Knightfail

[Cerrax]

There were so many missed opportunities with TDKR.

The reveal of Harvey Dent's true actions as Two-Face was so weak and ineffective, when The Dark Knight spent an entire movie making a big deal about how important Harvey's reputation was to the city. If anything, Bane could have used that before he took over the city to instill distrust in the government, making his takeover that much easier.

When Bane talks about "giving the city back to the people", there could have been a poignant reflection about choice and moral responsibility, which could have echoed the ferry sequence in The Dark Knight. If the people couldn't trust their government, and they couldn't trust Batman, they would have to trust each other, or eat each other alive.

For a movie titled "The Dark Knight Rises" he never really rises at all. He goes from a idolized avenger at the end of Batman Begins, to a villanous vigilante at the end of The Dark Knight, and then, rather than rising to a point at or above his simple hero identity and becoming a symbol (which mind you has been the glue and major theme of the entire trilogy), he simply disappears. WEAK.

Regardless of how well it was executed, it was just awkward and missed many opportunities to shine in the same regard as The Dark Knight.

 

[Cerrax]

1) Movie magic, I guess. It's possible that he ejected while still in Gotham. There was plenty of cover for him to do so. Auto poilot would have done the rest.

2) He was trained by the League of Shadows and was already shown have been quite proficient before Gul found him. I don't think it's too hard to imagine how he good back into the city. He is Batman after all, suit or no suit.

3) Movie magic, yet again. But during the night, he may have had a chance to do it. Otherwise, it's not plot essential and I'm willing to just accept it as movie magic.

4) Talia was doing it to avenge her father. She was no longer part of the League anyway. Her goal was the complete her father's plan, even it was irrational. Obviously punishing Wayne was a big part of that.

5) Their attack on the stock exchange was the collapse Wayne Enterprises. The land developer character helped make that possible. Talia was undercover, so he was not aware that he'd already been double crossed when she stepped in to take over the company. He thought he was going to get the company. It was only going to happen if the shareholders and board demanded the change. The only real 'terror' attack was part of the master plan which would have climaxed with the bomb. The relative insanity of that master plan is fully in keeping with the superhero genre.

6) In Dark Knight a member of the staff at Wayne Enterprises worked out that 'RnD' was producing the same weapons and devices that Batman uses. He was never dealt with, but perhaps he is part of the reason Talia knew where the armoury was. The armoury was below the Wayne building however, am I right? Putting two and two together wouldn't have been impossible.

Also, this is effectively the League of Shadows, so I expect that they have the means to track Wayne or Fox's movements, or the movements of various parts shipments and so on. Honestly, there are many ways they could have found the armoury, and none of them are exciting to watch outside a detective movie.

Finally, the film was from Wayne's POV so in order to show the process of finding the armoury, it would have reveal the enemy and remove the surprise. Bane or Talia could have laughed maniacally and told Wayne how they located the armoury, but it was clear that they in fact DID find it, so why would Wayne ask?

8) Talia escape the pit because she didn't fear death. That's the core of it. She was prepared to commit to her escape completely because she was not affraid of losing her life. The other inmates were not so, which is why they used the rope. However, the rope was probably what truly held them back from making that jump. Consider the leap of faith required to climb that high (falling from even half way would be fatal) and then making the jump. Such a test is exactly something the League would appreciate. Regardless, the whole concept is a poetic one and not intended for such a mechanical analysis.

9) Well, many people claimed that Elvis Presley didn't really die, and how does society and media treat those people? That's what would happen to anybody claiming to have seen Wayne. The man died somehow, probably in the terrorist attack, and he his grave is there for all to see. There'd be all manner of tributes and monuments made for the months to come. Biographies, television specials. The whole world would be well and truly sold on his death. Imagine if you saw Steve Jobs tomorrow at a cafe. Who would believe you?

And if you are talking about the end restaurant epilogue, bear in mind they were in a foreign county and to be honest, Wayne was well known for sure, but not a media personality. He was a household name, perhaps, but not a household face. And arguably, France (that was were the end scene was, right?) has its own billionaires, who are still alive and not bankrupt.

