Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[Icehearted]

Hahaha good one, you almost had me for a second... wait, you're serious? Ok, just re-read your own groundless accusations of misandry and invalidating men based on nothing more than some woman's desire to talk about stereotypes she's observed.

Pot, meet kettle...

That oversimplifies the discussion, not to mention that it's a very permissive attitude toward a very one-sided subject.

Quite a reaction, loaded with even more vitriol, hypocrisy, and needless hyperbolic hostility. Thank you kindly for proving my point.

Well I apologize, but this debate is really grating on my nerves.

Also how exactly have I proven your point? Can you elaborate?
(No hostility, I just really want to know).

Here's one:
Me: "The vitriol has to be coming from someplace,"
You: "Mean spirited women hating virgins I'm guessing."

Oh, and that underlined portion in the quote goes back to what I just quoted of myself. The hard feelings were already there for a lot of people, this whole kickstarter episode was just a nasty little catalyst, little because it's one person's opinion, nasty because of the shitstorm that one person's opinion has unleashed (I didn't say start, like I said "The vitriol has to be coming from someplace,". The gender issue in gaming has been blown up by the press, and this is just the latest backlash.

I'm neither for or against, I just see it as hypocritical. Until men are walking around in speedos making money by peddling sex at E3 booths, or selling their precious time for the same kind of money women are on gamecrush, or have entire magazines and websites dedicated to "guys of gaming", women have nothing to legitimately complain about because they are doing it to themselves as much or more so than men.

 

[Eamar]

Hahaha good one, you almost had me for a second... wait, you're serious? Ok, just re-read your own groundless accusations of misandry and invalidating men based on nothing more than some woman's desire to talk about stereotypes she's observed.

Pot, meet kettle...

not to mention that it's a very permissive attitude toward a very one-sided subject.

Oh lord, please tell me you're not another one of those people who thinks that anyone who identifies with feminism is sexist? It's been said before and no doubt it'll be said again: it is not inherently wrong for someone to focus on one group. You can have people focusing on women's issues, people focusing on men's issues, and people focusing on both equally. Supporting one cause does not imply ignorance of or lack of support for other causes.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Quite a reaction, loaded with even more vitriol, hypocrisy, and needless hyperbolic hostility. Thank you kindly for proving my point.

People get angry when faced with baseless accusations, misogyny, rape apologism, and silencing of topics that warrant legitimate discussion.

Who knew?

 

[Eamar]

Hahaha good one, you almost had me for a second... wait, you're serious? Ok, just re-read your own groundless accusations of misandry and invalidating men based on nothing more than some woman's desire to talk about stereotypes she's observed.

Pot, meet kettle...

not to mention that it's a very permissive attitude toward a very one-sided subject.

Oh lord, please tell me you're not another one of those people who thinks that anyone who identifies with feminism is sexist? It's been said before and no doubt it'll be said again: it is not inherently wrong for someone to focus on one group. You can have people focusing on women's issues, people focusing on men's issues, and people focusing on both equally. Supporting one cause does not imply ignorance of or lack of support for other causes.

Then feminism should stop saying it's for equality and just say they're a special interest group like the NAACP or something.

The end result is equality, how is that hard to understand? Feminism focuses on women, but it works to dispel conventions and stereotypes that harm both genders. It can't be compared to an organisation like that since there is no official feminist society or anything.

 

[Nulmas]

Well, after watching some of her previous videos, I've come to a simple conclusion:

How exactly can someone point out the "straw feminist" trope and then proceed to play one herself so well in some of her videos?

Granted, most of the times she does it seem to come out of either ignorance on the subject or just due to missing the point, but she still manages to pull it off with an alarming degree of success.

All the abuse she took was unwaranted, but hey, I guess it paid off in the end.

I'm honestly interested in watching her series, though. However, I believe she has to do better research. Some of the examples pointed out on her videos are misinterpreted and, sometimes, outright wrong.

Still, that doesn't mean that the problem isn't there. Hell, as mentioned before, the problem doesn't even apply just to women. But you have to start somewhere.

 

[Eamar]

Hahaha good one, you almost had me for a second... wait, you're serious? Ok, just re-read your own groundless accusations of misandry and invalidating men based on nothing more than some woman's desire to talk about stereotypes she's observed.

Pot, meet kettle...

not to mention that it's a very permissive attitude toward a very one-sided subject.

Oh lord, please tell me you're not another one of those people who thinks that anyone who identifies with feminism is sexist? It's been said before and no doubt it'll be said again: it is not inherently wrong for someone to focus on one group. You can have people focusing on women's issues, people focusing on men's issues, and people focusing on both equally. Supporting one cause does not imply ignorance of or lack of support for other causes.

