Keyboard and mouse are losing the FPS market

[Treblaine]

I'll be honest, I'd love to see someone rock up to a professional TF2 tournament with a gamepad or controller and go "It's okay guys, I'm playing Heavy." only to be laughed out of the building when a Scout shits all over him without ever needing to hit the jump key.

It's hard enough for a Heavy to kill a decent Scout if they manage to close the gap, I can't imagine how difficult it would be with a game pad. The same goes for Market Gardening people or attempting to get a successful Sandman/Cleaver combo. All difficult moves even on a K&M that can be extremely useful if pulled off, I can not imagine ever being capable of such feats on a controller.

Ok, enough jokes about gamepad-users. This has been a tough time for them on this thread, they've had their bubble well and truly burst on assumptions of how utterly dominating their supposedly chosen input is. I can only imagine they thought PC gamers were totally insignificant, but the numbers have rather backfired.

I really am going to have to question the "I just prefer gamepads" you don't get that preference on consoles, you don't even get to choose what type of controller you can use. It's gamepads or nothing. Gamepad support on on PC is working very much a gateway, when people are given the choice I've seen it time and time again they give up on gamepad once they've given mouse + keyboard a chance.

Otherwise what you really mean is "I'm more familiar with gamepad controller" which is of course accurate, yet for a reason to reject mouse + keyboard obviously circular. You are familiar with what you use, if you only use what you are familiar with. Once they've given mouse + keyboard controls a chance in games which really tests their skill level, then they can honestly say which one they prefer, well informed.

 

[VanQ]

I'll be honest, I'd love to see someone rock up to a professional TF2 tournament with a gamepad or controller and go "It's okay guys, I'm playing Heavy." only to be laughed out of the building when a Scout shits all over him without ever needing to hit the jump key.

It's hard enough for a Heavy to kill a decent Scout if they manage to close the gap, I can't imagine how difficult it would be with a game pad. The same goes for Market Gardening people or attempting to get a successful Sandman/Cleaver combo. All difficult moves even on a K&M that can be extremely useful if pulled off, I can not imagine ever being capable of such feats on a controller.

Ok, enough jokes about gamepad-users. This has been a tough time for them on this thread, they've had their bubble well and truly burst on assumptions of how utterly dominating their supposedly chosen input is. I can only imagine they thought PC gamers were totally insignificant, but the numbers have rather backfired.

I really am going to have to question the "I just prefer gamepads" you don't get that preference on consoles, you don't even get to choose what type of controller you can use. It's gamepads or nothing. Gamepad support on on PC is working very much a gateway, when people are given the choice I've seen it time and time again they give up on gamepad once they've given mouse + keyboard a chance.

Otherwise what you really mean is "I'm more familiar with gamepad controller" which is of course accurate, yet for a reason to reject mouse + keyboard obviously circular. You are familiar with what you use, if you only use what you are familiar with. Once they've given mouse + keyboard controls a chance in games which really tests their skill level, then they can honestly say which one they prefer, well informed.

On the last page alone I see the words "Point and click adventure game" used to describe playing an FPS with a M&K at least twice. I think these are the kind of folk that should be ridiculed because they're quite openly speaking out of their asses.

I fully understand the point you're trying to make. But there's no arguing with people that refuse to see both sides of a coin. I have played dozens upon dozens of FPS over the years across multiple consoles and of course PC. I would never argue that a controller might be more comfortable for some folk, but it's quite clear that some of these guys genuinely refuse to admit that anything but a gamepad might be worthwhile.

 

[ThriKreen]

There's just no effective way to measure which is objectively better. There are way too many variables. (In relation to controllers) Even if you could get two people with the exact same skill level, one may be better at the particular map, better with their weapon of choice, etc. (Two is way too many, right? ). You may as well say Red is better than Blue because statistically Red team wins more often. They do, btw: http://www.1up.com/news/study-red-team-beats-blue

I honestly can't find the article for this, since it was awhile ago, but I remember reading about how an FPS game maker had support for K+M vs. gamepad players, to try out cross platform, multiple input play. And even stated he put veteran but average FPS players on the K+M input and all-stars on the gamepads.