10) Alfred didn't give up on Wayne. Wayne kicked him out. Alfred sacrificed his friendship with Wayne so as to try to save him from his pain. That's not giving up. That's beautiful. Wayne eventually realised that, thankfully.

1, 2, 3) I agree. The only answer is "because he's the goddamn Batman". Deception, stealth, theatricality are all traits that we innately link with Batman, regardless of how plausible they actually are.

4) With all the tedious verbal exposition going on, don't you think they could have made this a bigger point? Talia's motivation seems half-hearted at best.

5) I don't buy the "because its a superhero movie" crap. The whole revelation of Nolan's movies is that he foregoes the classic evil-for-evil's-sake, impossibly planned and executed insanity schemes for a more gritty, plausible reality. To place the major conflict and plot device squarely in this defense is ludicrous, because Nolan's Batman has specifically removed these instances from the franchise up to this point.

6) First of all, Lucius specifically states in The Dark Knight Rises that he removed R&D and all of Batman's gear from records after the near-blackmail of Bruce. And if the League of Shadows were to receive this information, wouldn't it create a radical dramatic irony to watch Bane and the League burrow beneath Wayne's feet unbeknownst to him? Rather than a simple "OMG! They found Batman's stash!".

7) Yeah this is pretty dumb. I mean he obviously had room for it in the Bat Cave. Why put it on a building in plain sight?

8) I get that the rope is a metaphor for hope and fear, but it was cheesy and rehashed ideas that were well-covered in Batman Begins.

9)Ducard and Falconi both mention that Bruce would have to go "1000 miles away just to meet someone who didn't know your name" in Batman Begins, implying that escaping his own celebrity would not be easy. yet he sits in a restaurant after his "death" and no one bats an eyelash?

10) Regardless of whether Alfred gave up on Wayne (note: he did), the "reunion of Aflred and Wayne was underwhelming to say the least.

 

[Tono Makt]

My questions (WITH SPOILERS):

1) How does Batman survive the fusion bomb at the end? He was shown to be in the cockpit of his plane mere seconds before detonation, and the blast radius was at least 6 miles. They said "autopilot", but I didn't see him eject in time. Also, he would then land in the icy water, in full body-armor, and either sink like a rock or freeze to death in minutes. Plus, if he swam to shore, someone would've spotted him.

Minor issue, but one that is valid nonetheless. Had this movie been a stronger movie then this point would be overlooked and handwaved as "He's Batman." In this movie, there needed to be something other than "Autopilot" to help explain this. Even if was something like an eject button for the Batsuit. (which isn't to say that an eject button for the batsuit is a good idea, just one that would help stall the problem of swimming in the full batsuit.)

2) How did Batman get INTO Gotham in the first place? He was stripped of all his gear and belongings and Gotham was entirely cut off from the rest of the world. How'd he get into the city?

This is a fairly minor quibble, which I don't think really needs to be explained. There's ice connecting the island to the mainland, which is good enough for a character like Batman.

3) The giant, flaming bat-signal on the bridge. Yeah, it's cool and all, but when did Bruce get the time to climb the bridge (monitored by both police and criminals) and prep it with gasoline all over... and then calmly wait at the bottom for Gordon's execution to spring the signal?

A minor quibble, though it does have more validity to it than the question about how Batman got back into Gotham. I'm willing to let it go, but I wouldn't be adverse to a bit of an explanation.

4) If the goal of the League of Shadows with Ra's Al Ghul was to eliminate the problems of Gotham by destroying the city, and 8 years later Gotham is practically crime-free, citizens are living peacefully, and Batman himself is retired, why on earth would they attack? Gotham HAD peace. They're the ones that caused all the problems.

My take on that issue is that the League of Shadows is not connected to this directly. The destruction of Gotham is a way for Talia to avenge and honour her father, and is no longer a direct action taken by the League of Shadows.

5) If the true aim of the League, Talia, and Bane was to dupe Bruce into giving them the bomb, why did they jeopardize their plan by staging massive terrorist attacks that served no real purpose other than to get their men killed and put their plan at risk?

This question can't be answered to any decent degree. My take on it is that Talia staged those attacks via Bane as part of her plan to break Batman.

6) How did they know where Batman's armory was? The only ones that knew were both Bruce and Lucius Fox.

