Well, there are games that tell the story of one specific character, and tell this story well. That's not a fault in itself.Smeatza said:As far as I'm concerned a lack of a character creation mode is a failing.
Forcing someone to play as the opposite gender is just one of thousands of ways to make it harder to empathise with your character/exclude potential players.
I think in some cases, but it isn't always a total turn-off. I love the Half-Life games, TF2, Kingdom Hearts, stuff like that. But Gears of War never really looked appealing to me, and I will freely state it's because the game comes across as a hypermasculine, testosterone-fueled, circle-jerk full of mindless monster-men with tumors for necks. It's less about the choice and more about the narrative, quality, characters, and atmosphere of the game. Normally I'm used to wading into more fetishized masculinity than I normally care to deal with in order to play the games I want to play, but GoW's ratio of hypermasculinity to everything else was just too far beyond my threshold. I just look at Marcus Fenix and I don't see any soul or character there. I see a lump of awkward, diseased muscles that looks like it was picked up out of a zoo and taught how to walk without dragging its knuckles on the ground.Mylinkay Asdara said:So here's my question: Do you find yourself not feeling a desire to play games that do not offer a male or female protagonist choice, the way others do i.e. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout 3/NV, Skyrim and so forth?
I think we were talking The Witcher, not TW2 (although Geralt is still central to the plot in TW2, so I don't see what the distinction is there).CloudAtlas said:The Witcher 2 might still not be the best example. Geralt is, in a way, perhaps only a secondary character to the story in the Witcher 2. One actor amongst many. He does tip events into the one or the other direction, sure, but is he really the hero of this story? He doesn't even care much about the course of events, can even refuse to fight the final battle, if you choose to play him that way.
See, I don't believe that calling something a "male power fantasy" is the same as calling it out specifically for marginalizing women (although I can see where that arguement comes from) - I think it's more about the perspective.Seneschal said:But to say one is "sick of it", as if The Witcher was exemplary of videogames that shun and marginalize women, is just misguided. Anyone who's paid attention to the narrative can see that.
You are of course correct, If the writer desires the main character be a specific gender for artistic purposes who am I to dispute that?CloudAtlas said:Well, there are games that tell the story of one specific character, and tell this story well. That's not a fault in itself.Smeatza said:As far as I'm concerned a lack of a character creation mode is a failing.
Forcing someone to play as the opposite gender is just one of thousands of ways to make it harder to empathise with your character/exclude potential players.
Yes, well, I don't know, maybe we just don't agree on semantics here. To me, a story does not pander to my "power fantasies" if my character just plays a comparably minor part in the overall events - if he is not actually powerful in that regard. To me, Geralt felt more like a broken man than a hero. On the other hand, you still get to save your damsel-in-distress, so... in the end, I don't know, I really don't. This game is, to me, quite hard to qualify regarding sexism and such.Raikas said:I think we were talking The Witcher, not TW2 (although Geralt is still central to the plot in TW2, so I don't see what the distinction is there).CloudAtlas said:The Witcher 2 might still not be the best example. Geralt is, in a way, perhaps only a secondary character to the story in the Witcher 2. One actor amongst many. He does tip events into the one or the other direction, sure, but is he really the hero of this story? He doesn't even care much about the course of events, can even refuse to fight the final battle, if you choose to play him that way.
I don't know, maybe the ladies don't mind hearing that the dudes would welcome more and better female characters too.Mr.Squishy said:I know I as a dude have basically no business replying here, but, well,I just wanted to say that I too crave more - and better - female main characters.
O____o The Witcher is based on a book series, y'know. Geralt is rather adequately represented in Witcher 1 (minus memory) and he IS a character. It would be just strange and simply wrong from setting perspective to make a possibility to play The Witcher as a female character. Because females cannot mutate into witchers adequately, y'know.jehk said:It's really depends. Some male protagonists are nothing but surrogates for the male power fantasy. So sick of it. The Witcher is a perfect example.Mylinkay Asdara said:Do you find yourself not feeling a desire to play games that do not offer a male or female protagonist choice, the way others do i.e. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout 3/NV, Skyrim and so forth?
It's all about finding someone I can relate to regardless of gender.
The Walking Dead is a great counter example. Lee was a great male protagonist.
I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.Rastrelly said:O____o The Witcher is based on a book series, y'know. Geralt is rather adequately represented in Witcher 1 (minus memory) and he IS a character. It would be just strange and simply wrong from setting perspective to make a possibility to play The Witcher as a female character. Because females cannot mutate into witchers adequately, y'know.jehk said:It's really depends. Some male protagonists are nothing but surrogates for the male power fantasy. So sick of it. The Witcher is a perfect example.Mylinkay Asdara said:Do you find yourself not feeling a desire to play games that do not offer a male or female protagonist choice, the way others do i.e. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout 3/NV, Skyrim and so forth?
It's all about finding someone I can relate to regardless of gender.
