Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[Smeatza]

If someone is violently unwilling to have their opinion challenged by something as utterly milquetoast as the proposition "Analysis: videogames as a medium has sexism issues regarding women" then that isn't the problem of the person providing the viewpoint (well it kind of is, but the moral onus isn't on them to water down their views to not offend shitbags, but for the shit bags to not be shitbags).

What is the point in the videos if not educate and appeal to those who currently see sexist ideals as acceptable? Or make those that unintentionally support sexist ideals aware that they are doing so?
If their sole purpose is just a big pat on the back for those who are against sexism then it seems like an exercise in futility to me.

Also, the potential viewers aren't literally divided only into "I already know all this stuff, I am watching it because it agrees with me" and "I hate femininsts and all they stand for, I will never watch this"

No but her approach will have put off many otherwise reasonable people who feel their favourite hobby (or games within that hobby) are being unfairly singled out.

Don't get me wrong, I admire her motivations and agree with what she had to say in the kickstarter video (for the most part). And I realise that people are donating to what she has put forward, so there's obviously a demand for it.

It's just that whenever people try to address this issue, from either side, you get such a barrage of sensationalist fervor that it's hard to take either side seriously. So whenever I see a project like this, where a bias is apparent from the word go, and a single type of media is singled out from all others. The lost potential does disappoint me.

Like I say, perhaps I shouldn't expect documentaries to meet journalistic standards, but as a factual production, I do.

 

[mirasiel]

I am not defending them.
Re-read my post.

I wasn't actually talking to/about you but re-reading your post, actually you do seem to me to be defending or at least justifying the behavior of trolls.

 

[Danzavare]

I realise feminism is a social/political thing, but I still expect factual productions to be up to certain standards of journalism. Maybe that's just me.
She's preaching to the choir. And if she were to take and objective point of view she would be much more effective in getting her message to those who actually need to hear it and pay heed.

I hate to interrupt but what do you mean by 'objective point of view'? I understand the idea of fact checking insofar as physical realities (Release dates, platform, etc) but I don't understand what you mean by an objective point of view.

Ethnography and historiography are just two academic fields that deal with the inherent subjectivity of texts. Your choice in words, subject matter and selection of evidence all alter the information you present. Even science reports are marked by their conscious decision to use 'scientific writing conventions' to present their information, and tend to have a particular aim or hypothesis in mind (At the necessary exclusion of others). Subjectivity doesn't negate the value of a discussion, it's an inherent part of it.

To keep to the topic, how do you find the objective facts behind the social implications of games? Sure, you can work toward an intuitive and intelligent interpretation of a game and how this may sit with its broader context (As I imagine is her aim), but I can't see how you can pull out an objective account or point of view from it.

When you say people who need to hear it, do you mean the ones in your other post?

The bottom line is that her series of videos will change nothing.
Because everyone who may be supporting (either intentionally or unintentionally) sexist ideals in the gaming industry will never watch it.
You can see from the overwhelming negative response that many males feel vilified by this so called documentary. Do you think that they will even watch it? let alone take it seriously? when they feel like they are being demonised?
If she were to look at things from a fair, objective point of view, rather than making her own bias blatantly obvious from the start, then this might of had a chance of reaching an audience who actually needs to see it. As it stands, only people who are already aware of the issue and have picked her "side" of the debate will watch it.

I think you're forgetting all the people who don't have a strong opinion either way. It's perfectly plausible to think that the video is aimed to educate and inform people who either aren't aware of the issue, haven't given it adequate thought or know the issue, but don't yet grasp its serious implications for gaming and gaming's place in society. I'd hate to think how difficult progress would be if the only way to it was through stubborn minorities (In any issues there are always people who will never see reason). As far as getting many people to see it I'm thinking it'll be more a marketing problem than anything else.

In all honesty I'm not sure I'll agree with everything she will say, but I think it's definitely a debate worth having.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

"OH NO! PEOPLE ARE BEING MEAN AND WACIST ON THE INTERWEBS!!!" You might as well link to any given thread on fucking 4chan and call that "Journalism".

