Animyr said:
kael013 said:
As for LoU being an exercise in player choice, every game is.
Not in terms of morality. Most linear stories with linear gameplay - many shooters, for instance -don't give you much of a choice on your actions. I just pointed out about the sneaking option in response to your extended rant about how the game made you kill people. Even if you manage to sneak the whole game though, Joel still clearly has an established character that is rooted in violence and who doesn't hesitate to consider violent solutions, regardless of the players actions.
This is true and I never said otherwise. However, you cut out the part that was most important to the point I was trying to make here: [quote/]You said you can sneak past many enemy encounters; that's a player choice and [b/]can color your view of a character even in cases you know it shouldn't.[/b][/quote] Joel has an established characterization of a man "rooted in violence and who doesn't hesitate to consider violent solutions", to use your words. However, that characterization can be undermined by the gameplay. My friend played LoU as a stealth game, trying to sneak past as many guards as possible. This reflects on Joel's personality: the cutscenes say that Joel is a violent person, my friend's way of playing says Joel is a person who doesn't hurt others unless he has no choice. This creates a story-gameplay segregation where the gameplay undermines the story. If you disagree with this, that cool, but please don't respond to this; it's not an important point of discussion to me.
[quote/]
kael013 said:
However, where did I try to tell you your ideas were wrong and mine were right?
You were explaining why you are standing by your position, thus reaffirming it and implicitly rejecting all contrary positions, at least provisionally. That is why you posted, correct? You admitted here that--
kael013 said:
Yes I have judged the game and its characters from just the opening. That's called first impressions. Will mine be proven wrong further into the game? Maybe, but until then I'll stand by them.
Clearly, despite the fact that you've only seen small parts of the game, you still felt confident enough to declare agreement for Yahtzee's judgment of the entire thing, and to rise to his defense against rebuttals from other people who also went through the whole game and think Yahtzee is completely off the mark(as you did in the first post I responded to). All that based on what you freely admit are first impressions? I think that's inappropriate and unfair, especially if you aren't going to move further into the game.[/quote]
First of all, I agreed with Yahtzee's view that games treat death a little too lightly. I never said I agreed with Yahtzee's view of the game. From my first post: [quote/]Now that I think about it it's kind of amazing how many games give us a choice as to how we play, then force us to kill when in a fight.[/quote] (really it's not, but I never thought about it before) This is pretty much my [i/]entire point[/i]. All my "ranting" before was focused on this. Let's move away from LoU since that was just an example (and a poor one at that): How many games give you the option of talking your way out of every fight? How many games allow you to incapacitate or cripple enemies in a fight, then let them live? I can think of one and a genre respectively. Planescape: Torment lets you talk your way through the whole game without ever having to kill someone (well, besides yourself). The stealth genre came about as an anti-thesis for the whole "murder everything in front of you" way games were (and still are). However, that's old stealth games. New stealth games now give you the option of murdering everything in front of you as well. For every game I've ever played that wasn't Planescape: Torment or a stealth game if you got into a fight it was kill or be killed. What is the most common method character drama games use to show it's set in a brutal world? Not forced prostitution, slavery, drug addiction, or corruption. It's killing. There are worse things than death, but apparently not in videogames.
Second of all, my first post was on how a game needs to create a connection between the player and the protagonist at the beginning before disconnecting. At the time I wrote that I believed that the beginning of the game was hunting Robert. You pointed out that was incorrect and I admitted that I was wrong in that instance. I then say my view on the main point (as described in the paragraph above) hasn't changed [i/]because no one has provided a counter-argument to it[/i]. You argued about the player-protagonist disconnect part, but didn't argue the rest until after I reaffirmed it. And you say that's being close-minded? It's hard to take an opposing argument into consideration when you've never heard it.
Third of all, I am moving further into the game. I've been watching a game walkthrough and intend to see it through to the end. [i/]Then[/i], I will determine whether Yahtzee's view of this game was accurate. However, that's just my view of this game, not the point Yahtzee was making with the article about death.
[quote/]Now from what I gather, your first impression of the game was of him brutalizing people, and then of an internet critic harping on the subject. You viewed events out of order and I'm wondering if it's affected your perceptions of the game a little.[/quote] Really? I had no idea. /sarcasm Of course it affected my judgement. If the first time you see someone is when they're covered in blood, holding a bloody knife and grinning like a kid in a candy store you're gonna think they have a few issues. Context at that point doesn't matter, you've pinned them as a maniac. However, if you learn later they're a butcher then you must re-evaluate. And as I said above, I am.
[quote/]
kael013 said:
All I said was I still agreed with Yahtzee that games use death as a short-hand for "this is a serious work guys" too much. It's, in my opinion, cheap and there are other ways to show the world is messed up. Is LoU a great example for this argument? Not really, but it has small moments that can be used to support the argument.
That?s not all you said, but I do agree with the general sentiment. I already wrote a bit how I do think that LOU was hurt by excessive combat. Certainty there is room for improvement, for LOU and in general. But to reiterate on what you just admitted there are far, far better examples of this.[/quote]
I feel that is all I've said - aside from the player-protagonist disconnect thing that I admitted was wrong. I used parts of LoU as examples of where death was used to cement it was a brutal world when it wasn't the best time to cement that fact. I talked about how player choice can affect your perception of the story (ludonarrative disconnect I believe is the pretentious term). Everything else was about my argument's shortcomings because I was using incomplete knowledge and first impressions. So to me, I never talked about anything else but the death topic.