The Walking Dead is a great counter example. Lee was a great male protagonist.
Sexist?? LOL. Tell it to Milva, Yennifer, Ziri or dryads. Or Maeva. Hell, tell it to female part of wizard's council! The Witcher is sexist! The funniest thing I've heard today. Thanks. You made my day.jehk said:I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.
Blah. Blah. Blah. If women cannot be Witchers then its sexist (ie discriminating against women). Also, the existence of sexist characters doesn't make the game/book/whatever sexist unless its being condoned. Not my point at all.Rastrelly said:Sexist?? LOL. Tell it to Milva, Yennifer, Ziri or dryads. Or Maeva. Hell, tell it to female part of wizard's council! The Witcher is sexist! The funniest thing I've heard today. Thanks. You made my day.jehk said:I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.
Just in hopes you want to listen (I doubt it but I also hope I'm wrong): there are characters in the series who are obviously sexist. Bonart, for example, or some of the kings. But Geralt, while being a fond of ladies, has never shown any sign of sexism. And heterosexuality, I must point out, is not equal to sexism. The Witcher at the same time represents a mix of middle ages and the beginning of industrialization - and relations between genders were quite different at those times. And, again, author never writes something that can be interpreted as "Yea! Burn those witches, they're unclean satanic bitches, as all the females are!" and presented as author's thought. Some characters seem to share this point of view, and this point of view was born not from nothing - historical process (politics, wars, religion etc.) was shaping things this way for more then three millenia - as it is in Witcher's World either. You can stick a "SEXIST" label on anyone or anything you want, but being sexist and describing sexism are not the same thing. At all. This way we can mark as sexist anything - thus fighting windmills.
So go work as jet fighter pilot ))) Discussion is over.jehk said:If women cannot be Witchers then its sexist
That's like saying that a novel that states that men cannot give birth is discriminating against men.jehk said:Blah. Blah. Blah. If women cannot be Witchers then its sexist (ie discriminating against women). Also, the existence of sexist characters doesn't make the game/book/whatever sexist unless its being condoned. Not my point at all.Rastrelly said:Sexist?? LOL. Tell it to Milva, Yennifer, Ziri or dryads. Or Maeva. Hell, tell it to female part of wizard's council! The Witcher is sexist! The funniest thing I've heard today. Thanks. You made my day.jehk said:I'm well aware of how sexist the source material is.
Just in hopes you want to listen (I doubt it but I also hope I'm wrong): there are characters in the series who are obviously sexist. Bonart, for example, or some of the kings. But Geralt, while being a fond of ladies, has never shown any sign of sexism. And heterosexuality, I must point out, is not equal to sexism. The Witcher at the same time represents a mix of middle ages and the beginning of industrialization - and relations between genders were quite different at those times. And, again, author never writes something that can be interpreted as "Yea! Burn those witches, they're unclean satanic bitches, as all the females are!" and presented as author's thought. Some characters seem to share this point of view, and this point of view was born not from nothing - historical process (politics, wars, religion etc.) was shaping things this way for more then three millenia - as it is in Witcher's World either. You can stick a "SEXIST" label on anyone or anything you want, but being sexist and describing sexism are not the same thing. At all. This way we can mark as sexist anything - thus fighting windmills.
Also, I looked it up and its seems women can be Witchers. I don't know all of the details but I'm not sure why you think its wrong. It's seem like protagonist's shoes could be filled just as well by a women. However, the source material is sexist in the same way as the game. See Geralt's sexual exploits.
I'll help you out here:Moonlight Butterfly said:Are you insinuating I'm a liar?Aaron Sylvester said:No silly, I meant in real life. Tell us more tales your victories against rapists/sexists/misogynists, and detailed accounts of how long you've been gaming, and how many female gamers you know IRL who can stomp male gamers, etc.Moonlight Butterfly said:Why do I need to you were there, you lived it. You lived it dude.Aaron Sylvester said:Please, tell us about that time that you burst someone's bubble.Moonlight Butterfly said:I'm so sorry I burst your bubble every time dude It must be annoying.Aaron Sylvester said:snip
All I'm saying is it's possible for a woman to beat up a bigger guy. There's no need to get all upset over it.
Plus I'm pretty sure most people on this forum talk about how long they have been gaming and suchlike since it's you know, a gaming forum.
I would never kill Batman, I love Batman.
Also I've never said I know loads of female gamers in real life who can stomp male gamers, ever. Please find a quote if you can.
That's pretty a silly thing to say. Witchers are fantasy. It's written by a person. The author was discriminating when he decided that Witchers cannot be women (which isn't even true from what I've read).shadow skill said:That's like saying that a novel that states that men cannot give birth is discriminating against men.
Yeah sure, I just don't know any female gamers irl (although I know plenty over the net), trying to use facebook to make some more friends with similar interests in my area though.Calibanbutcher said:snip