Then feminism should stop saying it's for equality and just say they're a special interest group like the NAACP or something.

The end result is equality, how is that hard to understand? Feminism focuses on women, but it works to dispel conventions and stereotypes that harm both genders. It can't be compared to an organisation like that since there is no official feminist society or anything.

There are stereotypes that only hurt men and issues that only negatively effect men, if feminism never gets to them you can't say they're trying to vanquish sexism.

There are stereotypes that only hurt Asian people and issues that only negatively effect Asian people, the Civil Rights campaigners never got round to them so you can't say they were trying to vanquish racism.

Feminism focuses on women. Good feminists also care about men's problems, these problems are just not necessarily labelled as "feminist", because they're not about women. Once again, why is it so unacceptable to focus on one group? Why does focusing on women mean that feminists can't care about men?

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Ok so while i slept this progressed even worse than it was before. Now i hate sarkeesian. I think shes conning people & that this project will not need any more funding than she already has, anything she needs she will already be able to buy, & that her only intent is to continue preaching to the choir. She will accomplish nothing because she set out with that goal. I hate the woman.

Now, she is not a feminist. She is an internet radical. Making like minded fools feel right. Everything is a conspiracy by men, women are thrown under the bus at every turn, & she does all this in the most pretentious, cold, arrogant, and hateful way possible. Now remember that she is targeting games. When games & the communities surrounding them are target it it is ALWAYS done with no intent of being impartial. She says she is about to attack the hobby of gaming with intent to make it look bad. If gamers did rise up and shout her down it would be justifiable. But no. Everyone copied comments from youtube and took it as indicative of the gaming community. Well let me get at least one thing clear as possible. Gaming has no one community. Its a broad spectrum with no central group. Just like youtube has no central hate community.

Youtubes hate community spans a wide range of people.

Spoiler

People that hate religion
People that hate people that hate religion
People that hate injustice
people that hate injustice as they perceive it
people that hate youtube commenters
people that hate those guys
people that hate gay people
people that hate people that demonize gay people
people that hate nerds
people that hate those that try to pass themselves off as dorky in order to make money from youtube
people that hate vlogs
people that hate vlogs based on the gender of the host
people that hate warcraft
people that hate those that hate warcraft
people that hate indie games
people that hate AAA games
people that hate steam
people that hate bad news
people that hate GOOD news
people that hate conservatives
people that hate liberals
people that hate equality
people that hate inequality
people that hate feminism
people that hate the government
people that hate laws
people that hate guns
people that hate technology(yes they exist on youtube)
people that hate TV
people that hate nintendo/sony/microsoft/etc
people that hate walkthroughs
people that hate letsplays
people that hate first impressions

people that hate anything can be found inside the realm of youtube hate so don't act like it is an indication of jack other than yotubes status as roaming area.

I love your assumptions. They're really kind of cool, and totally not reactionary and misogynist at all.

Except it's opposite day.

How is she trying to attack gaming? She is a gamer. She is making videos about something about gaming and gaming culture that bothers her and that she wants to examine. That is not an attack on gaming.

The only conspiracy here is the ACTUAL COORDINATED CONSPIRACY TO SHUT HER DOWN. Vandalizing wikipedia pages, getting her youtube videos flagged as terrorism, getting Kickstarter to cancel the project.

This goes so far beyond YouTube comments you have no idea.

 

[m0ng00se]

(Also, false rape accusations do occur. They're estimated at about 5% - pretty much exactly the level of false accusations for other violent crimes. So why do we automatically doubt rape victims so much?)

Probably because it's harder to retroactively turn a decision you later regret into being the victim of any other violent crime than turning an unpleasant or shameful sexual encounter into a rape. Or at least making it sound that way to your peers so they don't think you're a slut or whatever. I can't speak for statistics but most of us have been to high school and college and I'd wager we've all heard something like that at least once. I've got friends who are seriously concerned about this happening to them because you never know if somebody's gonna get hit with particularly nasty post-coital regret when you meet them at a bar.

In other news, this captcha system is horrifying. I'm given a brand and have to describe it instead of actually doing a real captcha. Interesting idea but pretty horrific.

 

[Schadrach]

My point: There's no conspiracy of all men going on to suppress all women, there are many factors involved, most of them involving religion, or own choices. A mono-explanation or a conspiracy theory is folly.

Yeah, and the notion of feminism as a conspiracy theory about how all men are trying to suppress all women is a pretty classic right-wing talking point. It doesn't resemble actual feminism.

