Lack of Gay Character Options in RPGs "A Shame," Says BioWare Producer

[Mutie]

Many people don't want to see that sh_t. Same goes for pedophilia, bestiality, mutilation and any number of other perversions.

I think the predominant issue is that the voices of unnatural perversions such as this character ^ have a terrible tendency to drown out the real human beings who want everyone to be involved in the things that bring them happiness.

 

[freedash22]

Lack of gay characters sucks, but the lack of anyone actually being able to write relationships in games is the reason why we don't have them. Not discrimination.

I'd rather relationships not be mentioned at all than to be written as poorly as Bioware write them.

I second this. I think the issue with Cameron Lee's statement is the lack of good writing there is to gay characters. Having played DA:O and DA2, I found that the gay romance options have always seemed so forced, ham-fisted and awkward. I remember my character talking to Zevran casually and all of a sudden boom! No mature pacing and complexity, just straight out have-gay-relationship-now-coz-reasons. I commend Bioware for trying but they need to cut it out if they can't write this well because it makes the gay characters seem very emo and whiny. It was a good try, but Zevran and Anders DESERVED better writing-- and the games didn't do them justice.

I think Cameron missed it with his statement. What is shameful about gay characters is not that they are few in games, or that the technology we have today should merit more, it is that in games such as Dragon Age, they are poorly-written. This should be the focus. Not just having them in EVERY RPG for the sake of it. I long to find a game where the protagonist is gay and VERY well-written.

 

[spartandude]

I remember my character talking to Zevran casually and all of a sudden boom! No mature pacing and complexity, just straight out have-gay-relationship-now-coz-reasons.

??

Ever heard of bisexuality? He was into other guys so when/if the Warden expresses interest in him he's willing to have a go. I do agree most relationships in Bioware games are pretty badly written (although i liked Alistair's) but that wasnt an example, even if i generally dont like Zevran.

 

[Solbasa]

Gonna look at this from a different direction for a second, since I'm kind of surprised nobody brought it up yet.

I think the sexuality issue was handled particularly well in Persona 4 (a JRPG, not a western RPG, but it's still an RPG and the original article didn't specify). It has Kanji Tatsumi and Naoto Shirogane. Kanji is a guy who has conflicting feelings about his sexuality, and Naoto is (*SPOILERS*) a girl who is literally about to undergo a sex change operation when you reach the end of her dungeon, due to her dissatisfaction with being a girl and her vision of the ideal detective as a man.

It should be noted that, outside of his initial meeting, Kanji is never overtly marked by the game as gay, but if you max out his Social Link in the correct way the (male) protagonist can enter a romantic relationship with him, just like he can with any of the female characters. Other than this, Kanji is kept ambiguous, aside from his fawning over Naoto, even when he thinks she is a guy. His entire story, both in his dungeon and in his Social Link, is about his search for acceptance - he is rejected by the male community because of his feminine tastes (such as sewing and textile crafts, since his family owns a textile shop), and he is rejected by the female community because he's a guy. However, he still possesses considerable machismo, and is introduced to the player after he "crushes" a biker gang near his home. Hell, Persona 4 even goes so far as to make humour using his sexuality, with Yosuke frequently making jokes about it and Kanji's desire to touch Teddie's fur becoming running jokes as the game goes on. This already makes it more progressive than most other games, by not just including a gay character, but making humour with it without being insulting about it.

 

[Ramzal]

I generally would prefer well written characters period. Gay or straight? I don't tend to care until their sexuality either way becomes the main basis of their character. At that point, I get very bored. I don't care who you want in your bed, but if you are boring, you are boring.

 

[Karadalis]

You know, I absolutely LOVE being reminded of my estrangement from half of my family while playing video games that acknowledge the existence of my sexual orientation! When will developers realize that one of my favorite pastimes is reminiscing over the 14 years of rotting relations with my dad's side that started with the first time I took a girlfriend over to their house to meet them? I really wish that straight gamers could share in the fun and laughter that only a decade of emotional and physical abuse from family members can bring.

You know what else is a blast? Making special arrangements with funeral homes when an extended relative dies so that you can say goodbye without the risk of bodily harm! That's one of the funnest parts of being an outcast lesbian. It's like skinny dipping - everyone should do it at least once so that, when they're old and grey, they don't look back on their lives and wonder why they didn't take more chances.

