Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[Eveonline100]

I'm interested in hearing what she has to say for the "man with boobs" episode. I've heard this criticism leveled before, but I've never heard anyone back it up in any meaningful way. It usually strikes me as the people who are invested in complaining about female characters finally getting one who isn't shoved into the usual female stereotype boxes and realizing how shitty most male characters actually are.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence. I'm not saying people shouldn't be talking about how female characters are portrayed, but why is no one doing the same for male characters? The closest I've ever heard someone come to that was as an aside during that PAX "women in games" event.

Does anyone think that their might be a direct relation between female characters getting stuck in these stereotypical roles and the same happening with male characters? Is there any merit to a more holistic approach? "Gender roles in video games" as to just "women in games" or "men in games"?

good point i'll say what it most likely is BAD Writing. Honestly stereotypes continue to exist because bad writer exists(heres an experiment outside of Bioware and Obsidian how many games can you say where written well then compare them to games that where badly written) As for the reason why we never hear complaints about male stereotypes if i had to take a guess is because that would fall under a men rights organization while they no doubt do exist(in this day in age i pretty sure their is a group campaigning for the rights of cupcakes). Its just that they are auto label mysigonics. That and most of the time its often times auto counter with men complaining about sexism towards men is like a white guy complaining about racism towards white men. Finally if you polled 100 people how many of them would honestly take you seriously when you say "Sexism exists towards men too". As i said at the start the relation to women getting stuck in stereotypical roles and men having the same thing happening to them too is due to bad writing.

 

[ayvee]

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Yes, your clever anatomy jokes are terribly impressive. First of all, have you actually seen her video series? It's hardly aggressive and is made of mostly very positive, constructive criticism delivered in a calm, rational, and by no means condescending way. She also goes out of her way in each episode to point out that tropes are not inherently harmful but that their overuse makes them cliche. Which is still not inherently harmful but is creatively bankrupt. So no one is opting for the full removal of these things, but rather to have other options. That's all anyone wants when we're calling for change in the videogame industry. Beyond that, I'm afraid I don't understand your post. Presupposing she won't address creators in a show about videogame deconstruction? "Playing the victim" when she's the recipient of everything that happened on YT, wikipedia vandalism by way of pornography, and more threats on Facebook, twitter, etc? Those things not being indicative of sexism? Deeper and/or more varied characters being harmful rather than helpful to the industry? And you accuse her of addressing this issue in the wrong way, which seems to suppose that the discussion of writing tropes has no value? I'm sorry, but you just seem to be misguided here.

 

[conflictofinterests]

my problem with it is that everyone seems to assume that just because the person is female then they cant be capable of anything bad and whatever she says must be the truth.

We both have the same problem: cases not being tried solely on their own merits. However, we are citing different influences, you the societal notion that women are more trustworthy and I the societal notion that women are less trustworthy. Both of these are things that ought to be nullified in the course of a case, but I think the societal notion that women are less trustworthy may be the more prevalent one, owing to the prevalence of Christianity (women are rarely virtuous, and when they are it is seldom of their own intentions), though yours may be present as well (probably more due to a patronizing sense that women are somehow less capable of misdirection)

I also agree that women who sexually predate on men are equally culpable and ought to be punished, but alas, there is still sexism in the world.

Furthermore concerning the instances of rape which are unsubstantiated due to the victim not speaking out soon enough, the statistic may be exaggerated, but are you really saying that no crime occurs that is not reported, or that doesn't have enough evidence to win at trial? Especially with something as emotionally charged as rape, I could see at least half of the occurrences of it going unreported or failing at trial due to time elapsed.

 

[Eveonline100]

A bit off topic but can someone tell me why people are using judaism as a derogatory term?

because people are jackass honestly welcome to the internet where most of the time this is the place where common decency go to die.

 

[Marik2]

Eh I dont like this kickstart idea. What we need is to fund THIS kickstart video project that is going research how men are portrayed in video games.

Seriously I am tired of us guys being portrayed as bloodthirsty fucking machines.

http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames?c=home

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

first off, how do you record something that isn't reported? because don't you need to report something in order for someone to know its happened? or can you read minds now.

Mostly because rapists are known to be repeat offenders, and while it only takes one woman to come forward to put him into jail, he can get away with numerous rapes before that one woman comes forward. And while many women will tell SOMEONE else about what occurred, a good number of them can't find the courage to come to court with evidence, or when they do, the hesitation on their part reflects not a deep inner turmoil (to do with religious perceptions of purity, and American perceptions of self-sufficiency, and a questioning of whether there was anything more she could have done to stop it) to the judge and jury, but dishonesty. Your statement, that women can lie, reflects this blame-the-victim bias so common in rape cases.

