"Just go watch Porn!" (Probably NFSW, duh)

[BloatedGuppy]

With games where a relationship is an integral part (re: bioware) the breadth of player choice, writing and voice acting to create an in-depth experience is too much.

Fan-Service on the other hand is easy.

Well I think that goes to the heart of it, really. I'm not anti-sex, I'm just BORED of fan service. It's not servicing me any more, and it tends to be all that's on offer. I want complex, "made for adults" stories and themes in my games (not all of them, but a lot of them), and that can and probably should include sexuality. And it can be quite jarring to be experiencing a rich, well crafted story on all fronts, and then BOOM...lazy fan service out of left field.

I think we're slowly getting to the point where we're simulating more genuine-feeling human interactions in games, but there still some hurdles to clear.

 

[JamesStone]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Dismissiveness is a sign that you don't have an answer anymore.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Actually the God statement is interesting, it's what's called an unfalsifiable statement. These are similar but different from opinions. It is a positive statement that could in theory be proven right or wrong, but there's no way to actually do so. But it is not an opinion.

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.

How so? Appending "I believe" to a statement doesn't magically make it an opinion.

It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

You said

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG.

Now, I gave (unlike you) an actual opinion that was supported by an (incorrect) actual factual statement. If this is not the method to determine whether an opinion is right or wrong, then what is?

Yes, indeed, dismissal is a sign that you win and nothing else, and it means your arguments are so great I have nothing to contradict them with. Yuppy. Take home the gold medal, sport, you made it.

You keep throwing away the same incorrect statements and subvert anything anyone tries to tell you to fit your own pretty strawman that you can argue with. Fine, go argue with the strawman, go argue with the dictionary, go argue with whomever. I'm tired of this pointless drivel, and I'm tired of your senseless and pointless arguments.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

You don't have popular opinion, the dictionary doesn't back you up as much as you think it does, and logic isn't on your side.

I'm just saying that bringing up GG is a very easy way to make the discussion about GG, as evidenced by the fact that you just turned the rest of your post into a post about GG.

In any case, holding an opinion does not make you right or wrong, correct. It does not make you a banana either. It merely means you hold an opinion.

But here, since we're on books, let's look up opinion in the thesaurus. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Synonyms: Assassment, assumption, feeling, judgment, mind, view
Antonyms: FACT, REALITY, PROOF

It almost sounds like opinions are separate from the proof/disproof paradigm.

By the way, nice job handpicking the synonyms that agree with your accessment. You left out, however: Conjecture, suspision, theorem, sentiment, speculation, supposition, thesis, imagining, assessment, assumption, IE, things that can be right or wrong.

It's almost as if an opinion HAS no inherit value by itself, but it can be right or wrong based on the things that constitute it.

So the facts you base your opinion on can be right or wrong? Good thing that's what I've been arguing. But the opinion itself isn't right or wrong.

And the reason you aren't going to address the GG example is the same reason you handpicked the synonims that agree with your hypothesis: because you're a demagoge that tries to make up new meanings for pre-existing words in order to fortify your own argument.

I DID actually address the original GG example and then said stay away from GG because we don't need to bring that particular heated discussion into this debate. It's already tangential enough to the thread without a bunch of bickering over yet another debate.

Here's a few other examples you completely failed to address because they'd force you to admit that, at the very least, your OPINION has a lot of holes in it:

"All [insert racial slang here] deserve nothing but torture and summary execution"
"Gamergate is nothing but a bunch of powerless wannabe bullies who exist to harrass women"
"Women are only fit to be housewifes or prostitutes"
"Homossexuals should be chemically castrated"

Feel free to claim these aren't wrong because they're opinions.

Only 2 of those were brought up before. The answer is the same as I gave a long ass time ago; as opinions they are not wrong, merely unpopular. And dangerous if important enough people hold them.

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG. How is this a different concept to grasp? Nowhere in the dictionary does it say ANYTHING about an opinion being by definition impossible to attribute a True/False value.


Here's a demonstration:

"I believe the Earth is flat"

By analysing the data available to us since Phoenician's time, we can conclude that the Earth is in fact spherical/elipsed. As such, the opinion is wrong.


