Killing Joke Film Controversy SPOILERS

[JimB]

How is he acting like a father figure when he literally can not be emotionally there for any of them? He can mentor them on how to fight crime, but when it comes with deal with actual people and relationships Bruce is pretty much lost.

Kids don't get to pick their parents. They have to love and trust their parents because they have no other choice; they need their parents too much to keep them alive and to teach them what the world is and what they as children are and how to navigate all the trials of being a child who lives in the world. The first sentence of this does not apply to the Batkids, but the second absolutely does. Like their biological parents, the Batkids have no choice but to trust Batman if they want to survive and to learn how to be better than they currently are.

For Batman to stick his dick inside Batgirl is just the biggest betrayal because he of all people knows what it's like to be abandoned by your parents. It's not just hypocrisy for him to do so, and it's not just a betrayal of her and her trust (though let's be clear, those things are bad enough), it's a betrayal of what Batman represents in the mythology of the DC Universe: justice. Just as Superman is an avatar of hope, Batman is meant to be an avatar of justice* who punishes wrongdoers. By violating Batgirl's trust, he puts himself in a position of needing to be punished for his sin, and the way it looks up to this point, his punishment is for someone else to be brutalized, crippled, and emotionally scarred for life. Batman escapes justice by giving his sentence to a girl who is not the hero of her own story but just a pair of knees Batman is fond of because of that time they parted for him, and her pain stops being about her own struggle because it needs to be about Batman having a reason to punch a mass murderer in the face.

At least from the information available, this choice is a misfire on every level, making Batman a bad person as well as a corruption of his own mythological underpinnings, and making Batgirl less a character than plot device to serve as a basis for a fight by enraging him that the Joker would touch his stuff.


*albeit not a form of justice I condone or agree with, but never mind

 

[Fox12]

First of all, changed it, my bad.

Second of all, that's not the point. It's not that you see them doing it, its the fact that a guy is in a sexual relationship with A: his best friends daughter, B: his son's ex, C: a his apprentice. Its just creepy, at least to me.

Not just to you, but to most people, I'd say.

It also feels forced, awkward and unnecessary...

But again, vote with your wallet.

Well, apparently this is the guy who had The Joker rape some dudes wife in another comic, in an attempt to be edgy, so no surprises here.

And, as if I needed another reason to dislike him, he worked on Before Watchmen, earning my undying hatred. This guy seriously needs to stop piggy backing off Alan Moore. I think I'll avoid this on principal.

Why do so many guys in the comic book industry creep me the fuck out? We need more Neil Gaiman's.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

How is he acting like a father figure when he literally can not be emotionally there for any of them? He can mentor them on how to fight crime, but when it comes with deal with actual people and relationships Bruce is pretty much lost.

Kids don't get to pick their parents. They have to love and trust their parents because they have no other choice; they need their parents too much to keep them alive and to teach them what the world is and what they as children are and how to navigate all the trials of being a child who lives in the world. The first sentence of this does not apply to the Batkids, but the second absolutely does. Like their biological parents, the Batkids have no choice but to trust Batman if they want to survive and to learn how to be better than they currently are.

For Batman to stick his dick inside Batgirl is just the biggest betrayal because he of all people knows what it's like to be abandoned by your parents. It's not just hypocrisy for him to do so, and it's not just a betrayal of her and her trust (though let's be clear, those things are bad enough), it's a betrayal of what Batman represents in the mythology of the DC Universe: justice. Just as Superman is an avatar of hope, Batman is meant to be an avatar of justice* who punishes wrongdoers. By violating Batgirl's trust, he puts himself in a position of needing to be punished for his sin, and the way it looks up to this point, his punishment is for someone else to be brutalized, crippled, and emotionally scarred for life. Batman escapes justice by giving his sentence to a girl who is not the hero of her own story but just a pair of knees Batman is fond of because of that time they parted for him, and her pain stops being about her own struggle because it needs to be about Batman having a reason to punch a mass murderer in the face.

At least from the information available, this choice is a misfire on every level, making Batman a bad person as well as a corruption of his own mythological underpinnings, and making Batgirl less a character than plot device to serve as a basis for a fight by enraging him that the Joker would touch his stuff.


