For some time I've been of the opinion that the most effective way to destroy a person's will to live is to force them to spend about half an hour reading Youtube comments. I'd really like to see [a href="http://xkcd.com/481/"]something like this[/a] implemented - if it results in just one moron becoming aware of their own stupidity, I'd declare it a success.
Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde
- Thread starter The Wooster
- Start date
Then explain to me what rape culture is, because the other guy is doing a poor job at it.PiCroft said:
Not quite what we're talking about. My very tone makes it rather clear that I'm not talking about censorship, but rather shutting down a message someone is trying to convey. While someone DOES have the right to be a rabble rouser and seek attention through the media and so on, people also have the right to confront it and try and yank their platform through their own freedom of speech.Grey Carter said:
So really, what would you do in order to try and shut down a message you didn't agree with? Ignore the specifics of this issue. Are you going to say that you've never attacked someone you disagree with, through mockery and parody if nothing else? Granted your not as low-brow as these guys are but you've definatly made some rather biting criticisms of the gaming industry and the positions it's been taking through your work. I'd argue it's similar to what you or Penny Arcade have been doing in your own way for years, just not as sophisticated, and from an alternative viewpoint.
In case there is some confusion, I want to make it 100% clear that I think women do have a place in gaming. What I disagree with is that gaming represents some kind of anti-female bastion or negative messages. Largely because I've spent a VERY long time looking at the things women create on their own, and oftentimes for a female audience. The basic logic being espoused here if applied to media in general would have 90% of the paranormal romance stuff, and shows like "True Blood" under fire. From my perspective aiming at gaming is being done because it's one of the few areas (for reasons I will not go into) where this kind of a message will be taken seriously and given a platform. If she had chosen to say target other media the work work of Laura K. Hamilton, Kim Harrison, Charlene Harris, Julie Bell, CLAMP, or numerous creators and rabid fan bases would shut her down much faster than we're seeing here and in a fashion that makes this seem bloody polite.
Now, it's fine if you and others disagree on this specific issue, but don't misunderstand my message or assume that I believe in the literal truth of the counter attacks being made so much as the opposition they represent. I see myself as a defender of gaming, for both men and women, and this being a threat of a sort best dealt with through fan rage as actual censorship is not an issue.
In the end we'll doubtlessly have to agree to disagree, and you (and others) might not see the distinction I'm pointing out, but to me it's important. I treat this as any other attempt to modify media content (which is what she ultimatly wants, she's pushing for a form of censorship herself whenyou get down to it). To me claiming that gaming is sexist in it's current form is like claiming that gaming is too violent. Claiming it encourages mistreatment of women and negative perceptions of them, is like claiming video game violence turns people into killers and violent offenders. I view her just as I do Jack Thomson, it's just she's coming from a differant angle.
@Feminist Frequency.
If you're reading this, then, thank you, for taking the time to click the link in my Youtube comment, to see what I have to say in its fullest. It tells me that you have an open mind, which is good, because it means you might listen to what I have to say.
I'm an advocator of free speech, and while I'm usually the first to jump on any feministic remark like it directly insulted me, you have the right of free speech too. Simply put: the reception you're getting from your videos, while keeping in mind that this is Youtube, and they have their own rights too, only helps strengthen your argument.
When the top comment of your video is something that can get you fired for sexual harassment in a work environment, even I, the manliest defender of man, have to step back and take a sideways look at it all.
I'll save my disagreements with the video (though, really, they're mainly minor nitpicks,) and maybe walk away from this with some more insight and a more open mind. While, yes, I see the counterargument that is 'we're men and we like boobs and have the right to stare at them', there seems to be nothing in that video that says that right will be taken away. Which is good; see the right to free expression.
Instead, your video seems to be aimed more at creating a more diverse use of the female character archetype in general in video games, and expanding the sub-archetypes in the industry, eventually translating into a wider range of female characters.
It seems to me like, whether you want it to or not, you're not asking for the Mostly-Naked-Warrior or Damsel-in-distress or generally weak archetypes to go away. It seems more like you're asking for more characters to pop up who break those archetypes, are asking writers to be creative, and create more characters who are more diverse, like Leona from League of Legends.