They didn't say what criteria for how they classified the two tiers of players, but my guess would be the average players get 1:1 in a game, while the all-stars would regularly get 2:1. Veteran would mean they at least know the map well enough to navigate and know where all the nooks and crannies are.

And the result of the test? The average k+m players destroyed the gamepad players by such a significant margin, they decided not to go with the multiple input/cross platform for competitive play.

When I have some time I'll see if I can dig up the article, but it was rather telling on the topic.

 

[Treblaine]

Please...just no more stupid arguing over what's better. It isn't a subjective thing, Mouse and Keyboard are far superior for FPS. People might PREFER to use a gamepad, and that's fine. But don't be under any illusions over which is better.

But it is subjective. The game pad is better for me because I never play online multiplayer, and because I grew up using a game pad so I play better using one. Playing an FPS with M+KB makes me feel like I'm playing a fast-paced point-and-click adventure game with one puzzle: shoot the moving things until they stop moving. But don't let my opinion get in the way of The Truth (read: your opinion).

Yes, better for YOU. That doesn't make the gamepad more efficient as a device in general. It's just what you've learnt.

Ok look at it this way.

The worlds best knife fighter might beat the world's worst gun fighter, but if the guy holding the gun has even the most basic clue, he's going to come out on top 80% of the time because his device is simply more efficient for the task.

Using a gamepad in an fps that had both control options is a handicap, no matter the skill levels. Does this mean you will always lose? Of course not. It just makes it that much harder to win.

I'm not saying the gamepad is better in general. I'm saying neither are better, objectively. For both gamepad vs M+KB and your analogy, it depends on who you're asking. A ninja with a blade vs. my 92-year-old grandmother with a firearm and my money's on the ninja. Giving me a M+KB would make it much harder for me to win regardless. THAT would be my handicap. If you analyse the devices on their own, they're both going to be equally inanimate.

There's just no effective way to measure which is objectively better. There are way too many variables. (In relation to controllers) Even if you could get two people with the exact same skill level, one may be better at the particular map, better with their weapon of choice, etc. (Two is way too many, right? ). You may as well say Red is better than Blue because statistically Red team wins more often. They do, btw: http://www.1up.com/news/study-red-team-beats-blue

I agree that which is better is a stupid arguement, just for a different reason.

because I never play online multiplayer, and because I grew up using a game pad so I play better using one.

No. You are mistaking yourself being better with a gamepad after years of experience over a mouse with the contrivance of no experience and refusal to play it in any competitive way with multiplayer as "objectively not different".

Contriving circumstances to give an opposite outcome doesn't proove there is no fundamental difference

Your logic for being better with gamepad is purely circular, you are familiar with it so you use it, because you use it you are familiar. You are never giving Mouse a chance. The fact is in tests it has been found when the chance is given, when all prejudices are set aside, mouse is better at its job as a pointing device for games.

http://www.aviation.illinois.edu/avimain/papers/research/pub_pdfs/hfes/Evaluation%20of%20Input%20Devices%20for%20an%20FPS%20Program.pdf

A very impartial study, purely looking at various controller interfaces for a shooting simulator.

"Results are strikingly uniform in favoring the keyboard + mouse over the other two devices."

The other two devices being a flight simulator joystick and a console gamepad.

"On the whole, it appears gamepad user?s performance may have been hindered by joysticks (the right thumbstick especially) being suboptimal first-order pointing devices, an interpretation that is consistent with findings from previous literature."

Giving me a M+KB would make it much harder for me to win regardless.

No, not "regardless". That's because you refuse to become familiar with it because you aren't familiar with it already. Just because you aren't instantly good with something that's not a reason to never consider something. I mean there was a time you weren't familiar with gamepad controls.

Now I am experienced and enthusiastic for gamepad for FPS games and I CANNOT match my performance with a mouse. Simply cannot.

You may think people who game on PC have always done so, most of the cases that is not true, I like many people I game with on PC today were raised playing console games...

Even if you could get two people with the exact same skill level

That's a terrible way to test. You get LARGE groups, not just two people, and aggregate the results to iron out individual quirks. That does find mouse + keyboard is more capable in fulfilling the criteria of an 3D shooter interface.