This issue is somewhat answered in the movie; Bane, via Daggett, has access to a great deal of blueprints for much of Gotham. He has also been a member of the Board of Governors for an unknown length of time, and has plans to take it over via stock and other legal ways. It is a small leap to him finding out about Lucius Fox's old job, seeing odd things on blueprints (for example, having far too much of a foundation for what the building needs in one location. Or that there are power lines running through an area marked "Boiler Room" or some such.) then putting two and two together.

7) Batman's plane seriously was just camped out at the top of a building for nearly a year? He didn't even take it back to the cave. He just left it out in the open under a suspicious looking tarp and nobody found it?

That was rather silly, I agree whole heartedly.

8) It may not be a plothole, but does the movie seriously expect me to think that a 10 year old girl has the strength and will to crawl out of a hole in the ground, but none of these strong, full-grown men could do it? Or, for that matter, they couldn't just build a ladder or something out?

Another decent question. The entire aspect of the cops underground for 4 months drove me nuts and I decided not to suspend my disbelief around it.

9) People know who Bruce Wayne is. He's a rich, famous billionaire playboy. If Bill Gates faked his death and was then spotted in public, you'd think someone would notice.

Not necessarily. Also, they were far from Gotham at the time - somewhere in Europe, I believe. It is well within the realm of believably that Bruce Wayne could walk around in public without being recognized in Europe. I would imagine that if he was to simply dress like a normal guy and walk around Gotham, most people wouldn't put two and two together; much of what goes into our recognizing someone is them acting in a manner we expect them to act. Bruce Wayne getting out of a Porche and going into a 5 star restaurant is going to make people go "Bruce Wayne!". Bruce Wayne driving a used Honda Civic into a McDonalds drivethru and ordering a Big Mac meal with a coupon isn't going to make people think of Bruce Wayne.

10) "You won't give up on me, will you Alfred?" "Never." -Batman Begins. Alfred totally gives up on him. Dammit, Alfred!

I took that as Tough Love from Alfred, but I think it was done very poorly. I had to actually sit back and think about what I thought Nolan was trying to do, and decided that it was supposed to be tough love. But I understand why it is seen as Alfred giving up on him - and I could be wrong with my interpretation. It could be Alfred giving up on Bruce.


All in all, I'm vastly amused that Bob was so gung ho on the Avengers and so down on TDKR. But I guess it comes down to expectations; we expected that the Avengers was going to screw it up, and it didn't. Ergo it is a great movie. We expected that TDKR was going to be a great movie, and it wasn't. Ergo it is a bad movie. TDKR is a meal from a Steakhouse, but the meat is overcooked, the potato was too small, the steaksauce was ketchup and the waiter was unprofessional. The Avengers was a Double Quarter Pounder meal from McDonalds that lived up to the standards of McDonalds.

I'd still rather eat the meal at the steakhouse than a meal from McDonalds.

 

[Ledan]

I would add that it was too easy to predict. And suffered from overdramatizing at the end. Did Gordon really need to drop the jamming device? It adds nothing to the movie, because we know that that thing has to go in there. There is nothing else that they have done that could prevent the bomb from blowing up, it's unecessary and doesn't increase the drama because the drama can't go any higher at that point.

Batman kinda killed a dude too...... the one driving the truck.

There was no development of Catwoman and Batman as lovers, feel like it would have been better for them just to be partners in crime-fighting.

Alfred doesn't really feel like Batman Alfred. + Bruce Wayne is dead, a disguise Batman uses.

EDIT: And how does Wayne get past the: You are broken, don't go skydiving. And even if that is "He's Batman", how does punching vertebrate back into a spine work? And what happened to his limp in prison?

 

[Srhodes]

The thing about The Dark Knight Rises is that it's a movie that upon a second viewing... makes more sense than the first.

Take that "passage of time" deal. The movie is CONSTANTLY telling you and showing you how much time has passed. At one point the season changes to reflect this. At another Bruce is watching the television in his prison and it shows how many days have passed. Gordon and company are ALWAYS talking about how much time has passed and how much more time they have until the bomb goes off.

And one thing I HAVE to point out that is also overlooked. Bruce Wayne used a cane at the start of the movie, but did everyone suddenly forget when he put that brace on halfway through so that he wouldn't actually NEED said Cane?