*albeit not a form of justice I condone or agree with, but never mind

But the other major thing about Batman, and this is the very fucking thing everyone that claims to love the character states about him: HES FUCKING HUMAN. We can't just say like "Oh we like Batman, because unlike Superman he has human limitations"

Ya know those human limitations are more than he can get shot right? Those human limitations are that he can be a FUCKING ASSHOLE. There is nothing in his life that would mean he's above the same flaws and problems and insecurities as the rest of us. Batman can still be an Avatar for justice, but Bruce Wayne and by that extentsion human beings ARE NOT AVATARS.

Now if someone wants to argue that it's escapist fantasy and for that reason this shouldn't happen yadda yadda, yeah then I get it. Otherwise? You got a damaged person, a young girl that idolizes him and likes him for probably all the wrong reasons, he probably subcumbs to her affection because it makes him hate himself a little less.

And that's always what Batman's been about guys. It's a rich white cisgendered guy crying out in pain about how life was unfair to him, God forbid I get lumped in the SJW crowd but thats what it is. Fuck. Like I love the character as much as the next guy, but you gotta see that right? Thats who Bruce Wayne would be in the real world.

I'm gonna let my arguments rest at this point.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Huh. I had actually not realized they changed Barbara's entire character. I thought she was still Commisioner Gordon's daughter and Dick as Robin was a character and yadda yadda.

Apparently she's what, just like a Librarian? And not even a fun Force Sword and Psychic Hood one. The boring kind, with like books and reference cards. And her whole motivation to be Batgirl isn't to fight crime or prove herself to herself or help her dad, its to fuck Batman. That's her motivation. To have fetish sex with Batman who she's convinced is like lonely and needs her. She even tells coworkers she's dating someone...when she's not.

So they turned Batgirl, one of the strongest, most independent and noble heroes in all of DC, gender aside, into a creepy, man-hungry sex-crazed stalker with no nobility, self-sacrifice or really any redeemable qualities except 'Hey she's a Red head, so you know...fire-crotch.'

 

[shrekfan246]

Like I said, i don't think it is bad writing. It all makes perfect sense to me why Bruce would do it, and why Barbra would do it.

And if it's gross, well the world is gross and there are gross people in it that do gross things.

and even from a writer perspective... barbra the girl in the fridge here. It's not her story, she's a plot point. And the story needs padding for it to have a good run time. It makes perfect sense to do something that shows Batman's connection to Barbra rather than... Showing Barbra living the life of Batgirl and why it means so much to her and how tragic itll be when thats taken from her. Hey if it was an expanded universe, then maybe I'd take issue for the decision to have them bang instead of some type of mentor bullshit but it's not. It's a one shot.

I don't think I would of had them fucking on a roof top in costume if I was writing it, but I probably would've written the relationship like that. You can call it lazy, I call it writing for your audience. After all we need justification to Batman snapping Joker's neck later at the end.

If the only way you have to establish a connection between a male and female character (or between a female character and the audience) is through sex, then yes, that's lazy, bad writing. If the only way you can justify Batman roughing up the Joker is through a sexual relationship, then that's incredibly lazy, bad writing.

(This is why this sort of thing is a feminist issue in the first place, as it happens, because women are far more than just sex and this writing and the defense of it only perpetuates the societal stereotypes that women are sex objects.)

No it's deeper than that.

I don't look at Bruce Wayne as this guy that can get any lady he wants. This is a man that is built up, walls within walls, He wants to let people but he can't. Because he doesn't want to see them get hurt. That's like the whole major heart of his character is that the people he loves that are around him get hurt. So he keeps them at distance not only for their safety, but more importantly his.

You can call it lazy, I call it demonstrating the deeply abstract thing of showing that Barbra is within those walls in the simplest way possible so it's accessible to any moron who decides to watch it that A. Only knows batman on a superficial level and B. Probably doesn't understand their own complex human emotions.

The piece already fails under a feminist lens, I think that's quite clear. But Killing Joke isn't the story about Barbra Gordon losing her legs, she is a prop here. Theres literally no point in expanding upon her here because then? Then it's not an adaptation of the Killing Joke, it's entirely something different. That's neither bad nor good, thats just what is and the goal from the writing perspective is to adapt Killing Joke.