But you can go the other way and do it a singular basis where one person's own ability where they have equal experience on both gamepad and mouse, find which they do better with. Again, mouse + keyboard wins out. Gamepad only wins stacking all the odds in its favour with special treatment of extra time vs no experience with mouse, and avoiding serious challenges.

Red team wins more often.

Your study admits it's a tiny 5% difference from normal, truly insignificant comparing to actually looking at individual team make ups, it's just wrong to "always bet on red". What if red has a better team in one particular random make-up? Overall, it woule mean over time of random team assignment either side might get the better team and the boost of "suck it blue!" attitude only giving a slight boost for a 5% overall lead. Only bet on red when you know in all other aspects the team are completely equal.

 

[Treblaine]

On the last page alone I see the words "Point and click adventure game" used to describe playing an FPS with a M&K at least twice. I think these are the kind of folk that should be ridiculed because they're quite openly speaking out of their asses.

I fully understand the point you're trying to make. But there's no arguing with people that refuse to see both sides of a coin. I have played dozens upon dozens of FPS over the years across multiple consoles and of course PC. I would never argue that a controller might be more comfortable for some folk, but it's quite clear that some of these guys genuinely refuse to admit that anything but a gamepad might be worthwhile.

Well I've tried ridicule... for almost a decade.

It doesn't work.

They just circle their wagons and get defensive, start repeating mantras like "get off your high horse" and "PC elitist". Any good argument you use they will just ignore you, never reply to your refutation... then you see them in another thread using the same fallacies I just refuted as if... well I don't know what to make of people who do things like that.

The petty bickering has got to end. I understand the mocking and you're right, they won't see both sides of the coin but as understandable as it might be to ridicule the ridiculous claims that makes them unwilling to consider.

You need to make them realise that we have common values and they don't know what they are missing out on.

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

At the end of the day this debate will go nowhere, it won't change anyone to the side of PC's in one full swoop and vice versa.

I game a lot better with a gamepad than I ever will with a mouse and I've even given the mouse a lot of chances down the line but the gamepad serves me well and has done so for the past decade and most likely will in the future.

Only time I will ever really use a mouse over a gamepad will sometimes be on an RTS game and I'm still comfortable playing a console RTS game.

 

[tippy2k2]

best captcha ever: are you a human?

That works beautifully with Starzdas [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.401462-Keyboard-and-mouse-are-losing-the-FPS-market?page=2#16539878]'s comment from earlier

But I will state to you (and everyone else who has stated that they agree with me but consoles don't let them), I'll say this: I 100% agree; consoles SHOULD allow you to use the mouse and keyboard if you so wish and them not catering to that niche just hurts themselves.

As to your later comments, I have...some experience with PC gaming (not a lot mind you). I've played STALKER, Half-Life, and a little bit of Counter-strike/Day of Defeat (or whatever that WWII mod was called). I also played Shadowrun (the PC/360 crossover) and while it was rare to run into a PC gamer, you did and I felt that I could hold my own against them pretty easily.

As to your (and many others who have stated in this thread that they would shred me using my gamepad controller), all I can say is that I disagree. You could argue that from a technical stand-point, the keyboard/mouse combo is better and I would...reluctantly agree with that. However, in actual game-play, I believe I could hold my own against anyone using the PC combo using my controller. In fact, as someone just now squeaking into the PC gaming realm, I have just bought a wireless adapter thingy to make my 360 controller usable on my PC. Once it arrives (Amazon rocks!), I can more fully test this theory...

 

[Jandau]

I would just like to state that it never ceases to amaze me that when sales figures are added up, PC always has to contend against ALL THE CONSOLES put together. Even in cases where it's the single biggest platform for a game, it's still declared as the "loser" because PS3+360 together have more users. And if it has the same player number as any other single platform (the frequently seen 33/33/33% split), then it's a "total loser" instead of an equal platform.

Also, it's always down to sales of physical copies, when a massive an ever growing number of PC sales is Digital Distribution, for which data is unavailable. And even in physical copies the PC tends to more or less break even with any single platform, meaning that if DD sales were added in it would likely be the most profitable platform.

But yeah, as people keep saying, PC gaming is dead...

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Benchmark? Final Cut Pro isn't a benchmarking prog, it's the industry standard program for video editting.