So I'll support your project. I can't put in much now, but:
While I don't consider the industry to be very creatively stagnant, as others do, I do think there's alot of stagnation in the writing right now. It seems to me like most writers just pick out a random trope from TVTropes, and base a character around that. The same video series could probably be brought up in the portrayal of African American characters in games, and how we need more diversity, for example.
So, just to clarify, you're getting support from someone whose, as he's typing this, is running Tera in the background, and is playing a female Castanic warrior. Someone who frequently offers counterarguments to feminism and accuses most people of being white knights.
But, on that same note, someone who took one look at those comments and went 'yeah, enough is enough. Debating, arguing even, is one thing. Ignoring the points entirely and telling someone to go back to the kitchen, that's just immature.'
Also, I'll leave this message on this note:
As a writer, I already try to include a diverse variety of female characters in my writing. In fact, my deepest characters are female, and one of which, is the Aspect of freakin' Death, and she's strong, cold, a bit flawed, only a little crazy, and doesn't cook. She also killed the Grim Reaper and took his place. As a writer... I'll keep this video in mind, and at the very least, use it as enlightenment for the ideas in my work. My cast is diverse as is, but maybe I can push it farther.
In other words, I was inspired by someone who supports feminism, and I never thought I'd see the day.
inb4 I'm called a white knight whose trying to get elaid and should grow a spine (balls) and be a member of the true master race
give me a break, I thought this forum was full of autistics, not stupid people.
If you're reading this, then, thank you, for taking the time to click the link in my Youtube comment, to see what I have to say in its fullest. It tells me that you have an open mind, which is good, because it means you might listen to what I have to say.
I'm an advocator of free speech, and while I'm usually the first to jump on any feministic remark like it directly insulted me, you have the right of free speech too. Simply put: the reception you're getting from your videos, while keeping in mind that this is Youtube, and they have their own rights too, only helps strengthen your argument.
When the top comment of your video is something that can get you fired for sexual harassment in a work environment, even I, the manliest defender of man, have to step back and take a sideways look at it all.
I'll save my disagreements with the video (though, really, they're mainly minor nitpicks,) and maybe walk away from this with some more insight and a more open mind. While, yes, I see the counterargument that is 'we're men and we like boobs and have the right to stare at them', there seems to be nothing in that video that says that right will be taken away. Which is good; see the right to free expression.
Instead, your video seems to be aimed more at creating a more diverse use of the female character archetype in general in video games, and expanding the sub-archetypes in the industry, eventually translating into a wider range of female characters.
It seems to me like, whether you want it to or not, you're not asking for the Mostly-Naked-Warrior or Damsel-in-distress or generally weak archetypes to go away. It seems more like you're asking for more characters to pop up who break those archetypes, are asking writers to be creative, and create more characters who are more diverse, like Leona from League of Legends.
So I'll support your project. I can't put in much now, but:
While I don't consider the industry to be very creatively stagnant, as others do, I do think there's alot of stagnation in the writing right now. It seems to me like most writers just pick out a random trope from TVTropes, and base a character around that. The same video series could probably be brought up in the portrayal of African American characters in games, and how we need more diversity, for example.
So, just to clarify, you're getting support from someone whose, as he's typing this, is running Tera in the background, and is playing a female Castanic warrior. Someone who frequently offers counterarguments to feminism and accuses most people of being white knights.
But, on that same note, someone who took one look at those comments and went 'yeah, enough is enough. Debating, arguing even, is one thing. Ignoring the points entirely and telling someone to go back to the kitchen, that's just immature.'
Also, I'll leave this message on this note:
As a writer, I already try to include a diverse variety of female characters in my writing. In fact, my deepest characters are female, and one of which, is the Aspect of freakin' Death, and she's strong, cold, a bit flawed, only a little crazy, and doesn't cook. She also killed the Grim Reaper and took his place. As a writer... I'll keep this video in mind, and at the very least, use it as enlightenment for the ideas in my work. My cast is diverse as is, but maybe I can push it farther.