The other thing that is actually quite well explained (at least a second time through) is how the villains are usually ahead of the others. This is because when you view a second time knowing Miranda is really Talia... you start to notice a few things. Such as the fact that EVERY time Gordon and company hatch a plan... she happens to be in the area. She's not always actively talking, but she IS actively listening--she's in frame, listening to the plans and everything. How does Gordon find himself before the sentencing with Crane? Because Talia leads him to the wrong truck to track. How do Bane's men know that Blake is helping cops out of the underground? Because they were discussing this plan in front of Talia who could've easily given the order to stop him. The second time you see this it's a whole lot easier because when you know the twist with Talia it's actually obvious to see the, "How are they always one step ahead?" The reason it's not noticeable the first time is because when the reveal is made you don't always think BACK to the scenes where the bad guys were one step ahead.

Even with Selina Kyle certain things are clear. She's hired at the beginning to nab Bruce's fingerprints by the same guys who paid Bane and gave him everything he wanted. How easily could it have been for them to also utilize Selina since she's already kind of working for them?

But one thing I do think people are getting wrong. The Dark Knight doesn't rise twice in this film. He only rises once. The beginning of that rise is when Bruce finally climbs out of the pit. The "rise" being referred to is the rise of a legend. Certainly Batman has "fallen" at the end of The Dark Knight but you seem to think that the rise is his return and that his second rise is climbing out of the pit. But there aren't two rises. When Batman returns he hasn't been "broken" yet. Thus the turning point that makes him strive to rise in the first place. He hasn't just fallen--he's been broken. He has to rise from that. And when he climbs out of the pit this is what begins the Legend that the movie ends on. When Batman returns to Gotham and that symbol appears on the skyscraper to let Gotham know he's back and he's ready to fight for them THAT'S the rise.

And of course... Bruce hearing about the child of Ra's Al Ghul. It's important to understand that Bruce actually DOES deduce this for himself. The hallucination is there to emphasize a fear that Bruce has. The fear that he won't be able to save Gotham. No one at any point mentions the NAME of Ra's Al Ghul's child throughout the entire story. Bruce clearly puts it together for himself and just assumes that everyone is referring to Ra's Al Ghul because they keep talking about a child that climbed out of the pit. Bruce deduces it must be Bane because Bane isn't in the pit. Remember, Bruce doesn't know that Ra's came back and saved Bane until he is stabbed by Talia. He is only left to assume that the child of Ra's Al Ghul climbed out of the pit but no one mentions it was a girl (they don't even refer to the sex of the child). Thus, Bruce just assume it was Bane.

Lastly, I don't think the Robin bit was actually a joke. I think that was just an Easter Egg. I don't know anyone who really saw it as a joke, so to speak, or even laughed so much as they saw it as a clever reference. A sort of bone to fans, if you will. But it didn't come off like a joke to me. I don't now anyone who, ya know, laughed or thought it was funny. They did that sort of gasp when they realize they understand something that others may not. Like they're in on some big secret.

But the big thing here is that you say "The Dark Knight," was mostly free of this stuff. Uh, no it wasn't. In fact, The Dark Knight suffers from some of the same problems. Including the, "How is the Joker always one step ahead?" And it ESPECIALLY suffers from the, "We need to explain everything." In The Dark Knight Rises we understand Natalia overhears a LOT of things and can easily foil things. We don't always know how The Joker can, however. For instance... WHEN does he have time to rig the ferries and HOW is he able to do it without ANYONE in the entire city noticing? How does Batman find Harvey Dent at the end of the movie? Or even how does he find Harvey Dent when he's threatening Thomas Schiff? The movie never really explains. Or how about when Batman leaps after Rachel from the pent house and just leaves The Joker up there will all those guests--including Harvey Dent who is hidden away (but we don't know where)? The movie just cuts away to the next scene but we're just made to assume things are okay. And perhaps the most mind bending of all is when The Joker is finally caught. For a guy who doesn't have a plan it's pretty odd that he plans his capture and escape with the man who knows all about the mobs bank accounts. Even Gordon remarks, "The Joker planned to be caught!" He not only has to know that Harvey Dent isn't really Batman, but also know that Batman will actually come to try and save him. Then he has to know he'll be caught whilst also putting a cell phone in a henchmen and knowing that he'll have to detonate it. And he seems to know he can detonate it without killing himself... but will kill everyone else. Likewise, that interrogation room scene... it's unclear how Batman actually gets in there. He's just, ya know, there. And it's unclear how Gordon knows he's in there. Does Batman just wait in the interrogation room? It's not that any of this isn't planned or anything, it's that you have to really suspend your disbelief and accept A LOT of coincidences and things falling into place for some of The Dark Knight's biggest action moments to really work.

