Lack of Gay Character Options in RPGs "A Shame," Says BioWare Producer

[Oroboros]

One of the few things I appreciate in modern Bioware is their inclusion of Homosexual relationships. That being said, they do a lot of the 'ol 'one step forward, two steps back'. While the inclusion of homosexual options is welcome, they have been cutting back on roleplaying in other areas. Heck, Dragon Age II didn't even let you play a nonhuman, and that's a game set in a series that's supposed to be a 'spiritual successor' to Baldur's Gate! Similar situation in the Mass Effect series with Shepard, and by the looks of it-the next Mass Effect game as well.

up until recently their track record on content for female Player characters wasn't stellar either.

They have always screwed over folks who want to roleplay an 'evil' character as well, and honestly, I don't see that situation getting better of late either. Almost all of their rpgs have canon endings, and as I'm sure most have noticed, they very rarely include 'evil' actions or PC's, female PC's, or nonhuman PC's.

So while I do very much appreciate Bioware leading the charge In this department, other areas of roleplay seem to be routinely left by the wayside, and in some ways Bioware seems to be regressing.

 

[james.sponge]

Lack of fun games is a shame but I guess BW doesn't care

This again...... Do Bioware devs ever think about anything else but how to include this in their games? Like seriously, they're the only ones going ape**** on the subject.

I believe it's because there isn't much in their game to keep people interested. They included gay romances, whatever, can we hear more about actual features of the game? Classes, crafting, perhaps something about the story? new introductions to the lore? something about the place we are going to explore in this instalment? Nope...

 

[Gamer87]

SMH

Is it too much to ask that creators be able to tell the stories they way the want to without having to be all inclusive of every minority/orientation/political view, etc? I'm honestly getting tired of wondering which activist group gets to pounce on the next new game.

Imagine if every game ONLY featured homosexual relationships. That's pretty what gay people deal with.

How I wish that more often the protagists and major characters could "just happen to be" gay, female, black, asian or something else different and perverse. Just like every character these days "just happens" to be a white straight human male in his thirties.

Every time someone complains that the protagonist is the same as every other protagonist, the excuse seem to be that they "just happen" to be that way.

So why not a game where 8 out of the 10 major characters are female? Or where more people are gay than straight? It would only be realistic statistically speaking.

I mean, if you populated a world with all the protagonists and major characters from every game ever made, the male to female ratio would be absurd.

I applaud Bioware for their inclusivity of us whiny, entitled minorites who want our existance to be acknowledged in games. And I don't blame them for making it a selling point. No other company is, to my knowledge, as good at this as they are.

(and by the way I hated DA2 and the characters' playersexuality, even though I understand why they did it. I find it more realistic if they have set sexualities, wich they will in DA:I. And I'm pretty sure Sera and Dorian (gay) and Iron Bull (bi) are more than twodimensional sprites running around shouting about their sexuality)

 

[Something Amyss]

Which isn't what I was saying at all, I suggested we retire the term from constructive discussions so we could be more specific.

Since "constructive" is about as meaningful as "gamer," I don't know where you're going. We should remove a vague term when discussing things in a vaguely defined manner?

I would say a larger issue is that people are trying to further pare down the concept in the first place. Specific terms largely do us a disservice. Which kind of circles back to what I was saying and you were dismissing, so....

I'm not the one incorrectly replying with irrelevant sarcasm to reasoned points.

Well, you still haven't demonstrated a reasoned point, so neither am I.

 

[Elberik]

cool cool cool. but does this actually affect the game? I'm not going to pay $60+ for a social statement.

 

[JimB]

I'm straight enough to be used as a drafting tool, so maybe my opinion is only worth so many grains of salt, but I can't help thinking that maybe gay people engaging in the escapism of playing an RPG do not do so in order to be ground down with the same pettiness and hate of the world they're playing an RPG to escape from.

Then let's get rid of racism, classism, sexism and all religious conflicts while we are at it.