In other words, I was inspired by someone who supports feminism, and I never thought I'd see the day.
inb4 I'm called a white knight whose trying to get elaid and should grow a spine (balls) and be a member of the true master race
give me a break, I thought this forum was full of autistics, not stupid people.
i'm of several minds on this:
1) giving someone this much shit is almost never called for
2) on the other hand, this is youtube we're talking about and if you can't handle hateful people and trolls you should probably go elsewhere
3) i can see why people would be opposed to her talking about video games from just watching her kick starter tie in, she has very clearly staged this set up. everything is too clean to be a gamer set up, i.e. none of the controllers seem to have any wear on them and if games were anything more than just a passing fancy there should be very clear visible signs of use; also she is clearly not playing anything in the video. i'm not saying the hate speech is justified, but if someone was going to seriously be lecturing you about something very important to you, you'd be mad if you thought that it was a subject they had no prior foray in. say you're a physicist, you wouldn't want a plumber to lecture you on string theory.
personally, i don't care. i've been too tired lately to do or say anything other than this, and after this i'm detaching myself from the subject.
1) giving someone this much shit is almost never called for
2) on the other hand, this is youtube we're talking about and if you can't handle hateful people and trolls you should probably go elsewhere
3) i can see why people would be opposed to her talking about video games from just watching her kick starter tie in, she has very clearly staged this set up. everything is too clean to be a gamer set up, i.e. none of the controllers seem to have any wear on them and if games were anything more than just a passing fancy there should be very clear visible signs of use; also she is clearly not playing anything in the video. i'm not saying the hate speech is justified, but if someone was going to seriously be lecturing you about something very important to you, you'd be mad if you thought that it was a subject they had no prior foray in. say you're a physicist, you wouldn't want a plumber to lecture you on string theory.
personally, i don't care. i've been too tired lately to do or say anything other than this, and after this i'm detaching myself from the subject.
Helmholtz Watson said:
"Rape Culture" is a term used by some feminists to dramatize the idea they present that society is unfairly weighted in favor of men, and even if unintentionally strives to force women into a submissive position. In this case despite the strong language it doesn't actually have to do with "rape" in a literal sense, though the overall implication is that this alleged forced submission leads to the expectation women are there to be used and yes, raped.Helmholtz Watson said:
In sociology where it's covered (or was when I was in school, when the term was first appearing) it's a similar variation on a "straw man" arguement used by various minority groups, most similar to "invisible knapsack" theory.
"Invisible Knapsack" theory is all the things you as a member of the majority take for granted that is intimidating to a minority. An example would be how if you walk into a store and ask to see the person in charge, it's very likely that the person you wind up dealing with is going to be a member of your ethnicity. You don't think anything of that as a member of the majority and take comfort in it, but to someone of a differant ethnicity that very reality is intimidating in a way you can't understand. It also gets extended in more dubious directions, especially when it comes to the US, by pointing out that just about everything in the enviroment is created by or put there by white people, even in countries where we don't dominate. Electricity, Phones, etc... are all omnipresent and greatly outnumber the accomplishments of other peoples, we take comfort in this without realizing it, while other people feel intimidated. In many cases pointing out accomplishments to Arcetecture, Mathematics, and other things of other peoples involves going back centuries. While we argue Edison or Tesla, or what nation gets to claim Alexander Graham Bell given how he moved around, someone who isn't white has to deal with a modern world created entirely by other people and largely dominated by them (see the "who you get if you ask for who is in charge" bit above). The end result being that we are all racists just by existing and just don't realize it. Even pretensions of charity (helping the poor people of color in the ghettos) is a form of racism due to them needing the charity and the promotions used in order to get people to donate.... now before you argue it's BS and has been debunked heavily and ruthlessly, it's just a major philsophy.
"Rape Culture" is named to get attention for a specific point of view and make it harder to argue with due to the perception that if you argue against it "your supporting rape". In the end it pretty much involves the same kinds of arguements as the "Invisible Knapsack". The idea that if you say ask for the person in charge the vast majority of the time it will be a guy. This applies accross the spectrum to police, bosses (who you need to appeal to for a promotion), and simply who has control of most of the money and resources. Arguably as a whole men can make women do whatever they want through pressure, because they are holding all the cards and thus equality becomes a joke. Comparing the overall numbers more men tell women what to do, and are in a position of control than there are women doing the same. When compared to "The Invisible Knapsack" above those who follow this theory will argue that when it comes to minorities getting chances it's more likely to go to a guy than a girl. Thus arguements about being a minority AND a woman being a double strike.