It is odd to me, that someone can accuse someone of measurable physical abuse, and when the measurements are taken and it proves that no physical abuse has occurred, that person is labled a liar or a madperson, but when that physical abuse happens to be rape, and the supposed victim happens to be a woman, it is not just that person who is the liar or the madperson, but everyone of that gender as well. Why not everyone of that complexion, or haircolor, or eyecolor, or stature?

I said women can lie not that every woman is a liar if one of them dose. my problem with it is that everyone seems to assume that just because the person is female then they cant be capable of anything bad and whatever she says must be the truth. like how if a male teacher sleeps with one of his purples he, as he should, goes to prison. However if a female teacher (Sarah Jones in this case) sleeps with one of her purples then dose she go to prison... nope.... she gets set free and gets a playboy shoot instead. same crime vastly different consequences.

And another thing, the whole less than 10% of rapists never see prison thing..... wouldn't that be because the court didn't find enough evidence to be able to convict the suspect. Maybe some of those rape cases where false accusations? (and it happens quite a lot, http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html) maybe they got the wrong man ETC, what I find troubling is this assumption that if a man is accused then he must be guilty. why would someone lie?

also when someone step forward, for any crime, and says they did that to me.... 3 years ago, then we should take that with some salt because there will be minuscule to no evidence of that actually happening and frankly, if someone doesn't have evidence, why should i believe them? unless you have proof then you should not say that that crime was committed i don't care if its in court or stats it is not right to say something happened when you have little to no proof that it did. Frankly the whole 95% of rape isn't reported thing, doesn't hold water, because even a year or so down the line, you have no proof that it happened apart from what the alleged victim says and that isn't proof, that's an accusation.

and im sorry but asking for proof is NOT blaming the victim its trying to dercern the truth.

Asking for proof is not blaming the victim. Trying to undermine her credibility at every turn is. (She shouldn't have had a drink / she had agreed to sex with him before / she was kissing him, etc)

Also, it's estimated that the number of false rape accusations is around 6% or so. About the same amount as false accusations for any other crime.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Which reminds me I'm still waiting for you to prove that telling rape jokes to people who want to hear them does harm.

Because it perpetuates the rape culture. Because it perpetuates the harmful cultural attitudes that allow rape to happen so often and that make it difficult for rape victims to report their abuse. Because you don't fucking joke about rape.

Prove that they cause shifts in attitudes (and don't give me some study that only shows short term effects).

And people joke about all sorts of horrible things.

Genocide, 9/11, death etc.

Look up dark humor sometime

capcha: get over it

How appropriate

Nobody says that the victims of genocide are at fault for what happened to them, or that they should have done more to fight the genocide, or doubts that there was any such genocide that actually took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_denial

Also I don't see why I should stop telling jokes just because other people (people I'm not telling the jokes too) believe stupid things.

I don't actually know any rape jokes that have victim blaming.

Those are denied by a handful of lone crazies who are ostracized by society.

Rape victims are challenged BY society.

Try again.

From what I've read of your "arguments" here, I most certainly know enough about you to judge that you are, in fact, supporting rape culture

Then you are shameless, without any form of decency, out of your mind, and not worth responding to. Go away and take your accusations of people supporting rape elsewhere.

But as it happens, thanks for proving feminists are indeed insane.

Awwww, I'm sowwy, did I huwt your pwecious fee-fees? The idea that your actions and words could be indirectly supporting a culture that trivializes rape sucks, doesn't it? You know what sucks more? Being on the other end of that culture.

You just keep digging your hole deeper, bucko. And btw, thanks for inserting "rape" where I say "rape culture" to twist my words into an argument you can more easily defend against with indignation. That's not underhanded at all.

I am telling you. I have fucking seen the consequences of my actions. As a guy who used to be as fucking willfully blind as you, I have seen rape culture for a fact. That you refuse to listen and consider becoming a better person is wholly on your shoulders, not mine.

Society and the media seem to jump on their side a lot. See duke lacrosse where everyone immediately assumed the college kids were guilty until it became painfully clear they weren't. I can't think of a big shitstorm where everyone sided with the accused.

Also saying you support something is saying you are actively rooting for it which he is not.

So soon we forget the lessons of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, eh?

Most people believed the woman iirc, I think there was a guy on Fox who said differently and that's it.

Oh come on. You don't remember the dozens of people trying to dig up SOME dirt on her, impugning her character as though it makes her accusations of rape any less valid? You don't remember the hundreds of people leaping to DSK's defense? You don't remember that the case was dropped before ever fucking seeing court despite a preponderance of evidence?

 

[Therumancer]

Interestingly though what people think is good by feminist standards doesn't sell to either men or women. "The Longest Journey" was nowhere near the success of things like Metroid or Half-Life.