What IS INDEED TRUE is that most opinions are based around more than a singular fact, and analysing the various conjectures and facts that allow a person to create an opinion about a complex topic is a very hard task, which makes it a fool's erand to immediately dismiss the opinion as wrong, or immediately laund it as right. It is, however, possible to attribute truthfulness or its abscence to any opinion, as long as the data behind it can be analyzed.


Another demonstration:

"I believe God exists" - Analyzing the data behind this opinion allows one to reach little conclusion about the veracity of the facts supporting it, so we cannot attribute an inherit right/wrong value.

"Gamergate are nothing but thugs" - By mere observation one can conclude this statement is wrong, and so are the facts that support it. As such, the OPINION is wrong.

Oh, I get how this works.

"I think we should have stricter gun control because nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway."

I shall start using this argument against people who want greater gun control since the statement "nobody knows how to take care of a gun anyway" is factually wrong which makes the opinion "I think we should have stricter gun control" wrong as well.

Does this sound right?

Oh, and "I believe the Earth is flat" is not an opinion. It's a (wrong) factual statement nestled in a sentence to make it sound like an opinion.

Dismissiveness is a sign that you don't have an answer anymore.

Yeah yeah, we reached the point where you don't even care about what I wrote (if you had the ever-so-slight bother of actually reading the things you are replying, you'd notice the "I believe God exists" argument, which is in the same class as the example you provided as some kind of misguided counterargument that rests almost entirely on strawmanning my own).

Actually the God statement is interesting, it's what's called an unfalsifiable statement. These are similar but different from opinions. It is a positive statement that could in theory be proven right or wrong, but there's no way to actually do so. But it is not an opinion.

Also, by the synonim of the link you oh-so-helpfully provided, you see that "I believe the Earth is flat" falls within the category of "opinion", but of course that doesn't fit within your fairy-land version of reality, so you exclude it. Real classy.

How so? Appending "I believe" to a statement doesn't magically make it an opinion.

It also says a lot about your maturity to either think that your example in any way serves as a counterargument for mine OR that such a complex statement (again, as I described in my post above that you disrespectfully ignored in is near-integrity) could be simplified by analyzing and strawmanning one part of the argument. You also only addressed half of the sentence and even that was half-assed, so I am confused as to what you think that would prove.

You said

If the facts that support an opinion are wrong, than the OPINION IS WRONG.

Now, I gave (unlike you) an actual opinion that was supported by an (incorrect) actual factual statement. If this is not the method to determine whether an opinion is right or wrong, then what is?

Yes, indeed, dismissal is a sign that you win and nothing else, and it means your arguments are so great I have nothing to contradict them with. Yuppy. Take home the gold medal, sport, you made it.

You keep throwing away the same incorrect statements and subvert anything anyone tries to tell you to fit your own pretty strawman that you can argue with. Fine, go argue with the strawman, go argue with the dictionary, go argue with whomever. I'm tired of this pointless drivel, and I'm tired of your senseless and pointless arguments.

Well I'll be here if you want to answer questions instead of throwing your hands up when someone challenges you on the things you said.

 

[Batou667]

I disagree with the description of DOAX as "basically porn". Not because I'm some reactionary who can't handle criticism, but because it's a poor description if not outright untrue. It's really not very erotic - or at least the original wasn't, and that's the only game in the spin-off series I played. There's no sex. There's no nudity - a lot of skin on display, but no nudity, and for all that the girls are more like airbrushed mannequins than living, breathing, sexual beings. It's visually aesthetically pleasing but actually quite difficult to find genuinely titillating - look, I was a teenager, I was lonely, trust me, I tried. I quickly gave up attempting to use DOAX as spank material - firstly it's redundant when you consider the complete ease with which you can access real porn, and secondly, if you take more than a cursory glance it becomes evident that it's not the intention of the game anyway.

I also disagree with the appraisal of DOAX being a "lads" game. It's not. FIFA is a lad's game. CoD is. DOAX is the type of game you strenuously deny owning in front of your mates.

So what's the appeal? It's character-driven, fanservice, and (although I only skimmed this thread) I think somebody described it as a virtual dollhouse and I think that's quite fitting. It's a dress-up game for males. It's The Sims for males. There's something quite pleasant about putting together a nicely coordinated outfit for your character, indeed the gameplay mostly revolves around the dress-up and outfit unlocking metagame. Playing volleyball is almost a mini-game or grinding in comparison. And personally, that's the first time I'd encountered a game that rewarded me for doing that; choosing a character, building her wardrobe, developing her relationship with other characters, and so on.