That said, no, macs are not better for creative projects. They might have been 20 years ago but for the past 15 at least that idea has been nothing but wishful dickpulling by mac fanboys and perpetuated by morons stuck in their prejudices by clinging to the machines they learned on.

can you get final cut pro on a PC?

Nope, Mac only... which is unfortunate for film and media students... or would be if so many of them weren't the exact same kind of dickheads who will buy anything bearing the rotten fruit logo.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I also played Shadowrun (the PC/360 crossover) and while it was rare to run into a PC gamer, you did and I felt that I could hold my own against them pretty easily.

Yeah and you should probably read up on how much they had to gimp PC players to make it 'fair' before you dislocate a shoulder patting yourself on the back.

 

[Fumbles]

I played Shadowrun (a PC+360 cross-platform game that someone mentioned earlier in the thread a lot) and I went up against PC players using my 360 controller. I found the experience just fine and I could hold my own with no problem. I play better with a controller. You play better with a mouse and keyboard. Why does it HAVE to be one or the other?

You had no problem because the game had mad auto aim for controller users.

 

[Treblaine]

best captcha ever: are you a human?

That works beautifully with Starzdas [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.401462-Keyboard-and-mouse-are-losing-the-FPS-market?page=2#16539878]'s comment from earlier

But I will state to you (and everyone else who has stated that they agree with me but consoles don't let them), I'll say this: I 100% agree; consoles SHOULD allow you to use the mouse and keyboard if you so wish and them not catering to that niche just hurts themselves.

As to your later comments, I have...some experience with PC gaming (not a lot mind you). I've played STALKER, Half-Life, and a little bit of Counter-strike/Day of Defeat (or whatever that WWII mod was called). I also played Shadowrun (the PC/360 crossover) and while it was rare to run into a PC gamer, you did and I felt that I could hold my own against them pretty easily.

As to your (and many others who have stated in this thread that they would shred me using my gamepad controller), all I can say is that I disagree. You could argue that from a technical stand-point, the keyboard/mouse combo is better and I would...reluctantly agree with that. However, in actual game-play, I believe I could hold my own against anyone using the PC combo using my controller. In fact, as someone just now squeaking into the PC gaming realm, I have just bought a wireless adapter thingy to make my 360 controller usable on my PC. Once it arrives (Amazon rocks!), I can more fully test this theory...

Yeah. I actually agree with you it is possible that gamepad gamers will not be "shredded" on PC.

But that doesn't matter for most PC games if the only way you can survive is hanging back and being extremely defensive which is a victory in most PC games that are almost entirely objective based, scaring them away from an objective is as good as a kill. Team Fortress 2 doesn't even have a Team Deathmatch mode in the official rotation, being able to camp in a corner with a minigun won't help your team very much.

That's how gamepad gamers avoid total shredding, the back into a corner with a spam weapon and lose all ability to aggressively take the objective. They can't even take a commanding position in a deep defence, a Heavy needs to spin around and accurately hit those who try to flit behind them like scouts, spies and pyros. I mean a pyro's airblast or solder's rocket will suddenly jerk you up in the air, yu need a highly responsive input to counter that interference. Keyboard players can change direction much quicker as they aren't limited by having to roll their thumbstick over to change direction, they can tap A and D alternating with such speed it becomes way harder to predict movement... you can't so easily slowly pre-aim your reticule thumbstick and wait for them to walk into your sights

This is the problem with console FPS games were gamepad is used ubiquitously, the focus on deathmatch modes, it boils down to some sort of camping and waiting for people to run into your gunsights. Even domination mode on COD, the points are captured so quickly that it's a brief moment of exposure then back to head glitching and general "being ready for them to walk into my sights".

This is why I prefer games like TF2 over COD, the game can't be won by everyone being cowardly and cheap. TF2 depends on boldness and daring.

I still welcome gamepad users to join my TF2 games, but I'm telling you the gamepad is just for starters. If you want to really step up and be a credit to the team, you're going to have to be realistic about your controller input or face missing out on most of the opportunities open to you.

When you push objectives you need to have your head on a swivel and constantly shifting directions and I see gamepad gamers constantly lagging behind in that.