Still, at the very least, if a game drudges up enough pain from the deepest parts my soul, I can take comfort in the fact that, as the game's hero, I can overcome my sorrows in a digital world that has no bearing whatsoever on real life.

Oh!!! As a bonus, maybe game devs can arrange for someone to break into my house while I'm playing and hold a knife to my throat, like what happened to me last year after an incident at a club that had everything to do with my sexual orientation. I've been DYING to relive that day!

Ha ha! Dying? Knife to throat? Get it?

I can't wait to buy a game with that level of realism!

Wow... really? Seriously?

Racism? Psh.. who cares, put it in the game.

Religious fanatism? Psh.. who cares, put it in the game.

Classism? Psh... who cares, put it in the game.

Sexism, rape? Psh.. who cares, put it in the game.

Prejudice against gay people?! HOW DARE YOU PUT THAT INTO YOUR GAME! THIS REMINDS ME ABOUT MY OWN ISSUES!

Screw everyone else but yourselfe right? Talk about double standards...

I mean its not like we could give gay characters the ability in the game to overcome these odds or use the game to teach straight people how wrong prejudice against gay people is by portraying gay people in a positive light despite the biggotry they have to face in the game....

Naaaaah... lets simply pretend that a world like dragon age where theres all these above mentioned issues exist... simply doesnt have prejudice against homosexuals...

Also your personal sob stories? tragic, but please refrain from using them as a tool in arguments.. cause frankly no one gives a fuck about anyone elses hardships.. and dont anyone pretend it aint so. Everyone has their own personal luggage to carry around.

Im pretty sure that theres alot of people who dont want to be reminded of all the bad things that happen in real life... like violence against innocents.. rape... child abuse.. racism and all the other horrible things that people do to each other... yet it is completly fine to have them in games nowadays.

Heck if we applied your standards to all games guess GTA would never have happened...

And you know what? Its good that games use these real life issues in them... cause problems dont go away by pretending they dont exist. They only go away if they are brought to the attention of people. And games are one of the best ways to hold a mirror infront of people and make them think for a bit.

So if you cant stand a game treating this topic then thats to bad for you. But if we follow your logic then no issue should ever be a topic in a game or work of fiction and all fictional world should be paradise... but im sure you will find someone whos also offended by that.. so better have no games at all.

 

[JimB]

Wow...really? Seriously?

Racism? Psh...who cares, put it in the game.

Religious fanaticism? Psh...who cares, put it in the game.

Classism? Psh...who cares, put it in the game.

Sexism, rape? Psh...who cares, put it in the game.

Ten Foot Bunny did not say any of the things you just attributed to her. Nor did she imply them. Please stop putting words into another person's mouth if you cannot correctly parse their statements. Further, nothing obligates Ten Foot Bunny to fight on behalf of any issues other than the ones she chooses to, so please do not act like you have any right to determine what her priorities ought to be.

Also, your personal sob stories? Tragic, but please refrain from using them as a tool in arguments, because frankly, no one gives a fuck about anyone else's hardships.

Many people care about another person's hardships. That you think no one else does says much more about you than it does about the rest of the world.

Heck, if we applied your standards to all games, I guess Grand Theft Auto would never have happened.

And? What's the great loss there? A few thousand people don't get to spend a few hours of their lives playing one, specific video game out of trillions. I doubt the march of history would come to a stop over that temporal anomaly.

It's good that games use these real life issues in them, because problems don't go away by pretending they don't exist. They only go away if they are brought to the attention of people.

Please provide proof of your assertion that video games have improved any given social injustice in the real world.

 

[Longing]

Naaaaah... lets simply pretend that a world like dragon age where theres all these above mentioned issues exist... simply doesnt have prejudice against homosexuals...

well, a lot of homophobia actually comes from various religious factions to my understanding so it would actually make sense in a world like DA, which has completely different sets of Gods and beliefs, to actually not have a problem with homosexuality. It's just super exhausting even in a game for people to have issues with your sexuality, so I actually find this a super refreshing change.

Bioware isn't looking to change bigots' minds, just trying to please other kind of gamers than the ones who usually get their way.

 

[Ten Foot Bunny]

Racism? Psh.. who cares, put it in the game.

Religious fanatism? Psh.. who cares, put it in the game.

Classism? Psh... who cares, put it in the game.

Sexism, rape? Psh.. who cares, put it in the game.