I do not think you understand that my comment is in response to someone who said gay people won't feel welcome or immersed in the video game unless their characters are being discriminated against. If you want gay characters (and by extension their players) to face homophobia because you want the story to involve the character (and by extension the player) scoring a victory over that conflict, then that's fine, but please don't act like what you said has any particular bearing on what I said.

But to outright ignore the very real issue that a society like they are depicted in these fantasy medieval settings with their very conservative governments and religious structures (which would very well be opposed to same-sex relationships) just to not offend anyone is bad because it would rob the player of the experience of overcoming these odds and make ends meet so to speak.

I feel that you are making a lot of unsupported assumptions about the fictional society being crafted for the hypothetical game in question.

When it comes to Mass Effect or sci-fi settings in general, however, I have no problem with society not caring if someone is looking for a partner of the same gender. After all, it's the future and people should be more advanced not only technologically but in their cultural views too.

The Catholic Church's response to homosexuality during feudalism is not the only one, nor the default one, particularly in worlds where magic exists. Politeness is generally a function of practical survival issues (for instance, you knock on someone's door instead of just entering because if you don't announce your intention, the homeowner may decide you're an intruder and kill you), so unless the world is being specifically crafted so that people with magical ability are either immediately obvious to the eyes or else only people who engage in certain kinds of sexual behaviors can possess magical abilities, societies will probably not evolve in such a way that people will feel comfortable passing judgment on a person who might be able to turn them into toads for the presumption.

 

[Scorpid]

For me personally the issue has never been gay characters and I'm totally on board with a gay path for the PC. To me the first real test of tolerance for gamers is when we have a dedicated gay (male) main character that has a sex scene in the game and if this can sell (Also it can't be a goof of a game). I don't know if I could do that comfortably at least. I mean I could certainly close my eyes and plug my ears and just cringe through it but it could very well be a issue for me. I have no problem gay people or marriage or anything but making me interact with my IG boyfriend and then sex him up and I'm the one doing it than that changes the equation for me. But I also know this will be a necessary game to exist one day and I hope it does; until that day people that are offended a gay !OPTION! exists can stfu. They're simply wrong and selfish to be offended and can again just stfu. Seriously stfu... I mean you always have the option to simply not buy it. No one shoves Mass Effect down anyones throat and there is no country on earth that requires you to purchase media specifically because it includes homosexual overtones.

 

[UberPubert]

Since "constructive" is about as meaningful as "gamer,"

Constructive as in serving a useful purpose, building up to something greater. There can be no such dialogue regarding "gamer" because it is such a vague term and recent attempts to redefine it have been largely ignored by pop culture.

I don't know where you're going. We should remove a vague term when discussing things in a vaguely defined manner?

Who said anything about vaguely defined? I'm saying vague isn't helpful when trying to be specific and we shouldn't use it to mean anything greater than such terms as "moviegoer", I never said it should be removed.

I would say a larger issue is that people are trying to further pare down the concept in the first place.

Trying to better define the people who enjoy videogames is "a larger issue" than using the vague term "gamer" and being wrong in doing so?

Specific terms largely do us a disservice.

I don't think you understand how language works. Failure to classify groups into more specific categories can only lead to further misunderstandings, as you have so thoroughly demonstrated on your part.

 

[Ratty]

The problem comes when you make the character's defining trait as gay. I find that the character is just there to make a social commentary and nothings else. I know that this has been mentioned before but look no further than Fallout New Vegas. Veronica was a lesbian and she only mentioned it once or twice and that was it. It wasn't her defining trait it was just a extra tidbit of information to make the character feel more real.

Also known as the "token" character... yes this really grinds my gears and thanks for bringing it up.

"He/shes gay" is not something that should define the entire character, but should only matter if it comes to relationship preferences.

It would be quite amusing thought having the "hottest" female in your party turning down your advances cause shes gay and you had no idea... ofcourse there should be subtle hints beforehand that are ofcourse easaly missed and make plenty of sense hindwise...