Also, Batman somehow rigs that sonar in a strangely short amount of time while also somehow knowing that everyone must've gotten a new phone in Gotham or something so that the technology could be used. Technology that Lucius Fox developed but manages to be in every other phone in Gotham.

And let's not forget, The Dark Knight also does quite a bit of explaining as well. For instance, The Joker is pretty much explained to us three times. Alfred explains that some people just like to watch the world burn, The Joker explains he's a dog chasing cars and Dent explains that the Joker is just a dog off his leash. They all amount to the same explanation, but we hear it three times total. The Dark Knight literally has to explain the philosophy of the villain to the audience--and they do it more than once. Even Alfred has to explain to Batman what the sacrifice of being Batman is... meaning that even in The Dark Knight Bruce STILL has to learn what being Batman is about. Hell, Gordon even explains at the very end WHY the movie is called The Dark Knight. Ya know, in case it wasn't obvious.

I just don't understand why in Rises it's suddenly something to take note of but in The Dark Knight it was all ingenious plotting. And keep in mind I actually like The Dark Knight slightly more... I just can't understand why THOSE things were suddenly not a big deal. The overt explaining of plot points in The Dark Knight doesn't suddenly not exist. And while The Dark Knight Rises explains a lot... so did Batman Begins (the ENTIRE plot is literally spelled out for the audience--especially during the moment where the train is heading to Wayne Tower where Ra's Al Ghul's plot is explained... twice within ten minutes). So I can't say the problems WEREN'T there for The Dark Knight. Perhaps better plotted but they were most certainly not non-existent.

And I liked all three movies a great deal, mind you. But here's what I think actually happened when it came to The Dark Knight Rises. See, when The Dark Knight was hitting theaters there were no per-conceived expectations about it. Certainly Batman Begins had a core audience at that point, but no ones expectations of The Dark Knight were exactly increased BECAUSE of Batman Begins. Thus when it came out and became a phenomenon... it was actually a surprise. A HUGE surprise. It went on to make more money than anyone predicted it would make and went on to be labeled the greatest super hero movie of all time. It then went on to be called The Greatest Film of All Time by people... who actually seemed to mean it. Thus, expectations for the third film were through the roof and I don't think some people could possibly have their expectations met in any way. This is because The Dark Knight Rises is being compared to The Dark Knight instead of being allowed to stand on its own. So people are harder here because they expect the same kind of phenomenon they got from The Dark Knight... and it just wasn't going to happen. I mean, how do you follow up what is said to be, ahem, "The Greatest Comic Book Movie of all time?" You kinda... can't. At least not with something BETTER.

No, it doesn't appear MovieBob Hated it. It just appears he had nitpicks based on incredibly high expectations. I don't see much issue with that. Doesn't mean I agree or that it isn't worth discussing, though. But I DO think that a second viewing of the movie really helps some moments because you realize just how easy it is to miss certain things. Or how some things actually make more sense upon knowing just what will happen. It gives you a chance to focus on other moments.

 

[FoolKiller]

Did none of the people who investigated the crashed plane think that it was a bit odd that a plane had managed to travel several miles without wings or a tail?

I was wondering that too. I also wonder how a nuclear explosion with a six mile radius doesn't have fallout and radiation issues come back to affect Gotham. That to me was a much more annoying bullshit moment.

 

[Andrich]

The first Batman/Bane fight was perfect, in my opinion. Bane, in the film at least, was overly talkative(not that I minded), and had a passionate hatred of batman. So OF COURSE he would gleefully inform Batman that his tactics won't work, as he executes them. He's basically taunting him before he breaks his spine.