So, that's why the sentiment of "hurr hurr, it's porn" irks me. It's not incorrect, it's an oversimplification; and arguably that's worse.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I think a big reason why so many people want ecchi/titillating/borderline porn games comes down to one single word; Control.

Control is what makes video games so much more engrossing then film or pictures and it's what fuels the conservatives that try to ban games based or violence or sex, because you are the one in control of what happens.

You can't control the camera in porno vids, you can't make the actors get into exact positions and read your mind. Select your girl off the rack and pan around and get those titties giggling, ass bobbing, wearing THAT bikini and talking like Gilbert Gottfreid! Real people have their own tastes and more importantly judgments, but a bunch of polygons wont judge me, is the underlying thought process I'd imagine, because society shames people for their sexual tastes.

What's more important though is why Japan's anime porn industry is mostly made up of underaged sisters being raped, or a mix of those three. Am I weird with my love of legal lesbians with big gozongas having consensual fun times... speaking like Gilbert Gottfreid?

 

[9tailedflame]

I think a big reason why so many people want Ecchi/titillating/borderline porn games comes down to one single word; Control.

You cant control the camera in porno vids, you can't make the actors get into exact positions and read your mind. Select your cow off the rack and pan around and get those titties giggle, ass bobbing, wearing THAT bikini and talking like Gilbert Gottfreid! Real people have their own tastes and more importantly judgments, but a buncha polygons wont judge me, is the central thought process I'd imagine.

What's more important though is why Japan's anime porn industry is mostly made up of underaged sisters being raped, or a mix of those three. Am I weird with my love of legal lesbians with big gozongas having consensual fun times... speaking like Gilbert Gottfreid?

Now i'm imagining a porn vid where lesbians talk sexy to each other with the voice of Gilbert Gottfreid, thanks for that.

 

[Paragon Fury]

I...was thinking of making another post, but you guys seemed to have turned my thread into a free-for-all here.

 

[IceForce]

I...was thinking of making another post, but you guys seemed to have turned my thread into a free-for-all here.

Well, you could start by explaining this:

sexy time isn't happening for me unless I'm the last man standing,

What makes you say this? (Bearing in mind that misanthropy and self-pity are usually huge turn-offs where women are concerned, which effectively turns the above attitude into a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.)

 

[runic knight]

I...was thinking of making another post, but you guys seemed to have turned my thread into a free-for-all here.

I thought the thread was a simple counter-point to an often regurgitated "just watch porn" excuse for people bashing on a game that titillates, done with a more entertaining tone. That some used it as excuse to attack your character for daring to have different tastes is sadly not unexpected, though I had seen some others posting about the topic with regard to differences between sex and titillation or even extrapolating the topic to talk about differences between games and video and how the differences there could factor in.

It is a good topic, shame that it devolved the way it did.

 

[KissingSunlight]

Let's be honest. Anyone who makes the argument "Why don't you watch porn?" is most likely a prude.

To get some context, I embedded a video from a DOA Volleyball game.
If this is porn, then real life beach volleyball must be a live sex show. I've tried to take sexism in videogame argument seriously. I stopped. Their argument simply boils down to: OMG!!! That videogame character has boobs!

We need to stop taking these people seriously. They are no different from the conservative prudes who burned books and try to ban rap and rock music.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Some things of note Guppy. For one, I've found that the people clamoring for maturity tend to be some of the most immature people. Anyone who is actually mature generally doesn't try and bring attention to it.

For another, what exactly do you mean by mature, and what makes you thing the gaming industry hasn't reached that point? Cause if the existance of mindless boobathons make you think the industry isn't mature, then there's pretty much no media that is.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Some things of note Guppy. For one, I've found that the people clamoring for maturity tend to be some of the most immature people. Anyone who is actually mature generally doesn't try and bring attention to it.

For another, what exactly do you mean by mature, and what makes you thing the gaming industry hasn't reached that point? Cause if the existance of mindless boobathons make you think the industry isn't mature, then there's pretty much no media that is.

Heh. So...okay. If you think anything I said constitutes "clamoring", and if pleases you to believe I'm immature, then have it. Fill yer boots. I appreciate the random drive by insult, I guess?