But who are we kidding... biowares understanding of subtlety is delivered with a sledgehammer

EDITH:

Also what annoys me is that gay relationships have absolutely zero consequences in those games. Look especialy if you have a game thats the equivalent of med evil times with fairies and dragons you would expect gay couples to face ALOT of prejudice and bias from oh i dont know... EVERYONE whos not gay?

Racism in your game is no problem but we cant possibly let the player experience sexism?`

Guys this is a great oportunity for some awesome storyplay and a chance to let people experience what it means to be discriminated against.. so play it out.

No other medium could do this to the degree games could... but you simply ignore the issue and tread it like its the most normal thing to happen in such a "primitive" fantasy world.

I'm straight enough to be used as a drafting tool, so maybe my opinion is only worth so many grains of salt, but I can't help thinking that maybe gay people engaging in the escapism of playing an RPG do not do so in order to be ground down with the same pettiness and hate of the world they're playing an RPG to escape from.

Then lets ger rid of racism, classism, sexism and all religious conflicts while we are at it.

You know what.. lets take out ALL conflict out of the game since "its a fantasy world"

Would be pretty boring now wouldnt it?

Also even thought the character would face prejudice, especialy in biowaregames the main character is allways "the" hero... he/she is allways the one to save the day and to come up as the winner at the end. They are allways the characters in charge and it would allow Gay people to face these prejudices from a position of power instead of a position of powerlessness like is often the case in the real world

What it boils down to is to allow these gay chars/players to overcome this prejudice in the game. Not to create a fantasy world where all the conflicts are there.. kept for that particular one.

But to outright ignore the very real issue that a society like they are depicted in these fantasy medevil settings with their very conservative goverment and religious structures (wich would very well be oposed to same sex relationships) just to not offend anyone is bad because it would rob the player of the experience of overcoming these odds and make ends meet so to speak.

When it comes to mass effect or sci fy settings in general however i have no problem with society not caring if someone is looking for a partner of the same gender.. after all its the future and people should be more advanced not only technologically but in their cultural views too...

I believe you're missing the point of the fantasy genre, especially the type of largely escapist empowerment fantasy that Bioware, and to an extent almost all non-horror video games, deal in.

Even when you DO try to send a message through fantasy, it's not a good idea to just transplant real world problems directly there. When fantasy settings deal with bigotry (racism, homophobia etc.) it's usually in the form of "Fantastic Racism" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticRacism which is, typically, actually "species-ism". It may be an allegory for real world bigotry but it's not as direct as would be appropriate in a story set "in the real world". It's blunted, it's fantasy. One of the major benefits of fantasy settings (and many sci-fi settings) is that through metaphors like this we can approach real world issues with fresh eyes. To examine these issues free of our own baggage and preconceived notions.

To just say "gays are discriminated against in real life, therefore they should always be discriminated against in fantasy worlds to" is to miss the point of having a fantasy world in the first place.

 

[nondescript]

The argument is well-put and probably well-meant.

BUT

1) while I liked Steve Cortez and appreciated the potential love interest (not my flavor, but nice change up,) I would rather watch a hackneyed rom-com than someone's attempt to seriously dramatize a gay/lesbian relationship and have it devolve into nothing more than slash-fic.

2) One might as well argue "it's a shame there aren't more chances for you to RP a disabled character, or a tech support guy at work, or a Mormon." These are also large demographics that we don't let others pretend to be, or let those who are be in game. Is it a shame I can't play a paraplegic LDS techie? Or a blind Muslim chef? There are many things we are in RL and can't be in game. Excluding homosexuality is unfair, yes, but so is including it but not any number of other ignored demographics.

 

[Objectable]

"who cares about representation in video games, video games are meant for escapism"

how exactly is it escapism to switch from a world where white cis men are in charge to... a world where white cis men are in charge

 

[LobsterFeng]

Christ Bioware can you just come out and admit that you're done making games and just want to make dating sims from now on? I literally know nothing about the quality of Inquisition as a game itself because all I ever hear about it is "Look at how we're putting gay people in our game! Please love us SJWs!" I mean christ call me a cis lord or whatever but I honestly don't care about stuff like this at all because it won't matter if no one on Bioware is actually dedicated to making a good game with like good gameplay and stuff.