Tell that to Susan Brownmiller. I believe she was the one who was quoted writing something along the lines of all men engaging in a conscious effort to oppress all women by threatening them with rape, or something to that effect? I can get the quote if you'd like, it's from Against Our Will.

Let's see if you can find the logical fallacy here:

A is a B.

A is C.

Therefore, all B are C.

Let's actually fill in those blanks.

Susan Brownmiller is a noted feminist author whose book Against Our Will is still often quoted when discussing the topic of rape and frequently has a place in Women's Studies programs.

This book states amongst it's claims that, and this time I quote, rape is "a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."

Therefore, a statement from a notable feminist author in a book that is commonly taught in Women's Studies departments might potentially be a good example of a feminist statement?

I know, I know, "feminism is not a monolith." As I stated in another thread, by certain definitions of "feminist", I'm a feminist (in that I believe that men and women should have identical rights and responsibilities when possible, and equivalent rights and responsibilities where identical ones are literally impossible). There are also definitions of feminist that explicitly exclude me no matter what I believe because I have dangly genitals. Others that wouldn't claim me because I think holding women to lesser standards than men in some fields is sexist.

Snip

Last I checked, there was no campaign to vilify the makers of Tentacle Bento by editing hardcore pornography into their Wikipedia page, and they didn't get threats of death or rape. It was fighting against a vile game that trivialized rape, and Kickstarter didn't want that sort of thing associated with its name, as it has every right to.

You have the right to free speech, and I have the right to speak out against your speech.

(Also, false rape accusations do occur. They're estimated at about 5% - pretty much exactly the level of false accusations for other violent crimes. So why do we automatically doubt rape victims so much?)

Let's be honest here, Kickstarter didn't give a damn about the tentacle hentai flavored, non-explicit but innuendo laden card matching game until there was a feminist backlash against it (there was also a push to get PayPal to freeze their account as well so they couldn't fund the project from their own website, but PayPal didn't roll over). No WP vandalism, although not having a Wikipedia page probably doesn't hurt on that front.

Yes, you are of course right on your free speech comment. Oddly enough, that could be used as an argument in favor of the horrific troll hordes that beset this project. So let me ask you this in return: Does that mean I have to right to use my speech to attempt to forcibly silence yours? Because that is precisely what the troll hordes are doing (albeit terribly ineffectively), and that is also what the feminist hordes did to SodaPopMini (to much greater effect, in part by being less, well, trollish and immature in their campaign to kill it with fire).

Do we? What other crimes do we pursue and sometimes convict on nothing other than victim testimony? What other crime can you say "That 51 year old man committed this crime against me 36 years ago when he was babysitting", and get a conviction with no other evidence (more importantly, how would you defend against that?)? Or for a better example, imagine the person you lost your virginity with (if such a person exists) decided tomorrow to claim that encounter was rape/sexual assault (depending on the genders involved, since forced intercourse isn't rape if it's female-on-male). How would you defend yourself? As far as I can tell, the only answers are video every sexual encounter, and don't stick it in the crazy (always good advice).

Rape cases need to be thoroughly investigated, tried if there's evidence, held to the same goddamned standards as every other criminal case, if there's a finding of guilt, punished appropriately, and if there's evidence that it's a false accusation, then that needs to be thoroughly investigated, tried if there's evidence, held to the same goddamned standards as every other criminal case, and if there's a finding of guilt, punished appropriately (and in this case, the punishment is far too lenient for the harm it does, being usually about the equivalent of a speeding ticket -- something like some jail time and a spot on our good friend the sex offender registry would be more appropriate [yes, I am saying falsely accusing someone of a sex crime should itself be a sex crime]).

Likewise, I think the media should be barred from naming either defendant or victim in such a case (as opposed to the current practice of anonymizing the victim and plastering the defendant's name everywhere, thus effectively ruining his reputation even if innocent). If the defendant is found anything other than guilty, I think the defendant's name should not be released. If there's a false accusation case, I think a finding of guilt should involve releasing the false accuser's name, but letting the falsely accused remain anonymous.

Typically, the argument against pursuing false accusations is that doing so would make it harder to come forward for real victims, but I believe the opposite -- the ease with which false accusations occur and the unlikelihood that one will ever be punished for doing so makes it easier to make the jump to a false accusation. Likewise, there needs to be more effort made to differentiate "unprovable" cases from "false accusations" -- in the former no one but victim and accused ever know the truth for sure (not guilty verdict), in the latter, the truth is known.