It also expands into how attractive women have advantages, as long as they are attractive. Not so much because of literal rape, but because sex appeal can be exploited (eye candy, promotional value, etc...). An attractive woman can be on the top of the world as long as she remains that way, fingers being pointed to say the phenomena of "it girls", where an actress will stay popular as long as she's hot and seems to be availible, but if she has a couple of kids, gets old and puts on a few pounds, etc... her career falls through the floor.
Then there is of course the issue of what guys get away with (allegedly) that girls don't. The basic idea that it's socially accepted for a guy to be a drunken buffoon and get into all kinds of trouble, laughing it off with the guys, and then having life go on. Girls do that and it's somewhat differant.
Now again, this has been heavily analyzed and debunked on most levels, but it's still a popular theory.
Either "Invisible Knapsack" or "Rape Culture" can be used as an arguement to say that minorities or women should be given things, put in charge, etc... simply for the sake of equalizing things. As well as an excuse for why someone doesn't succeed (it was those evil people in the majority!), or as an attack to argue that someone doesn't deserve to be in charge or should be removed simply on the merits of being a member of the opposing group. Thus affirmitive action groups, feminists, and others who are all about power and wanting things for themselves and their groups will use the things as avenues of attack. Especially seeing as they play well to the right crowds, and the counter arguements and analysis take time that doesn't generally exist in a buzz clip or media statement. In today's media being right isn't always as important as having a point that can be made consicely in the two minutes your given for an interview on TV. It's far much easier to mention a couple of actresses not being popular anymore because they aren't as attractive as they once were, than to say point fingers at men (yesterday's sex symbols and male models) in the same boat, or make arguements about talent and pointing to the women who HAVE managed to hold onto
enduring entertainment careers.
Hopefully this helps, I know many people will disagree with me here, but this is pretty much the textbook definition of that term, and I mean that literally from when I took sociology many years ago and the term was first starting to appear (decades ago) and wasn't yet in popular use.
You can't summarize it in a paragraph? That looks very long and I just want to know how I'm supposedly part of rape culture for liking video games.PiCroft said:
I'm sorry, I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you even care (which you probably don't) then you'd endeavour to spend 5 minutes reading it, cos that's how long it took me.Helmholtz Watson said:
Also, you aren't part of rape culture because you play video games, jesus fucking christ.
Thanks for not helping out, but it seems that somebody was able to do exactly [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.378338.14804420] what I asked.PiCroft said:
I should point out that Therumancer thinks that the vitriol aimed at the woman in the OP is deserved because she needed to be prevented from exercising her free speech (because she's an attention-seeking extremist!), but hey, I'm sure he knows more on feminist topics than an actual feminist.Helmholtz Watson said:
I'd like to take this opportunity to point out to any lurkers that this is the reason why topics on feminism go nowhere. Anti-feminists don't want to learn or understand, what they want is soundbites and shitty deconstructions by people who think rape culture is an excuse for positive discrimination and underachievement.
I can see that he has a bias, but he still provided me with the information I asked without giving me a college essay to read. Know having a better understanding of the term rape culture, I'm disgusted that rape is being used as a metaphor. As for the idea that JerrytheBullfrog was pushing, its still nonsense.PiCroft said:
Hahaha holy fuck, I can't believe a guy who decided to take your (hilariously inept) word over a detailed explanation of a feminist had the cheek to complain that the article I offered was "too long"Therumancer said:
Anti-feminists: paragons of Reason.