 

[Ratty]

2) One might as well argue "it's a shame there aren't more chances for you to RP a disabled character, or a tech support guy at work, or a Mormon." These are also large demographics that we don't let others pretend to be, or let those who are be in game. Is it a shame I can't play a paraplegic LDS techie? Or a blind Muslim chef? There are many things we are in RL and can't be in game. Excluding homosexuality is unfair, yes, but so is including it but not any number of other ignored demographics.

It's a big deal because not only is sexuality a major part of a person's identity, but non-straights have been persecuted and, hand in hand with that, depictions of them have been censored and villainized for generations.

Also your analogy is broken in that, while again sexuality is a major part of a person's identity, it is not something that is tied to a particular place or time. It is a broad trait more akin to left-handedness than a particular job or belief system. Though you are right roleplaying as a disabled character is something that would be interesting to explore, but I think it would need a lot more work to be done properly because it affects so many more basic actions a character could take. In addition to how others would react to said character, and the fact that usually non-horror games try to make the player feel empowered rather than handicapped.

 

[Amir Kondori]

If sexuality is a part of your story, then great, give the option. If it isn't then I don't think it needs to be spelled out what a player character's sexuality is, that is something the player fills out in their own head.

 

[Colour Scientist]

2) One might as well argue "it's a shame there aren't more chances for you to RP a disabled character, or a tech support guy at work, or a Mormon." These are also large demographics that we don't let others pretend to be, or let those who are be in game. Is it a shame I can't play a paraplegic LDS techie? Or a blind Muslim chef? There are many things we are in RL and can't be in game. Excluding homosexuality is unfair, yes, but so is including it but not any number of other ignored demographics.

That argument sounds dangerously close to 'well, if we start including the gays, then everyone will want a go.'

Whenever someone brings it up, it sounds like they're arguing that because games can't feasibly immediately represent every category of human being, they shouldn't bother to attempt more diversity. That we should just stick to only representing a very narrow group of people just in case we open the diversity floodgates.

It's similar to the argument that for a character to be gay, it has to either be a large part of their storyline or none at all, they can't just be gay 'for the sake of it' or a 'token' gay person. That unless someone can immediately make the perfect example of a gay character, it's just not worth doing or even attempting. Better make everyone straight, just in case. Yet you rarely see people saying that, as a result, the characters are heterosexual just for the sake of it.

 

[JimB]

Another one of these fucking threads. Remember when the site was about video games rather than politics?

Sexual orientation is not political. If it is, then being straight is also political.

99% of people don't give two shits about the sexuality, sex, race, WHATEVER of a character.

I would like to see the study you conducted to arrive at this number, because it is contrary to my experience and I kind of feel like you made it up.

 

[likalaruku]

Any money they might lose from protesting homophobes will be replaced by yaoi fangirls.

Lack of gay characters sucks, but the lack of anyone actually being able to write relationships in games is the reason why we don't have them. Not discrimination.

I'd rather relationships not be mentioned at all than to be written as poorly as Bioware write them.

I remember playing Dungeon Siege 2. I decided I liked the snarky elf companion, but my male character wasn't allowed to hit on him. Suddenly one of my female companions, who I swear had never shown an ounce of interest in me, asked my character if he loved her. That was so uncomfortably awkward & out of the blue. I understand the male elf from Dragon's Age pulled the same shit on a lot of unsuspecting guys.

I also remember my character in Baldur's Gate 2 had an obnoxious love interest called Aerie. My only salvation was that I could avoid taking her as a companion.

 

[QuietlyListening]

I think that's pretty cool. For me, I think it's fun to play as characters other than myself. Just having a different perspective can put a refreshing twist on an old idea. For instance, I think the Walking Dead games would have been much less rich if the main character were not black.

And giving players greater freedom to choose their identity in-game can encourage them to explore more and different options, getting a fuller experience.

So yeah. Hurray!