 

[Kahunaburger]

My point: There's no conspiracy of all men going on to suppress all women, there are many factors involved, most of them involving religion, or own choices. A mono-explanation or a conspiracy theory is folly.

Yeah, and the notion of feminism as a conspiracy theory about how all men are trying to suppress all women is a pretty classic right-wing talking point. It doesn't resemble actual feminism.

Tell that to Susan Brownmiller. I believe she was the one who was quoted writing something along the lines of all men engaging in a conscious effort to oppress all women by threatening them with rape, or something to that effect? I can get the quote if you'd like, it's from Against Our Will.

Let's see if you can find the logical fallacy here:

A is a B.

A is C.

Therefore, all B are C.

Let's actually fill in those blanks.

Susan Brownmiller is a noted feminist author whose book Against Our Will is still often quoted when discussing the topic of rape and frequently has a place in Women's Studies programs.

This book states amongst it's claims that, and this time I quote, rape is "a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."

Therefore, a statement from a notable feminist author in a book that is commonly taught in Women's Studies departments might potentially be a good example of a feminist statement?

I know, I know, "feminism is not a monolith." As I stated in another thread, by certain definitions of "feminist", I'm a feminist (in that I believe that men and women should have identical rights and responsibilities when possible, and equivalent rights and responsibilities where identical ones are literally impossible). There are also definitions of feminist that explicitly exclude me no matter what I believe because I have dangly genitals. Others that wouldn't claim me because I think holding women to lesser standards than men in some fields is sexist.

Yeah, it's almost like the notion of "feminism" being a monolithic ideology that can be categorically demonized is a right-wing talking point.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Actually, it would. Men can be raped too, you know. It's conflating sexual aggression with dominance. I beat you, ergo you suck my dick. But it's also just as common to, if you're against a guy, talk about "HEY I FUCKED YOUR MOM." Ad mominem, so to speak - but when against a woman, you don't go for her mom, you go directly for her.

Why can't you talk shit about their actual skills? "God, you're terrible at this game, learn to shoot." Why does it have to be "I'm going to rape you in the ass, boy!"?

.....

Spoiler: Wait...your seriously saying that people should be considerate when they're shit talking/taking smack?

The silencing of a woman trying to make a video to examine and educate about harmful stereotypes using *sexually violent threats* is rape culture. And unfortunately, it is prevalent in videogame culture.

I'm not one of those YouTubers making the threats, I'm not asking her to not focus on how women are depicted in video games, I'm just asking her to use some of her kickstarter money to have an episode on how men are depicted as well.

What you're doing is the equivalent of showing up to a discussion about violence against women (in real life), and saying "Hey! Men get raped, too! Why aren't you talking about that?"

Yes, men get raped too. (Yes, there are harmful stereotypes about men.)

Yes, it is important that we have discussions about it. (Yes, we need to discuss them.)

But it's interrupting the conversation that the women are trying to have about their own sex and gender, and trying to make it about men.

No, its asking for the discussion to be expanded and talk about women and men. Its asking to focus on all rape victims regardless of the rape victims gender.

It should not be their job to make it about us. It should be our job.

Again, if I go by your definition of feminist(that their main goal is for gender equality) then it is their "job" to bring up gender issues that men face. If they really are about gender equality, then they should bring up issues that both genders face.

Can you really not understand that? If you want desperately for this to exist (and I think it should), why not fund your own kickstarter? And then, nobody's saying you have to talk about female characters, either.

Again, if she is a feminist who is for gender equality, I see no reason why she should not focus on men's issues as well. I'm not advocating that she doesn't focus on issues that women face, but that she also focuses on issues that men face. I'm asking her to expand her subject matter, not only focus on issues that one gender faces.

 

[socialistmath]

Do we? What other crimes do we pursue and sometimes convict on nothing other than victim testimony? What other crime can you say "That 51 year old man committed this crime against me 36 years ago when he was babysitting", and get a conviction with no other evidence (more importantly, how would you defend against that?)? Or for a better example, imagine the person you lost your virginity with (if such a person exists) decided tomorrow to claim that encounter was rape/sexual assault (depending on the genders involved, since forced intercourse isn't rape if it's female-on-male). How would you defend yourself? As far as I can tell, the only answers are video every sexual encounter, and don't stick it in the crazy (always good advice).

"B-b-but what about people accused of rape!?" Really? You bring up bullshit about false rape accusations? Do you have any idea of how statistically insignificant those accusations are? Do you not understand how much bullshit a woman goes through when she dares to accuse a man of rape? Why would any woman want to go through all that?

