics and I can entirely believe people happen to find those mechanics enjoyable in addition to girls in beachwear.

Otherwise it's the same sort of logic that follows the obnoxious elitist posters you get on the internet in the vein of "How can you like Fallout 4? All the mechanics are half-baked and crap!". They obviously DO enjoy those half-baked mechanics, so who cares?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Eh. I'm not saying it's a particularly GOOD game, but all I ever hear people talk about is it's basically softcore porn and nothing else.

I'm just saying that for all it's erotic elements, it's still a game with a breadth of mechanics and I can entirely believe people happen to find those mechanics enjoyable in addition to girls in beachwear.

Otherwise it's the same sort of logic that follows the obnoxious elitist posters you get on the internet in the vein of "How can you like Fallout 4? All the mechanics are half-baked and crap!". They obviously DO enjoy those half-baked mechanics, so who cares?

Hey, people can like what they like. I've said as much already. People can dislike what they dislike, too. In the GOTY thread a few people hated Witcher 3. I think those people are nuts, but they're not WRONG to not like it. And people aren't bad or mean or evil to snark at games they don't like, particularly when those games are more at the "Big Rigs" end of the gaming quality spectrum, as I'd argue DOAX is. I find it confusing anyone would get defensive about it. If I was playing DOAX and someone said "LOL HOW R U LIKING YOUR PORN GAME, NERD" I'd say "Eh I'm liking it okay, I guess".

 

[Areloch]

Eh. I'm not saying it's a particularly GOOD game, but all I ever hear people talk about is it's basically softcore porn and nothing else.

I'm just saying that for all it's erotic elements, it's still a game with a breadth of mechanics and I can entirely believe people happen to find those mechanics enjoyable in addition to girls in beachwear.

Otherwise it's the same sort of logic that follows the obnoxious elitist posters you get on the internet in the vein of "How can you like Fallout 4? All the mechanics are half-baked and crap!". They obviously DO enjoy those half-baked mechanics, so who cares?

Hey, people can like what they like. I've said as much already. People can dislike what they dislike, too. In the GOTY thread a few people hated Witcher 3. I think those people are nuts, but they're not WRONG to not like it. And people aren't bad or mean or evil to snark at games they don't like, particularly when those games are more at the "Big Rigs" end of the gaming quality spectrum, as I'd argue DOAX is. I find it confusing anyone would get defensive about it. If I was playing DOAX and someone said "LOL HOW R U LIKING YOUR PORN GAME, NERD" I'd say "Eh I'm liking it okay, I guess".

Right. (also, just to clarify, wasn't attempting to imply you were taking the elitist 'how could enjoy thing i no like?!?!' angle or anything)

Well, as we've seen, some people get more defensive than others about....well, everything, really. I agree that one really wouldn't need more than a measured response as a retort like you say. Getting super defensive over it is probably just as much a problem as anyone pulling the "LOL NICE PORN GAEM" angle.

 

[1981]

"Why even watch this? Why not just watch real porn! Its free too!"

I don't think they mean it literally. It's just a stock response to someone who acts like it's somehow different. "No, you don't read it for the articles."

I feel its incredibly fake, and most of the time people aren't actually enjoying themselves.

My problem is that they're often enjoying themselves too much.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

Even the game's own developers don't seem to put much stock in it as a volleyball game. And none of the games fans are spending time detailing its sporting mechanics. One person did spend some time defending its merits as a virtual doll-house (albeit a very evidently porny one), so it's got that going for it?

If that's the case, then they might be missing a trick marketing it only to "red blooded" young males. It's not like virtual doll houses have show to have good sales potential or anything when opened to a wider market. =|

I know this is a tangent to the discussion at large, but the thing about what a person might call pure virtual doll games (games where the primary purpose of the game is to dress up dolls) is that they are almost non existent outside of hardcore porn and crappy flash games for 5 year old girls. DOAX is literally the only example I can think of (and it only qualifies because it is erotica, not hardcore porn), and I actively look for games with that aspect. And it isn't even marketed as such and most people don't think of it as such.

I think there is lots of potential in video games for niche genres like this that get overlooked because it hasn't been shown they are money earners because no one has ever tried it. I mean, you could put together a decent DOAX like doll game for pretty cheap, especially if you made it with preexisting characters like DOAX does and market it properly.

Also, I think it is a very strong reason of why "just go watch porn" is missing the point. I would bet real money the dress up aspect enhances the porny aspect greatly for many of the people who play it. All three aspects (dress up, the minigames, and the pervy stuff) compliment each other. As with many things, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

But since the game is largely marketed at young men who have been trained since they were 2 year olds that playing with dolls makes them a sissy they don't frame it like that. For many young men it is easier to admit to being into porn than into dolls (both to their peers and to themselves.)