And we have an hour to explain in a short story why Batman ends up breaking his own rule and finally killing Joker. Which is ultimately what this short story is.

As long as were talking writing, myself as a writer? I'd more or less do the same thing, any changes I'd do would probably be completely modular. I wouldn't bother trying to make the story less sexist, because the story is inherently sexist.

If you want to think it's lazy, like we can agree to disagree, but i am curious to know how you would write it then. Knowing that you can't change the meat of what Killing Joke was, and you got say 20 minutes of filler, and the end result mind you is on Batman killing Joker.

Cause, yeah I'm probably not the best writer but I'm in a glass house and cant throw stones. How'd you book it?

First of all, unless they've significantly changed the ending of the original story, you're confusing Joker in The Killing Joke with Joker in The Dark Knight Returns. Joker doesn't die in The Killing Joke.

As for why Bruce would be invested in her without also boning her, even if they didn't want to try quickly putting in the connection with Dick Grayson because of filler in a story that he doesn't star in, there's still the simple fact that she's the daughter of Commissioner Gordon, whom Batman has rather a long working history with that anyone going to see The Killing Joke should be well-aware of. Gordon happens to be just about the only person in Gotham that Batman actually trusts, and Barbara wormed her way into the Bat-family through her keen intellect and observation and her own drive to stop crime, not through her feminine wiles.

DC responded to the fan-based acclaim and criticism of the new character [Barbara Gordon as Batgirl] in an open letter in Detective Comics No. 417 (1971), stating: "I'd like to say a few words about the reaction some readers have to Batgirl. These are readers who remember Batwoman and the other Bat-girls from years back ... They were there because romance seemed to be needed in Batman's life. But thanks to the big change and a foresighted editor, these hapless females are gone for good. In their place stands a girl who is a capable crime-fighter, a far cry from Batwoman who constantly had to be rescued [by] Batman."

So again, if the only thing you can do with that character is turn her into a sexual object for Batman, then yes, I'm going to say you're lazy. "Romantic interest gets hurt/crippled/killed to motivate the main character" is one of the oldest, most overused tropes in the book at this point.

 

[shrekfan246]

Huh. I had actually not realized they changed Barbara's entire character. I thought she was still Commisioner Gordon's daughter and Dick as Robin was a character and yadda yadda.

Apparently she's what, just like a Librarian? And not even a fun Force Sword and Psychic Hood one. The boring kind, with like books and reference cards. And her whole motivation to be Batgirl isn't to fight crime or prove herself to herself or help her dad, its to fuck Batman. That's her motivation. To have fetish sex with Batman who she's convinced is like lonely and needs her. She even tells coworkers she's dating someone...when she's not.

So they turned Batgirl, one of the strongest, most independent and noble heroes in all of DC, gender aside, into a creepy, man-hungry sex-crazed stalker with no nobility, self-sacrifice or really any redeemable qualities except 'Hey she's a Red head, so you know...fire-crotch.'

As far as I know she's still Gordon's daughter. She was originally a librarian in the comics anyway apparently, before Crisis rebooted everything.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

So have they taken her character, and her alone, back to the 60s when she was literally a bumbling damsel to be saved? 'cause that's what its feeling like.

 

[JimB]

But the other major thing about Batman, and this is the very fucking thing everyone that claims to love the character states about him: He's fucking human.

Yes. That is why I brought up the punishment angle in my post. When humans fuck up, we get punished. His punishment is deferred onto someone else. The writers fucked that up.

I'm gonna let my arguments rest at this point.

Okie-dokie.

 

[shrekfan246]

SNIP

So have they taken her character, and her alone, back to the 60s when she was literally a bumbling damsel to be saved? 'cause that's what its feeling like.

In fact, I'd say it's worse, because back in her introduction in 1967 she picked up the fight as Batgirl because she happened across a crime in progress, not because she wanted into Batman's pants. She even specifically mocks the way that Batman says she shouldn't follow him and Robin because they can't afford to be worried about a girl.