I frankly can't fucking believe that this article was approved.

I dunno, I think a huge, ORGANIZED backlash that includes mass reporting of her videos to YouTube as hate speech and defamation of her Wikipedia page is actually pretty newsworthy.

And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

I've never seen someone source the 1 in 4 rape stat.

And I've never seen anyone source the stupid claim that rapists think all other men are also rapists, and rape jokes reinforce that.

Sources for the 1/4 claim listed here [http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php].

1994? Oh so it's just really out of date now. Look at how low rape rates have fallen

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm

Rape jokes are bullshit anyway. OH NOES WE CANT MAKE LIGHT OF ONE OF THE WORST THINGS A PERSON CAN GO THROUGH BAWWWWW

No it's more like "WAHH we hate this kind of dark humor, quick make up some bullshit about how it's harmful so we can justify a campaign against it"

Homework does not entail reading biased as fuck people who already agree with you.

He quite clearly already knows what the smurfette principle is, but he disagrees with you so you gotta call him a sexist.

Homework DOES entail reading stuff from people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject and have thought about it more than you ever will. Knowing *what* the Smurfette Principle is and knowing *why* it is wrong and *why* his usage of it as a defense there was fucked up are different things.

Why can't you just explain it or link to the explanations yourself at the very least? This is basically "you do the research for my claims"

But please, by all means continue to be the rape apologist.

A rape apologist? If you don't know the difference between fictional jokes and actual rape ... you're a probably a danger to others and should be monitored at all times.

1.) Less than half of rapes ever go reported. Things do not magically fix themselves in a decade and a half. (Also, the sources are all at the bottom.)

2.) Got it. So having your pwecious widdle jokes is more important to you than the comfort and safety of people who have been through one of the most traumatic experiences possible. One in six women in the united states are raped. (The 1/4 stat, looking at it, is about college students.) *You know someone who has been raped*, odds are. And how do you think your pwecious wape jokes make her feel? Oh, what's that? You didn't think of that? great job.

3.) It is not my responsibility to educate you. Become a better person.

4.) Yep, a rape apologist. Again, read the "rape culture" article. Promoting a culture that trivializes rape, even in little ways, allows that culture to thrive, and subsequently makes it more likely that women will be abused. Sexual assault and rape DO NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.

...uh..lol. Please explain to me how astrophysics is a Men's Gender Studies department, or how geology is a Men's Gender Studies department.

Because like most (all?) scientific departments, they tend to focus exclusively on the contributions of male scientists, with any work by women brushed under the table. How many times do you learn about Ada Lovelace in CompSci?

So in your opinion, feminism is for women's equality and if they help men its a plus but not it's primary intention, correct? If that is how you view feminism, then your right to say that she shouldn't be expected to also focus on male gender issues. However, if I have misread this and your saying feminism is about gender equality, then I see no reason why she shouldn't devote time to male gender issues in video games as well.

Strawman argument. Feminism is about gender equality in its ultimate point. However, since women are the marginalized sex, it is more concerned with their rights and issues because *they have further to go*.

Screaming ABOUT TEH WEMONZ doesn't do much either besides create really long escapist threads.

It educates. It makes people think about things they don't question due to their privilege. That's the most important part. Way more than crying about perceived inequality when we're already a lot more equal.

Here's an interesting study from... a year ago? Two years? I don't remember - In a classroom/business environment, if men and women speak out exactly 50/50, where half the conversation is from women and half from men, men will perceive it as women "dominating" the conversation. They only think it's equal when it falls down to somewhere from 30-40% on the womens' part. Similarly, a group of people where exactly half are men and half are women will be perceived by the men as being mostly women.

We see equality as being unequal for us because we are so used to being the default.

snip

The article was crap, apparently rape culture doesn't have to have rape involved? Then it isn't rape culture!

>The Point

>Your Head

The entire point of the article is that rape and sexual assault *do not exist in a vacuum.* There is a culture around us that enables it, that encourages it however subtly - by questioning rape victims when we wouldn't, say, doubt the word of someone that he was mugged.

