Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[MrMan999]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into?

I know FF has definitely touched on this, and there's a pretty significant body of scholarly work on the subject.

Really? Which video? I just went through what I'm pretty sure is her whole archive and don't remember her specifically mentioning anything. I must have missed one.

I'm pretty sure it comes up in the Lego one, for instance - basically she's not a fan of the way the portrayal of male characters valorizes violence, or the way men are discouraged from showing emotions, etc.

I was really asking more specifically about video games. I've certainly read quite a few scholarly pieces on male characters in literature and film, but I don't really see it come up in the gaming community and I feel like it probably should be talked about.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see something like this. I've seen/heard quite a few takes on the way that many video games are essentially about killing stuff, but none that I know of that specifically relate this to the way games portray masculinity.

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

Theres a difference between critical thinking and shitslinging. Starting the privelige debate on the internet leads to the latter.

 

[Matthew Kjonaas]

I am pretty sure the way that these guys reacted is why so many people think the internet is a bad place for kids and maybe also why there is a stereotype of gamers being sexiest.

 

[WanderingFool]

Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin'

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

Theres a difference between critical thinking and shitslinging. Starting the privelige debate on the internet leads to the latter.

That's what happens when jimmies are rustled. We better not say anything that challenges any worldviews ever. Can't have anyone getting mad about something they read on the internet.

 

[JediMB]

here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

As a brony, I'm going to agree with him on that the Bronycon documentary is entirely unnecessary. People could be spending their money on much better things than a documentary glorifying their cartoon fandom. Maybe a decade down the line, if the fandom is still alive, something like that would be justified.

Strongly disagree about Tropes vs. Women, however. "Females have ample and adequate representation in video games," he says, using the target demographic as an excuse to ignore the larger issues. Not to mention that, by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing "our" games and sending a message about the female sex to their players.

Personally I haven't participated in either Kickstarter, but I am looking forward to seeing the results of the latter.

 

[Bloodstain]

Wow. Talk about one sided journalism. For a rational view of why people are against this for a reason why people are against this who aren't misogynistic pricks, that isn't just picking youtube comments, which are vile on every subject under the sun, and calling it news, here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

I actually agree with that man. It really is pointless.
Besides, I fail to see why anyone would pay money for a documentary that, in essence, doesn't do more than repeat the content of TVTropes pages.

I don't condone the harsh misogynist reaction -- but I don't condone the project either. But oh well, if people have too much money, then fine.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin'

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

Yeah, it was both. The Escapist was being dicks about the EC arm-fixing charity, and EC hadn't been getting fully compensated for quite a while. Turns out that videos with good production value aren't free, who knew?

 

[Richardplex]

here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

As a brony, I'm going to agree with him on that the Bronycon documentary is entirely unnecessary. People could be spending their money on much better things than a documentary glorifying their cartoon fandom. Maybe a decade down the line, if the fandom is still alive, something like that would be justified.

Strongly disagree about Tropes vs. Women, however. "Females have ample and adequate representation in video games," he says, using the target demographic as an excuse to ignore the larger issues. Not to mention that, by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing "our" games and sending a message about the female sex to their players.

Personally I haven't participated in either Kickstarter, but I am looking forward to seeing the results of the latter.

Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

This Kickstarter NEEDS horrendous people making these posts. Because this kickstarter NEEDS to fail.

You're about $45,000 too late haha.

Because all one has to do is say "Sexism" and...



Because throwing money at a problem is easier than trying to acknowledge it.[/quote]

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.[/quote]Come to think of it, I've never seen an ad for Barbie with a boy playing with the doll... Outrageous sexism!

 

[itsthesheppy]

You know, if you don't think something should have money spent on it, don't spend money on it. If money is being spent on it, clearly people care about that thing.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence.

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, is what you're saying here that male characters have it just as bad because they are always depicted as selfless heroes who, regardless of their personal struggles, work for the greater good and save the day? Are you really saying that's just as bad as female characters, who typically serve as either window dressing or victims, or both?

snip

snip

If you want that conversation to happen, then spark it. It's a very large internet out there, and I don't think we're in any danger of reaching a data load limit on the Escapist forums. Start one. In fact, I'll even join in, because I don't *disagree* with you. Not... entirely.

Portraying men as grunting violence factories isn't great, no. But it's worth keeping aware that they are also depicted as being pro-active hero types who are, for all their grunting and juicing, saving the day at great personal risk. While they tend to be one-dimensional, boring, lame, uninspired, and generally unlikable for many reasons, we would be remiss not to point out that on the whole, it could be worse. They could be token characters who exist only to be victims or objects of desire, and frequently both.

Bringing it up in this conversation, however, serves to distract. It makes you come across as someone who's uncomfortable talking about Their issues, and who would be more comfortable talking about Your issues. Racism is still an issue. Homophobia is an issue. Nationalism is an issue. Pollution is an issue. There are millions of issues. Right now, in this thread, we're talking about a female pop-culture commentator who is being harassed; someone who comes in and says "But why aren't we talking about the endangered snow owl?!" comes across as someone who has a problem perhaps not so much with snow owls, but who would rather *not* be talking about anti-female sexism, and seeks instead to talk about something, anything, else.

What you're suggesting is an issue. However, bringing it up in this thread doesn't serve the conversation very much, except to passively say that there could be other things *you'd* rather be talking about. The question then begs: why do you think that's more important than this?