A point I keep making which people don't want to address since it pretty much shuts down every arguement is to look at what women create for themselves and aim at a female audience. You'll quickly notice that these "negative tropes" and some of the most criticized female characters are par for the course.

I'll also say that people keep tossing statistics around in this. Oddly you'll find this is a good example of how statistics are meaningless as you can find or modify statistics to say whatever you want. No matter what you think, someone probably created a statistic to "prove" what you want to believe at some point. You'll find that in arguements about women in games those taking a feminist approach of demanding industry change will either approach it from female gamers being "locked out" and pointing out how few of them there are, or saying that there are tons of female gamers, representing a substantial percentage of the market, who should be given more of a voice in what is created... depending on the needs of the moment. Is 30-50% of the gaming audience women, or is it only 4% as marked by someone's claim about sales?

In the end I maintain it's a non-issue, it exists only for people to try and get attention.

So you're saying that just because women write sexist characters that it's ok for sexist characters to exist? Just because women can write sexist characters is no excuse for them being as ubiquitous in games as they are.

No, it's because the characters aren't sexist in the least. In the end both men and women wind up wanting the same basic things, the genders aren't as radically differant as many people want to pretend. When you get down to it, a feminist arguement comes down to anything that men like being inherantly wrong, or demeaning. At the end of the day women strive for a physical ideal the same way men do. With that physical ideal comes a desire to show it off, and this comes through in the characters that possess it. When it comes to fantasy you have both male and female characters doing the same basic things, and ultimatly in much the same way.

At the end of the day there really isn't much of a differance between Lara Croft and Indiana Jones for example, they both do pretty much the same thing albiet with somewhat differant underlying motivations. Both characters do the quintessential action thing, and are drop dead gorgeous to the opposite gender (and yes, Harrison Ford has been a sex symbol for a long time). Lara however gets flak because it's a female character and appealing to men, where you generally don't see men coming out and saying that the way how Indy/Harrison Ford is a sex symbol to women is demeaning to men.

The big differance is that women can get attention by going off about media, where guys generally can't. As a result, whenever someone wants a platform, or five minutes of fame, this is a decent target.

Understand also, it's not a case with a few women creating 'sexist' characters... it's simply about reality and what women actually want to see, and how little an issue there actually is. We're not talking about a fringe here, I'm pointing to some of the biggest and most prolific creators of women's fantasy there are out there. These are the ladies the define it, and are successful for giving the female audience what it wants. There isn't much room to argue, it makes it incredibly obvious that our rampaging vlogger is totally off base.

 

[Therumancer]

A point I keep making which people don't want to address since it pretty much shuts down every arguement is to look at what women create for themselves and aim at a female audience. You'll quickly notice that these "negative tropes" and some of the most criticized female characters are par for the course.

I find it by far the most worrying point, and I'm willing to discuss it until the cows come home! Women are as much a part of the problem as men - by saying that I'm a feminist and that I want equal and balanced representation across all media for women, I'm by no means saying that it's men's fault that we don't have it now. You only have to look at fashion magazines which are written by and for women to know that we often do nothing to help ourselves. It's self-perpetuating: we grow up with stereotyped depictions of women in the media and so that's how we view ourselves. We then sell this back to the younger generation and the cycle goes on and on and on.... until people are educated about it. Enter Anita Sarkeesian...

Actually the thing is there is no problem. The success of the creators I mentioned is due to the fact that they produce what the audience wants. I'm not talking about people on the fringes either, but some of the most prolific and popular creators aiming at women within the fantasy genere. This is what women want, not what they are being forced to consume, or brain washed into. At the end of the day it's all pretty straightforward, physical ideals from the protaganists, typically not being either shy or vain about that ideal, and going out and actively doing exciting things within the genere. It's exactly the same for both men and women. At the end of the day men and women really aren't all that differant, there is nothing sexist involved, it's just human.

The entire arguement being made here boils down to the position that if men like something or find it appealing, then it must be wrong.

What's more with women by the millions buying books, and supporting TV shows like True Blood to make the creators I mentioned what they are (we're not talking about a fringe) it's pretty obvious that the bottom line is people like our crusading Vlogger trying to pretty much tell the majority they are wrong, and that they should have a differant attitude, and want something differant. If taken seriously it's pretty much "I know better than you, so you should change to want what I say you should want", but in the final equasion I don't think it's even a genuine attempt to do that, so much as it is an attempt to get attention.

Women already have a balanced portrayal throughout the media. You have female characters doing all of the same stuff male chartacters are doing throughout science fiction and fantasy. Yes, female characters are generally portrayed as being drop dead sexy, but the same can be said of male characters. Lara Croft is a sex symbol, but so is Indiana Jones. Granted the sex appeal can be packaged a bit differantly, but it's still there. Harrison Ford, William Shatner, Tom Cruise, Sean Connery, all action/genere guys who owe a lot of their success to being eye candy for the ladies.