 

[mecegirl]

I think it could be interesting to see more stories from Barbra Gordon's point of view where she is kidnapped or taken hostage because she is the Commissioner's daughter. In the same way that it's interesting to see Bruce Wayne deal with being held up for ransom because he's rich. So it becomes a game of how to get out of a bad situation without letting the enemy know that you are actually a superhero.

 

[crimsonspear4D]

I think "The Killing Joke" was the most divisive piece of the Batman continuity for me, I mean Batgirl was "okay" but didn't really struck me as the female equivalent of Batman like Batwoman came to be. While very intelligent and incredibly competent (most of the time), I just thought of her as the victorious fan girl who just wanted to be like Batman out of hero worship, boredom, and/or desperation. While other heroes would've told them to go home and they learn their lesson or whatever, she gets lucky in one mission and is not only rewarded by joining the bat family and have adventures but got a cool new dad out of it.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that she was meant to be a metaphor or something, I think, I barely remember it.

Anyway, I thought she did better as Oracle, yeah she was mostly kept out of the stories despite being still being an incredible asset, but I liked how her character handled the accident and used it to still be of help. Speaking of which, the Batman Beyond continuity confused the hell out of me, if the TKJ happened in it how is Barbara walking at around? Advancements in medtech, magic, retconning? I'll admit I'm no comic expert and there are significant gaps in my memory from both the comics and cartoons.

1. Dating within the team always leads to disaster

3. If my enemies new I had someone special, they wouldn't rest until they've gotten to me, through her.

"But it's totally cool if I fuck Barbara Gordon! She's even the daughter of a good friend of mine and she's going out with my son, so it all works out!" - Douchebat

Y'know, after all this talk of bat-shipping, I gotta say, Batman/Wonder Woman was my favorite. I know people thought it was some kind of Gary Stu, wish-fufillment garbage ship, but I thought it would've been FAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR more interesting and intriguing than Superman/Wonder Woman. Something about Bruce and Diana just seemed... right.

 

[fezzthemonk]

Does nobody remember that in batman beyond, barbra has said that she had a tbing for batman and when they tried to be more than partners; it didnt work out? I dont see a problem with her having sex with bruce and i dont see why you people do ether. This is a cartoon. None of this is consiquential. Even if this was all real life, she can sleep with whoever the hell she wants, even if you find it wierd

 

[shrekfan246]

Speaking of which, the Batman Beyond continuity confused the hell out of me, if the TKJ happened in it how is Barbara walking at around? Advancements in medtech, magic, retconning? I'll admit I'm no comic expert and there are significant gaps in my memory from both the comics and cartoons.

The Killing Joke isn't canon to the Animated Universe. Most of these more recent DC animated films are set in their own separate universe or universes.

 

[crimsonspear4D]

Speaking of which, the Batman Beyond continuity confused the hell out of me, if the TKJ happened in it how is Barbara walking at around? Advancements in medtech, magic, retconning? I'll admit I'm no comic expert and there are significant gaps in my memory from both the comics and cartoons.

The Killing Joke isn't canon to the Animated Universe. Most of these more recent DC animated films are set in their own separate universe or universes.

Ah, okay thanks. That's one gap filled.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Speaking of which, the Batman Beyond continuity confused the hell out of me, if the TKJ happened in it how is Barbara walking at around? Advancements in medtech, magic, retconning? I'll admit I'm no comic expert and there are significant gaps in my memory from both the comics and cartoons.

The Killing Joke isn't canon to the Animated Universe. Most of these more recent DC animated films are set in their own separate universe or universes.

Its comics dude. At any given moment 99.999999999999% of all comics aren't considered canon to anything.

 

[shrekfan246]

Speaking of which, the Batman Beyond continuity confused the hell out of me, if the TKJ happened in it how is Barbara walking at around? Advancements in medtech, magic, retconning? I'll admit I'm no comic expert and there are significant gaps in my memory from both the comics and cartoons.

The Killing Joke isn't canon to the Animated Universe. Most of these more recent DC animated films are set in their own separate universe or universes.

Its comics dude. At any given moment 99.999999999999% of all comics aren't considered canon to anything.

Sure?