Fundamentally, I don't see them as different conversations. I think making "pro-active hero" an equal opportunity role requires doing the same for roles like "victim" and "object of desire", so why not deal with them together?

It seemed that everything that could be said about the Youtube comments (the original topic of this thread) had already been said (I had an earlier comment on them myself) and that people had moved on to other subjects related to gender in video games. As such, I brought up a point that I thought of as a result of watching that video, reading the Kickstarter page and going to FF to browse some of her other videos. If this were a thread about one of those videos, I would not bring up the point because it would indeed be a distraction from the topic at hand, but I saw this as a thread about talking about gender in video games, rather than a thread specifically about the portrayal of women (I see that there are fortunately several active threads dealing with that very subject at the present time). I apologize if I appear to be derailing anything.

Once again, this topic started as a discussion of Youtube comments. I think that a serious discussion about gender of any kind is more important than anything which has ever been written in a Youtube comment. If people had really been debating them, I wouldn't have brought this up, but everyone said either "this is horrible, the gaming community has a problem" or "this is horrible, but that's what I expect from Youtube comments" and people had already started up the same circular arguments about what feminism is that crop up in every thread that even mentions gender. I didn't see any women talking about their problems and viewpoints (if I missed any, I apologize), I saw a declaration that a woman is going to do so at some unspecified future date. I'm sorry, but I can't make much conversation or analysis out of that and I can't talk about her videos until she actually makes them.

I brought this up hear because the Kickstarter this is all about made me think of it, and I haven't written anything about it myself yet because that happened less than three hours ago. Honestly, I was hoping someone more qualified than myself had already written something about it.

I feel pretty confident that I don't secretly want to avoid talking about sexist portrayals of women because I have written about it (primarily in the context of film) in three different languages, which is something I feel like I would not have done if I didn't want to talk about it.

 

[Phasmal]

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.

Oh, bloody hell. Seriously? This conversation?
Ladies are a bigger part of the demographic now than they used to be and it's only gonna get bigger. Games are not `for guys`.
I buy plenty of games, and none of my games are pink and frilly.

Would you really justify:
`Well not enough black people are buying this stuff so it's okay to be racist in it`?

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Come to think of it, I've never seen an ad for Barbie with a boy playing with the doll... Outrageous sexism!

Watch, if it gets a response it will boil down to

"No no, they are just brainwashed into thinking they like that stuff."

My mum bought me a mermaid Barbie doll when I was about six. I loved playing with it. Why are there no male figures playing with Barbie dolls in my ads, damn it! I am so outraged, I am going to start a Kickstarter to raise awareness for men being excluded from things! Oh, right... I'm a white male. Only minorities and women can call something racist or sexist. I totally forgot.

 

[Shiftygiant]

Now while I agree that woman occasionally misrepresented in video-games, she can do this for free! And it has no real productive skill. To call her out on this, fine. Makes sense to state: 'Not all woman in video-games are misrepresented, and by not giving us a show that details the making of a good female character by looking at the mistakes we have made and the better female characters as to create a better medium'.
That response is the sought of thing that should be the majority. Instead we get a vile underbelly of sexism, racism and general ignorance.
BUT
This is free speech, the concept of which is that you, as the individual, makes there choice and states it. Her choice, to create a pointless series that has been done a thousand times more meaningful in less then 5 episodes for free, is her choice and she should be allowed to pursue this. The vile backlash is there freedom of choice, much akin to how causally racist British newspapers can be. The point is that anyone can state there opinions, even if it makes your blood boil as the advocate things you would spend your life apposing.

The whole anonymity was better summed up here http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 at penny arcade. The matter of the fact is while you can say things, its not a right. Freedom of speech is a privilege that can be taken away by the proper authority, like the forum admins on this lovely site.

 

[The Floating Nose]

On behalf of every decent men on the internet (the others, you can go fuck yourselves). I give my apologies to all women in the world for the comments that these stupid fucks made.

 

[JediMB]

Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

True enough. Well, like I said, I'm looking forward to the results. Hopefully Sarkeesian will have a pleasant surprise for the people who dismiss her series in advance. Hopefully.

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `our´ games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Now while I agree that woman occasionally misrepresented in video-games, she can do this for free! And it has no real productive skill. To call her out on this, fine. Makes sense to state: 'Not all woman in video-games are misrepresented, and by not giving us a show that details the making of a good female character by looking at the mistakes we have made and the better female characters as to create a better medium'.
That response is the sought of thing that should be the majority. Instead we get a vile underbelly of sexism, racism and general ignorance.
BUT
This is free speech, the concept of which is that you, as the individual, makes there choice and states it. Her choice, to create a pointless series that has been done a thousand times more meaningful in less then 5 episodes for free, is her choice and she should be allowed to pursue this. The vile backlash is there freedom of choice, much akin to how causally racist British newspapers can be. The point is that anyone can state there opinions, even if it makes your blood boil as the advocate things you would spend your life apposing.

The whole anonymity was better summed up here http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 at penny arcade. The matter of the fact is while you can say things, its not a right. Freedom of speech is a privilege that can be taken away by the proper authority, like the forum admins on this lovely site.

They can't take away your right to say whatever you want. All they can do is stop you from doing it here. But that was nitpicking and I actually liked your post. So... -A overall