To that end, one can promote rape culture without being a rapist. Without ever actually mentioning rape. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

 

[Smeatza]

I am not defending them.
Re-read my post.

I wasn't actually talking to/about you but re-reading your post, actually you do seem to me to be defending or at least justifying the behavior of trolls.

My apologies then.
I'll spell it out anyway. As unjust as their responses are it shows that a number of people who are part of the problem will become instantly defensive when directly attacked. In spite of the valid points presented to them.

 

[Caligulove]

Boy, that escalated quickly.

I'm always amazed at how a woman talking about anything regarding gender roles or portrayal of women will be overcome by "nazi feminism **** kitchen slave" vitriol before a full sentence or thesis can be stated. There are valid questions here to be asked before giving a donation to her (as with any kickstarter) but they're all missed by knee-jerk douchebaggery and "hilarious" sexist jokes.

The internet is just a cesspit sometimes. Lots of sad, pitiful people that have serious issues with women.

 

[PiCroft]

What is the point in the videos if not educate and appeal to those who currently see sexist ideals as acceptable? Or make those that unintentionally support sexist ideals aware that they are doing so?
If their sole purpose is just a big pat on the back for those who are against sexism then it seems like an exercise in futility to me.

As I've said before, if someone won't watch a video because it contradicts what they want to believe, that isn't the problem of the video maker.

Also, as I've said before, the world isn't divided into ardent sexists who won't watch it and fervent anti-sexists who will. That isn't how the world or viewership or documentaries work. I have no idea why you are convinced there is literally not one person who will watch it who isn't already decided one way or the other. She (the documentary maker) has stated her previous materials have been used by parents, in classrooms and by charities and other organizations to discuss gender issues, this will be no different only hopefully with higher production values and more solid research.

 

[minuialear]

So whenever I see a project like this, where a bias is apparent from the word go, and a single type of media is singled out from all others. The lost potential does disappoint me.

Staying within one medium is a perfectly reasonable way to want to focus a discussion on a broader topic. Otherwise the discussion becomes too broad for the average person to keep the overarching point in mind (an issue that's even a problem when focusing on just video games, due to their variety; but at least keeping it to one medium limits that somewhat). Considering this is a very complex issue, breaking it up and examining cross-sections, rather than trying to examine the entirety of human existence, is much more effective at driving one's points across.

Plus, the video game community as a whole (i.e., generally, not entirely) tends to be a lot less open to gender discussions that communities for other media (in part because it's a lot younger and hasn't had equal time to deal with the issue), so it makes sense to target the video game community for this particular phenomenon, rather than to target books or films.

The other ting is that any man who's had a girlfriend or wife, knows the feeling of them encroaching on your territory, your place of silence and focus. When girls like Anita make an accusing video like that, men take it personally, because it's another one of those annoying cries for attention(Not saying it is, I'm saying it LOOKS like it).

If you feel as though your significant other's desire to share hobbies with you is "enroaching on your territory," that says something about you more than it says about him/her.

Also based on your ridiculous amount of bias, I don't think you're qualified to indicate why men take it personally. That is the most ridiculous claim I've ever seen.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Well, what's there to say? People are sick and tired of extremist feminists making up myths about oppression and conspiracies against women, just to prevent having to acknowledge the unspeakable, namely that women themselves make their role, accept their role themselves, and actively work to reinforce that 'role' constantly.

Or in short: doing whatever the radical feminists are angry about, to themselves.

On a related note, ironically enough, modern feminism believes that men are more than capable of transcending these institutionalised roles to which they are expected to adhere. Feminism actually acknowledges the agency of men, and their status as equals.
And yet feminism is accused of misandry.

Which is extremely, shockingly dumb a point of view because the enemy is not 'the men', but religion. It's religion which preaches taboo on all sex and the blame of any sexual transgression with women. It's also religion which teaches women are inferior, so probably not as entitled to the integrity of their body as men.