Prejudice against gay people?! HOW DARE YOU PUT THAT INTO YOUR GAME! THIS REMINDS ME ABOUT MY OWN ISSUES!

Screw everyone else but yourselfe right? Talk about double standards...

Yeah, because that's EXACTLY what I said! Fuck everyone who isn't me. I'm SO glad you found the hidden meaning in my post, and were able to expose my racist, sexist, classist, and pro-theocratic agendas.

It's a huge weight off my mind that I no longer have to hide the blackness in my heart. Now everyone knows the real me.

Phew! That was really close.

(Seriously, though, this is a thread about gay characters and so I focused on gay characters. Anything else would have been irrelevant and nobody was bringing up other social issues that video games could potentially question. Of course I care about more issues than gay representation, but there's a time and a place for those discussions - this thread, at this moment, is neither.)

Also your personal sob stories? tragic, but please refrain from using them as a tool in arguments.. cause frankly no one gives a fuck about anyone elses hardships.. and dont anyone pretend it aint so.

No-one cares? Please speak for yourself. Your post may display a lack empathy, but I ALWAYS take into consideration how my responses will make people feel. I also listen to the stories they tell because I like to know where they come from and what may have influenced their thinking. It also gives me a guide for how to respond in a way that won't hurt or offend them (if I disagree) or, more often, how to make them laugh (which is what I prefer to do).

Everyone has their own personal luggage to carry around.

This is very true. And this is also why I strive to comport myself in a manner that doesn't ADD to the weight of their luggage. We can never know how much is going on inside of another person's head or how close they may be to their breaking point. That's WHY it's important to listen to others' stories and care about the things they say. Why risk being the person who pushes another's soul over the edge?

Im pretty sure that theres alot of people who dont want to be reminded of all the bad things that happen in real life... like violence against innocents.. rape... child abuse.. racism and all the other horrible things that people do to each other... yet it is completly fine to have them in games nowadays.

In games based in real life, yes! Fine! Include things in those games that we face IN REALITY. If people want to get offended by the gritty depiction of a topic in a game that advertises itself as a mirror version of the world in which we exist, then I agree that it's THEIR problem.

Heck if we applied your standards to all games guess GTA would never have happened...

Please see what I just wrote above. Re-read it if you must. You completely misstated my "standards" and the entire meaning of my earlier post, then based your GTA comment on that misinterpretation. If GTA hadn't happened because of what you THOUGHT I said, then we'd have a case of societal censorship.

I'm going to make this perfectly clear and unmistakable:

I do not, in ANY way, advocate for censorship

And you know what? Its good that games use these real life issues in them... cause problems dont go away by pretending they dont exist. They only go away if they are brought to the attention of people. And games are one of the best ways to hold a mirror infront of people and make them think for a bit.

We're in complete agreement here: how are we, as a society, supposed to triumph over bigotry when it's relegated to a permanent place under the rug? Bigotry absolutely should be a subject that video games tackle because it's an ideal medium to do just that. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think we need to bring real-life stigmas and attitudes into EVERY game that includes a concept that, in real life, bears stigma and the weight of prejudiced attitudes.

For example, when you say:

Naaaaah... lets simply pretend that a world like dragon age where theres all these above mentioned issues exist... simply doesnt have prejudice against homosexuals...

I wonder, WHY?! Why does the world of Dragon Age need to have prejudice against homosexuals? Simply because the game allows for homosexual relationships? Or because it's a fantasized version of what appears to be an earlier time in the history of western civilization, set in a world that's reminiscent of a geographic region in which, during the alluded-to time period, homosexuality was a capital offense?

Dragon Age and other games of its sort exist purely for entertainment. It doesn't try to dissect modern issues or shed light on them. However, GTA does (though, in my opinion, it hasn't done a good job of it since Vice City). If people are upset that you face no stigma for being in a homosexual relationship in Dragon Age, they should be rioting in the streets over how you can conduct your relationships in Fable.

(Okay, maybe "rioting" isn't the most tactful term to use this week, but c'est la vie!)

Let some games strive for public awareness of inequality and give players the thrill of rising above it, but please, let's not belittle games that allow players to experience life as a minority without consequence. Many of us who aren't straight, myself included, are as effortlessly happy with our identities as the straight people who get to take their almost-universal acceptance for granted. Despite prejudice (which is shrinking according to many national polls) we don't sit around wallowing in misery. Let games also teach THAT lesson without distracting players with depictions of the bigotry we sometimes endure.