 

[EeviStev]

Words

So it comes down to the fraction of a second it takes to change the direction of the thumbstick? (That's not meant to be sarcastic, that's just what I got from that). EDIT: I've read more and am now aware there are other factors.
Also I was drawing a comparison between "Controller scheme X > Controller scheme Y" and "Red > Blue" Because there are so many factors in play affecting which is better for any given people / group of people.
Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to read that article you mentioned about the regulars vs. veterans study, if you manage to track it down.
I'm not saying there's no difference between the two controllers. At least, I'm not trying to. I'm trying to say the answers differ from person to person. What makes one controller better than the other can be different for different people. For me, it's mostly a matter of ergonomics. Others like the competitive edge for whatever reasons (the response times or whathaveyou). What makes X>Y is whatever works for you.
I didn't mean to say I've never used M+KB. I've played a heck of a lot of Max Payne 1 + 2 (for example) as well as competitive Unreal Tournament on compy, ages ago, and at the time I thought nothing of it. Then our house got a 360 and I immediately preferred it. I since have played Unreal Tournament and Counter Strike on PC and I found myself either having to constantly reset the position of the mouse, or always over-aiming when I increased the sensitivity. At this point, trying to get me to switch back to M+KB would be like telling Jimi Hendrix to turn his guitar the right way round. (I apologise for comparing myself to Jimi- it was the best analogy I could think of).
ANOTHER EDIT: I concede my argument is circular, and accept the findings of that study you posted. I admit that, given the time and practice, I in all liklihood would improve my FPS performance with a M+KB. I would still say the gamepad is better- that is, I would still personally prefer it- for reasons other than technical superiority, chiefly comfort and immersion. I don't deny M+KB is better in some aspects. My stance comes down to me and how I enjoy my games.
Put it this way: It's like if you think a sports car is better because it goes faster and has superior handling, and I think a luxury car is better because it has heated seats and leather upholstery.

On the last page alone I see the words "Point and click adventure game" used to describe playing an FPS with a M&K at least twice. I think these are the kind of folk that should be ridiculed because they're quite openly speaking out of their asses.

I fully understand the point you're trying to make. But there's no arguing with people that refuse to see both sides of a coin. I have played dozens upon dozens of FPS over the years across multiple consoles and of course PC. I would never argue that a controller might be more comfortable for some folk, but it's quite clear that some of these guys genuinely refuse to admit that anything but a gamepad might be worthwhile.

I said that, and I was only referring to my personal individual experience and preference. I've been saying from the start there's no right or wrong answer. I get it- it takes all kinds. For some people it's a comfort thing, some people like to get every edge they can get. I prefer the ergonomic 360 controller with the little plastic triggers that get me to do little triggery motions to shoot dudes. I've only ever been speaking of my personal preference, and I don't think it has been from my arse.

EDIT: @ron1n: I think we might be talking past each other. We have different definitions of what makes a controller scheme better. I definitely think you've made some valid points, they just don't fit my idea of what makes a controller better, is all.

As for the original topic, I don't think PCs are losing anything. The title of the thread is just a derivative of "PC gaming is dead", which has always been bollocks.

 

[ph0b0s123]

Goes to show that popular does not mean best, from a performance point of view.

Mouse and keyboard is a better control method than joypad. Understood that not everyone likes it, but joypad users generally cannot compete with M + K users. That has been proven repeatedly.

Joypad's have play from sofa comfort going for them, so are going to be more popular.

 

[Waaghpowa]

I honestly can't find the article for this, since it was awhile ago, but I remember reading about how an FPS game maker had support for K+M vs. gamepad players, to try out cross platform, multiple input play. And even stated he put veteran but average FPS players on the K+M input and all-stars on the gamepads.

http://www.rahulsood.com/2010/07/console-gamers-get-killed-against-pc.html I think you mean this?

 

[ThriKreen]

http://www.rahulsood.com/2010/07/console-gamers-get-killed-against-pc.html I think you mean this?

Looks like it! Thanks, I should book mark it.

 

[Aikayai]

I can't see anything replacing keyboard and mouse until sight and shoot is developed. Can't think of a controller with more bandwidth than your eyes (except maybe the brain but its a little harder to read information directly ).