 

[springheeljack]

Yeah put me in the camp that just really finds fan service boring and really intrusive especially in shows that are very dramatic and are dealing with some intense shit. Take Muv Luv alternative the anime series. It has a lot going for it the first episode is wonderfully intense and yet a lot of it is ruined by just a huge amount of just obnoxious fan service that is thrown in. I don't like that shit being in a serious story not that it has to be serious all the time but it feels wrong to have that stuff in a show where the first episode shows people being torn apart by aliens.

 

[Paragon Fury]

I...was thinking of making another post, but you guys seemed to have turned my thread into a free-for-all here.

Well, you could start by explaining this:

sexy time isn't happening for me unless I'm the last man standing,

What makes you say this? (Bearing in mind that misanthropy and self-pity are usually huge turn-offs where women are concerned, which effectively turns the above attitude into a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.)

Well, I say it because its largely true. I don't have the looks, charm or money to be attractive to women. I also don't have a car and don't want children, which in the US are two incredibly huge negatives.

Add onto that I'm not willing to just go for ANY woman willing to give me the time of day. AND I won't deal with a smoker, which is a bit of a problem in my area.

For the final touch add my general social anxiety and the fact that this is my brain in the presence of a woman in a non-professional setting;

Spoiler

Yeah.

 

[Chris Moses]

I don't know if it's so much dismissal as just not getting the exact appeal of some of these things. The DOAX series are a good example: I don't think I've ever met anyone who considered the little mini-games and volleyball simulator to be so damn good that it was worthy of a $60 purchase, so what possible other appeal can the game have? Oh that's right: hot busty cartoon women in bikinis.

But even not talking about porn, that makes little sense. I can hop onto Youtube right now and watch 1000 different bikini contests. If anime girls are your thing, I could easily find thousands of videos of busty anime or cartoon girls. And again, all of this is FREE. So what possible motivation does someone have to pay that kind of money for something that is available essentially for free all over the place? Don't get me wrong, if you want to buy the DOAX games then feel free, but I can't say that I understand it.

Add onto that the women in porn for the most part don't...look very good. Like at all.

You must have seen a bunch of really bad porn or not watched much of it. Even people I know who vehemently hate porn will admit that a lot of the actresses are gorgeous (though by no means all). Not to mention that there are so many porn actresses out there covering just about every body type and ethnicity imaginable that you'd be hard pressed not to find at least a couple you'd find attractive.

First of all let me preface my post with saying that I am gay and thus have no sexual (or otherwise) interest in DOAX.

But, let's say that someone finds the girls on DOAX perfect. Then, you don't have to spend hours searching Youtube for anything. Sure you can find 1,000's of videos but are they good videos? Plus, you get to interact with the girls in DOAX. You can't interact with porn or other videos.

Secondly, and this may be something of a shock, but I like straight porn, too. Or, I should say, "I like the idea of straight porn". The problem is that I have the damnedest time finding GOOD porn especially for free. And, before you say it, I have seen LOTS of porn. Name a free site and chances are I have been there already.

The problem with free sites, as I see them, are-
bad acting (even in "amature" porn) from one or both of the actors
Poor image quality
slow bandwidth that makes the videos take too long to load or buffer in the middle
one or both of the actors are ugly/skeevy
they usually treat the woman like a piece of trash and do everything they can to demean, humiliate, and belittle her
searching for hours to find the one video that doesn't have one of the above problems
they are usually plastered with adds that range from annoying/distracting to downright off putting

I keep hearing about this glorious utopia of free porn full of smoking hot actors and actresses, but I haven't seen it and am skeptical that it really exists, so if you know of a site that doesn't have the above problems then please share it.

Here, let me make it easier by listing the sites I remember visiting- Xtube, Porn Hub, XNXX, You Porn, Tube8, Red Tube, Xvideos, and Xhamster. Bear in mind that some of these sites were recommended to me after complaining about the above problems and I still wasn't satisfied.

 

[SweetShark]

Here, let me make it easier by listing the sites I remember visiting- Xtube, Porn Hub, XNXX, You Porn, Tube8, Red Tube, Xvideos, and Xhamster. Bear in mind that some of these sites were recommended to me after complaining about the above problems and I still wasn't satisfied.

Moses, please guide me where I can find better quality Porn in the Wild?

For the other people, please ignore me. I am just passing.