 

[nondescript]

2) One might as well argue "it's a shame there aren't more chances for you to RP a disabled character, or a tech support guy at work, or a Mormon." These are also large demographics that we don't let others pretend to be, or let those who are be in game. Is it a shame I can't play a paraplegic LDS techie? Or a blind Muslim chef? There are many things we are in RL and can't be in game. Excluding homosexuality is unfair, yes, but so is including it but not any number of other ignored demographics.

It's a big deal because not only is sexuality a major part of a person's identity, but non-straights have been persecuted and, hand in hand with that, depictions of them have been censored and villainized for generations.

Also your analogy is broken in that, while again sexuality is a major part of a person's identity, it is not something that is tied to a particular place or time. It is a broad trait more akin to left-handedness than a particular job or belief system. Though you are right roleplaying as a disabled character is something that would be interesting to explore, but I think it would need a lot more work to be done properly because it affects so many more basic actions a character could take. In addition to how others would react to said character, and the fact that usually non-horror games try to make the player feel empowered rather than handicapped.

So you are saying that being gay is more a part of who you are than the color of your skin? Where and how you grew up? What you, metaphysically, believe in? It seems to me they are all important factors of defining the way you see the world. As for persecution, both Muslims and Mormons have been slandered, villainized, and misrepresented in media for as long as there has been an "us" to point at "them."

That argument sounds dangerously close to 'well, if we start including the gays, then everyone will want a go.'

My argument is more streamlined: We have started including gays, and everyone deserves a go. I'm not saying they can't have what they earned, but I am standing up and saying, "The LGTB is being represented finally! So who else is the court of public opinion keeping silent? Lets get them up here too."

Why is a call for MORE equality for other groups being taken as an attack on a minority? Particularly since I never said they should show up less?

 

[JimB]

Why is a call for more equality for other groups being taken as an attack on a minority? Particularly since I never said they should show up less?

If I had to guess, I'd say it's your use of the phrase "You might as well argue for." I've only ever heard that in dismissive terms, describing the futility or uselessness of a thing, so it has a certain connotation to me.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

I honestly get tired of this whole thing. Here are two scenarios...

First scenario: Have a world full of characters that you play and interact with... as well as your choice of the type of character you play. You can choose to pursue characters as you choose, and have a relationship with them of your choosing. Characters may or may not have the same orientation as your choice, which via dialog with said character, you can find out. Explore and get to know your characters, see where it goes!

OR

Second scenario: characters run around announcing to the world, "I'm gay, I'm gay!!!" with big neon signs, or characters you interact with from previous games suddenly become aggressively homosexual, pursuing you with screwed up dialog options that have you either accept the advances or even if you try to find the best dialog available to let them down as nicely as possible, they hate you and you take a major hit with the relationship between your character and theirs.. (IE Anders)

Its ridiculous in the way they are handling it in Dragon Age. Honestly, the best attempt I have seen thus far would have to be Mass Effect 3. It was handled in a way that it is what it is, and the character didnt run around with speaking in ways that come off as pandering. It was what it was, and if you so CHOSE to pursue it, you could. If not, all was cool with the character and I felt like he was an awesome addition to the Mass Effect cast.

In other words, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having gay, straight, or bi characters in any gaming universe or RPG. Just dont make it blatant and forced, for petes sake! I feel like that is just as disrespectful, honestly. Obviously, Bioware is capable of doing it all right, as seen in the relationships in ME3, so they should have their DA crowd use that as a foundation to build upon, DEFINITELY not the way it was handled in Dragon Age 2.

 

[Ratty]

2) One might as well argue "it's a shame there aren't more chances for you to RP a disabled character, or a tech support guy at work, or a Mormon." These are also large demographics that we don't let others pretend to be, or let those who are be in game. Is it a shame I can't play a paraplegic LDS techie? Or a blind Muslim chef? There are many things we are in RL and can't be in game. Excluding homosexuality is unfair, yes, but so is including it but not any number of other ignored demographics.

It's a big deal because not only is sexuality a major part of a person's identity, but non-straights have been persecuted and, hand in hand with that, depictions of them have been censored and villainized for generations.

Also your analogy is broken in that, while again sexuality is a major part of a person's identity, it is not something that is tied to a particular place or time. It is a broad trait more akin to left-handedness than a particular job or belief system. Though you are right roleplaying as a disabled character is something that would be interesting to explore, but I think it would need a lot more work to be done properly because it affects so many more basic actions a character could take. In addition to how others would react to said character, and the fact that usually non-horror games try to make the player feel empowered rather than handicapped.