Quite frankly, merely speaking of feminist theories of 'rape culture' is deeply offensive and rude. You're insulting half the human population, while ignoring the real problem. I myself have uncovered sexual abuse on two occasions (yay for growing up in retarded Christian villages) and the shit that has cost me over the course of years... It cost so very much, money, time, emotionally... And in comes some twat who claims that I'm part of a 'rape culture' because of my gender.

Let me be short about that: Anyone who believes in 'rape culture' theories lacks any form of decency, and should be ignored.

Less rant'ish: I've always wondered what it is why feminists twist and bend themselves into such corners to find a culprit while they don't dare to attack religion at all, while it's no doubt their main enemy.

Wow, someone else who doesn't understand rape culture.

1.) Being a guy does not make you part of rape culture by default. Your actions do. Many guys are part of rape culture. Many make a conscious effort to not be.

2.) Women can perpetuate rape culture as well. Again, rape culture is not just "all men create rape culture," it's an intersecting dynamic of how society as a whole acts.

3.) Rape (as in, actual rape, not just rape culture) is overwhelmingly performed by men (90+%) against women.

4.) What feminists do you know? There are plenty of atheist feminists. I'd even say that MOST feminists acknowledge that religious systems are one of the key proponents of patriarchy. Since, well, they are.

That you somehow believes feminists don't attack religion and that you believe that rape culture is just a male thing shows that you don't understand jack shit about the topic, sorry. Educate yourself.

 

[RabbidKuriboh]

ugh feminism was relevant when women didn't have civil rights equal to men,now that they do it isn't

Do they? When did this happen?

There's not even an equivalent of the Civil Rights Act for women. The Equal Rights Amendment was passed but never ratified.

Not an American,sorry in my country they do.

And please specify what exactly women aren't allowed to do in the states that makes them 2nd class citzens?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Because like most (all?) scientific departments, they tend to focus exclusively on the contributions of male scientists, with any work by women brushed under the table. How many times do you learn about Ada Lovelace in CompSci?

I didn't ask you about compsci, I asked you about astrophysics and geology. Tell me how the study of rocks is a gender studies department. I didn't realize that learning about sedimentary and metamorphic rocks could be a basis for form a gender preference.

Strawman argument.

No, I'm just trying to grasp your idea of feminism.

Feminism is about gender equality in its ultimate point. However, since women are the marginalized sex, it is more concerned with their rights and issues because *they have further to go*.

So then I was wrong before when I described your idea of feminism being about the equality of women, you believe that the ultimate goal of feminism is about gender equality, correct? If so, then the women should focus on how men are depicted in games as well.

It educates. It makes people think about things they don't question due to their privilege. That's the most important part. Way more than crying about perceived inequality when we're already a lot more equal.

Really? It seems from looking at this thread that it just irritates people.

The entire point of the article is that rape and sexual assault *do not exist in a vacuum.* There is a culture around us that enables it, that encourages it however subtly - by questioning rape victims when we wouldn't, say, doubt the word of someone that he was mugged.

To that end, one can promote rape culture without being a rapist. Without ever actually mentioning rape. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

Then the point is shit. Me playing video games doesn't promote rape anymore than it promotes grand theft or genocide. You sound like Fox News right now.

 

[Trekkie]

Well, what's there to say? People are sick and tired of extremist feminists making up myths about oppression and conspiracies against women, just to prevent having to acknowledge the unspeakable, namely that women themselves make their role, accept their role themselves, and actively work to reinforce that 'role' constantly.

Or in short: doing whatever the radical feminists are angry about, to themselves.

On a related note, ironically enough, modern feminism believes that men are more than capable of transcending these institutionalised roles to which they are expected to adhere. Feminism actually acknowledges the agency of men, and their status as equals.
And yet feminism is accused of misandry.

Which is extremely, shockingly dumb a point of view because the enemy is not 'the men', but religion. It's religion which preaches taboo on all sex and the blame of any sexual transgression with women. It's also religion which teaches women are inferior, so probably not as entitled to the integrity of their body as men.