Rape cases need to be thoroughly investigated, tried if there's evidence, held to the same goddamned standards as every other criminal case, if there's a finding of guilt, punished appropriately, and if there's evidence that it's a false accusation, then that needs to be thoroughly investigated, tried if there's evidence, held to the same goddamned standards as every other criminal case,

Regardless of whatever men's rights activists vomit out of their putrid mouths, rape already is held to those standards.

[yes, I am saying falsely accusing someone of a sex crime should itself be a sex crime]).

You're mentally ill if you seriously think this. Seriously? You equate the false accusation of rape to rape itself?

Likewise, I think the media should be barred from naming either defendant or victim in such a case (as opposed to the current practice of anonymizing the victim and plastering the defendant's name everywhere, thus effectively ruining his reputation even if innocent).

"Think of the poor rapists' reputation!"

If the defendant is found anything other than guilty, I think the defendant's name should not be released. If there's a false accusation case, I think a finding of guilt should involve releasing the false accuser's name, but letting the falsely accused remain anonymous.

Let me guess, you want their name made public so they can get what they deserve, right?

To be completely honest, none of the responses she's gotten are really that surprising to me. Most boys and men are incapable of understanding, or even caring about, problems that women face unless they are buttressed against problems that men face. You see it in many of the replies here: "what about the men?" "what about tropes that harm men?" etc. etc.. A woman is never allowed to say something is harmful for women, unless, of course, she mentions how it also harms men (which is clearly the most important part). It's almost as if men don't see women as people.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Actually, it would. Men can be raped too, you know. It's conflating sexual aggression with dominance. I beat you, ergo you suck my dick. But it's also just as common to, if you're against a guy, talk about "HEY I FUCKED YOUR MOM." Ad mominem, so to speak - but when against a woman, you don't go for her mom, you go directly for her.

Why can't you talk shit about their actual skills? "God, you're terrible at this game, learn to shoot." Why does it have to be "I'm going to rape you in the ass, boy!"?

.....

Spoiler: Wait...your seriously saying that people should be considerate when they're shit talking/taking smack?

The silencing of a woman trying to make a video to examine and educate about harmful stereotypes using *sexually violent threats* is rape culture. And unfortunately, it is prevalent in videogame culture.

I'm not one of those YouTubers making the threats, I'm not asking her to not focus on how women are depicted in video games, I'm just asking her to use some of her kickstarter money to have an episode on how men are depicted as well.

What you're doing is the equivalent of showing up to a discussion about violence against women (in real life), and saying "Hey! Men get raped, too! Why aren't you talking about that?"

Yes, men get raped too. (Yes, there are harmful stereotypes about men.)

Yes, it is important that we have discussions about it. (Yes, we need to discuss them.)

But it's interrupting the conversation that the women are trying to have about their own sex and gender, and trying to make it about men.

No, its asking for the discussion to be expanded and talk about women and men. Its asking to focus on all rape victims regardless of the rape victims gender.

It should not be their job to make it about us. It should be our job.

Again, if I go by your definition of feminist(that their main goal is for gender equality) then it is their "job" to bring up gender issues that men face. If they really are about gender equality, then they should bring up issues that both genders face.

Can you really not understand that? If you want desperately for this to exist (and I think it should), why not fund your own kickstarter? And then, nobody's saying you have to talk about female characters, either.

Again, if she is a feminist who is for gender equality, I see no reason why she should not focus on men's issues as well. I'm not advocating that she doesn't focus on issues that women face, but that she also focuses on issues that men face. I'm asking her to expand her subject matter, not only focus on issues that one gender faces.

-You ask for evidence of rape culture in gaming.
-I give you an example.
-You brush it off as just normal shit talk.

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM. It shouldn't BE normal or acceptable to threaten rape under ANY circumstances. That you're arguing that "hey it's just shit talking" is the *very fucking definition of rape culture.* Jesus christ.

And feminists are for gender equality VIA THE ADVOCACY OF WOMENS' ISSUES. Because they need it a lot more than we men do.

Holy shit, how are you not getting this? How is this such a hard concept to understand? She isn't focusing on men's issues because A.) she doesn't want to in this project, B.) she has no obligations to, and C.) arguing that she shouldn't be able to talk about womens' issues without discussing mens' issues to is disruptive, derailing, and silences the whole discussion.

I'm done here. Take the blinders off please and actually LISTEN to what you're being told. Don't just hear, listen. And think.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

so this is what being in a canoe with only one paddle is like

OT: how do we solve the issues that we face as a community if we cant even, after 24 pages of forum posts even agree what they are and if they even exist. Is it even worth it ?