There is no issue here, women are just as fairly represented accross media as men are, movies, TV, video games, etc.. At this point if someone does not like the tropes that's a personal matter for them, not an issue that deserves a platform to call for massive reforms.

Also on a differant, but connected note, the issue of "physical ideals" in the media is something that affects both genders. Women get more press for the whole schtick of trying to force themselves to be slim and pretty to fit a fantasy ideal, but the problem is just as bad for guys and ties into the whole "steroid crisis" with guys trying to pump their muscle definition up to the level of movie or video game he-men and such. Women try and claim this as being something special that only applies to them, and it's not.

At the end of the day physical ideals exist in the media because they are fun, and that's what entertainment is all about. Sure, not many guys or girls are going to look like that, which is why it's impressive, and helps create the suspension of disbelief that they can do whatever crazy things the fantasy requires to work. People embrace the media to get away from the ordinary and argueing that the media should only involve ordinary people kind of defeats the purpose. When your dealing with billions of people on the planet, and the population increasing every day, it's not surprising that a few are going to be absolute freaks and destroy themselves doing stupid things. With so many bloody people on the planet "a few"
can amount to some pretty staggering numbers. That is not to say that striving for an ideal is "stupid", it only becomes so when people take it to the point of self destruction, self improvement is generally a good thing. Just becayuse there are girls who kill themselves with purging and botox, and guys who explode their hearts with 'roids trying to look like a He-Man action figure does not mean there is actually an issue... just that there are stupid people, whose deaths will be exploited for purposes of sensationalism.

 

[Spearmaster]

Wait...am I wrong or is the sexist portrayal of some women in video games used to exploit a male demographic? Wouldn't that mean its using sex appeal of artificial characters to exploit men for bigger profit and making men a victim as well?
Thus the image of women has been damaged but is used to trick real men out of real money and also providing them with a possible biased/sexist view of women. I do realize this works both ways but games are marketed more towards men making us the intended victims.

In this regard Men are also a victim of male gender stereotypes in games as well. It is depressing that I don't have the physique of any of the male video game heroes. Probably the same for women.

I don't want to start a fight but I am curious about this.

Also what can actually be done about it other than a direct boycott or asking them nice to stop, even the most impressive speech or rant about a problem without a viable solution is just whining right?

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Wow, more than 1001 posts arguing about gender issues.
I believe we do need that documentary...

 

[Hollyday]

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You put your argument really persuasively but I really couldn't disagree with you more. I don't see how anyone can say that the portrayal of women across the media is balanced.

There are too many possible examples to look at this through, but one which illustrates the point well is this:

Spoiler: Empire magazine's poll of the 100 greatest movie characters of all time

http://www.empireonline.com/100-greatest-movie-characters/default.asp?c=100

There is one female character in the top 20 (Ripley at number 9).

Don't you think that's, well, really really odd? Surely there should be a pretty 50/50 split? Even if it was mostly men voting (which I believe it was) it's still possible to identify with female characters. Why such the vast difference?

I think it's because there just aren't as many memorable roles written for women in films. Female characters are often portrayed as tired cliches in even the most worthy, interesting, fun films. I voted in this poll - you had to submit your 5 favourite characters - and all my choices were men. I'm finding it really hard even now to think of any female characters who might deserve a place on this list. Is that because women aren't as interesting as men? aren't as heroic? aren't as easy to identify with? of course not. It's because these great, iconic roles just aren't written for women. A woman in the vast majority of films is there to be eye-candy, to provide momentum for the plot (like her being kidnapped/attacked/killed), to be a love-interest or just be there as a token nod to prove that they are aware that women exist.

This isn't the situation because we want it to be - how could anyone think that it's normal to ignore/marginalise 50% of the earth's population in this way? - it's the way it is because this is the way it's always been and no one is trying to change it. Your comment that everything is fine as it is and by making writers include more women we would somehow take away from the experience is absurd: how can we possibly know that until we try? As a woman I know that I want this to change - however, I know that many other men and women don't see a problem at all. That's fine. There will always be these types of films for you to enjoy. But surely equal representation is not just entitled whining, it's what needs to happen?

On a quicker note, your point about male stereotypes, with muscles and steroids etc. is valid up until a point but there is a big difference between a sexualised character and a power fantasy. Early posts on this thread explain that much better than I could though.

 

[Legend0fGear]

I saw this Kickstarter with my girlfriend the other day and I in many ways agree, we need better female characters in video games. I'm an avid gamer and I'm intrigued to watch the standard female characters deconstructed to their archetypes. We also watched many of her videos, very few times did I feel that I disagreed with Anita Sarkeesian. She puts quite a lot of work into getting the info for many of her videos and I'm very glad that the (hopefully) minority wont scare her into backing down!