Quite frankly, merely speaking of feminist theories of 'rape culture' is deeply offensive and rude. You're insulting half the human population, while ignoring the real problem. I myself have uncovered sexual abuse on two occasions (yay for growing up in retarded Christian villages) and the shit that has cost me over the course of years... It cost so very much, money, time, emotionally... And in comes some twat who claims that I'm part of a 'rape culture' because of my gender.

Let me be short about that: Anyone who believes in 'rape culture' theories lacks any form of decency, and should be ignored.

Less rant'ish: I've always wondered what it is why feminists twist and bend themselves into such corners to find a culprit while they don't dare to attack religion at all, while it's no doubt their main enemy.

Wow, someone else who doesn't understand rape culture.

1.) Being a guy does not make you part of rape culture by default. Your actions do. Many guys are part of rape culture. Many make a conscious effort to not be.

2.) Women can perpetuate rape culture as well. Again, rape culture is not just "all men create rape culture," it's an intersecting dynamic of how society as a whole acts.

3.) Rape (as in, actual rape, not just rape culture) is overwhelmingly performed by men (90+%) against women.

4.) What feminists do you know? There are plenty of atheist feminists. I'd even say that MOST feminists acknowledge that religious systems are one of the key proponents of patriarchy. Since, well, they are.

That you somehow believes feminists don't attack religion and that you believe that rape culture is just a male thing shows that you don't understand jack shit about the topic, sorry. Educate yourself.

1: your right being simply male doesn't mean you contribute to rape culture, however according to mainstream feminists being a masculine, heterosexual man who doesn't completely agree with whatever feminists say, dose. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmHETvyk6eA

2: really, because every time iv seen "rape culture" presnted, it is always presented as a problem with men, women are never mentioned.

3: now this is something i think everyone should be aware of. The definition of rape in the UN, UK, US and just about every country around the world is that of gender exclusivity. for instance the definition of rape in the UK is this.

Definition of rape section 1 Sexual Offences Act 1956 (Archbold 2004, 20-5)

The offence applies to the rape of a woman or the rape of another man.

The offence of rape was restated in Section 142 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 to include anal sexual intercourse with another man without consent. Where anal intercourse takes place without consent, you should charge rape contrary to section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 and not buggery contrary to section 12 of that Act.

Following R v R [1992] A.C. 599 and the removal of the word "unlawful" from the definition of rape it is clear that a husband may be prosecuted for raping his wife.

A boy under 14 is now capable in law of sexual intercourse - Sexual Offences Act 1993, sections 1 and 2 Archbold 2004, 20-23.

A woman may be convicted as an aider and abettor.

( http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sexual_offences_rape/#Definition_of_rape )

now i don't know about you, but that clearly says that only men can be rapists. a woman according to it can aid and abet it but simply for the fact that she is female, even if she drugs a man or forces herself on top of him then she cannot be a rapist,. because y'know, men enjoy being violated.

and it is on these grounds i say bollocks to that 90% figure because according to the people that record that figure only one gender is capable of rape! so how on hearth is that figure going to be ACCURATE!?! Also if rape culture exists, then why is rape held up there with murder as one of the most despicable of crimes and can get you life in prison where you will be beaten by other inmates for it?

4: im not going to touch the religious side. there are plenty of non religious feminists and MRA's BLAH BLAH BLAH.....

Patriarchy theory however will take me all day to write so ill just link to these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV8F0TSLwOY&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sAomeiTOKI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBgcjtE0xrE&feature=plcp

 

[Smeatza]

I hate to interrupt but what do you mean by 'objective point of view'? I understand the idea of fact checking insofar as physical realities (Release dates, platform, etc) but I don't understand what you mean by an objective point of view.

Ethnography and historiography are just two academic fields that deal with the inherent subjectivity of texts. Your choice in words, subject matter and selection of evidence all alter the information you present. Even science reports are marked by their conscious decision to use 'scientific writing conventions' to present their information, and tend to have a particular aim or hypothesis in mind (At the necessary exclusion of others). Subjectivity doesn't negate the value of a discussion, it's an inherent part of it.