I was answering that person's question as to why Barbara wasn't paralyzed in the DCAU. The events of The Killing Joke, as far as we know, never happened in the DCAU.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

The Batman/Barbara pairing surprises me, but there's nothing exceptionally wrong with it. There's an age difference to consider, and their relationship is usually that of a mentor and an apprentice, but ultimately - they're adults, they're not related, whatever. Who cares. They can smash genitals, I don't mind.

Lots of interpretations of Batgirl play her as essentially a Batman fangirl who improvises a costume to go fight crime, so that's not new.

I will say that adding a Batgirl/Batman relationship to the plot of The Killing Joke does make it more...well, they gotta add something to the plot. It's not a very long comic. Batman and Batgirl's relationship is the obvious place to start.

I think I would have preferred their relationship to be non-sexual, just because making it sexual kind of raises the spectre of the "bad guy did bad thing to good guy's girlfriend, now good guy is mad" cliche. Which is lazy writing; Batman can care plenty about Barbara Gordon without putting his penis inside her.

As for Batman's usual pairings...the guy practically has a harem. Selina Kyle, Zatanna, Wonder Woman, then all the "normal" girlfriends like Vicki Vale. I cannot think of a more commonly paired-up DC character than Bruce Wayne. Maybe Dick Grayson, but to be perfectly honest, he tends to just get sexually assaulted.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

[sub][sub][sub][sub][sub]comicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanon[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Spoiler: Barbara telling Bruce

Spoiler: Bruce telling Dick

Spoiler: And they all lived happily ever after

What the shit? Is that an actual comic book that exists? It looks like a goddamn parody of comics injecting real life issues into them to make them more srs biznz.

OT: I don't have a special connection to the Killing Joke. Read it a couple of times, and it's decent, and the end bit with Batman and The Joker on the rooftop is a nice moment between the two. But stretching its runtime with this? Talk about lack of creativity. Couldn't this have just been done with Batman and Barbara stopping some goons in the beginning, and something goes awry, prompting Batman to go to the Joker to have the conversation that sets the story in motion?

 

[RebornKusabi]

Would you look at that! In the previous topic, I called it like a fuggin' boss

My only issue with this is after time to think, it makes all of The Killing Joke movie into a shaggy dog story for Batgirl. She acts on a crush, lets herself be vulnerable, and gets screwed over by both the man she thought she loved or at least had sex with in the heat of the moment and by The Joker, who wasn't even targeting her to begin with.

Then it adds a needless rape mechanic, for lack of a better word, to The Joker and Barbera Gordon scenes, when the original comic HINTS at it, but doesn't outright state it like the movie does. It all just comes out frankly kind of crass, as a huge DC fan myself.

The only solace of all of this is that before DC'a reboots took over late 2000's, Barbera Gordon becomes The Oracle, a complete badass hacker and martial artist, and in current 2010's comics, what the Joker does here doesn't even permanently paralyze her, it just disables her for a couple of months/years.

[sub][sub][sub][sub][sub]comicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanon[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Spoiler: Barbara telling Bruce

Spoiler: Bruce telling Dick

Spoiler: And they all lived happily ever after

What the shit? Is that an actual comic book that exists? It looks like a goddamn parody of comics injecting real life issues into them to make them more srs biznz.

OT: I don't have a special connection to the Killing Joke. Read it a couple of times, and it's decent, and the end bit with Batman and The Joker on the rooftop is a nice moment between the two. But stretching its runtime with this? Talk about lack of creativity. Couldn't this have just been done with Batman and Barbara stopping some goons in the beginning, and something goes awry, prompting Batman to go to the Joker to have the conversation that sets the story in motion?

Yeah part of the problem I have with Bruce Timm is that he seems to have a massive problem with wanting to make Batgirl a damsel or rape victim or have bad things happen to her. He does the same thing to Tim Drake in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, and it always came across to me as needlessly 90's edgy. I also never like The Killing Joke either- the only thing that's held up to me personally, and the only two good parts of it, are Batman confronting the "Joker" in the beginning and pleading to stop all of this, and The Joker explaining his multiple origins to the reader, all diverse (some of that is done extremely well in The Dark Knight). The Babs stripping and Jim Gordon watching his daughter be violated stuff? Not so much, it came across as needlessly excessive and I've seen A Serbian Film!

Is it any wonder that Batgirl was only able to be written well when it's a woman writing her?