 

[I can't enter my old name]

I also find it bizarre that it's the "critics of the game are sex-negative puritans" crowd who keep insisting "porn" is an inherently loathsome designation (I'm not including you in that, by the way). I find this to be a confusing assertion, particularly given the average age and gender of this forum. I'd anticipate an overwhelmingly "porn friendly" if not "porn enthusiastic" attitude. And yet it's being treated like a default insult. Possibly in part because such people are swift to find insults everywhere, but I digress.

I mean for heavens sake this is a culture and a generation that appends "porn" to random things to make them sound desirable. Earth porn. Food porn. Ear porn.

"Your game looks a bit porny."
"HOW DARE YOU."

Like I said, I'm confused.

While everyone in this thread is okay with porn, it's still a hush topic. I would assume for most people that they would not dare mention porn in front of their family, strangers, acquaintances, and so on. In a professional environment, I would say it would be extremely beneficial not to do so. Now I'm sure we have found friends and groups willing to discuss such things in vivid detail, but generally we don't bring it up. On the internet it is easier because we are discussing with anonymous entities and have less hesitation when talking about issues through text instead of face to face. We can all individually be as sex-positive as we want, but we still must adhere to society's standards.

Sexual activity is performed in private for humans. This includes watching porn and wanking. Society has deemed sexuality as taboo because of its nature. Sex sounds like it should be celebrated as the creation of life, but it always has associations with rape, incest, perversion, homosexuality, and other things people would be extremely disturbed to see. The taboo of sex and its association with digust is why we have words like, which is why we have words like "fuck", "****", "bugger", and "tosser".

Using porn to describe words can be humorous like you said "food porn". Stumbling onto these words is a humorous subversion of expectations. Repeated exposure makes the "porn" part be less dysphemistic if used with non-sexual, neutral words. It is just a semantic shift.

Now about the accusations of sex-negativity. I don't think anyone in this thread is sex-negative to a great degree as accused. However, since OP said this does not apply to DOAX3 in general but ecchi and the common argument "Eww fanservice. Why don't you just watch porn?", I will make this a defense of overt sexuality. They are making a value judgement of sexualized anime and games as porn. In this case we can assume porn means hardcore internet pornography. The problem is these things are generally related, but not substitutable. They feel as if sexuality in public display is not pleasant because of the taboo of sex, whilst sexuality in private is acceptable because it is out of mind (also they are wankers). It is implied that they mean anime and games with overt sexualization is a negative, because I would guess they don't want to deal with the embarrassment and public ire of playing, watching , or bearing any association with these things. If you disagree, let me know.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Try to be part of the group, then insult and be indifferent to the feelings of the people in it first, and yeah, you're going to make enemies, not friends.

I think the people who thought the were there first and need to be bowed to probably deserve to be taken down a peg anyways. That kind of personality generally needs a serious dose of reality.

When being 'friends' means bowing and scraping to undeserved self-importance, enemies is the preferable option.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Now about the accusations of sex-negativity. I don't think anyone in this thread is sex-negative to a great degree as accused. However, since OP said this does not apply to DOAX3 in general but ecchi and the common argument "Eww fanservice. Why don't you just watch porn?", I will make this a defense of overt sexuality. They are making a value judgement of sexualized anime and games as porn. In this case we can assume porn means hardcore internet pornography. The problem is these things are generally related, but not substitutable. They feel as if sexuality in public display is not pleasant because of the taboo of sex, whilst sexuality in private is acceptable because it is out of mind (also they are wankers). It is implied that they mean anime and games with overt sexualization is a negative, because I would guess they don't want to deal with the embarrassment and public ire of playing, watching , or bearing any association with these things. If you disagree, let me know.

I don't have an issue with games tackling or displaying sexuality, nor owning to the fact that I'm playing them. If I have an issue, it's that games with a "sexual side" always seem to be engaged in what, at a cursory look, appears to be juvenile pandering. That's all well and good for those who enjoy it, but I'm well past the years in which I enjoy being pandered to in such a fashion.

I just got done posting in a "best opening scene" thread in which my submission was the opening shot for Boogie Nights, one of my favorite films of all time. Boogie Nights is an unabashedly sexual and adult film, to a degree that could be considered far more salacious and challenging of society's mores than jiggly girls playing volleyball. Its examination of sex and pornography, however, goes beyond "Here are some tits, watch them bounce". I have no problems with adults being adults in games, and that includes sex and sexuality. I'd just like to see the industry do a little growing up, or at least have some more "mature" offerings available (for lack of a better word. Sophisticated? More high brow? I don't know how to phrase that, I'm sure you know what I mean).

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.[/quote


By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.



And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

EDIT: I forgot a few ones

"The Sun orbits around the Earth"
"The Earth is flat"
"The brain serves only to cool the body"

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.