To keep to the topic, how do you find the objective facts behind the social implications of games? Sure, you can work toward an intuitive and intelligent interpretation of a game and how this may sit with its broader context (As I imagine is her aim), but I can't see how you can pull out an objective account or point of view from it.

My issue is purely with the format of her documentary. The best way I can put it is it's like the difference between Animal Face Off and Life on Earth. One is a documentary series based on reality, the other is a series that gives you reality.
This is all my assumption though, the end product could be entirely different than what I'm predicting.

When you say people who need to hear it, do you mean the ones in your other post?

I mean those who are unware or apathetic towards the issue.

I think you're forgetting all the people who don't have a strong opinion either way. It's perfectly plausible to think that the video is aimed to educate and inform people who either aren't aware of the issue, haven't given it adequate thought or know the issue, but don't yet grasp its serious implications for gaming and gaming's place in society. I'd hate to think how difficult progress would be if the only way to it was through stubborn minorities (In any issues there are always people who will never see reason). As far as getting many people to see it I'm thinking it'll be more a marketing problem than anything else.

In all honesty I'm not sure I'll agree with everything she will say, but I think it's definitely a debate worth having.

I would agree, it's certainly a debate worth having. I'm just not so sure her videos will be that effective in encouraging debate.

As I've said before, if someone won't watch a video because it contradicts what they want to believe, that isn't the problem of the video maker.

It is the problem of the video maker, if somone won't watch a video due to how it is presented.

Also, as I've said before, the world isn't divided into ardent sexists who won't watch it and fervent anti-sexists who will. That isn't how the world or viewership or documentaries work. I have no idea why you are convinced there is literally not one person who will watch it who isn't already decided one way or the other. She (the documentary maker) has stated her previous materials have been used by parents, in classrooms and by charities and other organizations to discuss gender issues, this will be no different only hopefully with higher production values and more solid research.

I don't understand where you are getting this from.
A number of people will not take this seriously as they will see it as an attack on, rather than a look into the gaming industy and gaming as a hobby.
I'm not saying the world is split into two sides, I'm not saying there's only two types of people who will watch this.
I'm saying that some of what I thought would be her preferred audience will not give this any credit due to how it is being presented.
This is just a prediction though, like I've said the end product could be vastly different to what I'm expecting.

Staying within one medium is a perfectly reasonable way to want to focus a discussion on a broader topic. Otherwise the discussion becomes too broad for the average person to keep the overarching point in mind (an issue that's even a problem when focusing on just video games, due to their variety; but at least keeping it to one medium limits that somewhat). Considering this is a very complex issue, breaking it up and examining cross-sections, rather than trying to examine the entirety of human existence, is much more effective at driving one's points across.

Plus, the video game community as a whole (i.e., generally, not entirely) tends to be a lot less open to gender discussions that communities for other media (in part because it's a lot younger and hasn't had equal time to deal with the issue), so it makes sense to target the video game community for this particular phenomenon, rather than to target books or films.

While I cannot disagree with anything here. I still feel that singleing out a particular form of media will make those who enjoy it feel victimised, and therefore less receptive to legitimate points.
Maybe that's necessary though. The sheer amount of people I've had disagreeing with me in this thread makes me think people will be more receptive to her videos than I suspect.
I'd still like to see somone address this issue in a more investigative manner though.

 

[PiCroft]

Then the point is shit. Me playing video games doesn't promote rape anymore than it promotes grand theft or genocide. You sound like Fox News right now.

What? How did you get GTA into this? He said: you can promote rape culture without literally being a rapist. By holding rape victims to absurdly high standards of belief compared to, say mugging victims, by suggesting women are to blame when someone rapes them etc.

Every time rape culture is brought up, people flock to deny it because they seem to think it declares every man an unequivocal rapist, demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding what rape culture actually is. Your immediate jump to your own defence against something no-one is accusing you is evidence of that.