So you are saying that being gay is more a part of who you are than the color of your skin? Where and how you grew up? What you, metaphysically, believe in? It seems to me they are all important factors of defining the way you see the world. As for persecution, both Muslims and Mormons have been slandered, villainized, and misrepresented in media for as long as there has been an "us" to point at "them."

That's not how I would put it, but in a sense yes. Because there are gay Mormons, and gay Muslims. And gay theists, gay polytheists, gay agnostics and gay atheists. LGBTs come in every color across the racial spectrum. And in every period of human history and prehistory in just about every place. So the "us vs. them" divide between LGBT and straight people is particularly thin, because no matter who "us" are there are almost certainly some LGBTs among "us" in open or in the closet from fear and/or irrational shame.

That argument sounds dangerously close to 'well, if we start including the gays, then everyone will want a go.'

My argument is more streamlined: We have started including gays, and everyone deserves a go. I'm not saying they can't have what they earned, but I am standing up and saying, "The LGTB is being represented finally! So who else is the court of public opinion keeping silent? Lets get them up here too."

Why is a call for MORE equality for other groups being taken as an attack on a minority? Particularly since I never said they should show up less?

Because that's how it sounded from the way you phrased it.

 

[Phasmal]

It's kind of funny how whether or not a game developer `wanted` to make a story about a character is only important if the character isn't a straight white dude.
Suspicious concern is suspicious.

But anyway, this guy has it right. It is a shame. I'd like to have more options, and I'd love for other people who want to be represented to have those options. Options don't hurt you.

And I'd enjoy a game with a set gay character, though I think the publishers would be too afraid of upsetting the average dudebros. And that sucks.

 

[thenoblitt]

Consider this, people don't make gay characters, because they are straight, and do not want to poorly shoe one in, like bioware does because that is what is truly disrespectful. Bioware is literally saying look at him hes gay, everyone hes gay, we have a gay guy. That is horrible. He is a person, he is not defined by his sexuality, this needs to stop.

 

[JimB]

He is a person; he is not defined by his sexuality; this needs to stop.

While I agree that defining a person by his sexuality is shallow and certainly not how I'd choose to define myself, I object to the absolutes of your tone. Some people do define themselves by their sexuality, and choosing that trait out of all the other traits they possess is no less valid or more arbitrary than the choices anyone else makes about identity.

Now, that's not to say I think fictional characters should be allowed the same latitude as real people since the fictional characters are created reflections of a real person's mind rather than someone who can make a genuine choice, but I'm just saying, it can happen and does happen that people define themselves according to their sexuality.

 

[Grace_Omega]

I love how accusations of shoe-horning and tokenism fly thick and fast whenever this topic comes up. Could someone explain to me how you'd put gay characters in a game without doing this? What exactly would it look like?

Related: "Yes but their sexuality shouldn't be a big deal", which nine times out of ten comes across as a thinly veiled version of "just as long as these gay characters don't actually do anything gay".

Related related: the sudden call for "ambiguity" so we can all pretend that the gayness isn't really there. Funnily enough this never comes up with straight characters.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

I'd rather play an RPG with fun game mechanics, interesting support characters, involving lore, and a deep, exciting world.

If I want to play a dating sim, I'll buy a f-ing dating sim. Dammit Bioware, just make actual games for Odin's sake!

 

[Hieronymusgoa]

Did I mind not being able to romance "same sex" in some RPGs? Yeah, but not much. I did like it though when it was possible due to Bioware (alas, no Alistair). Still I found it irritating how it seemed like everyone in recent Bioware games wanted to romance you as long as you were kinda nice to them. But still: I immerse myself more into RPGs when I can act the way I feel. "Being into guys as a guy" is a part of that for me. Bioware has surely not told (gay) romance in the best way it can be told but they did it and it was kind of a new and big thing. At least for my fellow LGBTs and me, I think.

Do I want more of that? Yes. Do I think every f'ing game needs that? Not at all. As long as it is there as an option when you have to chose something related to it. If you don't like it, don't play the game that way.

I still totally think it is okay if main characters aren't inherently gay. If you market something to a certain group it's your thing how you do that and if you think it works best with a hetero gal/guy, I certainly don't mind.