You were never interested in learning, only having your pre-baked opinion validated. The fact you turned down an "essay" in favour of a guy with a bias you agreed with, a guy who then bloviated about short attention spans and going with the short, concise over the long but substantial, which is something you yourself then did, is comical in the extreme.Helmholtz Watson said:
I thought the "right" approach was to start an organized campaign to get the Kickstarter cancelled, ala Tentacle Bento? Then complain that PayPal doesn't bow to pressure as easily, after that group moves their funding drive to their own site?minuialear said:
Clearly what they should have done is take the WotC D&D approach and switch Shepard's gender with every shot. If PnP RPG books aren't a form of literature that's had bad dealings with arguments over pronouns, that I don't know what is.Legion said:
Interestingly, there are positions that can both think those misfits are, well, horrible people and think she's an idiot anyways. Or use the "trolls will be trolls, that's what you get for having any identifiable characteristics online" to view the misfits, and continue thinking she's an idiot for reasons that have nothing to do with Jews, female dogs, kitchens, or the lack of sandwiches.mirasiel said:
Should I point to the guy whose facebook being hacked was the source of the Fox "Hackers on Steroids" story about anonymous? Pretty sure when an anon gets into your anything account, the worst of the internet is soon to fall on your head. Whether what's between your legs is an innie or an outie is only vaguely relevant, and then only in the specific choice of language used against you.Oskuro said:
No, no it wasn't. There are of course several other laws that in total do essentially the same thing but in a lot more words, and often going so far as to give women special rights, benefits, or protections not offered men. I got the feeling that feminist lobbying groups decided that it was better to have a bunch of laws giving better benefits than merely equal would while still being able to use the ERA as "proof" of inequality under the law was a better position to be in. I've also read several on the anti-feminist side who are strong supporters of the ERA because they feel it could be used to remove those same gendered special protections, benefits, and privileges mentioned above -- that is to say that I've read MRAs who've claimed that passing the ERA would be a powerful stroke *against* feminism.Evan Waters said:
Tell that to Susan Brownmiller. I believe she was the one who was quoted writing something along the lines of all men engaging in a conscious effort to oppress all women by threatening them with rape, or something to that effect? I can get the quote if you'd like, it's from Against Our Will.Kahunaburger said:
You mean like the huge organized backlash that made SodaPopMini's Kickstarter be cancelled, and then felt that wasn't enough, but learned that PayPal is harder to sway.JerrytheBullfrog said:
So, any department that doesn't go out of it's way to find and talk about women is really a Men's Gender Studies department? Interesting.JerrytheBullfrog said:
As for Ada Lovelace, the only time her work was relevant, in History of Computing and in CS Elective: Ada (for why the language was given that name). Grace Hopper, on the other hand, got referred to in more classes than that, including History of Computing, Programming Language Concepts, Introduction to Computer Organization, and Introduction to Systems Programming -- you know, since she coined the term "debugging" (because in machines of that era, the problem often literally involved the removal of insects from the equipment) and did major work involving that whole high level languages thing (programmer for the first compiler and all). Her work was certainly more important from a practical perspective than that of Ada Lovelace was (who is primarily noteworthy for being the first programmer, for a machine that was never completed).
That's cheating, because the majority of forced sexual encounters are heterosexual in nature, and woman-on-man ones generally don't get counted as rape. The semi-recent CDC report on these things (again, I can look up the study if you'd like, but this is a long post and it's widely available) suggested that as far as recent rates of occurrence were concerned, women were being raped+"made to penetrate" at about the same rate as men. "Made to penetrate" is the category into which a woman forcing a man to have sexual intercourse using force, the threat of force, or while intoxicated, unconscious, or unable to consent is counted. What the numbers show is most forced sexual encounters are heterosexual, and that the most common male-as-victim scenario being counted as "not rape" skews the numbers.JerrytheBullfrog said:
What about by holding rape victims to the same standards of belief as any other crime? That is, not taking an accusation as de facto proof of guilt, requiring corroborating evidence to demonstrate that the allegation is true beyond a reasonable doubt? Or is it rape culture to admit that people are not perfect beacons of truth, that some people lie and falsely accuse, and that rape is not somehow magically exempt from this? Look at the Brian Banks case, or have a perusal of cotwa.info for some examples (it's a blog whose primary focus is false rape and DV accusations, and who holds a pretty reasonable position on them, if you actually read it rather than making up what it *obviously* says because it doesn't uphold accusation=guilt).PiCroft said: