Ladies, how about you?

[CloudAtlas]

I think this has already been discussed upthread, but the whole "male power fantasy" thing isn't about just the sex cards - it's the whole POV of the story, which is why the fact that female characters are plot-central doesn't do anything to disprove it.

And again: that doesn't have to be an insult that the game needs defending against - as far as I'm concerned that whole power fantasy is part of what makes it entertaining. I don't understand why some people feel the need to deny that it's part of the game - it's hardly unique in having elements that are selling features for some people that are going to turn other people off.

The Witcher 2 might still not be the best example. Geralt is, in a way, perhaps only a secondary character to the story in the Witcher 2. One actor amongst many. He does tip events into the one or the other direction, sure, but is he really the hero of this story? He doesn't even care much about the course of events, can even refuse to fight the final battle, if you choose to play him that way.

 

[Seneschal]

Really? Did you even play the Witcher series? One of the main themes of the setting is fighting against discrimination, whether racial, national or gender-based. It's like the Civil Rights Movement: Medieval Edition. In The Witcher 2, most of the plot-central characters are women!

Does everyone just know the Witcher series as "that thing with the sex cards" (an easter egg in a game from 6 years ago), and flat out ignore the fact that the series itself is, in many ways, about egalitarianism?

I think this has already been discussed upthread, but the whole "male power fantasy" thing isn't about just the sex cards - it's the whole POV of the story, which is why the fact that female characters are plot-central doesn't do anything to disprove it.

And again: that doesn't have to be an insult that the game needs defending against - as far as I'm concerned that whole power fantasy is part of what makes it entertaining. I don't understand why some people feel the need to deny that it's part of the game - it's hardly unique in having elements that are selling features for some people that are going to turn other people off.

I can understand if women cannot immerse themselves because Geralt is a man - he has a pre-defined personality and background, and his gender is always in the foreground because of the nature of the setting. I, too, usually have to "settle" for a protagonist that isn't representative of me, and that often puts the story in a more movie-ish, 3rd person perspective. Sympathies there.

But to say one is "sick of it", as if The Witcher was exemplary of videogames that shun and marginalize women, is just misguided. Anyone who's paid attention to the narrative can see that.

 

[Smeatza]

As far as I'm concerned a lack of a character creation mode is a failing.
Forcing someone to play as the opposite gender is just one of thousands of ways to make it harder to empathise with your character/exclude potential players.

 

[CloudAtlas]

As far as I'm concerned a lack of a character creation mode is a failing.
Forcing someone to play as the opposite gender is just one of thousands of ways to make it harder to empathise with your character/exclude potential players.

Well, there are games that tell the story of one specific character, and tell this story well. That's not a fault in itself.

 

[itsthesheppy]

I'd rather gaming protagonists were more varied. In MMOs I tend to play as women because, frankly, there's not enough strong female protagonists in games, and I'm willing to invent one myself if I have to.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I really love the Carpe Fulgur games for female protagonists (yes I know they are a publisher) Arche from fortune summoners is an amazing character.

 

[Lilani]

So here's my question: Do you find yourself not feeling a desire to play games that do not offer a male or female protagonist choice, the way others do i.e. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout 3/NV, Skyrim and so forth?

I think in some cases, but it isn't always a total turn-off. I love the Half-Life games, TF2, Kingdom Hearts, stuff like that. But Gears of War never really looked appealing to me, and I will freely state it's because the game comes across as a hypermasculine, testosterone-fueled, circle-jerk full of mindless monster-men with tumors for necks. It's less about the choice and more about the narrative, quality, characters, and atmosphere of the game. Normally I'm used to wading into more fetishized masculinity than I normally care to deal with in order to play the games I want to play, but GoW's ratio of hypermasculinity to everything else was just too far beyond my threshold. I just look at Marcus Fenix and I don't see any soul or character there. I see a lump of awkward, diseased muscles that looks like it was picked up out of a zoo and taught how to walk without dragging its knuckles on the ground.

 

[Raikas]

The Witcher 2 might still not be the best example. Geralt is, in a way, perhaps only a secondary character to the story in the Witcher 2. One actor amongst many. He does tip events into the one or the other direction, sure, but is he really the hero of this story? He doesn't even care much about the course of events, can even refuse to fight the final battle, if you choose to play him that way.

I think we were talking The Witcher, not TW2 (although Geralt is still central to the plot in TW2, so I don't see what the distinction is there).

But to say one is "sick of it", as if The Witcher was exemplary of videogames that shun and marginalize women, is just misguided. Anyone who's paid attention to the narrative can see that.

See, I don't believe that calling something a "male power fantasy" is the same as calling it out specifically for marginalizing women (although I can see where that arguement comes from) - I think it's more about the perspective.

I think the reason The Witcher series comes up is because part of the reason the games work as well as they do for those of us who like them is because they have a set character, so it's less a question of "Why can't I make a female Geralt?" as "Why aren't there other games with either a set female character or a male character in a story with less of a male gaze?"

Even though I generally play male characters, I like character cutomization - it's just tiresome to always play the generic type. But sometimes to tell a certain kind of story (or at least to tell it well) you need a certain set base. And if that set base is a character and/or worldview that turns off some people, then that's fair - but if that setting is the default across piles of games, that becomes more problematic, even if the game(s) in question is awesome.

 

[Smeatza]

As far as I'm concerned a lack of a character creation mode is a failing.
Forcing someone to play as the opposite gender is just one of thousands of ways to make it harder to empathise with your character/exclude potential players.

Well, there are games that tell the story of one specific character, and tell this story well. That's not a fault in itself.

You are of course correct, If the writer desires the main character be a specific gender for artistic purposes who am I to dispute that?
I struggle to think of a game without a character creator mode, that wouldn't have one added if they were pandering to my specific tastes though.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

I know I as a dude have basically no business replying here, but, well,I just wanted to say that I too crave more - and better - female main characters.

 

[CloudAtlas]

The Witcher 2 might still not be the best example. Geralt is, in a way, perhaps only a secondary character to the story in the Witcher 2. One actor amongst many. He does tip events into the one or the other direction, sure, but is he really the hero of this story? He doesn't even care much about the course of events, can even refuse to fight the final battle, if you choose to play him that way.

I think we were talking The Witcher, not TW2 (although Geralt is still central to the plot in TW2, so I don't see what the distinction is there).

Yes, well, I don't know, maybe we just don't agree on semantics here. To me, a story does not pander to my "power fantasies" if my character just plays a comparably minor part in the overall events - if he is not actually powerful in that regard. To me, Geralt felt more like a broken man than a hero. On the other hand, you still get to save your damsel-in-distress, so... in the end, I don't know, I really don't. This game is, to me, quite hard to qualify regarding sexism and such.

I know I as a dude have basically no business replying here, but, well,I just wanted to say that I too crave more - and better - female main characters.

I don't know, maybe the ladies don't mind hearing that the dudes would welcome more and better female characters too.

 

[Rastrelly]

Do you find yourself not feeling a desire to play games that do not offer a male or female protagonist choice, the way others do i.e. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout 3/NV, Skyrim and so forth?

It's really depends. Some male protagonists are nothing but surrogates for the male power fantasy. So sick of it. The Witcher is a perfect example.

It's all about finding someone I can relate to regardless of gender.

The Walking Dead is a great counter example. Lee was a great male protagonist.

O____o The Witcher is based on a book series, y'know. Geralt is rather adequately represented in Witcher 1 (minus memory) and he IS a character. It would be just strange and simply wrong from setting perspective to make a possibility to play The Witcher as a female character. Because females cannot mutate into witchers adequately, y'know.

 

[jehk]

Do you find yourself not feeling a desire to play games that do not offer a male or female protagonist choice, the way others do i.e. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout 3/NV, Skyrim and so forth?

It's really depends. Some male protagonists are nothing but surrogates for the male power fantasy. So sick of it. The Witcher is a perfect example.

It's all about finding someone I can relate to regardless of gender.

The Walking Dead is a great counter example. Lee was a great male protagonist.

O____o The Witcher is based on a book series, y'know. Geralt is rather adequately represented in Witcher 1 (minus memory) and he IS a character. It would be just strange and simply wrong from setting perspective to make a possibility to play The Witcher as a female character. Because females cannot mutate into witchers adequately, y'know.

I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.

 

[Rastrelly]

I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.

Sexist?? LOL. Tell it to Milva, Yennifer, Ziri or dryads. Or Maeva. Hell, tell it to female part of wizard's council! The Witcher is sexist! The funniest thing I've heard today. Thanks. You made my day.

Just in hopes you want to listen (I doubt it but I also hope I'm wrong): there are characters in the series who are obviously sexist. Bonart, for example, or some of the kings. But Geralt, while being a fond of ladies, has never shown any sign of sexism. And heterosexuality, I must point out, is not equal to sexism. The Witcher at the same time represents a mix of middle ages and the beginning of industrialization - and relations between genders were quite different at those times. And, again, author never writes something that can be interpreted as "Yea! Burn those witches, they're unclean satanic bitches, as all the females are!" and presented as author's thought. Some characters seem to share this point of view, and this point of view was born not from nothing - historical process (politics, wars, religion etc.) was shaping things this way for more then three millenia - as it is in Witcher's World either. You can stick a "SEXIST" label on anyone or anything you want, but being sexist and describing sexism are not the same thing. At all. This way we can mark as sexist anything - thus fighting windmills.

 

[jehk]

I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.

Sexist?? LOL. Tell it to Milva, Yennifer, Ziri or dryads. Or Maeva. Hell, tell it to female part of wizard's council! The Witcher is sexist! The funniest thing I've heard today. Thanks. You made my day.

Just in hopes you want to listen (I doubt it but I also hope I'm wrong): there are characters in the series who are obviously sexist. Bonart, for example, or some of the kings. But Geralt, while being a fond of ladies, has never shown any sign of sexism. And heterosexuality, I must point out, is not equal to sexism. The Witcher at the same time represents a mix of middle ages and the beginning of industrialization - and relations between genders were quite different at those times. And, again, author never writes something that can be interpreted as "Yea! Burn those witches, they're unclean satanic bitches, as all the females are!" and presented as author's thought. Some characters seem to share this point of view, and this point of view was born not from nothing - historical process (politics, wars, religion etc.) was shaping things this way for more then three millenia - as it is in Witcher's World either. You can stick a "SEXIST" label on anyone or anything you want, but being sexist and describing sexism are not the same thing. At all. This way we can mark as sexist anything - thus fighting windmills.

Blah. Blah. Blah. If women cannot be Witchers then its sexist (ie discriminating against women). Also, the existence of sexist characters doesn't make the game/book/whatever sexist unless its being condoned. Not my point at all.

Also, I looked it up and its seems women can be Witchers. I don't know all of the details but I'm not sure why you think its wrong. It's seem like protagonist's shoes could be filled just as well by a women. However, the source material is sexist in the same way as the game. See Geralt's sexual exploits.

 

[Rastrelly]

If women cannot be Witchers then its sexist

So go work as jet fighter pilot ))) Discussion is over.

 

[shadow skill]

I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.

Sexist?? LOL. Tell it to Milva, Yennifer, Ziri or dryads. Or Maeva. Hell, tell it to female part of wizard's council! The Witcher is sexist! The funniest thing I've heard today. Thanks. You made my day.

Just in hopes you want to listen (I doubt it but I also hope I'm wrong): there are characters in the series who are obviously sexist. Bonart, for example, or some of the kings. But Geralt, while being a fond of ladies, has never shown any sign of sexism. And heterosexuality, I must point out, is not equal to sexism. The Witcher at the same time represents a mix of middle ages and the beginning of industrialization - and relations between genders were quite different at those times. And, again, author never writes something that can be interpreted as "Yea! Burn those witches, they're unclean satanic bitches, as all the females are!" and presented as author's thought. Some characters seem to share this point of view, and this point of view was born not from nothing - historical process (politics, wars, religion etc.) was shaping things this way for more then three millenia - as it is in Witcher's World either. You can stick a "SEXIST" label on anyone or anything you want, but being sexist and describing sexism are not the same thing. At all. This way we can mark as sexist anything - thus fighting windmills.

Blah. Blah. Blah. If women cannot be Witchers then its sexist (ie discriminating against women). Also, the existence of sexist characters doesn't make the game/book/whatever sexist unless its being condoned. Not my point at all.

Also, I looked it up and its seems women can be Witchers. I don't know all of the details but I'm not sure why you think its wrong. It's seem like protagonist's shoes could be filled just as well by a women. However, the source material is sexist in the same way as the game. See Geralt's sexual exploits.

That's like saying that a novel that states that men cannot give birth is discriminating against men.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

snip

I'm so sorry I burst your bubble every time dude It must be annoying.

Please, tell us about that time that you burst someone's bubble.

Why do I need to you were there, you lived it. You lived it dude.

No silly, I meant in real life. Tell us more tales your victories against rapists/sexists/misogynists, and detailed accounts of how long you've been gaming, and how many female gamers you know IRL who can stomp male gamers, etc.

Are you insinuating I'm a liar?

All I'm saying is it's possible for a woman to beat up a bigger guy. There's no need to get all upset over it.

Plus I'm pretty sure most people on this forum talk about how long they have been gaming and suchlike since it's you know, a gaming forum.

I would never kill Batman, I love Batman.

Also I've never said I know loads of female gamers in real life who can stomp male gamers, ever. Please find a quote if you can.

I'll help you out here:

Last time I was at a friends of mine, he had also invited his female neighbours, who proceeded to give me and my mates a sound trashing in Mario Kart 64, both the racing and the battle mode, leaving us completely without a chance.
IN Super Smash Brothers 64 though....
They kicked everyone's ass from here to kingdom come, with me being the only one who managed to defeat them, due to me having way too much experience with that game.

That should be good enough as a story, right?

 

[PirateRose]

I know that for me when I first started getting into RPG games, I really threw all caution to the wind when it came to skills and stats. All I cared about was that I got to play a chick, interest in actually making a correct build came later, but even then I like how current RPGs are relaxing and simplifying builds. Growing up, every time I saw a game that let me play as a woman, it was an instant favorite of mine. Example: Tomb Raider, Soul Calibur, Oni.

I remember when they were advertising Fable III, I was freaked out because they advertised that dude so much, I thought they cut the female option out. Finally one of the devs in a interview said you could still pick female. Turned out the game sucked anyways, but yeah.

I almost didn't get the first Mass Effect because when I was looking over the E3 stuff back when it was first announced, I thought Bioware wasn't going to put in a female option. I nearly stopped looking into it, even when my boyfriend back then said there was no way they'd cut that out, until the image of N7 armor on a masked woman started circulating the web.


I do find it harder to get into games where I am restricted to a male lead. Assassins Creed comes to mind, I've heard such good things about the story and gameplay and I'm a fan of the history it explores, but I just couldn't get into it and lost interest quick. Deus Ex: Human Revolution too, but part of that can be blamed on the fact first person gives me major headaches. I've been encouraged by friends to check out the Witcher 2 also, the ultimate PC edition is on sale now at my local store for a really great price but I'm thinking, I want to play a chick. I tried doing a canon run of KOTOR1 and KOTOR2 once, playing KOTOR1 as male Revan. I didn't even get out of the apartment building on Taris. The character doesn't even have a voice there, 90% of the dialogue is the same, but I just lost interest.

It hasn't been entirely impossible, I have played games with male leads: Mario, Zelda, Chrono Trigger, Battlefield Bad Company(didn't have enough interest in picking up the second one though), and on Mass Effect 3 multiplayer I've had no problem doing the male characters. Usually they are the alien classes though. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.

And I can say, not all games with female leads or the option to, draw me in. Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw's gameplay just wasn't my style. Dungeon Siege 3's voice acting really put me off, Skyrim and Dark Souls I haven't touched since the month they came out but that could all be a fault of, I'm more of a sci-fi geek than a fantasy one (which can be another reason why I'm not picking up Witcher 2).

Overall, I have to say, a game that has a female lead or gives me the option tends to be much more interesting and engaging than ones that are no option, male lead.

 

[jehk]

That's like saying that a novel that states that men cannot give birth is discriminating against men.

That's pretty a silly thing to say. Witchers are fantasy. It's written by a person. The author was discriminating when he decided that Witchers cannot be women (which isn't even true from what I've read).

There is no discrimination when sex is differentiated during human development.